I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Even if it has 50% uptime as you state, it still doesn't directly mean it's better. You see, 50% uptime for a 30% buff doesn't equate to 15% increase. A constant buff even if smaller is worth more. Even boss fights are, often times, quite short and a randomized buff might never even proc in that duration.
The sad thing is, the opposite "should" be true. Like, a buff that's pretty huge but only active 10% of the time, if players were able to coordinate with it, would buff their biggest attacks rather than their smallest. But I suspect that Neverwinter doesn't really have that kind of dynamic-the "hold dailies for X" type of thing.
HR buffers > CW Renegade or Oppressor Templock > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Now given the changes to DO DC the CW Renegade path needs to be an alternative to a Templock or HR Buff build. In the current state CW is inferior and any groups looking for a buffer will take a Temp or a HR Buff build over a CW, because they provide better buffs.
Now onto the DPS side - CW DPS is dismal and not worth investing into as a pure DPS due to a really bad inferior capstone.
As for the oppressor build, the it is still viable but the changes to the capstone hinders this build and should have been left alone.
For the Renegade here are my thoughts on how to fix the Capstone...
Chaotic Fury - Buff proc off a critical hit Chaotic Growth - Buff proc when daily is use Chaotic Nexus - Buff proc off encounter use Chaotic Discipline - Buff proc off at will use Chaotic Fortitude - Buff proc off a cold base spell Chaotic Speed - Buff proc off a lighting or fire base attack
Looking at this list if you use Scorching Burst and land a critical hit you get Chaotic Fury, Chaotic Discipline and Chaotic Speed.
This is a nice change of pace and ensure an easier up time of Chaotic Fury and depending upon the attack use we can add in other buffs. I like this setup for Chaos Magic as it is better IMO than the current one.
I would also limit the buff to no more than 4 at a time.
Just a thought on how to improve the Renegade capstone.
2
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Even if it has 50% uptime as you state, it still doesn't directly mean it's better. You see, 50% uptime for a 30% buff doesn't equate to 15% increase. A constant buff even if smaller is worth more. Even boss fights are, often times, quite short and a randomized buff might never even proc in that duration.
The sad thing is, the opposite "should" be true. Like, a buff that's pretty huge but only active 10% of the time, if players were able to coordinate with it, would buff their biggest attacks rather than their smallest. But I suspect that Neverwinter doesn't really have that kind of dynamic-the "hold dailies for X" type of thing.
That could be true if you could reliably cast the buff even if it has a bad uptime (like Soul Sight Crystal), but you can't, because it's random. You might end up holding your heavy hits for long periods to align everything and end up finishing the fight a lot slower.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Actually, if you spend even 1 minute looking at logs you will realize chaotic fury creates multiple log entries when it procs, causing it to appear in the combat logs as if it has a proc rate greater than the others. In reality if you normalize to remove the "fake entries" you will find it procs just as much as the other buffs.
I'd have to agree with some others here that I'd prefer to see all 3 paths provide distinct functionality (and viability). I really can't understand why there is an apparent bias against the Thaum path. Most SS mage's were playing it once upon a time because it is a FUN damage path. I have many options as loadouts, that include MoF / SS Opp, Thaum, Rene but of course I am biased towards which I enjoy the most. That changes over time from variant to variant, but that is the hook, I would like to be able to change things up and experiment in different situations with different builds without gimping my toon and consequently the team. I'm sure that is the goal of the devs for all the classes, at least I hope it is.
Please revisit Assailing Force and give some consideration to the feedback that has been provided. The capstone should be something worth putting points in Thaum beyond spell twisting imho (if even for that come mod 15).
I still don't understand the apparent consensus in this thread that Thaum isn't useful. Can someone explain that to me? I switched out of Renegade to Thaum because my experience at the time showed it was actually mode damage! Then again, that was before I got a Razorwood.
Thaum. is for Solo play, it provides more Damage than other paths and makes up for the lower damage a CW should have by default.
Renegade is for group play, to provide buffs/debuffs and with the right build, a Zero CD Encounter spewing machine.
Renegade has the clear advantage for solo play, it gives reliable combat advantage which is a much bigger buff then any of the other paths will give you. Thaum is as dead as the dodos.
Guess we're back to renegade builds for support then?
Will chaos magic proc from DoTs?
If you were running anything else in groups then you were a liability.
If you were running renegade in premades in mod 14 then you were a liability. The only time renegade made sense in m14 is when there is literally no other way to gain combat advantage.
If all you were using it for was CA you aren't using it correctly. That's like saying the only reason to include a GWF in a party is because it can run.
Any DPS class will do a better job over a CW at DPS, and I don't say "other" DPS class because like it or not, that isn't what you're there exclusively to do. If you're not maximizing your ability to provide supporting benefits as a Renegade, zero CD build does and will do considerably better with these changes, then you are replaceable.
Of course if you're a premade and most of you are 2k+ higher than the min iLvL for the content you're running, it doesn't matter what you do. You're a joke that gets exponentially funnier the more overgeared you get.
Oppressor, currently on live, provides better, more reliable buffs then renegade and does more dps provided there is nobody else providing CA. The crit buff and chaotic growth are useless and a 10% buff that can be procced 100% of the time is stronger then a 30% buff which is only up some of the time
If you acutally look at the data from runs of uptime of Chaotic Fury, you would find out that uptimes of each buff are not the same. Fury had in many cases uptime comparable to Nexus and Growth combined (who knows why). Fury is much better than oppressor buff.
Actually, if you spend even 1 minute looking at logs you will realize chaotic fury creates multiple log entries when it procs, causing it to appear in the combat logs as if it has a proc rate greater than the others. In reality if you normalize to remove the "fake entries" you will find it procs just as much as the other buffs.
So how exactly does one distinguish between "fake" log entries and real ones then?
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much. Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
The only thing I really miss about these changes that where are CW is heading.
Like, it used to be: -Thaum: Damage -Oppr:Useless Control -Rene: Buff
It weren't perfect, but at least clear.
We got a few changes that skewed up everything and that was kind of okay, because it wasn't a CW rework and the results were at least calmingly good at the time.
But now I'm looking and analyzing these changes and the point seems completely lost. Rene is the amalganation of everything and Oppr is like a buffer.
I'm unsure if it needs to be reverted back into the old formula, but we should be having at least a grasp of which trees are supposed to do what to be able to "fix" them.
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much. Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
Testing something that deals 300% increased damage vs targets that are more or less constantly under the increased damage threshold is going to produce some very inaccurate results. In dungeons, where the damage output matters, disintegrate deals nowhere near the amount shown in the graph above. Disintegrate isn't out of control.
You are also using a Class Feature that is increase only Arcane Damage.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I will address you once and once only then I will go back to providing feedback on the topic at hand, because I don't want to have to waste the devs time with reading all the text you will splurge onto this thread.
In terms of pure Support, CW is strictly worse then:
1) AC DC 2) OP 3) SW 4) DO DC 5) HR 6) A tactician GF stacking inspiring leader.
This means a dedicated support CW should never be taken in a 5 man group, because there are 6 possible support specs which perform your roll but better. This is looking at an optimized group by the way, because if you look at an unoptimized group where they fail at a lot of things, you should obviously be playing dps if you are that heavily invested into your character, because the group is already failing and you will contribute to the group significantly more by building as dps.
In mod 15, the list will look exactly the same, minus DO DC. Here is why a pure support build is bad compared to a dps build, lets say we have a hypothetical situation where people do the following damage:
Lets say, you go full recovery and do as much damage as a support. So you add 10 damage. Wohoo, you boosted the teams dps by 5.2%. Now, what does the MoF rene bring that the oppressor does not? It brings a 30% buff with 33% uptime (so worth 10%), lets say 100% uptime on combustive action and for arguments sake lets say that the oppressor only has 50% uptime on RoE and the Rene has 100% uptime. You can also have a debuff enchantment with a value of 12% and a debuff artifact with a value of 16%, but only with 14% uptime so worth only 2.25%. I will be generous though and call it 2.5 instead.
If there are no debuffs, then you boost the parties damage by ~78.2%. However, there aren't "no debuffs" so I will be conservative and assume there are ~110% debuffs (which is easy to reach, 50% from pets, 60% from incidental sources). Suddenly, you are down to a 37.8% increase. So, how much damage would a MoF Opp need to add to the party to increase their DpS by 37.8%? Well, if you take away 10% for Controlled momentum, it becomes 25.2%, then if you work out 190*1.252=237.88. So, if you then sutract 190 from that you find you only need to do 47.88% of the main dps's dps, in order to contribute more then a pure support, which is a VERY low boundry, considering this situation is intentially biased in the favour of the MoF rene.
Subtract a DpS and it becomes even more heavily favoured towards the oppressor.
So, now lets address this whole issue of, "its better to improve the peaks then the valleys" because yes, it is true, which is EXACTLY why a MoF Rene is NEVER a better choice then Oppressor. In an optimized group, they will already time buffs and co-ordinate well, so the boss will melt and it is unlikely fury will proc at all, much less when they need it. In an unoptimized group, the run is slow precisely because they do not co-ordinate buffs, which means that if there are peaks, they are likely freaks of nature where the button mashing hit the right keys by accident and in those situations, it is still essential to play Oppressor, because the only way you will ever layer buffs is by having them up constantly. There is no chance in hell unco-ordinated players are going to synch buffs with a random proc, the only players who have any chance at all of doing that, are players who are already 1 phasing bosses and players who want an oppressor for sure.
Now, would it be nice if CW had a viable support spec? Yes, it would. But if you are a fully geared CW and your gear is for support, your build is a complete waste. Because if you get invited to an undergeared party that would benefit from renegade's crit and arp buff, your fully geared CW would boost the parties dps by well over 100%, which would be well above and beyond superior to the "support spec".
Would I like CW to have a support spec? Yes, I would and quite frankly I think it should be oppressor not renegade. The theme of renegade is randomness, the theme of thaum is dps. The only path that is not very well defined is oppressor, being a "control" path, but control falls more into the domain of support then anything else. Renegade imo should have the theoretical potential to do more dps or more support then either path, but have the randomness as a detracting factor. I would add much more variance to the path, but make what it does swing from wildly powerful to completely underwhelming. Then Oppressor could have less "peak potential" but still be a strong support spec with a support capstone and thaum could do dps. We are very close to being in a situation where this could happen, it just takes a reworking of the capstones.
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much. Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
Testing something that deals 300% increased damage vs targets that are more or less constantly under the increased damage threshold is going to produce some very inaccurate results. In dungeons, where the damage output matters, disintegrate deals nowhere near the amount shown in the graph above. Disintegrate isn't out of control.
You are also using a Class Feature that is increase only Arcane Damage.
This is an ACT log from 2nd boss ToNG. Keeping in mind, combat advantage is broken on preview (see 0% flank), which also means that the run was missing the tiger debuff from 4 tigers and hit was without the soul sight crystal (I spent a large amount of time proned). I was testing a thaum build at the time, so it is also a LOT lower then it could be with uncontrollable obliteration.
This is an ACT log from 2nd boss ToNG. Keeping in mind, combat advantage is broken on preview (see 0% flank), which also means that the run was missing the tiger debuff from 4 tigers and hit was without the soul sight crystal (I spent a large amount of time proned). I was testing a thaum build at the time, so it is also a LOT lower then it could be with uncontrollable obliteration.
What about the logs from the first and third boss?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
This is an ACT log from 2nd boss ToNG. Keeping in mind, combat advantage is broken on preview (see 0% flank), which also means that the run was missing the tiger debuff from 4 tigers and hit was without the soul sight crystal (I spent a large amount of time proned). I was testing a thaum build at the time, so it is also a LOT lower then it could be with uncontrollable obliteration.
What about the logs from the first and third boss?
I no longer have that specific combat log (I did the run on sunday), I think it was around 28% though, this was just 1 thing I had screenshotted from the run. Ask @rjc9000 if he still has it, since he ran the combat log during the run.
Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
but boi, disintegrate has always been a must have for single target builds, even if they nerfed heavily, still will be a must have for single target, because it hits like a daily while having really low CD.
0
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Cryptic team- you still left some TOTALLY USELESS CW's feats untouched. Little example:
Really? 10% more from at wills which deals no damage? i mean 5,5k from at will instead of 5k? This feat is useless because CW has one of the weaker or maybe even the weakest at wills in game
Next:
temporary hit points...should I add any comment?
Really?;0
And feat which deserve for individual thread:
I mean...oh...somebody was really, REALLY drunk when he was thinking about this feat... o_O
Most of our feat are useless, and some feats are just " oh i must take this sh...to go rurther in my skill tree".
You should add some changes here to make CW playable again.
4
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I do agree there are a lot of feats of pretty questionable usefulness, yeah.
I no longer have that specific combat log (I did the run on sunday), I think it was around 28% though, this was just 1 thing I had screenshotted from the run. Ask @rjc9000 if he still has it, since he ran the combat log during the run.
I sent you the actual log through email, you fool. Getting senile on me? Or are you waiting for that messenger pidgeon to pass you the microcard across seas?
Vs. Porkus
Vs. Rasin
I would like to note that the pie slices may be a little different than players who have more time to kill the boss, since Edgy had to deal with a DPS GF stealing the precious damage.
Eh, the people who main CWs will continue to main them. Whether or not they "should" is debatable, and I do think this is prooooobably a net nerf? But I don't think it'll make solo play for CWs much more difficult, so eh.
We just want a viable endgame class as a DPS or Support. It does not have to be both neither the best. And the three feats paths with some logical and viable choices. This will make the CWs, who have suffered a lot, happy again.
The changes seem like they will not be able to accomplish this.
I would be grateful if the developers review these changes with some affection, because it does not look like they will change the CW's position in the game.
Makes me wonder if it wouldn't better to get the 5% party wide crit over abyss of chaos....
Please, no. Party crit chance and armor pen buffs are undesirable because they become less valuable and eventually useless the more powerful your party actually is. No more of those.
Makes me wonder if it wouldn't better to get the 5% party wide crit over abyss of chaos....
Please, no. Party crit chance and armor pen buffs are undesirable because they become less valuable and eventually useless the more powerful your party actually is. No more of those.
Sure, but it's a 5% crit to yourself too, so you can balance your stats with 5% crit less, which can make it easier/better if you don't have to get suboptimal enchants. In addition, it buffs your party if they happen to not be crit capped.
Abyss of chaos, based on those logs, is around .8% of your dps, it's quite insignifiant...
Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
but boi, disintegrate has always been a must have for single target builds, even if they nerfed heavily, still will be a must have for single target, because it hits like a daily while having really low CD.
This for example is one problem I see. An encounter should not hit like a Daily. Why don't they buff Ice Knife instead. The cw changes are probably not bad for the class but mostly bad design choices imo.
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
1
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Makes me wonder if it wouldn't better to get the 5% party wide crit over abyss of chaos....
Please, no. Party crit chance and armor pen buffs are undesirable because they become less valuable and eventually useless the more powerful your party actually is. No more of those.
Sure, but it's a 5% crit to yourself too, so you can balance your stats with 5% crit less, which can make it easier/better if you don't have to get suboptimal enchants. In addition, it buffs your party if they happen to not be crit capped.
Abyss of chaos, based on those logs, is around .8% of your dps, it's quite insignifiant...
If you're talking about Abyss of Chaos and other "your allies" effects, don't those explicitly NOT affect your own critical hit chance?
If they do, I've been playing this game wrong all this time due to thinking I'm not my own ally!
Comments
HR buffers > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Templock > CW Renegade or Oppressor
Now given the changes to DO DC the CW Renegade path needs to be an alternative to a Templock or HR Buff build. In the current state CW is inferior and any groups looking for a buffer will take a Temp or a HR Buff build over a CW, because they provide better buffs.
Now onto the DPS side - CW DPS is dismal and not worth investing into as a pure DPS due to a really bad inferior capstone.
As for the oppressor build, the it is still viable but the changes to the capstone hinders this build and should have been left alone.
For the Renegade here are my thoughts on how to fix the Capstone...
Chaotic Fury - Buff proc off a critical hit
Chaotic Growth - Buff proc when daily is use
Chaotic Nexus - Buff proc off encounter use
Chaotic Discipline - Buff proc off at will use
Chaotic Fortitude - Buff proc off a cold base spell
Chaotic Speed - Buff proc off a lighting or fire base attack
Looking at this list if you use Scorching Burst and land a critical hit you get Chaotic Fury, Chaotic Discipline and Chaotic Speed.
This is a nice change of pace and ensure an easier up time of Chaotic Fury and depending upon the attack use we can add in other buffs. I like this setup for Chaos Magic as it is better IMO than the current one.
I would also limit the buff to no more than 4 at a time.
Just a thought on how to improve the Renegade capstone.
Disintegrate is out of control. I did some testing on puppets where the puppet is most of the time lower than 25% of its HP. This does not show the regular dungeon behavior I know but Disintegrate will be a must have for single target builds.
Please don't think that Disintegrate is OP and you are going to nerf it. The damage output of a CW is pretty decent I think. If you nerf Disintegrate you have to buff something else otherwise we are as weak as before the balance changes.
I do really like the changes do Disintegrate but sadly I would have wished for something different. An overall improvement of the class would be much more interesting than simply buff 1 spell this much.
Making spells like Fanning the Flame, Ice Knife, Magic Missile or Ray of Enfeeblement stronger could have also been a way to make CWs more balanced compare to other classes (or maybe even buff the good old Shard that hasn't seen love since almost 10 modules?)
Like, it used to be:
-Thaum: Damage
-Oppr:
UselessControl-Rene: Buff
It weren't perfect, but at least clear.
We got a few changes that skewed up everything and that was kind of okay, because it wasn't a CW rework and the results were at least calmingly good at the time.
But now I'm looking and analyzing these changes and the point seems completely lost. Rene is the amalganation of everything and Oppr is like a buffer.
I'm unsure if it needs to be reverted back into the old formula, but we should be having at least a grasp of which trees are supposed to do what to be able to "fix" them.
You are also using a Class Feature that is increase only Arcane Damage.
1) AC DC
2) OP
3) SW
4) DO DC
5) HR
6) A tactician GF stacking inspiring leader.
This means a dedicated support CW should never be taken in a 5 man group, because there are 6 possible support specs which perform your roll but better. This is looking at an optimized group by the way, because if you look at an unoptimized group where they fail at a lot of things, you should obviously be playing dps if you are that heavily invested into your character, because the group is already failing and you will contribute to the group significantly more by building as dps.
In mod 15, the list will look exactly the same, minus DO DC. Here is why a pure support build is bad compared to a dps build, lets say we have a hypothetical situation where people do the following damage:
main dps: 100
secondary dps: 70
2 supports: 10*2 = 20
Lets say, you go full recovery and do as much damage as a support. So you add 10 damage. Wohoo, you boosted the teams dps by 5.2%. Now, what does the MoF rene bring that the oppressor does not? It brings a 30% buff with 33% uptime (so worth 10%), lets say 100% uptime on combustive action and for arguments sake lets say that the oppressor only has 50% uptime on RoE and the Rene has 100% uptime. You can also have a debuff enchantment with a value of 12% and a debuff artifact with a value of 16%, but only with 14% uptime so worth only 2.25%. I will be generous though and call it 2.5 instead.
If there are no debuffs, then you boost the parties damage by ~78.2%. However, there aren't "no debuffs" so I will be conservative and assume there are ~110% debuffs (which is easy to reach, 50% from pets, 60% from incidental sources). Suddenly, you are down to a 37.8% increase. So, how much damage would a MoF Opp need to add to the party to increase their DpS by 37.8%? Well, if you take away 10% for Controlled momentum, it becomes 25.2%, then if you work out 190*1.252=237.88. So, if you then sutract 190 from that you find you only need to do 47.88% of the main dps's dps, in order to contribute more then a pure support, which is a VERY low boundry, considering this situation is intentially biased in the favour of the MoF rene.
Subtract a DpS and it becomes even more heavily favoured towards the oppressor.
So, now lets address this whole issue of, "its better to improve the peaks then the valleys" because yes, it is true, which is EXACTLY why a MoF Rene is NEVER a better choice then Oppressor. In an optimized group, they will already time buffs and co-ordinate well, so the boss will melt and it is unlikely fury will proc at all, much less when they need it. In an unoptimized group, the run is slow precisely because they do not co-ordinate buffs, which means that if there are peaks, they are likely freaks of nature where the button mashing hit the right keys by accident and in those situations, it is still essential to play Oppressor, because the only way you will ever layer buffs is by having them up constantly. There is no chance in hell unco-ordinated players are going to synch buffs with a random proc, the only players who have any chance at all of doing that, are players who are already 1 phasing bosses and players who want an oppressor for sure.
Now, would it be nice if CW had a viable support spec? Yes, it would. But if you are a fully geared CW and your gear is for support, your build is a complete waste. Because if you get invited to an undergeared party that would benefit from renegade's crit and arp buff, your fully geared CW would boost the parties dps by well over 100%, which would be well above and beyond superior to the "support spec".
Would I like CW to have a support spec? Yes, I would and quite frankly I think it should be oppressor not renegade. The theme of renegade is randomness, the theme of thaum is dps. The only path that is not very well defined is oppressor, being a "control" path, but control falls more into the domain of support then anything else. Renegade imo should have the theoretical potential to do more dps or more support then either path, but have the randomness as a detracting factor. I would add much more variance to the path, but make what it does swing from wildly powerful to completely underwhelming. Then Oppressor could have less "peak potential" but still be a strong support spec with a support capstone and thaum could do dps. We are very close to being in a situation where this could happen, it just takes a reworking of the capstones.
This is an ACT log from 2nd boss ToNG. Keeping in mind, combat advantage is broken on preview (see 0% flank), which also means that the run was missing the tiger debuff from 4 tigers and hit was without the soul sight crystal (I spent a large amount of time proned). I was testing a thaum build at the time, so it is also a LOT lower then it could be with uncontrollable obliteration.
Really? 10% more from at wills which deals no damage? i mean 5,5k from at will instead of 5k?
This feat is useless because CW has one of the weaker or maybe even the weakest at wills in game
Next:
temporary hit points...should I add any comment?
Really?;0
And feat which deserve for individual thread:
I mean...oh...somebody was really, REALLY drunk when he was thinking about this feat... o_O
Most of our feat are useless, and some feats are just " oh i must take this sh...to go rurther in my skill tree".
You should add some changes here to make CW playable again.
Getting senile on me?
Or are you waiting for that messenger pidgeon to pass you the microcard across seas?
Vs. Porkus
Vs. Rasin
I would like to note that the pie slices may be a little different than players who have more time to kill the boss, since Edgy had to deal with a DPS GF stealing the precious damage.
We just want a viable endgame class as a DPS or Support. It does not have to be both neither the best. And the three feats paths with some logical and viable choices. This will make the CWs, who have suffered a lot, happy again.
The changes seem like they will not be able to accomplish this.
I would be grateful if the developers review these changes with some affection, because it does not look like they will change the CW's position in the game.
We are wizards!
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
+recharge speed
+damage
-damage resistance (NOT +ARP)
Combat Advantage
+damage with combat advantage
-control resistance
+Speed
+AP gain
Not a buff, but I do like damaging zones. There should be a daily that creates a damaging zone. Anyway I digress.
Abyss of chaos, based on those logs, is around .8% of your dps, it's quite insignifiant...
If they do, I've been playing this game wrong all this time due to thinking I'm not my own ally!
(It's a D&D Rules Language thing)