Even if in Mod 15 CWs hit harder than they do in the current mod, that will not catapult them to the upper echelon of DPSers.
If you try to play CW like you would in Mod 14, you will be disappointed. If you change up your strategy and use some of the reworked abilities, you will be surprised at the damage that is possible.
I can't see CW being as strong as Mod 15 GF in a perfect play party (6 Griffons, anyone?).
However, I can see CW being slightly under GWF, or, if the CW is extremely good, as good as GWF.
GF are one trick ponies that can easily loose damage when running with a DC that runs cleanse.
With that said the CW would surpass the GF in damage as the GF damage nose dives really fast due to the fact that the GF needs to be damage to produce damage. And as I pointed out in other threads that the setup many GF run for DPS is designed to hold threat but the design is being abused by many to pull out some serious damage in content. Though a DC trolling a GF can really make a good GF look bad, I know I have done it a few times now on purpose.
As for CW vs GF; when a GF cannot do there rotation due to cleanse a CW can surpass a GF in damage. In fact, a well built CW can do really good damage wise but a CW is not in the same category as a GWF damage wise.
What I am wondering with the CW mod 15 changes is how does a CW compare to a SW, HR and TR for damage. These were the classes with the biggest changes and I'm wondering how close these classes are to each other damage wise. Are we talking 5% or is there such a difference that HR Combat is way superior to TR, SW and CW DPS builds. And for TR, SW and CW are there damage similar or does a TR dps build do more, SW do more or CW do more and if more how much?
These are the things we need to look at to see if SW, TR and CW damage output is the new standard going forward and if so, expect GF, HR Combat and GWF to be adjusted?
At this point everything is speculation until we got our hands on mod 16. Until that time, I guess my time with NWO will be spent working on upgrading my GF as my CW and DC are nearly done with my DC not really needing much and my CW needing the new head piece in mod 15.
OPPRESSIVE FORCE - is not affected by feat Uncontrolled Obliteration, is not affected by feat Arcane Enhancement, Arcane power field will not affect the second hit OF and all others incl. the last one OF. ARCANE SINGULARITY - is not affected by feat Arcane Enhancement SPELL STORM - is not affected by feat Uncontrolled Obliteration (smolder is affected)
Dear developers! Control Wizard. Please fix the work already "Spell Twisting" with "Icy Rays: Spell Mastery" Does not work( Does not work and "Destructive Wizardry". Thanks for attention !
ARCANE SINGULARITY - is not affected by Arcane stack (only her first arcane stack works, the other 4 do not work), Arcane power field will not affect the hit of the Arcane Singularity.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited November 2018
DEVs somehow break creeping frost and warped magics? Bombarding mobs with cold attacks, and creeping frost simply will not proc. 25% chance!!!
Warped magics can't crit btw. Just another hamper for this terrible damage tree.
When i say this, i put my hand on my heart and i speak for all CW's out there. What is this change to Control Wizard?
I get it, you wanted to change things in the class to make other things more viable allowing us to have more options. Sure, im all for that. I get that you wanted to make sure we weren't stuck going down one path of feats, and stuck with Chilling Presence as our only option. I commend that notion, however its worked out ironically quite the opposite.
We just went from being stuck in Oppressor, to now being stuck in the Renegade path? We now just lost half the dps from chilling presence and we are still using chilling presence because that other garbage you changed, ( arcane presence, evocation..etc) is absolutely awful and is COMPLETELY disconnected from the class. Gentlemen, How am i going to stack arcane presence in a sensible manner in order for it to actually benefit me? Seriously, go do a double take on it and think about it, then come back to me on that one. I'm not here to bash you guys, i'm here on behalf of the community of CW's and the passionate people that play this game. Understand that please. I want to be level with you guys here.
Here's something that every, and i mean EVERY control wizard would absolutely kill for. An actual purpose within the game. As a CW you cant even play the game because there is no self respecting players that would ever have a CW in their 5 man party because anything a CW can do, other classes do it way way way better. thats the damn truth and reality of it. So ask yourselves, if im a control wizard and nobody wants one in their party... how exactly do you play the game? solo i guess?
Lets go through the list of actual usefulness the CW has:
DPS- sub par to other classes but not too bad. ( emphasis on not too bad)
Thats it. it ends there. You see, because thats the only thing we can actually do half way decently, we get out shined by the classes who do that very well. There is about 3 or 4 other classes that do it better. So we are pretty low on that totem poll. Not to mention there is an overflow of dps players, and heres a hint. They aren't playing CW.
Heres the point i want to send home. GIVE US A PURPOSE. A reason for CW to be needed in a party. A vital role. Thats truly what we want. Im not asking for a dps increase necessarily. Maybe give us ways we can buff our party in a meaningful way. Dont do it through renegade capstone. Give us powers or a entire tree that is based around providing MEANINGFUL buffs.
Overall, playing this class just makes you want to change classes or just leave the game completely. Hopelessness is the only word that can truly describe the agony that every CW feels when they play the game. Talk to any CW in the game. If you want player feedback or need help finding a way to do these things to give CW a purpose then, just reach out to the community. There is so many players that would be more than willing to help and provide meaningful and worthwhile feedback.
Thank you for you time. Please understand our passion for this class. This is a cry for help. Don't gaff this off as some biased player whining. This is truly how the community feels. (and yes i can speak on the half of the community because things are so bad, you would have to be an idiot to actually think CW is relevant in any sense. Facts.)
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2018
Another player that does not know how to play cw easy mode = off lol I am doing massive damage this mod more damage then i ever did before and unless a well equipped gwf is there i always get top first place in damage
> @kalina311 said: > Another player that does not know how to play cw easy mode = off lol > I am doing massive damage this mod more damage then i ever did before > and unless a well equipped gwf is there i always get top first place in damage
Out of curiosity, which Boss and AoE setups have you gone with since Mod 15? I haven’t spent enough time with my CW since the rework and wouldn’t mind some inspiration.
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2018
For starters i a took full renegade part thum hybrid if you dont have a lot of recovery and or recovery enchants then you still are going to want spell twisting 2 or 3 point and 1 or 2 in elemental empowerment
also there is a lot of gear that offer bonuses when you are in party that is the gear I favor there are a few straight up %%damage bonus damage elemental companions and regular ones ..and the damage increase the more companion that you have that are epic ..your damage increase and stacks further 16% /8%/ 4%/ 2% and 1%
try poping a watermelon sorbet and the guild foods that adds more power and drinking a crit potion +1000 +2000 more crit / also the crit potion from invoking adds more critical severity ..potions and consumables are a very cheap way to boost up your damage without investing heavily in enchantments / or companions
also taking the guild power boon also having rank 11 -14 bonding stones helps the most and power enchantments on your main companion there are mount bonuses that based on your power perform and buff you better as well
etc etc but at 1300 post i sure you must know plenty of people that can help you with your cw and you probably know half of what i said anyways
what i said i universal regardless of loadouts
end game people want cws as a buffer debuffer and not a damage dealer tho
ray of enfeeble on tab for debuffs or disintegrate if the boss is low on hitpoints companion damage/ bonuses occur more on the cw when the boss is at 50% hit points or less also due to the first thum feet giving bonus damage when enemy is below 35% and elemental fire companion passive bonus doing more damage to opponents below 50% the other elemental earth i belive doing damage to oppenant that have less then 100% health siegemaster is also good 3% more damage tiger is good as well 5% more damage all of these work together
there are quite a few boons that increase damage alot rampaging madness comes to mind
again i have all the boons and am in a level 20 guild most player do not have that luxury
my item level is 18000 c w... yes i will get beat in damage in party with a 14-15k item level gf / or gwfs that know what they are doing .. but in a pug random Queue almost never
cw can be expensive to gear at end game in order to compete
I will not be going into full loadout details as that will take hours of my time to write and i dont really do guides i am a holdover pvp cw from the old days I am sure someone will correct some of the thing i say / find errors as everyone has thier own personal style etc
and perhaps this belongs in the cws section not the preview section
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited December 2018
cw damage is alot more about gear and enchants and companions / and buffing yourself with whatever you can eat and drink then loadouts and setups cause you cannot switch loadouts/ change gear while you are in combat anyways its locked unless you disengage and then you are doing 0 dps anyways granted tho can do it at the campfire before the boss // and switch powers on the fly in combat usually the one in the tab position
For starters i a took full renegade part thum hybrid if you dont have a lot of recovery and or recovery enchants then you still are going to want spell twisting 2 or 3 point and 1 or 2 in elemental empowerment
also there is a lot of gear that offer bonuses when you are in party that is the gear I favor there are a few straight up %%damage bonus damage elemental companions and regular ones ..and the damage increase the more companion that you have that are epic ..your damage increase and stacks further 16% /8%/ 4%/ 2% and 1%
try poping a watermelon sorbet and the guild foods that adds more power and drinking a crit potion +1000 +2000 more crit / also the crit potion from invoking adds more critical severity ..potions and consumables are a very cheap way to boost up your damage without investing heavily in enchantments / or companions
also taking the guild power boon also having rank 11 -14 bonding stones helps the most and power enchantments on your main companion there are mount bonuses that based on your power perform and buff you better as well
etc etc but at 1300 post i sure you must know plenty of people that can help you with your cw and you probably know half of what i said anyways
what i said i universal regardless of loadouts
end game people want cws as a buffer debuffer and not a damage dealer tho
ray of enfeeble on tab for debuffs or disintegrate if the boss is low on hitpoints companion damage/ bonuses occur more on the cw when the boss is at 50% hit points or less also due to the first thum feet giving bonus damage when enemy is below 35% and elemental fire companion passive bonus doing more damage to opponents below 50% the other elemental earth i belive doing damage to oppenant that have less then 100% health siegemaster is also good 3% more damage tiger is good as well 5% more damage all of these work together
there are quite a few boons that increase damage alot rampaging madness comes to mind
again i have all the boons and am in a level 20 guild most player do not have that luxury
my item level is 18000 c w... yes i will get beat in damage in party with a 14-15k item level gf / or gwfs that know what they are doing .. but in a pug random Queue almost never
cw can be expensive to gear at end game in order to compete
I will not be going into full loadout details as that will take hours of my time to write and i dont really do guides i am a holdover pvp cw from the old days I am sure someone will correct some of the thing i say / find errors as everyone has thier own personal style etc
and perhaps this belongs in the cws section not the preview section
GF's are broken currently. Once fixed CW will be just as good if not better. I mean who doesn't want a free 100% buff in game without doing anything other than using the shield for a few hits.
As for GWF, if you are getting beat by a 15k GWF than the class is not fine period. The difference damage wise between a properly build character at 15-18K should not be that much but a 18K IL dps should always out damage the lower IL player UNLESS the DC / OP Devo is buffing them with Exh or Bane, otherwise the higher IL should be higher on the damage board.
Overall the CW is not in a bad spot but given the changes in mod 15 the class now requires more out of the player to manage for stacks and that has really pushed the class to be a skilled class. Coming from other games, when a class took more skill to play the reward for playing such a class was HIGHER damage than other classes. What I keep hearing is that CW is not in the HIGHER damage zone, proof of a 18K CW being beat by a 15k GWF.
In mod 14 my bull on Thaum (yeah I ran one through t9) at 17.6K il keeps up with 16k GWF. A 17k GWF beats me hands down almost every time, rarely am I not beaten by a 17k GWF. TR, SW and HR anyone within 1.5K il below me tends also to be me or keep up with my CW. The CW in mod 14 was the worst DPS in the game and mod 15 from my understanding is that it really doesn't change.
Like I stated if the new feat in Renegade was moved to Thaum CW would actually be a good DPS. Maybe the devs didn't move it because they were concerned that CW would beat GWF regularly if they did this; well if the class takes more skill to play than a GWF, well CW should be producing more damage than a GWF.
So far what I have seen with NWO is that the easier the class is to play the more damage it does.
Combat HR is easier to play than Trapper yet Combat does more damage. GWF and GF both are fairly easy to play compared to a TR other than mod 14 GWF and GF both produce more damage than a TR SW and CW both take a bit to ensure you are playing the class to its full potential and CW gets even more added to it in mod 15 and yet CW is not even near the same category damage wise as the easier classes are.
Honestly if a class takes more to play to achieve its max damage potential the reward should match the extra effort. Unfortunately the devs miss the mark with the CW and a quick fix that I though would have made it happen was moving that new feat from Renegade to Thaum.
I'm still excited because now I will have a PVP build, 3 PVE builds and one unused loadout that I will probably use for testing an idea I have for the Thaum path.
Now that I have time to play CW the past week here is my impression of the CW changes...
Oppressor
Buffer: I disagree using Oppressor as a buffer as I am not seeing control momentum going off a second time after I use a control ability after the 6 seconds have passed from the first control momentum on the same target; it seems once control momentum goes off on an enemy it cannot process again unless you have a new target.
DPS: I have to say that MoF running Evocation and Chilling Presence with the Shatter Strike capstone this is now my favorite AoE DPS build. At first I was not sure how this would work out but OMG it produces some good damage. Better than I expected. I use Entangling Force on Tab, Fanning the Flame, Icy Terran, and Steal Time. This build does wonderfully IMO as a AoE dps.
Thaumaturge Buffer: Not a chance
DPS: I like running a SS Thaum/Opp build and it overall out performs the renegade build from what I have experience. The feats that are need to make this build shine are Transcendent Master, Chilling Control, and Destructive Wizardry. Encounters used are Icy Ray on tab, Sudden Storm, Entangling Force/Repel/RoE, and disintegrate and like all other single target build you use chilling presence and arcane power field.
This build is getting a constant 25% damage buff for Icy Ray and with spell twisting I go from 3 seconds on my disintegrate to an average of 2 seconds. Typically through 2 rotations I gain 1 extra disintegrate. That is roughly 10M+ in bonus damage when compared to the Renegade build just from the disintegrate; this does not include the damage increase you would get from other abilities.
Renegade:
Buffer: This build IMO is the best way to go until control momentum can be fixed for Oppressor. Running MoF with Combustive Action and Swath, RoE on tab, etc... is IMO the best buffing CW build we have currently have. The only way I would run Oppressor is for speed runs with ST on tab and the feat to buff the group speed and even with that setup I think Renegade is a better buffer over Oppressor.
DPS: Due to what I have seen with this build I think it is closer to what we had with MoF/SS Oppressor in mod 13/14 as a hybrid build due to the buffs from Chaos Magic. I do recommend having at least a SS or MoF single target Renegade build as I only recommend running the Thaum build if there are other CWs in the group; otherwise run Renegade to help buff the group.
Overall I have seen a very good bump in CW damage and I over all I'm pleasantly surprised.
Ran some CoDG as a full Renegade buffer and I have seen around 50-100M buff in my damage in the buff group. I'm typically now surpassing 400-500M in damage whereas before my damage was typically below 400M in damage.
Mod 16 my wish list....
1) Move the damage feats from Renegade to Thaum - Phantasmal Destruction and Uncontrolled Obliteration - this would make Thaum the true DPS path for CW.
2) Move control momentum to Renegade
3) Move power surge to Oppressor
4) Allow Thaum abilities that cannot be buffed to be buffed - adjust damage bonus based on these changes
5) Fix Control Momentum to process off any control ability, refreshing the prior use, not stacking but refreshing. Right now I see it drop and not refreshing if I use a control ability after 6 seconds have passed. For instance I use Icy Ray and it hit a target it causes Control Momentum to proc than 7 seconds later I use it again on the same target and nothing happens.
1) Move the damage feats from Renegade to Thaum - Phantasmal Destruction and Uncontrolled Obliteration - this would make Thaum the true DPS path for CW.
2) Move control momentum to Renegade
3) Move power surge to Oppressor
4) Allow Thaum abilities that cannot be buffed to be buffed - adjust damage bonus based on these changes
5) Fix Control Momentum to process off any control ability, refreshing the prior use, not stacking but refreshing. Right now I see it drop and not refreshing if I use a control ability after 6 seconds have passed. For instance I use Icy Ray and it hit a target it causes Control Momentum to proc than 7 seconds later I use it again on the same target and nothing happens.
Would make sense but only if other classes get proper balance. One MoF is usually still the choice and it won't go away.
The way things are now for CW's I can't really imagine anything better, except that SS paragon also gets proper debuff options so that people do not think bad about SSCW in general. Had encounters where ppl simply never knew that CW can do burst damage w spellstorm.
Parties with 2 x CWs seem to preform rather well, especially with HR/GF/DC combo.
Balance is still way out there for top content. DC+OP is still the most viable thing to choose from.
I am happy to see HRs being slightly more invited in parties nowadays, and not just as DPS.
TRs have been properly introduced as Boss Killers with SoD. However, sometimes it is unpredictable in the heat of the moment, and can easily do far more damage than intended (not that good in SpellPlague).
Overall CW's are in a rather good position at the moment, and thaumaturge should be carefully examined in contrast to other classes in order to be viable as a DPS-only build, for which I believe that people generally won't really accept as much as they will accept a debuffer such as Rene/MoF or even Rene/SS.
Oppressor should not interfere with skills of other CWs in the team, specifically chill stacks. That makes no sense.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1) Move the damage feats from Renegade to Thaum - Phantasmal Destruction and Uncontrolled Obliteration - this would make Thaum the true DPS path for CW.
2) Move control momentum to Renegade
3) Move power surge to Oppressor
4) Allow Thaum abilities that cannot be buffed to be buffed - adjust damage bonus based on these changes
5) Fix Control Momentum to process off any control ability, refreshing the prior use, not stacking but refreshing. Right now I see it drop and not refreshing if I use a control ability after 6 seconds have passed. For instance I use Icy Ray and it hit a target it causes Control Momentum to proc than 7 seconds later I use it again on the same target and nothing happens.
Would make sense but only if other classes get proper balance. One MoF is usually still the choice and it won't go away.
The way things are now for CW's I can't really imagine anything better, except that SS paragon also gets proper debuff options so that people do not think bad about SSCW in general. Had encounters where ppl simply never knew that CW can do burst damage w spellstorm.
Parties with 2 x CWs seem to preform rather well, especially with HR/GF/DC combo.
Balance is still way out there for top content. DC+OP is still the most viable thing to choose from.
I am happy to see HRs being slightly more invited in parties nowadays, and not just as DPS.
TRs have been properly introduced as Boss Killers with SoD. However, sometimes it is unpredictable in the heat of the moment, and can easily do far more damage than intended (not that good in SpellPlague).
Overall CW's are in a rather good position at the moment, and thaumaturge should be carefully examined in contrast to other classes in order to be viable as a DPS-only build, for which I believe that people generally won't really accept as much as they will accept a debuffer such as Rene/MoF or even Rene/SS.
Oppressor should not interfere with skills of other CWs in the team, specifically chill stacks. That makes no sense.
Finally got to truly test my MoF Opp AoE and well its ok, but not as good as a Thaum or a Renegade AoE builds. So I canned that rather quickly. Took my MoF Opp build and redid it for PVP, works so much better. I would use it as a buffer but like I said Control Momentum only seems to work once and after initial proc on it, it does not work so it is rather a weak feat compared to Chaotic Magic procs.
My favorite build is my SS Single Target. It does really well when there are is one or two other CWs in the group.
I did some testing of how strong a CW is and my solo runs are any where from 5-10 minutes faster than they were in mod 14.
I feel bad for the GWFs because I kept up with a 17K GWF using a full own MoF Opp buff build in CoDG in the buff group with Shatter Strike capstone. Imagine the damage I could have done if I was setup as the Renegade build running full on DPS spec. Oh well. It was fun playing a full on buffer and keeping up with a 17K GWF.
I know I ran some FBI, MSPC, T9 and other content as a hybrid buffer and typically I find myself or other well built CW top DPS in those runs.
I still see plenty of CWs using the older SS Thaum setup and well they complain when I surpass them in damage when I run my MoF Hybrid Renegade build - I run Combustive Action and APF on bosses and on adds I run Combustive Action with Chilling Presence. It sad really that these players have the internet and yet don't research their class or reach out to others in the community to at least get an idea on what is good and what is garbage.
Its barely been a week and I am still tinkering with my CW whereas others seem set with their build. I'm hoping to find something unique that maybe is originally overlooked because of how it functions. More testing and tinkering before I'm 100% done messing around with my loadouts.
Well, the whole point was to maximize the Disintegrate/Ice Knife combination, and for that this mod 15 truly needs 20k+ Recovery on CW.
I found in the whole two tests I did that Disintegrate was hitting harder on Renegade and that was about it for me.
Don't forget with a renegade build you forgo spell twisting. The reason disintegrate hits hard is APF and you can still run that as a Thaum. My disintegrate hits just as hard as a Thaum the difference is I get more uses of disintegrate due to spell twisting. Within 6 seconds I get any where from 3-4 disintegrate with 24K recovery and without spell twisting it is between 2-3. At 3M+ dmg with 1 extra disintegrate it out performs Renegade damage wise; this is before you add in any other bonus damage that Thaum offers or any group buffs.
I would not recommend running a Thaum CW unless there is another CW already running Renegade; otherwise it can hinder the rest of the group.
Ran with a few SS Thaum DPS as a MoF renegade; these other CW were running the older build and complained as I was beating them with a my buff build. I run SoD with APF. APF is why disintegrate performs so well and with using it every 2-3 seconds it maximizes the CW damage on bosses. Similar to how CP provides the damage bonus but so much easier to maintain with higher recovery or a combination of recovery, Armor of Quick Recovery, and with spell twisting.
I have tried out my Thaum with the Armor of Quick Recovery and Spell Twisting. A few runs I was able to hit disintegrate 2x in a row after I used Ice Knife and after I was buffed up by the OP and DC and each hit surpassed 30M and in under 2 seconds I produces over 60M in damage. Crazy huh....that was as a Thaum when I ran with another CW that was running a full buff renegade build.
Overall the CW is better but IMO we should not be forced to pick between Storm Spell, Chilling Presence, APF, etc... all should be viable for DPS builds. I can understand having abilities for AoE vs Single target, but when it comes to having three different single target options, all should be able to allow a CW to produce similar damage regardless of the ability picked. This would be balanced. IMO given the changes, the class is limited even more so than in mod 13 & 14 and that has made it less interesting as a class to play in NWO. My DC at least has variety between DO and AC and same with my GF between Tac and Conqueror. My CW is AoE Renegade or Single Target and the only difference for my buff build is changing from CP over to SoD. And due to not many double CW runs runs I rarely get to swap over to my Thaum build which is the same rotation basically as the renegade build making for a fairly boring class overall. No real variety if you think about it.
At least with my GF I use a three if not four different abilities and on my DC at minimum 4 different abilities are used, making each build feel a bit more unique.
When you run with a good rec+ team, Spell Twisting doesn't do anything important. Things happen so fast that your recovery makes all the difference and your spells are constantly available. You can't even get to use them at that point as you are wasting time on animation.
I wouldn't recommend using Spell Twisting unless you have below 10K recovery. Anything above 10K-12K recovery, Spell Twisting is out of the question imho.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Well, the whole point was to maximize the Disintegrate/Ice Knife combination, and for that this mod 15 truly needs 20k+ Recovery on CW.
I found in the whole two tests I did that Disintegrate was hitting harder on Renegade and that was about it for me.
Do you have nightmare wizardry on your Renegade build for CA? If you do that explains why disintegrate is hitting hard. Get a GF to mark the sparring target and than do it as a Thaum; it hits just as hard.
When you run with a good rec+ team, Spell Twisting doesn't do anything important. Things happen so fast that your recovery makes all the difference and your spells are constantly available. You can't even get to use them at that point as you are wasting time on animation.
I wouldn't recommend using Spell Twisting unless you have below 10K recovery. Anything above 10K-12K recovery, Spell Twisting is out of the question imho.
Spell twisting is still helpful even when above 12K recovery. With 24k recovery my disintegrate takes 3 seconds to cool down without any cool down or recovery buffs from others. Now if I get recovery/cool down buffs it goes down to around 2 seconds and sometimes one second. With spell twisting I'm able to use disintegrate almost instantly, between every other encounter and sometimes one after the other. On bosses that just means more damage that is with a full on group that provides recovery/cool down buffs.
If you only have two loadouts I would not build a Thaum DPS build. i would go renegade AoE and Single Target. I have 8 and I was with one unused one and decided to try it out. It does do more damage than the Renegade but not like I would like it to as a PURE DPS build. It needs the feat in the Renegade tree and a few other tweaks to be the real DPS build for CW.
I do like the changes and I also hate them because all CW are now basically running renegade for buffing or DPS and that just seems stupid to me. It needs to be fixed and fixed by mod 16.
Comments
With that said the CW would surpass the GF in damage as the GF damage nose dives really fast due to the fact that the GF needs to be damage to produce damage. And as I pointed out in other threads that the setup many GF run for DPS is designed to hold threat but the design is being abused by many to pull out some serious damage in content. Though a DC trolling a GF can really make a good GF look bad, I know I have done it a few times now on purpose.
As for CW vs GF; when a GF cannot do there rotation due to cleanse a CW can surpass a GF in damage. In fact, a well built CW can do really good damage wise but a CW is not in the same category as a GWF damage wise.
What I am wondering with the CW mod 15 changes is how does a CW compare to a SW, HR and TR for damage. These were the classes with the biggest changes and I'm wondering how close these classes are to each other damage wise. Are we talking 5% or is there such a difference that HR Combat is way superior to TR, SW and CW DPS builds. And for TR, SW and CW are there damage similar or does a TR dps build do more, SW do more or CW do more and if more how much?
These are the things we need to look at to see if SW, TR and CW damage output is the new standard going forward and if so, expect GF, HR Combat and GWF to be adjusted?
At this point everything is speculation until we got our hands on mod 16. Until that time, I guess my time with NWO will be spent working on upgrading my GF as my CW and DC are nearly done with my DC not really needing much and my CW needing the new head piece in mod 15.
ARCANE SINGULARITY - is not affected by feat Arcane Enhancement
SPELL STORM - is not affected by feat Uncontrolled Obliteration (smolder is affected)
Warped magics can't crit btw. Just another hamper for this terrible damage tree.
My good sir,
When i say this, i put my hand on my heart and i speak for all CW's out there. What is this change to Control Wizard?
I get it, you wanted to change things in the class to make other things more viable allowing us to have more options. Sure, im all for that. I get that you wanted to make sure we weren't stuck going down one path of feats, and stuck with Chilling Presence as our only option. I commend that notion, however its worked out ironically quite the opposite.
We just went from being stuck in Oppressor, to now being stuck in the Renegade path? We now just lost half the dps from chilling presence and we are still using chilling presence because that other garbage you changed, ( arcane presence, evocation..etc) is absolutely awful and is COMPLETELY disconnected from the class. Gentlemen, How am i going to stack arcane presence in a sensible manner in order for it to actually benefit me? Seriously, go do a double take on it and think about it, then come back to me on that one. I'm not here to bash you guys, i'm here on behalf of the community of CW's and the passionate people that play this game. Understand that please. I want to be level with you guys here.
Here's something that every, and i mean EVERY control wizard would absolutely kill for. An actual purpose within the game.
As a CW you cant even play the game because there is no self respecting players that would ever have a CW in their 5 man party because anything a CW can do, other classes do it way way way better. thats the damn truth and reality of it. So ask yourselves, if im a control wizard and nobody wants one in their party... how exactly do you play the game? solo i guess?
Lets go through the list of actual usefulness the CW has:
DPS- sub par to other classes but not too bad. ( emphasis on not too bad)
Thats it. it ends there. You see, because thats the only thing we can actually do half way decently, we get out shined by the classes who do that very well. There is about 3 or 4 other classes that do it better. So we are pretty low on that totem poll. Not to mention there is an overflow of dps players, and heres a hint. They aren't playing CW.
Heres the point i want to send home. GIVE US A PURPOSE. A reason for CW to be needed in a party. A vital role. Thats truly what we want. Im not asking for a dps increase necessarily. Maybe give us ways we can buff our party in a meaningful way. Dont do it through renegade capstone. Give us powers or a entire tree that is based around providing MEANINGFUL buffs.
Overall, playing this class just makes you want to change classes or just leave the game completely. Hopelessness is the only word that can truly describe the agony that every CW feels when they play the game. Talk to any CW in the game. If you want player feedback or need help finding a way to do these things to give CW a purpose then, just reach out to the community. There is so many players that would be more than willing to help and provide meaningful and worthwhile feedback.
Thank you for you time. Please understand our passion for this class. This is a cry for help.
Don't gaff this off as some biased player whining. This is truly how the community feels.
(and yes i can speak on the half of the community because things are so bad, you would have to be an idiot to actually think CW is relevant in any sense. Facts.)
I am doing massive damage this mod more damage then i ever did before
and unless a well equipped gwf is there i always get top first place in damage
> Another player that does not know how to play cw easy mode = off lol
> I am doing massive damage this mod more damage then i ever did before
> and unless a well equipped gwf is there i always get top first place in damage
Out of curiosity, which Boss and AoE setups have you gone with since Mod 15? I haven’t spent enough time with my CW since the rework and wouldn’t mind some inspiration.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
if you dont have a lot of recovery and or recovery enchants then you still are going to want spell twisting 2 or 3 point and 1 or 2 in elemental empowerment
also there is a lot of gear that offer bonuses when you are in party that is the gear I favor
there are a few straight up %%damage bonus damage elemental companions and regular ones ..and the damage increase the more companion that you have that are epic ..your damage increase and stacks further 16% /8%/ 4%/ 2% and 1%
try poping a watermelon sorbet and the guild foods that adds more power and drinking a crit potion +1000 +2000 more crit /
also the crit potion from invoking adds more critical severity ..potions and consumables are a very cheap way to boost up your damage without investing heavily in enchantments / or companions
also taking the guild power boon
also having rank 11 -14 bonding stones helps the most and power enchantments on your main companion
there are mount bonuses that based on your power perform and buff you better as well
etc etc but at 1300 post i sure you must know plenty of people that can help you with your cw
and you probably know half of what i said anyways
what i said i universal regardless of loadouts
end game people want cws as a buffer debuffer and not a damage dealer tho
ray of enfeeble on tab for debuffs or disintegrate if the boss is low on hitpoints
companion damage/ bonuses occur more on the cw when the boss is at 50% hit points or less
also due to the first thum feet giving bonus damage when enemy is below 35%
and elemental fire companion passive bonus doing more damage to opponents below 50%
the other elemental earth i belive doing damage to oppenant that have less then 100% health
siegemaster is also good 3% more damage
tiger is good as well 5% more damage
all of these work together
there are quite a few boons that increase damage alot rampaging madness comes to mind
again i have all the boons and am in a level 20 guild most player do not have that luxury
my item level is 18000 c w... yes i will get beat in damage in party with a 14-15k item level gf / or gwfs that know what they are doing .. but in a pug random Queue almost never
cw can be expensive to gear at end game in order to compete
I will not be going into full loadout details as that will take hours of my time to write and i dont really do guides i am a holdover pvp cw from the old days
I am sure someone will correct some of the thing i say / find errors as everyone has thier own personal style etc
and perhaps this belongs in the cws section not the preview section
cause you cannot switch loadouts/ change gear while you are in combat anyways its locked unless you disengage and then you are doing 0 dps anyways
granted tho can do it at the campfire before the boss // and switch powers on the fly in combat usually the one in the tab position
this is purely my perspective tho
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As for GWF, if you are getting beat by a 15k GWF than the class is not fine period. The difference damage wise between a properly build character at 15-18K should not be that much but a 18K IL dps should always out damage the lower IL player UNLESS the DC / OP Devo is buffing them with Exh or Bane, otherwise the higher IL should be higher on the damage board.
Overall the CW is not in a bad spot but given the changes in mod 15 the class now requires more out of the player to manage for stacks and that has really pushed the class to be a skilled class. Coming from other games, when a class took more skill to play the reward for playing such a class was HIGHER damage than other classes. What I keep hearing is that CW is not in the HIGHER damage zone, proof of a 18K CW being beat by a 15k GWF.
In mod 14 my bull on Thaum (yeah I ran one through t9) at 17.6K il keeps up with 16k GWF. A 17k GWF beats me hands down almost every time, rarely am I not beaten by a 17k GWF. TR, SW and HR anyone within 1.5K il below me tends also to be me or keep up with my CW. The CW in mod 14 was the worst DPS in the game and mod 15 from my understanding is that it really doesn't change.
Like I stated if the new feat in Renegade was moved to Thaum CW would actually be a good DPS. Maybe the devs didn't move it because they were concerned that CW would beat GWF regularly if they did this; well if the class takes more skill to play than a GWF, well CW should be producing more damage than a GWF.
So far what I have seen with NWO is that the easier the class is to play the more damage it does.
Combat HR is easier to play than Trapper yet Combat does more damage.
GWF and GF both are fairly easy to play compared to a TR other than mod 14 GWF and GF both produce more damage than a TR
SW and CW both take a bit to ensure you are playing the class to its full potential and CW gets even more added to it in mod 15 and yet CW is not even near the same category damage wise as the easier classes are.
Honestly if a class takes more to play to achieve its max damage potential the reward should match the extra effort. Unfortunately the devs miss the mark with the CW and a quick fix that I though would have made it happen was moving that new feat from Renegade to Thaum.
I'm still excited because now I will have a PVP build, 3 PVE builds and one unused loadout that I will probably use for testing an idea I have for the Thaum path.
Oppressor
Buffer: I disagree using Oppressor as a buffer as I am not seeing control momentum going off a second time after I use a control ability after the 6 seconds have passed from the first control momentum on the same target; it seems once control momentum goes off on an enemy it cannot process again unless you have a new target.
DPS: I have to say that MoF running Evocation and Chilling Presence with the Shatter Strike capstone this is now my favorite AoE DPS build. At first I was not sure how this would work out but OMG it produces some good damage. Better than I expected. I use Entangling Force on Tab, Fanning the Flame, Icy Terran, and Steal Time. This build does wonderfully IMO as a AoE dps.
Thaumaturge
Buffer: Not a chance
DPS: I like running a SS Thaum/Opp build and it overall out performs the renegade build from what I have experience. The feats that are need to make this build shine are Transcendent Master, Chilling Control, and Destructive Wizardry. Encounters used are Icy Ray on tab, Sudden Storm, Entangling Force/Repel/RoE, and disintegrate and like all other single target build you use chilling presence and arcane power field.
This build is getting a constant 25% damage buff for Icy Ray and with spell twisting I go from 3 seconds on my disintegrate to an average of 2 seconds. Typically through 2 rotations I gain 1 extra disintegrate. That is roughly 10M+ in bonus damage when compared to the Renegade build just from the disintegrate; this does not include the damage increase you would get from other abilities.
Renegade:
Buffer: This build IMO is the best way to go until control momentum can be fixed for Oppressor. Running MoF with Combustive Action and Swath, RoE on tab, etc... is IMO the best buffing CW build we have currently have. The only way I would run Oppressor is for speed runs with ST on tab and the feat to buff the group speed and even with that setup I think Renegade is a better buffer over Oppressor.
DPS: Due to what I have seen with this build I think it is closer to what we had with MoF/SS Oppressor in mod 13/14 as a hybrid build due to the buffs from Chaos Magic. I do recommend having at least a SS or MoF single target Renegade build as I only recommend running the Thaum build if there are other CWs in the group; otherwise run Renegade to help buff the group.
Overall I have seen a very good bump in CW damage and I over all I'm pleasantly surprised.
Ran some CoDG as a full Renegade buffer and I have seen around 50-100M buff in my damage in the buff group. I'm typically now surpassing 400-500M in damage whereas before my damage was typically below 400M in damage.
Mod 16 my wish list....
1) Move the damage feats from Renegade to Thaum - Phantasmal Destruction and Uncontrolled Obliteration - this would make Thaum the true DPS path for CW.
2) Move control momentum to Renegade
3) Move power surge to Oppressor
4) Allow Thaum abilities that cannot be buffed to be buffed - adjust damage bonus based on these changes
5) Fix Control Momentum to process off any control ability, refreshing the prior use, not stacking but refreshing. Right now I see it drop and not refreshing if I use a control ability after 6 seconds have passed. For instance I use Icy Ray and it hit a target it causes Control Momentum to proc than 7 seconds later I use it again on the same target and nothing happens.
The way things are now for CW's I can't really imagine anything better, except that SS paragon also gets proper debuff options so that people do not think bad about SSCW in general. Had encounters where ppl simply never knew that CW can do burst damage w spellstorm.
Parties with 2 x CWs seem to preform rather well, especially with HR/GF/DC combo.
Balance is still way out there for top content. DC+OP is still the most viable thing to choose from.
I am happy to see HRs being slightly more invited in parties nowadays, and not just as DPS.
TRs have been properly introduced as Boss Killers with SoD. However, sometimes it is unpredictable in the heat of the moment, and can easily do far more damage than intended (not that good in SpellPlague).
Overall CW's are in a rather good position at the moment, and thaumaturge should be carefully examined in contrast to other classes in order to be viable as a DPS-only build, for which I believe that people generally won't really accept as much as they will accept a debuffer such as Rene/MoF or even Rene/SS.
Oppressor should not interfere with skills of other CWs in the team, specifically chill stacks. That makes no sense.
My favorite build is my SS Single Target. It does really well when there are is one or two other CWs in the group.
I did some testing of how strong a CW is and my solo runs are any where from 5-10 minutes faster than they were in mod 14.
I feel bad for the GWFs because I kept up with a 17K GWF using a full own MoF Opp buff build in CoDG in the buff group with Shatter Strike capstone. Imagine the damage I could have done if I was setup as the Renegade build running full on DPS spec. Oh well. It was fun playing a full on buffer and keeping up with a 17K GWF.
I know I ran some FBI, MSPC, T9 and other content as a hybrid buffer and typically I find myself or other well built CW top DPS in those runs.
I still see plenty of CWs using the older SS Thaum setup and well they complain when I surpass them in damage when I run my MoF Hybrid Renegade build - I run Combustive Action and APF on bosses and on adds I run Combustive Action with Chilling Presence. It sad really that these players have the internet and yet don't research their class or reach out to others in the community to at least get an idea on what is good and what is garbage.
Its barely been a week and I am still tinkering with my CW whereas others seem set with their build. I'm hoping to find something unique that maybe is originally overlooked because of how it functions. More testing and tinkering before I'm 100% done messing around with my loadouts.
I found in the whole two tests I did that Disintegrate was hitting harder on Renegade and that was about it for me.
I would not recommend running a Thaum CW unless there is another CW already running Renegade; otherwise it can hinder the rest of the group.
Ran with a few SS Thaum DPS as a MoF renegade; these other CW were running the older build and complained as I was beating them with a my buff build. I run SoD with APF. APF is why disintegrate performs so well and with using it every 2-3 seconds it maximizes the CW damage on bosses. Similar to how CP provides the damage bonus but so much easier to maintain with higher recovery or a combination of recovery, Armor of Quick Recovery, and with spell twisting.
I have tried out my Thaum with the Armor of Quick Recovery and Spell Twisting. A few runs I was able to hit disintegrate 2x in a row after I used Ice Knife and after I was buffed up by the OP and DC and each hit surpassed 30M and in under 2 seconds I produces over 60M in damage. Crazy huh....that was as a Thaum when I ran with another CW that was running a full buff renegade build.
Overall the CW is better but IMO we should not be forced to pick between Storm Spell, Chilling Presence, APF, etc... all should be viable for DPS builds. I can understand having abilities for AoE vs Single target, but when it comes to having three different single target options, all should be able to allow a CW to produce similar damage regardless of the ability picked. This would be balanced. IMO given the changes, the class is limited even more so than in mod 13 & 14 and that has made it less interesting as a class to play in NWO. My DC at least has variety between DO and AC and same with my GF between Tac and Conqueror. My CW is AoE Renegade or Single Target and the only difference for my buff build is changing from CP over to SoD. And due to not many double CW runs runs I rarely get to swap over to my Thaum build which is the same rotation basically as the renegade build making for a fairly boring class overall. No real variety if you think about it.
At least with my GF I use a three if not four different abilities and on my DC at minimum 4 different abilities are used, making each build feel a bit more unique.
When you run with a good rec+ team, Spell Twisting doesn't do anything important. Things happen so fast that your recovery makes all the difference and your spells are constantly available. You can't even get to use them at that point as you are wasting time on animation.
I wouldn't recommend using Spell Twisting unless you have below 10K recovery. Anything above 10K-12K recovery, Spell Twisting is out of the question imho.
Spell twisting is still helpful even when above 12K recovery. With 24k recovery my disintegrate takes 3 seconds to cool down without any cool down or recovery buffs from others. Now if I get recovery/cool down buffs it goes down to around 2 seconds and sometimes one second. With spell twisting I'm able to use disintegrate almost instantly, between every other encounter and sometimes one after the other. On bosses that just means more damage that is with a full on group that provides recovery/cool down buffs.
If you only have two loadouts I would not build a Thaum DPS build. i would go renegade AoE and Single Target. I have 8 and I was with one unused one and decided to try it out. It does do more damage than the Renegade but not like I would like it to as a PURE DPS build. It needs the feat in the Renegade tree and a few other tweaks to be the real DPS build for CW.
I do like the changes and I also hate them because all CW are now basically running renegade for buffing or DPS and that just seems stupid to me. It needs to be fixed and fixed by mod 16.