Paladin has been changed beyond recognition. None of the features I liked when I started playing exist anymore. No powershare, no meaningful Auras, no consistent Temp HP, no Feats orthogonal to the encounters. We got a mana pool for no reason at all.
Paladin is no longer the versatile class I used to play. It's a dumb tank. I have spent tens of hours trying to customize my build in terms of Feats, Items, Companions, etc. I have read many guides, and I have never followed one 100%, because I disagreed with the objectives of the author, or their reasoning. The fact that so many guides existed even for a tank class speaks volumes about the depth that was present in its design. ALL of that is gone. And it's not just gone from Paladin. The rampant dumbing-down of so many aspects of the game in Mod 16 means that Neverwinter is no longer addressed to adults who can make choices. I don't know who it is addressed to, but it's not me.
Almost of the specific feedback I wanted to give has been mentioned in other posts. The changes are bad. In fact, the changes are insulting. Having a class mechanic that reduces damage dealt by 30%? So that the run-of-the-mill Rogue who makes poor choices cannot out-DPS me in a PVE environment? Just to save the ego of some teenager who thought DPSing in Neverwinter is like DPSing in Counter Strike? This feature right here is a mark of utter failure: if you had *really* taken your time to "balance" classes, it would have never existed. You can't balance classes, or content. If you could, and if it *really* was a priority, it would have been already polished. There wouldn't be ridiculous battle logs all over the place.
No, this module is not about rebalancing. It is about drastically reducing the complexity of the game, such that it becomes accessible to kids spending their parents money on open-world FPS. I could live with having my character overhauled, but I can't live with the changing in philosophy of the entire game. By the way, speaking about a "completely new game" and how about "we will be accustomed to the changes over time" is also insulting marketingese, and please stop repeating it. There is nowhere in your life where you would be fine with such a thing. If I took your car, your laptop or anything that you own and have spent countless hours being comfortable with, and replaced it with an unrecognizable similar piece, you would be outraged. I am also outraged, and you didn't just take my laptop, you took my diary.
As a final comment, I only have one advice to give to you, @asterdahl , since you are a developer. Much wiser people in Software Engineering have tried your approach, overhauling the product overnight and telling the customer "they will get used to it eventually". Microsoft tried it with Internet Explorer 8. It was a disaster. The new Paladin is a disaster for the same reason. Instead of careful nerfs, you did what is well known as "Shotgun Debugging". I understand that you had problems handling the old complex classes, but the way you "fixed" the issue means that you are incapable of handling customers with complex objectives.
In mod 16, there will be kids all over the place. Live long and prosper.
PS. Just so that this post is constructive, here is a little piece of specific feedback that has been mentioned in the general thread but is especially relevant for Paladin. There are now two defensive stats, Defense and Deflect, with two opposing rolls. In order to get any bonus from the stat, you have to have enough to overcome the opposing roll. This is problematic. If I have 8k of stats to spend among Defense and Deflect, I will put all 8k of it into one stat; if I split it 4k & 4k, I run the risk that both stats end up lower than the opposing stats of the enemy, which makes me have no bonus at all. If the enemy has 6k ArPen and 6k Accuracy, as will be the case, there is only one way for me to build the character so I have some damage reduction. This poorly thought stat mechanic will be the root cause of all cookie cutter builds in Mod 16: there will be many stats, but gearing in a way that increases them all WILL PROVIDE DIMINISHING RETURNS to your gameplay. Games who want to encourage diversity have a diminishing return mechanic on stacking A SINGLE stat. Neverwinter goes completely against the traditional wisdom without any reason at all. There are deep design flaws all over the place, and this particular one isn't something you can tweak, unless there is no piece of equipment in the game that provides a different amount of Defense vs Deflect.
@asterdahl the biggest issue I have right now is that auras are supposed to be passives, making them "on daily" for some period of time defeats the point of even having them. I understand weakening or changing them compared to the auras we have now but making it to where you have to "proc" the aura makes them damned useless. There's so little point in slotting them because they won't be active a majority of the time, especially with the recovery/ap gain changes.
Next is an HP issue. On preview after a respec without boons I'm at about 275k, I then took all 20 HP boon levels (2k each so should be 40,000) and only ended up at something like 286k HP. I noticed that the first one only seemed to give maybe 1100. Also is it correct that no other "normal" feats are shown like toughness?
Also similar to the Auras, the feats just feel bad. None of them really seem to do...... well anything. Having them vs not having them feels like it makes no difference or such a small amount it doesn't matter. IMO these need to go back to the drawing board.
Lastly Divinity feels at least a bit slow even with the aura that boosts it.
I can honestly say when this goes live my pally will be retired. you have made the class horribly not fun, and that's the whole purpose of the game. not renewing my vip right now cause well, you are breaking the game.
4
lordaeolosMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
@asterdahl Myself and 2 other players paladins grouped up to test last night... 2 of us were not experiencing these one shots (in fact I leveled to 80 never having less than 75% health in any fight, the third was getting one shot on nearly every single mob in every zone while testing.
For those of us not getting one shot the mob damage cycles looked like: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 10 to 40k
For our teammate getting one shot the mob damage cycle looked like this: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 600k to 1.5m
Our stats point allocations were nearly identical, so to test we did the following:
Set all our feats to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Set all our boons to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Player three cleared all companion power slots: player 3 no longer experiencing one shots from every mob, and damage cycle looks like the players not experiencing crazy high burst from the mobs. We ended up having to stop there, so did not narrow down which companion slotted power might be the factor involved, I hope this helps.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
@asterdahl the biggest issue I have right now is that auras are supposed to be passives, making them "on daily" for some period of time defeats the point of even having them. I understand weakening or changing them compared to the auras we have now but making it to where you have to "proc" the aura makes them damned useless. There's so little point in slotting them because they won't be active a majority of the time, especially with the recovery/ap gain changes.
Next is an HP issue. On preview after a respec without boons I'm at about 275k, I then took all 20 HP boon levels (2k each so should be 40,000) and only ended up at something like 286k HP. I noticed that the first one only seemed to give maybe 1100. Also is it correct that no other "normal" feats are shown like toughness?
Also similar to the Auras, the feats just feel bad. None of them really seem to do...... well anything. Having them vs not having them feels like it makes no difference or such a small amount it doesn't matter. IMO these need to go back to the drawing board.
Lastly Divinity feels at least a bit slow even with the aura that boosts it.
About the HP, the preview build scales our characters based on content. So if you want to see how much HP you really have go to PE. If already in PE but still having lower than expected health then Ive no idea
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
@asterdahl Myself and 2 other players paladins grouped up to test last night... 2 of us were not experiencing these one shots (in fact I leveled to 80 never having less than 75% health in any fight, the third was getting one shot on nearly every single mob in every zone while testing.
For those of us not getting one shot the mob damage cycles looked like: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 10 to 40k
For our teammate getting one shot the mob damage cycle looked like this: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 600k to 1.5m
Our stats point allocations were nearly identical, so to test we did the following:
Set all our feats to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Set all our boons to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Player three cleared all companion power slots: player 3 no longer experiencing one shots from every mob, and damage cycle looks like the players not experiencing crazy high burst from the mobs. We ended up having to stop there, so did not narrow down which companion slotted power might be the factor involved, I hope this helps.
Great feedback, I also had a feeling it was a companion causing this. Companions are very broken at the moment. The Battlerager dwarf for example self heals for mind blowing numbers on every few hits. Im talking heals in the millions so in a similar way some other pet is causing a dmg taken increase on the player and boom, 1 shot. My own paladin hasent been killed yet on Preview
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
This power decreases incoming dmg by 20%, acts as a multiplier of "*0.8". However, it can't exceed the dmg reduction cap of 80%, therefor I would prefer if it would be changed to one of the two following alternatives:
1. Keep it as a "*0.8" multiplier, but let it exceed the dmg reduction cap of 80%, AT the cap the paladin would then take 16%, instead of 20% dmg. This would make it useful for Paladins of all Item Levels.
2. Change it to additive "+0.2". This would make it more powerful than it is right now (given you have more defense than the enemies have armor pen), but it would be somehow balanced because it can't exceed the 80% cap.
Test-details
Tested in Helm's Hold against a Legion Devil who deals the same amount of dmg with every hit. Legion Devil deals 284 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack. => 20% cap, with and without Absolution. Legion Devil deals 1210 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack. Legion Devil deals 968 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack. => 968/1210 = 0.8, multiplier.
Paladin has been changed beyond recognition. None of the features I liked when I started playing exist anymore. No powershare, no meaningful Auras, no consistent Temp HP, no Feats orthogonal to the encounters. We got a mana pool for no reason at all.
Paladin is no longer the versatile class I used to play. It's a dumb tank.
Thank you, you took the words right of my mouth. The Paladin in NW was unique, I haven't seen such in any other MMO yet. Now we have a (dumb) weak Tank and a (dumb) weak Healer. Who needs them?
I have spent tens of hours trying to customize my build in terms of Feats, Items, Companions, etc. ...
Fully agreed. I even used real money to become VIP and to buy items from the ZEN-Market. That's no big deal, I'll pay for good content.
Almost of the specific feedback I wanted to give has been mentioned in other posts. The changes are bad. In fact, the changes are insulting. Having a class mechanic that reduces damage dealt by 30%? ...
NW was more or less unique with the way the classes worked. We had many options to play our Characters. Lifesteal, being able to heal myself, was highly appreciated. My Characters haven't been OP. I still see myself as a casual player. With the Barovia and Primal Gear I had even fun pushing some of my smaller Chars thru (old) Dungeons. Though I have never been to the harder Dungeons yet and this dream died within the first hours playing at the Preview Server.
No, this module is not about rebalancing. It is about drastically reducing the complexity of the game, such that it becomes accessible to kids spending their parents money on open-world FPS. I could live with having my character overhauled, but I can't live with the changing in philosophy of the entire game. ...
I fully agree to this. Reducing the complexity of the game makes it more or less ready to be played on mobile phones. PW took the Devs away from NW, I guess the game doesn't really pay the bills anymore. So reducing complexity, rewriting code, will lead the game to a small team of Devs being able to handle it.
By the way, speaking about a "completely new game" and how about "we will be accustomed to the changes over time" is also insulting marketingese, and please stop repeating it. There is nowhere in your life where you would be fine with such a thing. If I took your car, your laptop or anything that you own and have spent countless hours being comfortable with, and replaced it with an unrecognizable similar piece, you would be outraged. I am also outraged, and you didn't just take my laptop, you took my diary..
Let's think of the game as a Porsche Turbo. It can get up to 300 km/h. So there is Speed Limits. All good. While some Limits are okay, taking away the Engine of the car isn't! So the Porsche (Paladin) looks pretty much the same, but instead having a powerful Turbo, there is some weak Engine implemented right now. Auras won't work as before, removing the LP protection made the former outstanding class to something one can see at any other MMO, a boring and weak Tank. No way I will play this!
As a final comment, I only have one advice to give to you, @asterdahl , since you are a developer. Much wiser people in Software Engineering have tried your approach, overhauling the product overnight and telling the customer "they will get used to it eventually". Microsoft tried it with Internet Explorer 8. It was a disaster. The new Paladin is a disaster for the same reason. Instead of careful nerfs, you did what is well known as "Shotgun Debugging". I understand that you had problems handling the old complex classes, but the way you "fixed" the issue means that you are incapable of handling customers with complex objectives.
Yes, yes and YES! And it's not just MS who failed so hard. It's a lot of Companies. Instead of listening to their Customers (us!), they decide what is best.
@asterdahl I am mad, I guess it shows. Though that's nothing personal. Mod 16 will take away something I called "fun." Some Guys in my Alliance already started their Math about the new Stats. That's them, I am not into such. I want easy fun! 85 % Percent Armor Pen? No problem! Not even knowing when or if I ever reach the "new" 50 % cap is something else.
There is a collision of interests. While I can understand yours, I still care more for my own. To me NW was endless hours of fun and pain leveling. It was 4 years ago when I started my Paladin, since my Hunter would be dead all the time. NW slowly grew to something special for me. I didn't have much of a plan at first, but when I found the Forum and MMOminds, the game and classes slowly made sense.
I got me VIP. Paying for good content is never a problem. I even bought Companions and other stuff from the Zen-Market. Yes, this makes me one of those who would spend real money into the game. While my Hunter still stayed weak, the Paladin became my main Character. I played it as a kind of Hybrid, doing (some) damage and being able to keep my Guild-Members alive.
I kept following NW thru all the changes being made. And no, I didn't like all of them. But the Preview of Mod 16, the drastic changes of the Paladin, actually to all classes, took the fun I had away. Mod 16 is not the Game I once started! It has no flesh or bone.
When you play both of these what becomes apparent is there is no reason to play a tank. No reason at all. Both block damage just the same, Oathkeeper heals alot more and has better Divinity recharging mechanics. Tank has no party tanking utility that would merrit taking it over Oathkeepr. Tell me @asterdahl how is my tank paladin more valuable to a party than an Oathkeepr? Or forget more, can he be at least equally valuable? Can he heal the same - no; can he dps the same - no(thanks to your 30% dmg reduction); does he have some great party wide protection ability - no! Right now Oathkeeper is just so much better BUT I dont want to play a healer Paladin...
I think Im getting angry so I'll just stop here and go Play Warhammer 40k while you figure your way our of the mess you created dear devs.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
@asterdahl, @lordaeolos I found a solution to why OP die on one shot. The augment companion is responsible for that. CHICKEN.
Well. It is probably all augments since i don't use chicken.
Can't be all augments, I'm using the Baby Bullete powers without issue. The players I was testing with that has issues, was slotting one of the chicken powers. To be clear the problem didn't seem to be with what was summoned, but with what powers were slotted.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
@asterdahl, @lordaeolos I found a solution to why OP die on one shot. The augment companion is responsible for that. CHICKEN.
Well. It is probably all augments since i don't use chicken.
Can't be all augments, I'm using the Baby Bullete powers without issue. The players I was testing with that has issues, was slotting one of the chicken powers. To be clear the problem didn't seem to be with what was summoned, but with what powers were slotted.
It's more than just augments. My OP doesn't even own one (and never has) yet gets one-shotted by mobs my CW can tank
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.
First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.
The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.
The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.
Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.
5
gormenghast1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 88Arc User
Hello! Thanks for the feedback and detailed breakdown of your experience. While I know a lot of people are posting in this thread, very upset that they were defeated in an area like Sharandar, please take a look at logs like this—Paladin was able to solo scaled content intended for a group. Please keep in mind that if you're getting crushed, there are likely bugs making things too hard. On the other hand, there are a few things that may be too easy as well! With that out of the way...
To be clear, the 1/5th values I quoted are in normative play with all DPS focused powers, and that is without taking class mechanics into account. Due to the way Justicar's Charge works, if you're mostly blocking to regain divinity, you're not going to be using a lot of at-wills. Particularly when trying to solo content meant for a group, that's going to be the case a lot of the time.
The following video is a solo run in ESoT made by a GF in tank spec lasting a whole 3:34 minutes. The paladin "not meant to solo any content though for a 5 person party" took more than 13 minutes and probably died a bunch of times in the process.
I play an almost 19k OP since the inception of the class and my feedback can be summed up as having lost all of the dynamics that made the paladin unique as a tank and as a buffer. The god granting divinity evidently does it out of shame while looking its "champion" getting ganked behind his shield and could be almost heard saying: "come on, hit them too once in a while like your heroic friends do!" (possibly poking him with a divine invisibile stick).
The logic of granting divine power for getting hit hundreds of times is beyond me. I would expect to see an OP rewarded for his courage with the due amount of righteous wrath by his deity, instead he gets - very slowly - rewarded for hiding 90% of the time behind a shield like a coward. I don't feel any elation to play my class in the sorry state as it is now; at least the other tank classes seem to have received lots of consideration with free dailies, full stamina recharges, control immunity and 4000 magnitude hits. Playing the Dreadnought or the Sentinel feels rewarding, opposite to the slow, turtlish and clunky Justicar's gameplay.
Sorry to say it, but not looking forward at all to play this class without a complete overhaul of the current overhaul.
In regards to paralyze and block—are you referring to being able to block the individual tics or block the initial application of the effect?
I tried blocking the paralyzing shot from a yuan-ti in TONG with the shield and it seemed to apply paralysis through the block, I will try again to double check just to be sure. I noticed that once the debuff is applied it will stun me during blocking, but I assumed that was intended.
@asterdahl: Typing on phone, so may have autocorrect fails.
I am hearing:
1) You are doing a lot of the playtesting 2) You are doing it in groups in dungeons
I am guessing:
1) You loved the GF tank 2) You feel tanking in other MMOs is more "tactical" 3) You only run groups with playtesters or dev's, people who already know what they are doing 4) It is almost all WoW style runs on dungeons
<I>Play like our experience.</i>
Only run random PUGs, with people 3-4 thousand IL below you, no headset, no keyboard (I am normally console), and maybe different languages. Only have 2 hours to play an evening, set a timer. Make sure you try some solo content.
I hated the GF and loved the OP. Why? I don't find the block mechanism tactical except for bosses. The OP controls mobs- you don't play your toon, you play the mob/adds/fight. It was very dynamic, letting you react to the random groups you would queue with and deal with solo play.
Yeah, I frequently take position 1 or 2 for damage dealer, because a) I built lean and b) I run at 15.4k and i frequently end up queued with 12ks. I should, at that gap, out damage them.
You are making the OP a GF. Don't mistake your preference for what it should be, and don't mistake your ideal grouping situation for standard.
Also, I run the 3 health bar build, I kept my defense low on purpose for the Protection mechanic. You know what? I have the healthbar experience you describe already, managing my HP in end game content, making decisions about movement, stones, potions, and power usage to stay alive. You are taking that away, not adding it
Final comment: Your dev team tends to do this, focusing on final play and ignoring the experience of leveling (solo) or having to carry groups as a support class. You know why Lifesteal was something people took? Not because it was so awesome, but because after the nth time you queued with a cruddy healer, and you were tired of blowing all your money on potions, you just built in self-healing. Healer was maybe too low level, or did not know what they were doing, or spec'd to not heal- because they had been in too many PUGs with cruddy DPS or tanks, so they built the ability in!
You wouldn't have to do this overhaul if you fixed your queue system to not allow that. Players are forced by experience to glob on to lifesteal and recovery, not being power mad.
This is the first time I am writing a comment on this game. I am so conflicted I thought it was needed. I believe most people in my guild feel like I do. Maybe 2 have written comments in these forums. 7 or 8 are the pally class. Each and every person has come to the same conclusion. The pally is no longer the class and feel that they started all those years ago. It is a new class and should be called something else. Almost all will no long play it. That is the big complaint. Everything we geared out class for has changed. Most of our enchants are wrong for the new class. Not many of us stacked Def after a certain IL. It was HP. HP seems to help our shield but Def seems to be where to invest in now. How much cost alone to time and real money were enchants? Mounts, Gear, Companions, oh my! Of course everyone is different and will play it differently. But its easier for lower IL characters to re-gear. We all heard that we will get used to it and enjoy it as its such a great mod. Possible. Not probable. Why try? It seems a bit insulting to tell us that actually and the established players are your loyal player base.
My pally was 17k and I'm a long time player with most of all the high end toys. I can't really comment about gameplay accurately as I tried on preview and was one-hit-killed over and over again. I found it boring overall though. I've not tried to take out my augments yet. I will soon. Hopefully that will solve the problem with one hit kills. Shield up and hit with smite when recharged seemed to be the only way for me to play this class atm. It reminded me too much of the GF and I disliked the GF with the shield mechanic. Now its core to my class. Why use at-wills btw? I could not figure out their purpose now. Surely the new design of the class was not supposed to hide behind a shield and hit using smite when it was recharged? I did just oversimplify but was basically what happened and the one-hit-kill problem had me very frustrated.
The creation system seems simplistic now. Diversity was interesting. We asked to redo feat trees many times, and it was needed as some were quite useless and never used. NOT LIKE THIS. Very simple choices and we have to use an at-will for a 5% chance at smite to crit? Are we tanks/healers now or DPS. This seems to be poorly though out as it was a carry over from old feat tree of increasing our crit? 2nd feat choice is for absolution to increase the recovery of divinity. I honestly did not see an increase as divinity increased so slowly and seems to be so important for us. 3rd choice: why would I want to reduce my movement speed when I use binding oath? Slow = problems. My next choice I really want to take increased divinity but its only over 75% that this works for. If its over 75% why do I need rate increase and not something else? All of these choices seem to be, take the best of a bad choice. Is this supposed to be the section where we custom make our toons to be different and exciting? So make it like that! Do something wonderful and interesting to make no one toon the same ever and for gods sake don't make it so simplistic and cookie cutter. I see that most of the comments seem to think the same. I cant see ever liking this. The ability score choices are all the same too with all classes? WTH? Why?
I have been thru all these changes time and time again, and I've soldiered on. Better state of the game is better for us as a whole. Ok. I understand that and am behind it 100%. How is THIS better for the state of the game? As it stands on preview you will loose quite a few players. You have to know this? Just look at all those negative comments, and please don't think that all the players not commenting meant they are positive or undecided. Yes something had to be done. Lets face it, over a certain IL we were most times un-killable and it was fairly boring overall. AND this is just the pally class I'm talking about. The others had their own unique problems with being over powered. It was a huge problem and not going to be fixed overnight.
So make your changes and use a template of the same class we have, encounters/at-wills/dailies. Tweak stats, take out what you want, add new ones, but use the same framework. Do not change how the class functions and expect us to like it. If you take out templar's wrath HP gain we would be upset but not revolt and I'm sure we would learn to live with it just fine. We now have reduced powers/feats and are being lead to take certain choices (composure for divinity gain), have auras that only work if we use dailies or certain encounters(smite yet again, whoever designed this class liked smite it seems). If this goes live like this there are a lot of established players who will just go somewhere else and try something different from scratch where they feel they will not be betrayed by the company running the game. From what everyone says its already a done deal.
@asterdahl, @lordaeolos I found a solution to why OP die on one shot. The augment companion is responsible for that. CHICKEN.
THANK YOU @bazylikon tried at once eSoT and you are right. Oathkeeper spec total damage received about 1.5m not once a damage spike. 9.5 mins lot of them just waiting to refill divinity and encounters very engaging gameplay!
I have re-tested blocking vs Harvesters in the Terminus zone to see how block works with paralysis.
Method; smite harvester until it is dead -> stand in the outer edge of the red circle, pointing inward at the centre and hold down block -> successfully block explosion, take 0 damage
Doing this, the paralysis is applied to my character even though the attack was blocked, if I continue to block I keep seeing "Immune" pop up in yellow text. So it appears I can't block the application of the debuff, but I can block its procs, which is the exact opposite of how I would expect it to work. Checking the combat log afterward showed text entries something along the lines of "Your Paralyze gives 0 hold to you."
tl;dr Block doesn't seem to prevent the application of the paralysis debuff, but will protect you fomr it as long as you don't stop blocking.
Also, the visual explosion of the Harvesters is out of sync with the actual effect. Visually the red circle appears, and the mob explodes, then about 2 seconds later you get the actual effect.
Hello! I'm sorry for the REALLY long post, but these changes are so promising; I main and love shield healers in MMOs and so the new direction of the game got me very excited!
Divinity System In my solo leveling experience, Encounters feel much more powerful (a bit too powerful, IMO) and strategic indeed, but running out of mana/divinity and getting locked out of your kit for the rest of the battle after just two or three damaging spells feels awful. Only when Sacred Hammer (with the regen feat) was active it felt like the battle had a interesting flow – use encounters, play a bit defensive, weave some at-wills when possible etc. While it is on CD and I'm out of Divinity, it feels like battles are just dragging out and if things go south, I find myself just waiting for my companion to kill stuff while I simply wait behind the shield.
Overall, I think it would feel better if the flow were smoother: more frequent but less powerful encounters; the Warlock does it very well.
Also, the out of combat regen is very low; often I would enter combat with low divinity because it didn't fill while I was walking from one place to the other. I mean, indeed I could just wait a bit or channel divinity before entering combat, but that type of caution really remembers me of 2008 MMOs where you spent more time waiting for MP to regen than actually playing/casting stuff.
Channel Divinity As much as I love the concept, it creates a really weird dilemma about "should I be channeling divinity to deal damage with encounters or should I be attacking with at-wills while I wait for Sacred Hammer CD?" as such, I always chose the second option, since standing still waiting is... really... not that fun. At least in solo combat, using it REALLY feels like I'm just waiting to have fun and I am being punished for having "wasted" my encounters.
I would rather see an active type of divinity generation than a passive one, one that I work towards to instead of having an on-demand but very inefficient and boring one.
Essence Drain from the Healer Warlock is, IMO, a very good model to follow: The tab ability is unique and tailored for the Warlock needs, having it own risks ( immobile ) and rewards ( damage, sustain) while efficient enough to not feel like a burden.
Block I really love the shield in solo play, it creates a whole new skill ceiling about the blocking at the right timing, offensive uptime and etc. The only problem I have is: it doesn't have ANY synergy with the healer paragon, its a very cool mechanic but it feels like just a leftover from the tank paladin.
I really would like to get rewarded for using it right, like getting Divinity per block, so I can keep a active momentum playstyle going. It would also help that if I have to cower behind the shield because I did something poorly (pulled too much, stepped into an AOE etc) , it doesn't feel like I'm delaying the inevitable.
It also worries me that full damage reduction might create balancing issues in dungeon designs. In one hand, if tanks use it perfectly, he might negate all damage and a healer will not even be needed. In other hand, if he uses it poorly and waste it somehow, he would not survive damage that is supposed to be blocked. I find it difficult to think it will not create a feast-or-famine dynamic to tank and healer cooperation. ):
At wills: I feel like all At-wills some generate a bit of divinity by their own, so they act as filler attacks as I feel they are intended to be, not as a desperate last resource of damage.
Divine Fulmination – Gameplaywise, it feels great to finally have a ranged option; the aftercast feels a bit too long and I don't know if it is simply not done yet or if it's a bug, but it doesn't produce any sound effect.
Cure Wounds – I suppose it fills the niche of "efficient/free heal that you will only use if you are worried about resources" kinda well, I think it could be a BIT stronger though so it doesn't feel like grasping for straws. Also, the targeting works a bit weirdly when the key is held down, sometimes switching targets on minor mouse movements. I believe it would better to keep casting it on the target you selected when you started holding the key down to allow looking around while still healing your priority target.
Oath Strike – 10 Magnitude feels WAY too low, but honestly I don't know how big is the increased threat to wonder if the it is worth it even just for the aggro. Althought not having to worry about aggro in solo play should be reason enough to not use it, having to change your at-will everytime you want to enter a dungeon doesn't feel good.
Valorous Strike and Shielding Strike – Shielding Strike feels like a direct upgrade to Valorous Strike, and as such the first loses all usability as the second is unlocked. Both are very solid melee attacks, but I don't feel like one should overlap the other just like that. Giving a bonus effect to Valorous might help with that.
Radiant Strike – Clear utility and identity, wonderful as it is.
Encounter Powers: I feel like all encounters are dealing way too much damage, a clear example is that two Smites deal as much damage as one Divine Judgment, even though dailies are already much slower to fill.
Burning Light and Bane – I don't think 3 second stun of Burning Light compensate for the three times more damage that Bane has. Bane should have more damage for having a Divinity cost, indeed, but I think a magnitude of 300 should surface, otherwise the massive DPS increase of one will overshadow the utility and usability of the another. Also, Burning Light still has the "hold to increase effect" cast barr, despite having no difference between casting it instantly and charging for the 2 secs.
Sacred Weapon – Should be an interesting (free) damaging encounter if you are saving Divinity for something else. I only used it for the regen effect though, it seem to have a bad synergy with Divine Fulmination because of its lower attack-rate.
Smite – It has WAY too much magnitude, it is as a mini-daily power. I really like that it is ranged now, though. If any changes to divinity regen get done, I would like to see it as a way to dump excessive divinity into a bit of damage.
Divine Touch and Divine Shelter – I am aware of the massive range difference between the two, but having almost the same spell effect with just some range difference seem... a bit lame. Also, there is a weird interaction between the shields, sometimes using a bigger shield on the smaller one will decrease it, and sometimes stack together, I really do not understand it.
Circle of Power – In my honest opinion, the visual effect of this skill is HIGHLY misleading. The area is gold with shields floating around it, if I didn't know better I would surely think it is a damage reducing/shielding area that I should stay inside. I don't think a simple self-buff that only the paladin has to stay inside should be this eye-catching. Just removing the rotating shields and/or turning down the yellow shine should help, but it is still a bit of a underwhelming encounter.
Daily Powers
I believe Sanctuary completely overshadows Shield of Faith, giving more damage reduction than it plus a heal over time effect. It would be nice if they filled different niches, like one for shielding/damage reduction and another for a heal over time.
Feats Honestly, both tank and healers feats are... kinda messy. One of the biggest offenders is some Feats giving effects to skills you haven't even unlocked yet, which make the decision making really frustrating. While some feat in DPS jobs feel really meaningful and change your playstyle completely, like arcane vs elemental wizard, most of the healers' feats feels like you are just upgrading random encounters that you might or might not even like or use. I really would like to see some play style defining encounters, something like "you shield for more" vs "your shields heal if they expire" instead of choosing between the lesser of two evils
I will not even talk about Class Features because I have always found them a bit underwhelming, but I feel like they are a wasted opportunity for choosing two core characteristics for your playstyle among many kinda like what Feats are trying to do right now.
In my small experience of leveling from 70 to 72 and doing two easy dungeons ( Cragmire Crypt and Kessel's Retreat ) I still feel like power creep is the biggest problem in the game, specially in low level content. Just following the party while watching them burst everything in seconds is really frustrating, both for tanks that can't keep aggro because of the overwhelming damage of the party and for a healers that doesn't have nothing to heal. I suppose this flow of dungeons can be really discouraging for new players.
@asterdahl said: So while you might feel like divinity is slow, if divinity regeneration were sped up, the damage on those encounters would have to be reduced to compensate.
To compensate what exactly? Perhaps to compensate me that my 18k+ Paladin who costs millions of AD and hundreds if not thousands of euros if you convert it to real world currency can now perform the same as a 11k GF alt who is only used on Live to farm weekly AD quests?!
Is that what you're gonna compesate for? Please get real. I copied my 11.5k alt GF to Preview, specced it for damage, he is just as tough as my 18k Paladin/justicar and he does more damage, spamming dailies like they are at wills. This is in Dread Ring btw both of them. What kind of internal testing are you doing? What is your vision for the Paladin class? How can you make the Fighter so much better, I mean I know the GF has always had more damage capability than the Paladin but now you nerf one while the other is still going strong?! Why is a 18 000 points in item level Justicar performance solo in Dread Ring below the performance of 11 500 item level alt Figter ? Im so pissed right now I might even get a recording software and make some videos of both, then, perhaps you can tell me @asterdahl how come 6000+ difference in item level means nothing and a much less geared Fighter/with half the boons inactive/ outperforms a bis (bis for lvl 70) Justicar ?
I might but I won't, because honestly ,making videos to prove a point requires time I dont have. What you and your company wont have however are my money.
PS: I think you need help. I think you and your fellow dev team are in over your heads. Better call your CEO to get @getlemancrash on board part time , at least while you ship m16. He used to know what a Paladin feel like.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Hello! I'm sorry for the REALLY long post, but these changes are so promising; I main and love shield healers in MMOs and so the new direction of the game got me very excited!
Divinity System In my solo leveling experience, Encounters feel much more powerful (a bit too powerful, IMO) and strategic indeed, but running out of mana/divinity and getting locked out of your kit for the rest of the battle after just two or three damaging spells feels awful. Only when Sacred Hammer (with the regen feat) was active it felt like the battle had a interesting flow – use encounters, play a bit defensive, weave some at-wills when possible etc. While it is on CD and I'm out of Divinity, it feels like battles are just dragging out and if things go south, I find myself just waiting for my companion to kill stuff while I simply wait behind the shield.
Overall, I think it would feel better if the flow were smoother: more frequent but less powerful encounters; the Warlock does it very well.
Also, the out of combat regen is very low; often I would enter combat with low divinity because it didn't fill while I was walking from one place to the other. I mean, indeed I could just wait a bit or channel divinity before entering combat, but that type of caution really remembers me of 2008 MMOs where you spent more time waiting for MP to regen than actually playing/casting stuff.
Channel Divinity As much as I love the concept, it creates a really weird dilemma about "should I be channeling divinity to deal damage with encounters or should I be attacking with at-wills while I wait for Sacred Hammer CD?" as such, I always chose the second option, since standing still waiting is... really... not that fun. At least in solo combat, using it REALLY feels like I'm just waiting to have fun and I am being punished for having "wasted" my encounters.
I would rather see an active type of divinity generation than a passive one, one that I work towards to instead of having an on-demand but very inefficient and boring one.
Essence Drain from the Healer Warlock is, IMO, a very good model to follow: The tab ability is unique and tailored for the Warlock needs, having it own risks ( immobile ) and rewards ( damage, sustain) while efficient enough to not feel like a burden.
Block I really love the shield in solo play, it creates a whole new skill ceiling about the blocking at the right timing, offensive uptime and etc. The only problem I have is: it doesn't have ANY synergy with the healer paragon, its a very cool mechanic but it feels like just a leftover from the tank paladin.
I really would like to get rewarded for using it right, like getting Divinity per block, so I can keep a active momentum playstyle going. It would also help that if I have to cower behind the shield because I did something poorly (pulled too much, stepped into an AOE etc) , it doesn't feel like I'm delaying the inevitable.
It also worries me that full damage reduction might create balancing issues in dungeon designs. In one hand, if tanks use it perfectly, he might negate all damage and a healer will not even be needed. In other hand, if he uses it poorly and waste it somehow, he would not survive damage that is supposed to be blocked. I find it difficult to think it will not create a feast-or-famine dynamic to tank and healer cooperation. ):
At wills: I feel like all At-wills some generate a bit of divinity by their own, so they act as filler attacks as I feel they are intended to be, not as a desperate last resource of damage.
Divine Fulmination – Gameplaywise, it feels great to finally have a ranged option; the aftercast feels a bit too long and I don't know if it is simply not done yet or if it's a bug, but it doesn't produce any sound effect.
Cure Wounds – I suppose it fills the niche of "efficient/free heal that you will only use if you are worried about resources" kinda well, I think it could be a BIT stronger though so it doesn't feel like grasping for straws. Also, the targeting works a bit weirdly when the key is held down, sometimes switching targets on minor mouse movements. I believe it would better to keep casting it on the target you selected when you started holding the key down to allow looking around while still healing your priority target.
Oath Strike – 10 Magnitude feels WAY too low, but honestly I don't know how big is the increased threat to wonder if the it is worth it even just for the aggro. Althought not having to worry about aggro in solo play should be reason enough to not use it, having to change your at-will everytime you want to enter a dungeon doesn't feel good.
Valorous Strike and Shielding Strike – Shielding Strike feels like a direct upgrade to Valorous Strike, and as such the first loses all usability as the second is unlocked. Both are very solid melee attacks, but I don't feel like one should overlap the other just like that. Giving a bonus effect to Valorous might help with that.
Radiant Strike – Clear utility and identity, wonderful as it is.
Encounter Powers: I feel like all encounters are dealing way too much damage, a clear example is that two Smites deal as much damage as one Divine Judgment, even though dailies are already much slower to fill.
Burning Light and Bane – I don't think 3 second stun of Burning Light compensate for the three times more damage that Bane has. Bane should have more damage for having a Divinity cost, indeed, but I think a magnitude of 300 should surface, otherwise the massive DPS increase of one will overshadow the utility and usability of the another. Also, Burning Light still has the "hold to increase effect" cast barr, despite having no difference between casting it instantly and charging for the 2 secs.
Sacred Weapon – Should be an interesting (free) damaging encounter if you are saving Divinity for something else. I only used it for the regen effect though, it seem to have a bad synergy with Divine Fulmination because of its lower attack-rate.
Smite – It has WAY too much magnitude, it is as a mini-daily power. I really like that it is ranged now, though. If any changes to divinity regen get done, I would like to see it as a way to dump excessive divinity into a bit of damage.
Divine Touch and Divine Shelter – I am aware of the massive range difference between the two, but having almost the same spell effect with just some range difference seem... a bit lame. Also, there is a weird interaction between the shields, sometimes using a bigger shield on the smaller one will decrease it, and sometimes stack together, I really do not understand it.
Circle of Power – In my honest opinion, the visual effect of this skill is HIGHLY misleading. The area is gold with shields floating around it, if I didn't know better I would surely think it is a damage reducing/shielding area that I should stay inside. I don't think a simple self-buff that only the paladin has to stay inside should be this eye-catching. Just removing the rotating shields and/or turning down the yellow shine should help, but it is still a bit of a underwhelming encounter.
Daily Powers
I believe Sanctuary completely overshadows Shield of Faith, giving more damage reduction than it plus a heal over time effect. It would be nice if they filled different niches, like one for shielding/damage reduction and another for a heal over time.
Feats Honestly, both tank and healers feats are... kinda messy. One of the biggest offenders is some Feats giving effects to skills you haven't even unlocked yet, which make the decision making really frustrating. While some feat in DPS jobs feel really meaningful and change your playstyle completely, like arcane vs elemental wizard, most of the healers' feats feels like you are just upgrading random encounters that you might or might not even like or use. I really would like to see some play style defining encounters, something like "you shield for more" vs "your shields heal if they expire" instead of choosing between the lesser of two evils
I will not even talk about Class Features because I have always found them a bit underwhelming, but I feel like they are a wasted opportunity for choosing two core characteristics for your playstyle among many kinda like what Feats are trying to do right now.
In my small experience of leveling from 70 to 72 and doing two easy dungeons ( Cragmire Crypt and Kessel's Retreat ) I still feel like power creep is the biggest problem in the game, specially in low level content. Just following the party while watching them burst everything in seconds is really frustrating, both for tanks that can't keep aggro because of the overwhelming damage of the party and for a healers that doesn't have nothing to heal. I suppose this flow of dungeons can be really discouraging for new players.
Again, sorry for the long post!
Great post here. Captures some of what I plan to incorporate into my own feedback.
ok @asterdahl now that we got over the one shot chicken thing let's get to gameplay. Did a 4 man eToS, all toons lvl 70, the 3 of us close to 19k in preview with the guild boons, one 15k. my stats
As I understand one encounter power is occupied by templar's wrath (divinity) you can't risk losing aggro and that is the only area aggro tool that you don't need to wait 20 secs to cast, no options there. For encounter powers (and always for group play) Burning light = useless sacred weapon to buff my pitiful damage = useless relentless avenger = pitiful binding oath = even more pitiful Vow of enmity = 1st candidate to open the encounter and get aggro quickly absolution = 2nd candidate for extra protection So you either go with these two encounters or you replace one for the almighty smite (for personal joy) that you cannot risk frequent use and run out of templar's wrath.
Now pls @asterdahl tell me what motivation do I have to build my character. In the image above there are almost 180k offensive stats for what? for the "your oath strikes deals 365 damage"?
Justicar paladin feels pathetic I was really sad after these runs.
Since you tank a lot as you mentioned how do you feel that 80% of your stats means nothing, absolutely nothing.
How do you feel that you have 180k stats that you don't use since you re like block, templar's, block and sometimes smite.
So pls give encounters a purpose, make encounters with low or zero magnitude with utility that won't take ages to reload.
Just offering more specific things I've noticed, hope it helps.
I'm having a terrible time holding agro still even when I use all agro abilities and hit first with vow at a distance. If a Barbarian dps is with me, they constantly take agro, same with dps Cleric. DPS and tanking seems to be backwards. Tanks are squishy but do damage and dps'ers are tanking and some are doing less damage. My stats are pretty high in my opinion and I understand dev team is aware something wonky is happening. Just figured I'd share more. It took me 9 minutes to solo Master of the Hunt. Went in with a healing cleric and a dps cleric and it took us 8 minutes. We were all level 80 in a level 64 skirmish. Seemed a little harsh.
I did a Castle Never with a Hunter Ranger, a Healing Cleric, and a dps Cleric and we had a much harder time on the trash mobs than bosses. Orcus died before he put his arms up once... but demons were slaughtering us. Guild Hall, beast attack mobs are normal rating above their heads while Lake (another tier 1 HE) the orc all have elite epic dungeon icons above their heads.
Tigers, I can't for the life of me take agro back from them if they are out unless I'm alone. Also when I'm attacking training dummies or groups of mobs, my tiger doesn't attack the one I'm on, he moves to a different one and constantly wants to be beside me even when I try to flank to get combat advantage triggered.
Thanks for listening to us on these issues, it means a lot.
Has anyone found a way to make the Stamina and Divinity bars less transparent out of combat so it matches what it looks like in combat?
It is currently not possible to do this. That being said, we are planning to make sure the bars are visible whenever their are not full, even outside of combat, so that should help.
That is perfect!!! Thank you!!!
Shielding Strike does not have a description yet. I am only lvl 71 so it's not unlocked, however when I click on Heroism, which is also not unlocked, I can see the full description of what it does.
Comments
Paladin is no longer the versatile class I used to play. It's a dumb tank. I have spent tens of hours trying to customize my build in terms of Feats, Items, Companions, etc. I have read many guides, and I have never followed one 100%, because I disagreed with the objectives of the author, or their reasoning. The fact that so many guides existed even for a tank class speaks volumes about the depth that was present in its design. ALL of that is gone. And it's not just gone from Paladin. The rampant dumbing-down of so many aspects of the game in Mod 16 means that Neverwinter is no longer addressed to adults who can make choices. I don't know who it is addressed to, but it's not me.
Almost of the specific feedback I wanted to give has been mentioned in other posts. The changes are bad. In fact, the changes are insulting. Having a class mechanic that reduces damage dealt by 30%? So that the run-of-the-mill Rogue who makes poor choices cannot out-DPS me in a PVE environment? Just to save the ego of some teenager who thought DPSing in Neverwinter is like DPSing in Counter Strike? This feature right here is a mark of utter failure: if you had *really* taken your time to "balance" classes, it would have never existed. You can't balance classes, or content. If you could, and if it *really* was a priority, it would have been already polished. There wouldn't be ridiculous battle logs all over the place.
No, this module is not about rebalancing. It is about drastically reducing the complexity of the game, such that it becomes accessible to kids spending their parents money on open-world FPS. I could live with having my character overhauled, but I can't live with the changing in philosophy of the entire game. By the way, speaking about a "completely new game" and how about "we will be accustomed to the changes over time" is also insulting marketingese, and please stop repeating it. There is nowhere in your life where you would be fine with such a thing. If I took your car, your laptop or anything that you own and have spent countless hours being comfortable with, and replaced it with an unrecognizable similar piece, you would be outraged. I am also outraged, and you didn't just take my laptop, you took my diary.
As a final comment, I only have one advice to give to you, @asterdahl , since you are a developer. Much wiser people in Software Engineering have tried your approach, overhauling the product overnight and telling the customer "they will get used to it eventually". Microsoft tried it with Internet Explorer 8. It was a disaster. The new Paladin is a disaster for the same reason. Instead of careful nerfs, you did what is well known as "Shotgun Debugging". I understand that you had problems handling the old complex classes, but the way you "fixed" the issue means that you are incapable of handling customers with complex objectives.
In mod 16, there will be kids all over the place. Live long and prosper.
PS. Just so that this post is constructive, here is a little piece of specific feedback that has been mentioned in the general thread but is especially relevant for Paladin. There are now two defensive stats, Defense and Deflect, with two opposing rolls. In order to get any bonus from the stat, you have to have enough to overcome the opposing roll. This is problematic. If I have 8k of stats to spend among Defense and Deflect, I will put all 8k of it into one stat; if I split it 4k & 4k, I run the risk that both stats end up lower than the opposing stats of the enemy, which makes me have no bonus at all. If the enemy has 6k ArPen and 6k Accuracy, as will be the case, there is only one way for me to build the character so I have some damage reduction. This poorly thought stat mechanic will be the root cause of all cookie cutter builds in Mod 16: there will be many stats, but gearing in a way that increases them all WILL PROVIDE DIMINISHING RETURNS to your gameplay. Games who want to encourage diversity have a diminishing return mechanic on stacking A SINGLE stat. Neverwinter goes completely against the traditional wisdom without any reason at all. There are deep design flaws all over the place, and this particular one isn't something you can tweak, unless there is no piece of equipment in the game that provides a different amount of Defense vs Deflect.
Next is an HP issue. On preview after a respec without boons I'm at about 275k, I then took all 20 HP boon levels (2k each so should be 40,000) and only ended up at something like 286k HP. I noticed that the first one only seemed to give maybe 1100. Also is it correct that no other "normal" feats are shown like toughness?
Also similar to the Auras, the feats just feel bad. None of them really seem to do...... well anything. Having them vs not having them feels like it makes no difference or such a small amount it doesn't matter. IMO these need to go back to the drawing board.
Lastly Divinity feels at least a bit slow even with the aura that boosts it.
For those of us not getting one shot the mob damage cycles looked like: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 10 to 40k
For our teammate getting one shot the mob damage cycle looked like this: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 600k to 1.5m
Our stats point allocations were nearly identical, so to test we did the following:
Set all our feats to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Set all our boons to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle
Player three cleared all companion power slots: player 3 no longer experiencing one shots from every mob, and damage cycle looks like the players not experiencing crazy high burst from the mobs. We ended up having to stop there, so did not narrow down which companion slotted power might be the factor involved, I hope this helps.
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Absolution
This power decreases incoming dmg by 20%, acts as a multiplier of "*0.8".
However, it can't exceed the dmg reduction cap of 80%, therefor I would prefer if it would be changed to one of the two following alternatives:
1. Keep it as a "*0.8" multiplier, but let it exceed the dmg reduction cap of 80%, AT the cap the paladin would then take 16%, instead of 20% dmg.
This would make it useful for Paladins of all Item Levels.
2. Change it to additive "+0.2".
This would make it more powerful than it is right now (given you have more defense than the enemies have armor pen), but it would be somehow balanced because it can't exceed the 80% cap.
Test-details
Tested in Helm's Hold against a Legion Devil who deals the same amount of dmg with every hit.
Legion Devil deals 284 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack.
=> 20% cap, with and without Absolution.
Legion Devil deals 1210 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack.
Legion Devil deals 968 (1418) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack.
=> 968/1210 = 0.8, multiplier.
@asterdahl I am mad, I guess it shows. Though that's nothing personal. Mod 16 will take away something I called "fun." Some Guys in my Alliance already started their Math about the new Stats. That's them, I am not into such. I want easy fun! 85 % Percent Armor Pen? No problem! Not even knowing when or if I ever reach the "new" 50 % cap is something else.
There is a collision of interests. While I can understand yours, I still care more for my own. To me NW was endless hours of fun and pain leveling. It was 4 years ago when I started my Paladin, since my Hunter would be dead all the time. NW slowly grew to something special for me. I didn't have much of a plan at first, but when I found the Forum and MMOminds, the game and classes slowly made sense.
I got me VIP. Paying for good content is never a problem. I even bought Companions and other stuff from the Zen-Market. Yes, this makes me one of those who would spend real money into the game. While my Hunter still stayed weak, the Paladin became my main Character. I played it as a kind of Hybrid, doing (some) damage and being able to keep my Guild-Members alive.
I kept following NW thru all the changes being made. And no, I didn't like all of them. But the Preview of Mod 16, the drastic changes of the Paladin, actually to all classes, took the fun I had away. Mod 16 is not the Game I once started! It has no flesh or bone.
That's it. Thank you for reading.
When you play both of these what becomes apparent is there is no reason to play a tank. No reason at all. Both block damage just the same, Oathkeeper heals alot more and has better Divinity recharging mechanics. Tank has no party tanking utility that would merrit taking it over Oathkeepr. Tell me @asterdahl how is my tank paladin more valuable to a party than an Oathkeepr? Or forget more, can he be at least equally valuable? Can he heal the same - no; can he dps the same - no(thanks to your 30% dmg reduction); does he have some great party wide protection ability - no! Right now Oathkeeper is just so much better BUT I dont want to play a healer Paladin...
I think Im getting angry so I'll just stop here and go Play Warhammer 40k while you figure your way our of the mess you created dear devs.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I found a solution to why OP die on one shot. The augment companion is responsible for that. CHICKEN.
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
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"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.
The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.
The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.
Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.
The following video is a solo run in ESoT made by a GF in tank spec lasting a whole 3:34 minutes. The paladin "not meant to solo any content though for a 5 person party" took more than 13 minutes and probably died a bunch of times in the process.
I play an almost 19k OP since the inception of the class and my feedback can be summed up as having lost all of the dynamics that made the paladin unique as a tank and as a buffer. The god granting divinity evidently does it out of shame while looking its "champion" getting ganked behind his shield and could be almost heard saying: "come on, hit them too once in a while like your heroic friends do!" (possibly poking him with a divine invisibile stick).
The logic of granting divine power for getting hit hundreds of times is beyond me. I would expect to see an OP rewarded for his courage with the due amount of righteous wrath by his deity, instead he gets - very slowly - rewarded for hiding 90% of the time behind a shield like a coward. I don't feel any elation to play my class in the sorry state as it is now; at least the other tank classes seem to have received lots of consideration with free dailies, full stamina recharges, control immunity and 4000 magnitude hits. Playing the Dreadnought or the Sentinel feels rewarding, opposite to the slow, turtlish and clunky Justicar's gameplay.
Sorry to say it, but not looking forward at all to play this class without a complete overhaul of the current overhaul.
Typing on phone, so may have autocorrect fails.
I am hearing:
1) You are doing a lot of the playtesting
2) You are doing it in groups in dungeons
I am guessing:
1) You loved the GF tank
2) You feel tanking in other MMOs is more "tactical"
3) You only run groups with playtesters or dev's, people who already know what they are doing
4) It is almost all WoW style runs on dungeons
<I>Play like our experience.</i>
Only run random PUGs, with people 3-4 thousand IL below you, no headset, no keyboard (I am normally console), and maybe different languages. Only have 2 hours to play an evening, set a timer. Make sure you try some solo content.
I hated the GF and loved the OP. Why? I don't find the block mechanism tactical except for bosses. The OP controls mobs- you don't play your toon, you play the mob/adds/fight. It was very dynamic, letting you react to the random groups you would queue with and deal with solo play.
Yeah, I frequently take position 1 or 2 for damage dealer, because a) I built lean and b) I run at 15.4k and i frequently end up queued with 12ks. I should, at that gap, out damage them.
You are making the OP a GF. Don't mistake your preference for what it should be, and don't mistake your ideal grouping situation for standard.
You wouldn't have to do this overhaul if you fixed your queue system to not allow that. Players are forced by experience to glob on to lifesteal and recovery, not being power mad.
My pally was 17k and I'm a long time player with most of all the high end toys. I can't really comment about gameplay accurately as I tried on preview and was one-hit-killed over and over again. I found it boring overall though. I've not tried to take out my augments yet. I will soon. Hopefully that will solve the problem with one hit kills. Shield up and hit with smite when recharged seemed to be the only way for me to play this class atm. It reminded me too much of the GF and I disliked the GF with the shield mechanic. Now its core to my class. Why use at-wills btw? I could not figure out their purpose now. Surely the new design of the class was not supposed to hide behind a shield and hit using smite when it was recharged? I did just oversimplify but was basically what happened and the one-hit-kill problem had me very frustrated.
The creation system seems simplistic now. Diversity was interesting. We asked to redo feat trees many times, and it was needed as some were quite useless and never used. NOT LIKE THIS. Very simple choices and we have to use an at-will for a 5% chance at smite to crit? Are we tanks/healers now or DPS. This seems to be poorly though out as it was a carry over from old feat tree of increasing our crit? 2nd feat choice is for absolution to increase the recovery of divinity. I honestly did not see an increase as divinity increased so slowly and seems to be so important for us. 3rd choice: why would I want to reduce my movement speed when I use binding oath? Slow = problems. My next choice I really want to take increased divinity but its only over 75% that this works for. If its over 75% why do I need rate increase and not something else? All of these choices seem to be, take the best of a bad choice. Is this supposed to be the section where we custom make our toons to be different and exciting? So make it like that! Do something wonderful and interesting to make no one toon the same ever and for gods sake don't make it so simplistic and cookie cutter. I see that most of the comments seem to think the same. I cant see ever liking this. The ability score choices are all the same too with all classes? WTH? Why?
I have been thru all these changes time and time again, and I've soldiered on. Better state of the game is better for us as a whole. Ok. I understand that and am behind it 100%. How is THIS better for the state of the game? As it stands on preview you will loose quite a few players. You have to know this? Just look at all those negative comments, and please don't think that all the players not commenting meant they are positive or undecided. Yes something had to be done. Lets face it, over a certain IL we were most times un-killable and it was fairly boring overall. AND this is just the pally class I'm talking about. The others had their own unique problems with being over powered. It was a huge problem and not going to be fixed overnight.
So make your changes and use a template of the same class we have, encounters/at-wills/dailies. Tweak stats, take out what you want, add new ones, but use the same framework. Do not change how the class functions and expect us to like it. If you take out templar's wrath HP gain we would be upset but not revolt and I'm sure we would learn to live with it just fine. We now have reduced powers/feats and are being lead to take certain choices (composure for divinity gain), have auras that only work if we use dailies or certain encounters(smite yet again, whoever designed this class liked smite it seems). If this goes live like this there are a lot of established players who will just go somewhere else and try something different from scratch where they feel they will not be betrayed by the company running the game. From what everyone says its already a done deal.
Method; smite harvester until it is dead -> stand in the outer edge of the red circle, pointing inward at the centre and hold down block -> successfully block explosion, take 0 damage
Doing this, the paralysis is applied to my character even though the attack was blocked, if I continue to block I keep seeing "Immune" pop up in yellow text. So it appears I can't block the application of the debuff, but I can block its procs, which is the exact opposite of how I would expect it to work. Checking the combat log afterward showed text entries something along the lines of "Your Paralyze gives 0 hold to you."
tl;dr Block doesn't seem to prevent the application of the paralysis debuff, but will protect you fomr it as long as you don't stop blocking.
Also, the visual explosion of the Harvesters is out of sync with the actual effect. Visually the red circle appears, and the mob explodes, then about 2 seconds later you get the actual effect.
I'm sorry for the REALLY long post, but these changes are so promising; I main and love shield healers in MMOs and so the new direction of the game got me very excited!
Divinity System
In my solo leveling experience, Encounters feel much more powerful (a bit too powerful, IMO) and strategic indeed, but running out of mana/divinity and getting locked out of your kit for the rest of the battle after just two or three damaging spells feels awful.
Only when Sacred Hammer (with the regen feat) was active it felt like the battle had a interesting flow – use encounters, play a bit defensive, weave some at-wills when possible etc. While it is on CD and I'm out of Divinity, it feels like battles are just dragging out and if things go south, I find myself just waiting for my companion to kill stuff while I simply wait behind the shield.
Overall, I think it would feel better if the flow were smoother: more frequent but less powerful encounters; the Warlock does it very well.
Also, the out of combat regen is very low; often I would enter combat with low divinity because it didn't fill while I was walking from one place to the other.
I mean, indeed I could just wait a bit or channel divinity before entering combat, but that type of caution really remembers me of 2008 MMOs where you spent more time waiting for MP to regen than actually playing/casting stuff.
Channel Divinity
As much as I love the concept, it creates a really weird dilemma about "should I be channeling divinity to deal damage with encounters or should I be attacking with at-wills while I wait for Sacred Hammer CD?" as such, I always chose the second option, since standing still waiting is... really... not that fun.
At least in solo combat, using it REALLY feels like I'm just waiting to have fun and I am being punished for having "wasted" my encounters.
I would rather see an active type of divinity generation than a passive one, one that I work towards to instead of having an on-demand but very inefficient and boring one.
Essence Drain from the Healer Warlock is, IMO, a very good model to follow: The tab ability is unique and tailored for the Warlock needs, having it own risks ( immobile ) and rewards ( damage, sustain) while efficient enough to not feel like a burden.
Block
I really love the shield in solo play, it creates a whole new skill ceiling about the blocking at the right timing, offensive uptime and etc.
The only problem I have is: it doesn't have ANY synergy with the healer paragon, its a very cool mechanic but it feels like just a leftover from the tank paladin.
I really would like to get rewarded for using it right, like getting Divinity per block, so I can keep a active momentum playstyle going. It would also help that if I have to cower behind the shield because I did something poorly (pulled too much, stepped into an AOE etc) , it doesn't feel like I'm delaying the inevitable.
It also worries me that full damage reduction might create balancing issues in dungeon designs. In one hand, if tanks use it perfectly, he might negate all damage and a healer will not even be needed.
In other hand, if he uses it poorly and waste it somehow, he would not survive damage that is supposed to be blocked. I find it difficult to think it will not create a feast-or-famine dynamic to tank and healer cooperation. ):
At wills:
I feel like all At-wills some generate a bit of divinity by their own, so they act as filler attacks as I feel they are intended to be, not as a desperate last resource of damage.
Divine Fulmination – Gameplaywise, it feels great to finally have a ranged option; the aftercast feels a bit too long and I don't know if it is simply not done yet or if it's a bug, but it doesn't produce any sound effect.
Cure Wounds – I suppose it fills the niche of "efficient/free heal that you will only use if you are worried about resources" kinda well, I think it could be a BIT stronger though so it doesn't feel like grasping for straws.
Also, the targeting works a bit weirdly when the key is held down, sometimes switching targets on minor mouse movements.
I believe it would better to keep casting it on the target you selected when you started holding the key down to allow looking around while still healing your priority target.
Oath Strike – 10 Magnitude feels WAY too low, but honestly I don't know how big is the increased threat to wonder if the it is worth it even just for the aggro. Althought not having to worry about aggro in solo play should be reason enough to not use it, having to change your at-will everytime you want to enter a dungeon doesn't feel good.
Valorous Strike and Shielding Strike – Shielding Strike feels like a direct upgrade to Valorous Strike, and as such the first loses all usability as the second is unlocked.
Both are very solid melee attacks, but I don't feel like one should overlap the other just like that. Giving a bonus effect to Valorous might help with that.
Radiant Strike – Clear utility and identity, wonderful as it is.
Encounter Powers:
I feel like all encounters are dealing way too much damage, a clear example is that two Smites deal as much damage as one Divine Judgment, even though dailies are already much slower to fill.
Burning Light and Bane – I don't think 3 second stun of Burning Light compensate for the three times more damage that Bane has.
Bane should have more damage for having a Divinity cost, indeed, but I think a magnitude of 300 should surface, otherwise the massive DPS increase of one will overshadow the utility and usability of the another.
Also, Burning Light still has the "hold to increase effect" cast barr, despite having no difference between casting it instantly and charging for the 2 secs.
Sacred Weapon – Should be an interesting (free) damaging encounter if you are saving Divinity for something else. I only used it for the regen effect though, it seem to have a bad synergy with Divine Fulmination because of its lower attack-rate.
Smite – It has WAY too much magnitude, it is as a mini-daily power. I really like that it is ranged now, though.
If any changes to divinity regen get done, I would like to see it as a way to dump excessive divinity into a bit of damage.
Divine Touch and Divine Shelter – I am aware of the massive range difference between the two, but having almost the same spell effect with just some range difference seem... a bit lame.
Also, there is a weird interaction between the shields, sometimes using a bigger shield on the smaller one will decrease it, and sometimes stack together, I really do not understand it.
Circle of Power – In my honest opinion, the visual effect of this skill is HIGHLY misleading.
The area is gold with shields floating around it, if I didn't know better I would surely think it is a damage reducing/shielding area that I should stay inside. I don't think a simple self-buff that only the paladin has to stay inside should be this eye-catching.
Just removing the rotating shields and/or turning down the yellow shine should help, but it is still a bit of a underwhelming encounter.
Daily Powers
I believe Sanctuary completely overshadows Shield of Faith, giving more damage reduction than it plus a heal over time effect.
It would be nice if they filled different niches, like one for shielding/damage reduction and another for a heal over time.
Feats
Honestly, both tank and healers feats are... kinda messy.
One of the biggest offenders is some Feats giving effects to skills you haven't even unlocked yet, which make the decision making really frustrating.
While some feat in DPS jobs feel really meaningful and change your playstyle completely, like arcane vs elemental wizard, most of the healers' feats feels like you are just upgrading random encounters that you might or might not even like or use.
I really would like to see some play style defining encounters, something like "you shield for more" vs "your shields heal if they expire" instead of choosing between the lesser of two evils
I will not even talk about Class Features because I have always found them a bit underwhelming, but I feel like they are a wasted opportunity for choosing two core characteristics for your playstyle among many kinda like what Feats are trying to do right now.
In my small experience of leveling from 70 to 72 and doing two easy dungeons ( Cragmire Crypt and Kessel's Retreat ) I still feel like power creep is the biggest problem in the game, specially in low level content. Just following the party while watching them burst everything in seconds is really frustrating, both for tanks that can't keep aggro because of the overwhelming damage of the party and for a healers that doesn't have nothing to heal.
I suppose this flow of dungeons can be really discouraging for new players.
Again, sorry for the long post!
So while you might feel like divinity is slow, if divinity regeneration were sped up, the damage on those encounters would have to be reduced to compensate.
To compensate what exactly? Perhaps to compensate me that my 18k+ Paladin who costs millions of AD and hundreds if not thousands of euros if you convert it to real world currency can now perform the same as a 11k GF alt who is only used on Live to farm weekly AD quests?!
Is that what you're gonna compesate for? Please get real. I copied my 11.5k alt GF to Preview, specced it for damage, he is just as tough as my 18k Paladin/justicar and he does more damage, spamming dailies like they are at wills. This is in Dread Ring btw both of them. What kind of internal testing are you doing? What is your vision for the Paladin class? How can you make the Fighter so much better, I mean I know the GF has always had more damage capability than the Paladin but now you nerf one while the other is still going strong?! Why is a 18 000 points in item level Justicar performance solo in Dread Ring below the performance of 11 500 item level alt Figter ? Im so pissed right now I might even get a recording software and make some videos of both, then, perhaps you can tell me @asterdahl how come 6000+ difference in item level means nothing and a much less geared Fighter/with half the boons inactive/ outperforms a bis (bis for lvl 70) Justicar ?
I might but I won't, because honestly ,making videos to prove a point requires time I dont have. What you and your company wont have however are my money.
PS: I think you need help. I think you and your fellow dev team are in over your heads. Better call your CEO to get @getlemancrash on board part time , at least while you ship m16. He used to know what a Paladin feel like.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Did a 4 man eToS, all toons lvl 70, the 3 of us close to 19k in preview with the guild boons, one 15k.
my stats
As I understand one encounter power is occupied by templar's wrath (divinity) you can't risk losing aggro and that is the only area aggro tool that you don't need to wait 20 secs to cast, no options there.
For encounter powers (and always for group play)
Burning light = useless
sacred weapon to buff my pitiful damage = useless
relentless avenger = pitiful
binding oath = even more pitiful
Vow of enmity = 1st candidate to open the encounter and get aggro quickly
absolution = 2nd candidate for extra protection
So you either go with these two encounters or you replace one for the almighty smite (for personal joy) that you cannot risk frequent use and run out of templar's wrath.
Now pls @asterdahl tell me what motivation do I have to build my character. In the image above there are almost 180k offensive stats for what? for the "your oath strikes deals 365 damage"?
Justicar paladin feels pathetic I was really sad after these runs.
Since you tank a lot as you mentioned how do you feel that 80% of your stats means nothing, absolutely nothing.
How do you feel that you have 180k stats that you don't use since you re like block, templar's, block and sometimes smite.
So pls give encounters a purpose, make encounters with low or zero magnitude with utility that won't take ages to reload.
Make again every stat count.
I'm having a terrible time holding agro still even when I use all agro abilities and hit first with vow at a distance. If a Barbarian dps is with me, they constantly take agro, same with dps Cleric. DPS and tanking seems to be backwards. Tanks are squishy but do damage and dps'ers are tanking and some are doing less damage. My stats are pretty high in my opinion and I understand dev team is aware something wonky is happening. Just figured I'd share more. It took me 9 minutes to solo Master of the Hunt. Went in with a healing cleric and a dps cleric and it took us 8 minutes. We were all level 80 in a level 64 skirmish. Seemed a little harsh.
I did a Castle Never with a Hunter Ranger, a Healing Cleric, and a dps Cleric and we had a much harder time on the trash mobs than bosses. Orcus died before he put his arms up once... but demons were slaughtering us.
Guild Hall, beast attack mobs are normal rating above their heads while Lake (another tier 1 HE) the orc all have elite epic dungeon icons above their heads.
Tigers, I can't for the life of me take agro back from them if they are out unless I'm alone. Also when I'm attacking training dummies or groups of mobs, my tiger doesn't attack the one I'm on, he moves to a different one and constantly wants to be beside me even when I try to flank to get combat advantage triggered.
Thanks for listening to us on these issues, it means a lot.
Shielding Strike does not have a description yet. I am only lvl 71 so it's not unlocked, however when I click on Heroism, which is also not unlocked, I can see the full description of what it does.
More feedback on powers to come shortly.