i feel a good width for searing light would be about that of an orc so that if 2 creatures were standing somewhat close together side by side they would both be hit. Wider than that and it would probably be too much, and less than that it becomes a crazy trick shot. The ideal would be to hit three creatures who are kinda close together without focusing so much on the clerics own positioning that the health totals of the party are forgotten through too much attention to the current task. that sounded wordy....
Edit: Also, as you said you would looking at feats, since it looks like we are going to get (off the top of my head) err 7 feat choices, it does make sense for any feat past number 3 to be a modifier for 1 power. at 4 or higher it would make sense to modify 2 or 3 powers to have more of an impact on our characters and to be a meaningful choice. This lets of have some options as to which powers we want to use and don't feel stuck in a binary choice dictating 2 of our encounter slots.
a good example would be a pick between initiate of the sun: all radiant powers gain 20 magnitude
or initiate of the flame: all fire powers gain 20 magnitude.
This way we could slot the power of our choice with feeling that i must use this one in order to improve the other. This choice would also have some impact if there were mobs that had some protection to either fire or radiant damage.
there are plenty of examples of cw feats that affect multiple powers
possibility:
dc brawler,i like to mix it up: all powers have 20 less range ( minimum 15 or 20) and the dc gains 100 defence and 200 power.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I have said that the Arbiter is "good enough" for solo play, except that the feats really need reworking (and the primary abilities, of course, but that's not really Cleric-specific).
I will be making a separate post about the feats later, but my concern right now is about the role of the Arbiter as a DPS in group content, and why any group would want a DPS Cleric if a "real" DPS class is available. Yes, I do see the potential benefit of the Arbiter being able to provide some emergency healing, but assuming it is not needed, what do we have ?
Group content typically involves either long single target fights ("boss"), or shorter fights against groups of weaker enemies ("trash"). The problem with trash fights is that the Cleric's AoE powers are pretty weak. The problem with boss fights is that in long fights, the Arbiter's divinity management becomes a real issue. This is not an issue when playing solo, as you can usually finish the fights before running out of Divinity, but for longer fight the Arbiter's DPS drops due to the need to focus on restoring divinity.
Now, I have only have a very limited opportunity to try the Arbiter in group content, but those of you who have had a proper chance to try it - does it reach the goal of providing similar DPS as other DPSers?
I think Arbiter is for SOLO play. Like today with DO spec. What we need absolutly is a REAL ROLE in HEALING. No other class sholud be better than DC in heal. We have no power that cancel resurrect sickness, no power to reanimate allies.... we need to be HEALER and not healers like other classes..... i hope...
> @midental#5256 said: > I think Arbiter is for SOLO play. Like today with DO spec. What we need absolutly is a REAL ROLE in HEALING. No other class sholud be better than DC in heal. We have no power that cancel resurrect sickness, no power to reanimate allies.... we need to be HEALER and not healers like other classes..... i hope...
I respectfully but firmly disagree with the notion that DO (or any spec) exists or should exist primarily for solo play in this game. Solo content is so easy that any character in any spec with the minimal expected equipment for the area can do the job.
Even in the current version of the game, DO DC is actually a viable party DPS (partly because it murders trash on its own, partly because stacking party buffs allow it to kill bosses before Avatar wears off).
Pigeonholing Arbiter into a solo role would be awful and a huge disservice to everyone who enjoys having a dedicated DPS option as a Cleric.
Well, that's not how it is supposed to be. It has been stated very clearly that every DPS character is supposed to be viable in group content - and that includes the Arbiter DOS build.
My worry is, however, that it feels to me that Arbiters are inferior to other DPSers in group content, but as I said, I have only had limited chances to test the Arbiter out in groups, so I was wondering how others felt it performed.
Hoping for improvements...
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited March 2019
I have been somewhat critical of some of the changes in Mod 16, in particular those that affect my favourite class, the Cleric.
One of the things that I don't like is a certain loss of flexibility - all Clerics will end up more-or-less alike....but there is one nice side-effect.
Previously a DO/DPS build for solo play required quite different stats than an AC/Powershare build for group play. In effect, many DCs wanted to have two separate sets of gears and enchants - usually a high-crit/high-arpen build for solo play and a high-power build for powersharing. The stats differed, as did the "optimal" weapon enchants.
(yes, yes, I know you could use the AC build for solo play as well, but it was not optimal).
With Mod 16 however, the need to have two separate sets of gear goes away. Power, Hit Points and Crit are useful stats for any Cleric build. Yes, a Devout heal-focused build has less need for ArPen, and could put those points into Power, but that's about it.
No need to carry around two sets of weapons or two sets of armors - just get one good set and use that everywhere.
Is it so wrong to think that a class has a specific role as it happens in D & D? The cleric heals and at the limit helps the group, the warrior does damage etc. etc. I do not think it's so bad to have very different roles and not characters who know how to do everything ..... that then everything also means well? Why do not I know if in endgame groups everyone will want a DPS DO as DPS or will they prefer those who have specific paths for DPS?
I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Yea, I don't like the idea of being a Healbot. I didn't like it back at the beginning and I don't like it today.
sure, I got my "Miracle Healer" set way back when that was still a thing....but that doesn't mean I liked it.
> @pitshade said: > I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
Agreed; I don’t recall having healbot Cleric. Many variations of the class had limited or no healing ability, even among non-evil characters. Some were heavy artillery spellcasters, some front-line melee, and some a mix of both.
Wanting to be a healing Cleric isn’t a bad thing, but wanting to marginalize a DPS path for Cleric is.
> I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
Agreed; I don’t recall having healbot Cleric. Many variations of the class had limited or no healing ability, even among non-evil characters. Some were heavy artillery spellcasters, some front-line melee, and some a mix of both.
Wanting to be a healing Cleric isn’t a bad thing, but wanting to marginalize a DPS path for Cleric is.
One of my biggest problems isn't so much that the path for DPS cleric is being marginalized, it's that if you don't want to be a healbot, it's the ONLY other option. I was pretty upset when I read @asterdahl 's response to playing Devout.... "Have you tried Arbiter?" The solution to not wanting to play heals shouldn't be "play dps". And considering the class options for DPS, if I *wanted* to play DPS, I wouldn't choose a cleric to do it.
I have been really holding myself back from giving too much feedback on the changes, since I'm really resistant to changes and I wanted to give myself time to adjust and really try the new mechanics before hating it on the basis of it "not being m15".
What I can say is that I'm still not a fan after running through the endgame dungeon a few times. One, the Lillend pet needs to be looked at. I put up exactly 0 heal spells and did more than 9 million healing with Lillend and Holy Avenger. If I'm going to be relegated to being a healbot, my job shouldn't be made irrelevant by a pet that's tossed out like candy during Simril.
I don't want to have to be reactive- staring at health bars until it's finally my time to cast a bastion. I tried being proactive, and slotting astral shield, oh boy. I'm not a fan of the tiny AoE that covers. It needs to be far larger, since I'm sacrificing mobility to be able to channel it. Cancelling it needs to be something other than casting something else or dodging, which has been mentioned but I also would like to second. On live, I am always doing something to help my team, whether it's buffing damage, building divinity (and incidental heals by tossing astral seal on every elite mob), throwing out divine DG to debuff mobs and heal a bit, or casting my daily, artifact or using my mount power. I had so much to do, and part of the satisfaction of finishing a dungeon was knowing that I had a perfect rotation. There's nothing of the sort now; I feel like I could fall asleep at the keyboard in the newest dungeon in the game and no one would really notice.
I think that the biggest QoL change the devs could make for Clerics that are used to buffing is a more proactive role. That would help make our characters still FEEL the same even if our role is different than before. Currently, I feel like the character I spent 6 years building is gone, replaced by something that is not only foreign, but boring to play.
I think that the biggest QoL change the devs could make for Clerics that are used to buffing is a more proactive role. That would help make our characters still FEEL the same even if our role is different than before. Currently, I feel like the character I spent 6 years building is gone, replaced by something that is not only foreign, but boring to play.
I think this is really good feedback. For some players, filling the time between heals with DPS rotations will suffice; others will miss buffing regardless.
Personally I found AC DC to be very active in terms of actions performed, and there is a certain satisfaction in feeling both busy and impactful. On the other hand, I find that same rotation to be easy to the point that you can almost Facebook it in. There isn't much strategy beyond the initial pull (for groups coordinating buffs on bosses to max effect); it's all about reasonably intelligent positioning and maximum uptime from that point on, and for this player that means a quick onset of boredom. Not that DO is completely different, but not having to hit Anointed Army every 5 seconds while maintaining BtS and Exalt leaves more time to deal a bit of damage.
For better or worse, the AC DC play style is a confirmed casualty of the new design. The closest you'll get is using much more modest buff/debuff powers occasionally. I really enjoy being able to use powers frequently, regardless of class, but I'm hoping that I'll find the tradeoff to be worthwhile when the changes hit live. My impressions of gameplay on Preview historically do not match up very well with what I feel when I get to play after launch.
It's so funny: there never was enough DCs in this game, but when this mode comes out there will be too many of them.. even after a lot of (near)endgame DCs leave.
I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
The true classic redbox DnD cleric was a fighter, but strictly worse in almost every way until level 2. At level 2, they were a Fighter (but strictly worse in almost every way) who could cast a healing spell once a day.
They got better at healing and got more things to do through the years, but in general you were either stocking up on healing spells or you were being a less-good-Wizard and you had to choose, at the start of the day, if you wanted to be "the wizard but worse" or if you wanted to do the only thing nobody else in the party could do.
After decades of this, D20 happend, when they added the ability to drop other spells for Heals, and made the other spells so strong that nobody ever wanted the cleric to heal because healing was a waste of spell slots that could wreck encounters and Wand Of Cure Whatever Wounds were universally available and cost pennies per charge.
In 4E they finally fixed it so that Clerics could heal *and* do other things well, in a way that didn't let the Clerics also do everyone else's jobs better than they did. But that's *decades* past the "classic DnD".
I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
The true classic redbox DnD cleric was a fighter, but strictly worse in almost every way until level 2. At level 2, they were a Fighter (but strictly worse in almost every way) who could cast a healing spell once a day.
They got better at healing and got more things to do through the years, but in general you were either stocking up on healing spells or you were being a less-good-Wizard and you had to choose, at the start of the day, if you wanted to be "the wizard but worse" or if you wanted to do the only thing nobody else in the party could do.
After decades of this, D20 happend, when they added the ability to drop other spells for Heals, and made the other spells so strong that nobody ever wanted the cleric to heal because healing was a waste of spell slots that could wreck encounters and Wand Of Cure Whatever Wounds were universally available and cost pennies per charge.
In 4E they finally fixed it so that Clerics could heal *and* do other things well, in a way that didn't let the Clerics also do everyone else's jobs better than they did. But that's *decades* past the "classic DnD".
You have to remember that "classic DnD" does not equate to 1970s content for the majority of people. For example, if I were to talk about playing D&D as a kid, that would be 2E and 3E. 2E in particular was a hodge-podge of anything-goes, limited only by the number of variant source books and/or the imagination at your disposal.
By Classic I meant 1st Edition primarily though my first rules set was the Original 3 booklets. In our groups Clerics tended to be the second most powerful class after Magic User and while some healing spells would be slotted, it was never seen as the primary function of the class. My favorite spell was Spiritual Hammer IIRC not Cure Light, etc...
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
The 3rd hit of Lance of Faith has the same cast as mod15 - that is, a longer cast with a bigger lance - but now it does not have the AoE effect on it. Can we have the AoE back, even if at the same magnitude? Or, at least, make the 3rd hit at same animation speed as the previous two, so you don't make a longer hit animation for nothing?
Searing Light still does not hit any enemies except those in a direct line between you and the target, it does not hit past the target and sometimes only hits the target enemy. (Couldn't it work like the classic SL interactions, where the line in front of you was as a very large line, or, an explosion that damage mobs around the target hit?) After the update my slotted powers have resetted to the general ones. I don't know if its just a test server thing but its worth noting.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited March 2019
About the Arbiter feats.
I had promised a long post about the feats...here it is.
As I have said before, I don’t like that feats are paired up. This was a big complaint regarding the boons - sometimes you had to choose one of two “good” feats, where you really wanted both (leading to annoyance) or pick one of two “bad” feats (where you felt like you had been wasting your time getting to that point).
Ideally I would just like a pool of 10 feats, where you could pick any 5 you wanted, but I may be too optimistic asking for that, so, assuming that we are stuck with having to choose, I wanted to offer my thoughts on pairs of feats.
Basically there should be some reason to how the feats are paired together, and ideally they should support different builds or playstyles.
For example something like:
If you want to improve your attacks versus single targets, pick feat A, but if you want better AoE attacks, pick feat B.
If you want “emergency healing” pick feat A, if you want better DPS, pick feat B.
If you want better performance in solo play, pick feat A, if you want better performance in groups, pick feat B.
This also encourages people to have different DPS loadouts, say one for solo play and another for groups, or one for trash and another for bosses.
We had some good examples of this with the boons in the past, like getting either a healing or a DPS effect.
Moreover, there should not be any bad pairs of feats, where both choices are more-or-less useless.
Before I start with the feats...I have one question. We have two Encounters that do Fire damage and four that do Radiant damage. Is there a reason for that discrepancy? Why not 3/3 ?
So, about the feats:
First pair:
Piercing Light This feat feels very odd. First, it is bad to lock you into two powers, so to speak. If you don’t want to use one of them for some reason, the feat is worthless. In my case I do not like Searing Light, because of the general unwillingness of enemies to line up in a straight line. The second issue is that Lance of Faith generates orange pips, so after that you would want to cast a power that consumes those (like Sunburst or FF), not a power like Searing light that consumes yellow pips.
Lightspeed I need to choose between Lance of Faith and Scattering Light, as they are of the same type. However, Scattering Light is inferior as an At-will. Yes, it does have a small AoE effect, but the damage is insignificant. So, not using Scattering light means this feat is useless too. Also, after using Scattering light, to build up orange pips, you would want to use a power that consumed those, like Sunburst or FF.
So, first pair has two useless feats.
Now, I am ok with having to choose between feats that depend on Lance of Faith and Scattering Light, as I have to choose between those At-Wills anyhow. I would just like the effects to be more generic, like “...has a chance to make your next encounter power have a 100% crit chance.” Or “...has a chance to make your next encounter power consume X% less divinity”. At any rate, something generic that is useful, no matter which powers you want to use.
Now, as the first pair of feats basically makes you choose between the two Radiant at-wills, I think it would be appropriate to have a another pair of feats that makes you choose between the two Burning at-wills in the same way.
Second pair:
Tipping Scales This feat is pretty useful for group play, where divinity management can become a real issue (in solo play you can typically finish fights before you run out of divinity). I consider this a good feat.
Heavy Sun This feat is pretty much required to make Sun Burst usable at all in group play. Sun burst is great in solo play, in particular at the lowest level .. In fact, I would consider it critical to get through the first few levels. The knockback is only an annoyance in group play, which is where you would want Heavy Sun. So, this is a good feat too. (Although there is an issue.. The description says it adds additional burning judgement stacks, but Sun Burst adds Radiant judgement).
So, you have two good feats, both of which you would want to use in group play, but you are forced to pick one. This goes right against my suggestions on how to pair feats up to support different playstyles or situations. In other words, the feats are good, but the fact that they are paired together is illogical.
Third pair:
Mendicant’s Judgement This feat was way, way overpowered, but now it is somewhat useless. The thing is, if Arbiter is using Bastion, it is typically as an emergency heal...and in that case, extra pips are not that useful. It would be better to have some bonus that was relevant to healing.
Radiant Swordbreaker With a heal-specific feat paired against this one, it would make sense for this to be a DPS-boosting or a debuffing one. The problem is that this feat requires you to use two Radiant powers, which completely locks you down there, but because of pip management you just would not be casting BtS while Geas is active. If this feat has a point, I totally fail to see it.
My suggestion, have a feat the improves the AoE effect of some encounter power, as that is sorely lacking. This would offer an appropriate choice opposite a heal-themed one. If you could make Chains actually useful for example, that would be the optimal choice...it is pretty much pointless at the moment.
Fourth pair.
Smoldering Light (see below)
Rising Light Those feats are useful, but both kind of….meh. It doesn’t really matter so much which one you pick, so the choice is not very meaningful. A hard choice would have been like one feat that boosted AP gain versus one that boosted divinity gain.
Fifth pair:
Burning Patch If you want to use Flame Strike instead of Hammer of Fate, this feat is OK.
Critical sun I really do not like the mechanism of Celestial Prominence, which makes this feat kind-of useless to me … I’ll stick with Guardian of Faith as the Radiant daily.
Again, the last pair of feats has the issue that they only apply to specific powers, and if you don't use either, the feats are utterly pointless.
Could you pls tell me how im i supposed to survive vs PALA's instant damage? if they have full divinity, they can one shot me FOUR times in a row. Almost instant and then stay behind a shield.
Could you pls tell me how to survive vs GF GAMAGE AND CONTROL ???? Bull charge - charges me from half of the map dealing 100k? Having a SHIELD THROW every 12 SECONDS that stund me for 4 SECONDS. Anvil does 150-200k, DAily one shots me/
You said we have to be balanced damage wise????
Well, what im i supposed to be being as DPS cleric with my defence in PVP ??? I have absolutely NOTHING to avoid any damage, nor control something so i can make damage.
I mean Pala and GF can STAY behind their shield MOST of the time BETWEEN their attacks which one shot me. And THEY ALMOST LOOSE nothing of their HP.
I mean u have nurfed our Bastion to the GROUND. I have no SHIELD, i have NOTHING to protect myself, my Bastion costs a FORTUNE and heals for 50-70k ?????
Pffft, something has to be addressed seriously here....
I realized that Conflag was indeed updated to bring 2 pips per use. The only thing i'm no so sold on is that it cost 1.8sec to get 2 pips when sacred flame gets 2 pips in 1.2sec (according to tool tip) and now you might say that is only technically a .6 second difference but both lance and sacred flame both have .6 second casts so that is an extra at will plus an extra pip which is critical for an arbiter not to mention over time the extra DPS that will stack. Maybe get that animation down to 1.5 or severely improve the damage to equal 3 sacred at wills with an AoE effect so you get the damage and then u trade off speed of pip gain vs AoE effect on the damage
The way the arbiter is setting up to me especially in boss fights or stronger mobs is
use lance to fill fire - cast FF - get 1 yellow
if up "tip the scale" with DG to fill yellow - pray
use lance to fill fire - cast FF - get 1 yellow
the thing is there is no real viable radiant spell to compliment FF that is where i'm hoping the AOE comes into play
increase the radius of Daunting Light to that of Live Chains + increase the magnitude 50-100 or give us something new altogether
My Alt character is a Ranger and i always hated (from a cleric point of view) how the ranger class never really had circles for their spells like thorned roots just cast instant AoE damage to whatever was around while the cleric feels like everything is a circle or has to be aimed etc. Part of the problem of a Cleric keeping up in DPS is it cant compete with the instant cast times and damage of other classes. I cant tell you how many times i've went to cast a fully empowered daunting on a target and wait for the animation to have my friends with insta dmg moves kill it before my cast time. Like "if i had 5 AD for every time that happened i'd be riding on a legendary mount" kind of thing. Basically a live chains in divinity mode (cast time wise) is what i'm hoping for. Of course i want more lol (like lance to fill 2 pips) but i'm trying to keep balance of classes in mind. please consider the cast times!!! FF is great cuz its relatively instant with no circle to lay down and then wait for a cast animation you can have a 10,000 magnitude spell but if it takes 5 sec to cast everything will be dead and u will do 0 dps
Could you pls tell me how im i supposed to survive vs PALA's instant damage? if they have full divinity, they can one shot me FOUR times in a row. Almost instant and then stay behind a shield.
Could you pls tell me how to survive vs GF GAMAGE AND CONTROL ???? Bull charge - charges me from half of the map dealing 100k? Having a SHIELD THROW every 12 SECONDS that stund me for 4 SECONDS. Anvil does 150-200k, DAily one shots me/
You said we have to be balanced damage wise????
Well, what im i supposed to be being as DPS cleric with my defence in PVP ??? I have absolutely NOTHING to avoid any damage, nor control something so i can make damage.
I mean Pala and GF can STAY behind their shield MOST of the time BETWEEN their attacks which one shot me. And THEY ALMOST LOOSE nothing of their HP.
I mean u have nurfed our Bastion to the GROUND. I have no SHIELD, i have NOTHING to protect myself, my Bastion costs a FORTUNE and heals for 50-70k ?????
Pffft, something has to be addressed seriously here....
This problem is usually solved by scaling damage output with survivability as inverses, but in this game there seems to be a serious fear of reducing damage output for tanky types. Probably because of the extremely strange way they've decided threat should be based on damage.
On a related note while I don't dislike the judgement mechanic, the entire concept of requiring one class to build up damage potential over time while other classes do not need to do so creates an inherent imbalance, especially visible in pvp. Even if the end potential DPS is the same, the classes will never be able to be completely balanced in actual DPS output since time IS a factor. It's exactly the same problem DoT heavy classes have had for ages now and why burst damage has been King. Why take 5 minutes to kill a boss with class A when class B can do the same damage in 2 minutes?
@alfalolz bro i've read every one of you PVP suggestions man and i feel really bad because you seem like a dedicated pvp cleric and there arent too many of those. i truly feel your pain cuz my GF and SW buddies on Live love to gang up and do everything and then some in that video lol. I hope that when its pvp time (mod 17?) that they reach out to you as a tester cuz you bring up very valid points that i have said to my buddies on live - we have 0 shot at 1v1 lol.
Honestly Asterdahl my whole suggestion for PVP when you guys get there...
plz plz plz make it its own tree. keep it seperate from pve builds i think its a waste of time to think u can make something that will work in the pve world and pvp world that truly is "balanced" - keep them seperate and a great idea would have encounters do different things in the pvp world like stun/root or do more or do less damage or even give a new encounter or two that is pvp exclusive so people will want to maybe try it out and play
but anyway alfa keep fighting the good fight bro your time will come you just gotta hang in there maybe just stick to group play once it goes live if the changes cant happen fast enough
Could you pls tell me how im i supposed to survive vs PALA's instant damage? if they have full divinity, they can one shot me FOUR times in a row. Almost instant and then stay behind a shield.
Could you pls tell me how to survive vs GF GAMAGE AND CONTROL ???? Bull charge - charges me from half of the map dealing 100k? Having a SHIELD THROW every 12 SECONDS that stund me for 4 SECONDS. Anvil does 150-200k, DAily one shots me/
You said we have to be balanced damage wise????
Well, what im i supposed to be being as DPS cleric with my defence in PVP ??? I have absolutely NOTHING to avoid any damage, nor control something so i can make damage.
I mean Pala and GF can STAY behind their shield MOST of the time BETWEEN their attacks which one shot me. And THEY ALMOST LOOSE nothing of their HP.
I mean u have nurfed our Bastion to the GROUND. I have no SHIELD, i have NOTHING to protect myself, my Bastion costs a FORTUNE and heals for 50-70k ?????
Pffft, something has to be addressed seriously here....
its no different for other classes and yeah paladin and gf need some serius tweaking in pvp
My feedback so far, from leveling my DC to level 79:
The class, running a healing spec, has been the most survivable thus far while soloing. Fairly slow at killing mobs, but to be expected from this build. I have reached the limit though for survivability with the level 79 mobs, since they did manage to beat me down. Which brings me to my next point.
The divinity "mechanic" is not good. It gets used up fairly quickly, far too quickly when soloing normal content. Then it takes way to long to recharge by using the tab key. Reminds me a LOT of old everquest 1, where you spent forever recharging in between fights. It's somewhat disappointing to see the devs repeating the sins of everquest, which was not a good game.
At least one of the at-wills needs to replenish divinity. Probably all of them, to be honest, or that one will be the goto, leaving the rest unused. It also needs to replenish fairly quickly, or the party will be in trouble in protracted boss fights.
I'm looking at some of the single target heal spells, and have no clue how you would use them in a chaotic boss fight, unless there's some macro to be provided. ( not a big fan of macroing btw ) In a game like WoW, you can click on the party member in the group list to target a heal spell - you cant do that in this game.
I join the list of people who do not approve of replacing a buff-centric playstyle with pure healing. You're going to lose a lot of players, since a healing role tends to be a lot more stressful on the player.
Thanks for the feedback, and taking the time to test the changes thoroughly on preview. In regards to single target heals, currently the only heal in this style is Intercession, and we're looking to make an improvement to this power that should make t easier to use, so please keep an eye on the patch notes.
In regards to switching from a buff-centric gameplay to healing. We are aware that some players may be frustrated enough by the changes to quit. I do hope that they (and you) will continue to watch the changes on preview, and try them out with an open mind. We're trying not to make healing too stressful for more casual content. That said, if you're really not into healing, I'd also recommend checking out the Arbiter path.
Sorry for lurking here as a dirty console player, but please keep in mind the difficulty of targeting other players for single-target heals on PS4 / xbox.
it would be nice if dps cl and heal cl for that matter excel in content vs undead or demons. not sure how that fits in classic DnD or if it does at all, but where is the ward undead/smite/cleanse/revive etc.. I think there is a hollow feeling because cl is missing a more general keystone of the archtype itself. the devs have left in the campaign boons that boost effectiveness vs certain types of mobs and the guild pve overloads? if so I think it would be a good addition and present some room for balancing of the playing field since there are so many undead and demons.
@asterdahl, thank you for the change to DL for devout. I don't know if it will be a staple of my rotation, but it is now something I can swap for when heals are less needed or instead of gears for mobs without feeling like I can't use it in case I need a heal. Also, I don't mind the change to bastion in Arbiter. Still feels decent to me.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
I think that the biggest QoL change the devs could make for Clerics that are used to buffing is a more proactive role. That would help make our characters still FEEL the same even if our role is different than before. Currently, I feel like the character I spent 6 years building is gone, replaced by something that is not only foreign, but boring to play.
So, how do you think they could make it feel more proactive? Give them some concrete suggestions. With the decision to lessen the amount of buffs flying around (which I agree with), the only thing I can think of is heal over time effects. Do you think more HoTs would accomplish the feel you describe?
I think that the biggest QoL change the devs could make for Clerics that are used to buffing is a more proactive role. That would help make our characters still FEEL the same even if our role is different than before. Currently, I feel like the character I spent 6 years building is gone, replaced by something that is not only foreign, but boring to play.
So, how do you think they could make it feel more proactive? Give them some concrete suggestions. With the decision to lessen the amount of buffs flying around (which I agree with), the only thing I can think of is heal over time effects. Do you think more HoTs would accomplish the feel you describe?
I haven't really stopped to consider the implications of what I'm about to suggest, so please take it with a grain of salt, but what if the Devout had a passive similar to Devotion Paladin's that granted a modest buff to targets hit by a (or specific) healing spell(s)? Something that would give players who enjoyed the AC DC play style something to monitor and aim to maintain uptime for even if active healing isn't particularly necessary.
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Edit: Also, as you said you would looking at feats, since it looks like we are going to get (off the top of my head) err 7 feat choices, it does make sense for any feat past number 3 to be a modifier for 1 power. at 4 or higher it would make sense to modify 2 or 3 powers to have more of an impact on our characters and to be a meaningful choice. This lets of have some options as to which powers we want to use and don't feel stuck in a binary choice dictating 2 of our encounter slots.
a good example would be a pick between
initiate of the sun: all radiant powers gain 20 magnitude
or initiate of the flame: all fire powers gain 20 magnitude.
This way we could slot the power of our choice with feeling that i must use this one in order to improve the other. This choice would also have some impact if there were mobs that had some protection to either fire or radiant damage.
there are plenty of examples of cw feats that affect multiple powers
possibility:
dc brawler,i like to mix it up: all powers have 20 less range ( minimum 15 or 20) and the dc gains 100 defence and 200 power.
I will be making a separate post about the feats later, but my concern right now is about the role of the Arbiter as a DPS in group content, and why any group would want a DPS Cleric if a "real" DPS class is available. Yes, I do see the potential benefit of the Arbiter being able to provide some emergency healing, but assuming it is not needed, what do we have ?
Group content typically involves either long single target fights ("boss"), or shorter fights against groups of weaker enemies ("trash"). The problem with trash fights is that the Cleric's AoE powers are pretty weak. The problem with boss fights is that in long fights, the Arbiter's divinity management becomes a real issue. This is not an issue when playing solo, as you can usually finish the fights before running out of Divinity, but for longer fight the Arbiter's DPS drops due to the need to focus on restoring divinity.
Now, I have only have a very limited opportunity to try the Arbiter in group content, but those of you who have had a proper chance to try it - does it reach the goal of providing similar DPS as other DPSers?
> I think Arbiter is for SOLO play. Like today with DO spec. What we need absolutly is a REAL ROLE in HEALING. No other class sholud be better than DC in heal. We have no power that cancel resurrect sickness, no power to reanimate allies.... we need to be HEALER and not healers like other classes..... i hope...
I respectfully but firmly disagree with the notion that DO (or any spec) exists or should exist primarily for solo play in this game. Solo content is so easy that any character in any spec with the minimal expected equipment for the area can do the job.
Even in the current version of the game, DO DC is actually a viable party DPS (partly because it murders trash on its own, partly because stacking party buffs allow it to kill bosses before Avatar wears off).
Pigeonholing Arbiter into a solo role would be awful and a huge disservice to everyone who enjoys having a dedicated DPS option as a Cleric.
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My worry is, however, that it feels to me that Arbiters are inferior to other DPSers in group content, but as I said, I have only had limited chances to test the Arbiter out in groups, so I was wondering how others felt it performed.
One of the things that I don't like is a certain loss of flexibility - all Clerics will end up more-or-less alike....but there is one nice side-effect.
Previously a DO/DPS build for solo play required quite different stats than an AC/Powershare build for group play. In effect, many DCs wanted to have two separate sets of gears and enchants - usually a high-crit/high-arpen build for solo play and a high-power build for powersharing. The stats differed, as did the "optimal" weapon enchants.
(yes, yes, I know you could use the AC build for solo play as well, but it was not optimal).
With Mod 16 however, the need to have two separate sets of gear goes away. Power, Hit Points and Crit are useful stats for any Cleric build. Yes, a Devout heal-focused build has less need for ArPen, and could put those points into Power, but that's about it.
No need to carry around two sets of weapons or two sets of armors - just get one good set and use that everywhere.
I do not think it's so bad to have very different roles and not characters who know how to do everything ..... that then everything also means well? Why do not I know if in endgame groups everyone will want a DPS DO as DPS or will they prefer those who have specific paths for DPS?
sure, I got my "Miracle Healer" set way back when that was still a thing....but that doesn't mean I liked it.
> I don't think any version of DnD has had Cleric relegated to healbot. The classic DnD cleric is in heavy armor with mace and shield, healing allies but also standing on the front line with weapon ready.
Agreed; I don’t recall having healbot Cleric. Many variations of the class had limited or no healing ability, even among non-evil characters. Some were heavy artillery spellcasters, some front-line melee, and some a mix of both.
Wanting to be a healing Cleric isn’t a bad thing, but wanting to marginalize a DPS path for Cleric is.
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I have been really holding myself back from giving too much feedback on the changes, since I'm really resistant to changes and I wanted to give myself time to adjust and really try the new mechanics before hating it on the basis of it "not being m15".
What I can say is that I'm still not a fan after running through the endgame dungeon a few times. One, the Lillend pet needs to be looked at. I put up exactly 0 heal spells and did more than 9 million healing with Lillend and Holy Avenger. If I'm going to be relegated to being a healbot, my job shouldn't be made irrelevant by a pet that's tossed out like candy during Simril.
I don't want to have to be reactive- staring at health bars until it's finally my time to cast a bastion. I tried being proactive, and slotting astral shield, oh boy. I'm not a fan of the tiny AoE that covers. It needs to be far larger, since I'm sacrificing mobility to be able to channel it. Cancelling it needs to be something other than casting something else or dodging, which has been mentioned but I also would like to second. On live, I am always doing something to help my team, whether it's buffing damage, building divinity (and incidental heals by tossing astral seal on every elite mob), throwing out divine DG to debuff mobs and heal a bit, or casting my daily, artifact or using my mount power. I had so much to do, and part of the satisfaction of finishing a dungeon was knowing that I had a perfect rotation. There's nothing of the sort now; I feel like I could fall asleep at the keyboard in the newest dungeon in the game and no one would really notice.
I think that the biggest QoL change the devs could make for Clerics that are used to buffing is a more proactive role. That would help make our characters still FEEL the same even if our role is different than before. Currently, I feel like the character I spent 6 years building is gone, replaced by something that is not only foreign, but boring to play.
Personally I found AC DC to be very active in terms of actions performed, and there is a certain satisfaction in feeling both busy and impactful. On the other hand, I find that same rotation to be easy to the point that you can almost Facebook it in. There isn't much strategy beyond the initial pull (for groups coordinating buffs on bosses to max effect); it's all about reasonably intelligent positioning and maximum uptime from that point on, and for this player that means a quick onset of boredom. Not that DO is completely different, but not having to hit Anointed Army every 5 seconds while maintaining BtS and Exalt leaves more time to deal a bit of damage.
For better or worse, the AC DC play style is a confirmed casualty of the new design. The closest you'll get is using much more modest buff/debuff powers occasionally. I really enjoy being able to use powers frequently, regardless of class, but I'm hoping that I'll find the tradeoff to be worthwhile when the changes hit live. My impressions of gameplay on Preview historically do not match up very well with what I feel when I get to play after launch.
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They got better at healing and got more things to do through the years, but in general you were either stocking up on healing spells or you were being a less-good-Wizard and you had to choose, at the start of the day, if you wanted to be "the wizard but worse" or if you wanted to do the only thing nobody else in the party could do.
After decades of this, D20 happend, when they added the ability to drop other spells for Heals, and made the other spells so strong that nobody ever wanted the cleric to heal because healing was a waste of spell slots that could wreck encounters and Wand Of Cure Whatever Wounds were universally available and cost pennies per charge.
In 4E they finally fixed it so that Clerics could heal *and* do other things well, in a way that didn't let the Clerics also do everyone else's jobs better than they did. But that's *decades* past the "classic DnD".
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Searing Light still does not hit any enemies except those in a direct line between you and the target, it does not hit past the target and sometimes only hits the target enemy. (Couldn't it work like the classic SL interactions, where the line in front of you was as a very large line, or, an explosion that damage mobs around the target hit?)
After the update my slotted powers have resetted to the general ones. I don't know if its just a test server thing but its worth noting.
I had promised a long post about the feats...here it is.
As I have said before, I don’t like that feats are paired up. This was a big complaint regarding the boons - sometimes you had to choose one of two “good” feats, where you really wanted both (leading to annoyance) or pick one of two “bad” feats (where you felt like you had been wasting your time getting to that point).
Ideally I would just like a pool of 10 feats, where you could pick any 5 you wanted, but I may be too optimistic asking for that, so, assuming that we are stuck with having to choose, I wanted to offer my thoughts on pairs of feats.
Basically there should be some reason to how the feats are paired together, and ideally they should support different builds or playstyles.
For example something like:
If you want to improve your attacks versus single targets, pick feat A, but if you want better AoE attacks, pick feat B.
If you want “emergency healing” pick feat A, if you want better DPS, pick feat B.
If you want better performance in solo play, pick feat A, if you want better performance in groups, pick feat B.
This also encourages people to have different DPS loadouts, say one for solo play and another for groups, or one for trash and another for bosses.
We had some good examples of this with the boons in the past, like getting either a healing or a DPS effect.
Moreover, there should not be any bad pairs of feats, where both choices are more-or-less useless.
Before I start with the feats...I have one question. We have two Encounters that do Fire damage and four that do Radiant damage. Is there a reason for that discrepancy? Why not 3/3 ?
So, about the feats:
First pair:
Piercing Light This feat feels very odd. First, it is bad to lock you into two powers, so to speak. If you don’t want to use one of them for some reason, the feat is worthless. In my case I do not like Searing Light, because of the general unwillingness of enemies to line up in a straight line. The second issue is that Lance of Faith generates orange pips, so after that you would want to cast a power that consumes those (like Sunburst or FF), not a power like Searing light that consumes yellow pips.
Lightspeed I need to choose between Lance of Faith and Scattering Light, as they are of the same type. However, Scattering Light is inferior as an At-will. Yes, it does have a small AoE effect, but the damage is insignificant. So, not using Scattering light means this feat is useless too. Also, after using Scattering light, to build up orange pips, you would want to use a power that consumed those, like Sunburst or FF.
So, first pair has two useless feats.
Now, I am ok with having to choose between feats that depend on Lance of Faith and Scattering Light, as I have to choose between those At-Wills anyhow. I would just like the effects to be more generic, like “...has a chance to make your next encounter power have a 100% crit chance.” Or “...has a chance to make your next encounter power consume X% less divinity”. At any rate, something generic that is useful, no matter which powers you want to use.
Now, as the first pair of feats basically makes you choose between the two Radiant at-wills, I think it would be appropriate to have a another pair of feats that makes you choose between the two Burning at-wills in the same way.
Second pair:
Tipping Scales This feat is pretty useful for group play, where divinity management can become a real issue (in solo play you can typically finish fights before you run out of divinity). I consider this a good feat.
Heavy Sun This feat is pretty much required to make Sun Burst usable at all in group play. Sun burst is great in solo play, in particular at the lowest level .. In fact, I would consider it critical to get through the first few levels. The knockback is only an annoyance in group play, which is where you would want Heavy Sun. So, this is a good feat too. (Although there is an issue.. The description says it adds additional burning judgement stacks, but Sun Burst adds Radiant judgement).
So, you have two good feats, both of which you would want to use in group play, but you are forced to pick one. This goes right against my suggestions on how to pair feats up to support different playstyles or situations. In other words, the feats are good, but the fact that they are paired together is illogical.
Third pair:
Mendicant’s Judgement This feat was way, way overpowered, but now it is somewhat useless. The thing is, if Arbiter is using Bastion, it is typically as an emergency heal...and in that case, extra pips are not that useful. It would be better to have some bonus that was relevant to healing.
Radiant Swordbreaker With a heal-specific feat paired against this one, it would make sense for this to be a DPS-boosting or a debuffing one. The problem is that this feat requires you to use two Radiant powers, which completely locks you down there, but because of pip management you just would not be casting BtS while Geas is active. If this feat has a point, I totally fail to see it.
My suggestion, have a feat the improves the AoE effect of some encounter power, as that is sorely lacking. This would offer an appropriate choice opposite a heal-themed one. If you could make Chains actually useful for example, that would be the optimal choice...it is pretty much pointless at the moment.
Fourth pair.
Smoldering Light (see below)
Rising Light Those feats are useful, but both kind of….meh. It doesn’t really matter so much which one you pick, so the choice is not very meaningful. A hard choice would have been like one feat that boosted AP gain versus one that boosted divinity gain.
Fifth pair:
Burning Patch If you want to use Flame Strike instead of Hammer of Fate, this feat is OK.
Critical sun I really do not like the mechanism of Celestial Prominence, which makes this feat kind-of useless to me … I’ll stick with Guardian of Faith as the Radiant daily.
Again, the last pair of feats has the issue that they only apply to specific powers, and if you don't use either, the feats are utterly pointless.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE,
Take a look at my video that we have tested vs pala and GF.
Could you pls tell me how im i supposed to survive vs PALA's instant damage? if they have full divinity, they can one shot me FOUR times in a row. Almost instant and then stay behind a shield.
Could you pls tell me how to survive vs GF GAMAGE AND CONTROL ???? Bull charge - charges me from half of the map dealing 100k? Having a SHIELD THROW every 12 SECONDS that stund me for 4 SECONDS. Anvil does 150-200k, DAily one shots me/
You said we have to be balanced damage wise????
Well, what im i supposed to be being as DPS cleric with my defence in PVP ??? I have absolutely NOTHING to avoid any damage, nor control something so i can make damage.
I mean Pala and GF can STAY behind their shield MOST of the time BETWEEN their attacks which one shot me. And THEY ALMOST LOOSE nothing of their HP.
I mean u have nurfed our Bastion to the GROUND. I have no SHIELD, i have NOTHING to protect myself, my Bastion costs a FORTUNE and heals for 50-70k ?????
Pffft, something has to be addressed seriously here....
The way the arbiter is setting up to me especially in boss fights or stronger mobs is
use lance to fill fire - cast FF - get 1 yellow
if up "tip the scale" with DG to fill yellow - pray
use lance to fill fire - cast FF - get 1 yellow
the thing is there is no real viable radiant spell to compliment FF
that is where i'm hoping the AOE comes into play
increase the radius of Daunting Light to that of Live Chains + increase the magnitude 50-100
or give us something new altogether
My Alt character is a Ranger and i always hated (from a cleric point of view) how the ranger class never really had circles for their spells like thorned roots just cast instant AoE damage to whatever was around while the cleric feels like everything is a circle or has to be aimed etc. Part of the problem of a Cleric keeping up in DPS is it cant compete with the instant cast times and damage of other classes. I cant tell you how many times i've went to cast a fully empowered daunting on a target and wait for the animation to have my friends with insta dmg moves kill it before my cast time. Like "if i had 5 AD for every time that happened i'd be riding on a legendary mount" kind of thing. Basically a live chains in divinity mode (cast time wise) is what i'm hoping for. Of course i want more lol (like lance to fill 2 pips) but i'm trying to keep balance of classes in mind. please consider the cast times!!! FF is great cuz its relatively instant with no circle to lay down and then wait for a cast animation you can have a 10,000 magnitude spell but if it takes 5 sec to cast everything will be dead and u will do 0 dps
just some more thoughts on the arbiter path.
This problem is usually solved by scaling damage output with survivability as inverses, but in this game there seems to be a serious fear of reducing damage output for tanky types. Probably because of the extremely strange way they've decided threat should be based on damage.
On a related note while I don't dislike the judgement mechanic, the entire concept of requiring one class to build up damage potential over time while other classes do not need to do so creates an inherent imbalance, especially visible in pvp. Even if the end potential DPS is the same, the classes will never be able to be completely balanced in actual DPS output since time IS a factor. It's exactly the same problem DoT heavy classes have had for ages now and why burst damage has been King. Why take 5 minutes to kill a boss with class A when class B can do the same damage in 2 minutes?
Honestly Asterdahl my whole suggestion for PVP when you guys get there...
plz plz plz make it its own tree. keep it seperate from pve builds i think its a waste of time to think u can make something that will work in the pve world and pvp world that truly is "balanced" - keep them seperate and a great idea would have encounters do different things in the pvp world like stun/root or do more or do less damage or even give a new encounter or two that is pvp exclusive so people will want to maybe try it out and play
but anyway alfa keep fighting the good fight bro your time will come you just gotta hang in there maybe just stick to group play once it goes live if the changes cant happen fast enough
Remove Bastion, give us shield back. Make it 10% defense or damage absorb a pip. So at 6 pips while in a shield we can absorb 60% incoming damage.
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