Pls let us choose our role on random queue

devilxjk · January 2019

Pls let us choose our role on random queue.

underwmd · January 2019

I concur, it would be nice to be able to have defined roles in the dungeons instead of a free for all....guessing whom is the actual tank, healer etc.

majorcharvenak · January 2019

Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.

wintersmoke · January 2019

majorcharvenak said:
Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.

That would work well with the recent suggestion to let any character use skill kits to access other classes abilities...

plasticbat · January 2019

You may as well get rid of role restriction and class bonus. Just go back to what it was before.

ecrana · January 2019

I don't even know why we have classes or paragons. Or races. Eliminate all of those and we would reduce class balance issues substantially.

klangeddin · January 2019

majorcharvenak said:
Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.

DPS DCs might actually even work, I mean, they'd take a dps slot and actually do buffing, so you could end up with 2 DCs in a random queue (one DO and one AC), which is not all that bad. Even if it's no longer the supreme meta it used to be.

The problem would be if you ended up with 4 DCs though, now that would be hilarious.

pitmonster · January 2019

For runs less then epic I would turn off the class restrictions because outside of Spell Plague (which I still refuse to do as its a total waste of time and lack ROI) you don't need the classes.

majorcharvenak · January 2019

Why do I get the feeling that while this might seem like an interesting idea, in practice it would be a nightmare?

namelesshero347 · January 2019

klangeddin said:

majorcharvenak said:
Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.
DPS DCs might actually even work, I mean, they'd take a dps slot and actually do buffing.

My DODC is the forth DPS in RIQ and is quite the DPS goddess. Well, except for CN when I get four 4-digit iLvl players. Then I have to go AC and actually protect and heal because it's not worth soloing orcus.

kiraskytower · January 2019

namelesshero347 said:

klangeddin said:

majorcharvenak said:
Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.
DPS DCs might actually even work, I mean, they'd take a dps slot and actually do buffing.
My DODC is the forth DPS in RIQ and is quite the DPS goddess. Well, except for CN when I get four 4-digit iLvl players. Then I have to go AC and actually protect and heal because it's not worth soloing orcus.

This is exactly why this is a REALLY bad idea .... in an instant we will be back to the 2 DC meta again and the other "buff" types will suddenly become much less welcome in most parties.

silvershard · January 2019

kiraskytower said:

namelesshero347 said:

klangeddin said:

majorcharvenak said:
Sure. Bring on the HR tanks, TR healers and Faithful DPS DC's.
DPS DCs might actually even work, I mean, they'd take a dps slot and actually do buffing.
My DODC is the forth DPS in RIQ and is quite the DPS goddess. Well, except for CN when I get four 4-digit iLvl players. Then I have to go AC and actually protect and heal because it's not worth soloing orcus.

This is exactly why this is a REALLY bad idea .... in an instant we will be back to the 2 DC meta again and the other "buff" types will suddenly become much less welcome in most parties.

Yeah, I think people often reach a certain point in the game and forget that anyone else is still working their way toward that point.
Lots of people still DO need healers, and a good Tank to keep from getting squished. Not everyone can survive everything there is out there.
I often find that when 12.6K players appear in CR that they certainly DO need a Tank and a Healer to survive even the fight before the drawbridge. (It all usually goes sideways as soon as the Sisters appear, but that's down to group composition on PUG as much as anything)

I think that rather than do away with requirements altogether, or allow anyone to choose to be whatever is currently advertised as giving a rAD bonus, they make the required roles more available. So you can have a SW queue as Healer, or a GWF queue as Tank, depending on their build.

It is also essential that it is possible to complete content using the standard group composition, and not require a meta group that rules most PUGS out of contention.

The recent "Class Balance" hasn't seen any real development or amendment since it went to Preview for player assessment. So they either think it is perfect as is, or it is still half finished. It needs finishing, with group composition/balance as a major point of focus for their attention. Otherwise Random Expert Groups will continue to be a farce.

Due to my work, and different time zones, I often find myself playing when my Guild and alliance chums are in bed or at work themselves, so I have to try PUGs if I want to run Dungeons. (That's a quick caveat just to pre-empt the inevitable angry "Go get some friends!" replies that seem to be lining up ready to object to anyone who wants PUG runs to be fun as well.)

namelesshero347 · January 2019

silvershard#4275 said:

I often find that when 12.6K players appear in CR that they certainly DO need a Tank and a Healer to survive even the fight before the drawbridge. (It all usually goes sideways as soon as the Sisters appear, but that's down to group composition on PUG as much as anything)

Every group needs a tank in CR. And if you had a healer instead of a buffer, it will be impossible to finish. The first two bosses have a DPS check where a healer is of no use. And for the final boss, debuffs is more important or many hits will be one-shots and healers can't heal those.

silvershard · January 2019

namelesshero347 said:

silvershard#4275 said:

I often find that when 12.6K players appear in CR that they certainly DO need a Tank and a Healer to survive even the fight before the drawbridge. (It all usually goes sideways as soon as the Sisters appear, but that's down to group composition on PUG as much as anything)
Every group needs a tank in CR. And if you had a healer instead of a buffer, it will be impossible to finish. The first two bosses have a DPS check where a healer is of no use. And for the final boss, debuffs is more important or many hits will be one-shots and healers can't heal those.

Which is precisely why the class balancing needs to focus just as much on effective group composition as it does on which class tops the paingiver chart.
I've barely landed in a CR group where even the first boss is beatable. While a lot of that is down to too many players with bogus IL its also down to the 3.1.1 group composition of PUG queues.

If you aren't in a position to form a premade, the chance of completing on PUG needs to be higher than slim to none.

I'm not sure if the change to IL, removing certain Guild Boons in queues did happen, and maybe that is the reason that so many PUG players seem to be getting in with sub 13K IL, but that needs looking at. CR is hard enough to PUG, its practically impossible if you are carrying even one player.

Perhaps they could add extra queues to the list that offer different group make ups instead of all being 3.1.1?
It would mean less Random bonus rAD but you might land a better chance in the dungeon.

vorphied · January 2019

My theory is that there is too much of a gap between the performance of the "average" player and the top X%.

Other games have far more complex mechanics even in "normal" content, and they are sometimes very challenging when first released. However, once more players gain experience with the mechanics, they have the required DPS, mitigation, healing, and overall tools to deal with them even if they lack the very best possible gear and skill.

This game has so many options for build customization that inexperienced players are presented with a number of "false" choices that can completely ruin the way their character performs. In a game with more linear build choices, the devs can essentially guarantee that player median performance won't be THAT bad; in this game, the average player is objectively terrible compared to the standard that's apparently expected to reasonably complete the top tier dungeons and trials.

I think the devs should continue to work on improving underperforming class/path combinations and should strive to eliminate blatant newbie-traps from feat trees. Not every option has to be amazing, but ideally none of them should be outright worthless. A number of powers for each class could also stand another pass for usefulness to improve the experience of the less-seasoned player so that they suffer less for unwittingly choosing a "bad" loadout.

namelesshero347 · January 2019

silvershard#4275 said:

I'm not sure if the change to IL, removing certain Guild Boons in queues did happen, and maybe that is the reason that so many PUG players seem to be getting in with sub 13K IL, but that needs looking at. CR is hard enough to PUG, its practically impossible if you are carrying even one player.

You see a lower iLvl because either their companion went down since they enqueued or their companion did not appear in the instance yet. My pet adds well over 2K to my iLvl. I always unsummon it before going into REQ so if I land in CR, someone might see a poor 13K DC and decide to leave, saving me the leave penalty

I've been in a run where one 17K GWF (backed by great tanking and buffing of course) carried the group to the final boss. Sadly, three people cannot do strahd. Even the carries need scrolls to stay alive because if the only DPS gets taken, the run is over.

giz · January 2019

Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.

pitmonster · January 2019

namelesshero347 said:

silvershard#4275 said:

I often find that when 12.6K players appear in CR that they certainly DO need a Tank and a Healer to survive even the fight before the drawbridge. (It all usually goes sideways as soon as the Sisters appear, but that's down to group composition on PUG as much as anything)
Every group needs a tank in CR. And if you had a healer instead of a buffer, it will be impossible to finish. The first two bosses have a DPS check where a healer is of no use. And for the final boss, debuffs is more important or many hits will be one-shots and healers can't heal those.

And you just illustrated just how the devs have destroyed the healer class with every new boss fight. Some people like some of the new boss fights, frankly I find them as gimmicky and lazy game mechanics. One shots, tight and closed off fighting arena areas, blasts of control affects on players while no control allowed on bosses, one shot kills, etc.

callumf · January 2019

vorphied said:
This game has so many options for build customization that inexperienced players are presented with a number of "false" choices that can completely ruin the way their character performs. In a game with more linear build choices, the devs can essentially guarantee that player median performance won't be THAT bad; in this game, the average player is objectively terrible compared to the standard that's apparently expected to reasonably complete the top tier dungeons and trials.

As a casual but relatively experienced player, I can quote this for truth. This game [builds characters classes enchants boons powers] is bewilderingly complicated at times.

pitmonster · January 2019

callumf#9018 said:

vorphied said:

As a casual but relatively experienced player, I can quote this for truth. This game [builds characters classes enchants boons powers] is bewilderingly complicated at times.
Ha, you want complicated, try Path of Exile. Even your powers are mod'able and can be changed dramatically.

devilxjk · January 2019

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.

trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

pitmonster · January 2019

devilxjk said:

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.
trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

The sub-par DPS paths on classes like clerics and pallies I assume are to allow you to finish up your solo content. One of the reasons OPs got a boost with the solo class feature.

majorcharvenak · January 2019

pitmonster#5684 said:

devilxjk said:

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.
trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

The sub-par DPS paths on classes like clerics and pallies I assume are to allow you to finish up your solo content. One of the reasons OPs got a boost with the solo class feature.

BINGO! And would add that neither of those paths (even after the boost) are adequate to even being remotely competitive to a DPS-class of the same skill and near IL to carry a party through in the DPS slot. You want my support job of healer/buffer/tank - have at it and good luck with that. Just don't expect me (as a support class) to do your job as nearly as effective as YOU (a DPS class) doing your job.

All that being said, if folks want to see how this would look and play out, recommend the devs remove the role restrictions for the intermediate queues like they do the leveling. I suspect it wouldn't be a dicey proposition if you have at least one high IL whale to carry folks through, but it will probably be a whole other matter if everyone is at or near min IL. My two coppers.

kiraskytower · January 2019

devilxjk said:

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.
trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

So ... tell me exactly what makes an AC Cleric a better "Healer" than a DO Cleric?? Both are more than capable of healing the party with things like Diving Glow or Bastion or even healing word .... Now it may be true that an AC Cleric with a decently high power makes a better buffer due to power sharing, but lets not forget that a DO Cleric can still buff with things like Hallowed Ground, Break The Spirit, and Divine Glow. Terrifying insight (though nerfed) is also a nice buff for the party ... as can be things like foresight or Astral shield (if you need more defensive buffs). DO may be a more DPSy path for the cleric than AC .... but at the end of the day you are still a cleric and even a DO can be an excellent "healer" (or even buffer).

cforest · January 2019

My AC gets outhealed regularly by High Crit/High Crit Severity DOs.

vorphied · January 2019

pitmonster#5684 said:

devilxjk said:

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.
trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

The sub-par DPS paths on classes like clerics and pallies I assume are to allow you to finish up your solo content. One of the reasons OPs got a boost with the solo class feature.

I strongly dislike this reasoning as it pertains to DO DC since DO was already an effortless trash compactor and did not need any enhancements to its solo-friendliness.

It's also true that a DPS DO can exceed what a (properly buff-focused) AC is putting out in terms of healing thanks in large part to Repurpose Soul.

wintersmoke · January 2019

majorcharvenak said:

pitmonster#5684 said:

devilxjk said:

giz#2086 said:
Sure, i want to choose to queue as healer on my GWF.
trolling... always fun, but if you have an healer path you should be able to choose it, and a DO is a dps path and it should be able to dps enough. moreover do you prefear a DO on healer spot or a DO on dps spot?
it's like you have a do path, but you cant use it...why? delete it or let me play it
the problem is the BAD balance.
so balance and let me play what i wanna play, not what the queue said i have to play.
perfect setup? go private queue.

The sub-par DPS paths on classes like clerics and pallies I assume are to allow you to finish up your solo content. One of the reasons OPs got a boost with the solo class feature.

BINGO! And would add that neither of those paths (even after the boost) are adequate to even being remotely competitive to a DPS-class of the same skill and near IL to carry a party through in the DPS slot. You want my support job of healer/buffer/tank - have at it and good luck with that. Just don't expect me (as a support class) to do your job as nearly as effective as YOU (a DPS class) doing your job.

All that being said, if folks want to see how this would look and play out, recommend the devs remove the role restrictions for the intermediate queues like they do the leveling. I suspect it wouldn't be a dicey proposition if you have at least one high IL whale to carry folks through, but it will probably be a whole other matter if everyone is at or near min IL. My two coppers.

Ahem. "I didn't spend thousands of dollars and/or hours clawing my way to BIS, just so I could carry a bunch of HAMSTERS thru easy content!"

strathkin · January 2019

I remember seeing a DEV comment suggest possibly MOD 16 may allow more granular selection so even Warlocks would possibly be considered Healers. Yet I don't know if their looking still just expanding which roles each Class can fill; as that would really likely just result in as many problems as now.

Hopefully they are looking not just at particular Paragon selections, but also the Feat Path (Capstone) choice to ultimately decide. *fingers crossed*

silverkelt · January 2019

Ahem. "I didn't spend thousands of dollars and/or hours clawing my way to BIS, just so I could carry a bunch of HAMSTERS thru easy content!"

jeepers..

does no one use alliance/guild channels.. just everyone pops in random then starts blaming everyone for everything..

random queues are the worst of the worst.. and every mmo I ever played proves that..

majorcharvenak · January 2019

I think @wintersmoke was being tongue in cheek, @silverkelt. I could be wrong though. My point, in my response, was that certain classes tend to be better in specific roles than other ones. Now with respect to the use guild/alliance channels, you know as well as I do that there are multiple reasons why that might not always be an option so...just have to pop in a random and hope for the best.

wintersmoke · January 2019

majorcharvenak said:
I think @wintersmoke was being tongue in cheek, @silverkelt. I could be wrong though. My point, in my response, was that certain classes tend to be better in specific roles than other ones. Now with respect to the use guild/alliance channels, you know as well as I do that there are multiple reasons why that might not always be an option so...just have to pop in a random and hope for the best.

why yeth, my tongue wath tucked firmly in my cheek. Thank you for notithing. Unfortunately, I theem to have bitten mythelf. Ouchieth. THorry…. ahem, sorry about that. I was just thinking that an awful lot of conversations about content seem to boil down to two points of view. Younger (newer), more casual, or weaker players tend to complain about not having access to content, and being unable to make a meaningful contribution. Older, grindier, and stronger players tend to complain about having to carry a bunch of skroobs through easy, boring content over & over & why can't we gat a little challenge around here, anywayth. Anyways. It seems to me that if we start building content with the goal being, from the very beginning, that some players will not be able to complete it without a "carry", then the shelf life of that content will expire even faster than it normally does.

Pls let us choose our role on random queue

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