Happy with having a smaller artisan cap! Its extremely discouraging to even want to be a "top crafter" if any and everyone has the ability to solo craft all the best masterworks and with the best cost/stats. Very much like having level 25 professions now. Why even call it masterworks if 10,000 people can do exactly the same thing with same results? Sounds like "averageworks" then. I, and many other crafters I spoke to all feel the same way. Much like hunts have spurred more interaction amongst the community, doing so with masterworks would also carry many of those same benefits.
I agree! I said on a few occasions, after it was announced, to be reduced from 32, it was likely a little " 'too'o " generous!
When they announced the revision, I wrote one DEV saying I hope it not more than 24-27. Cause I generally think I'm one of the more FAIR, or at less biased opinions on the forum. But everyone is entitled to have their say. It doesn't mean we always have to AGREE, as long as we try to be respectful, even when our views differ.
Sure I say, when I think something goes 'too far', but that goes both ways! Often I was one of the 'few' who was actually very supportive of the Bonding nerf. But my goodness they were just 13x more powerful, than virtually every other Runestone, they relegated others to pure Junk status! Or as only RP refinement, in each & every situation.
I just felt sad for @noworries#8859 as he took a lot of heat, having to make that brave, yet albeit necessary transition! He once commented, 'he wished he could have handled it better', yet from everything I saw, I thought he handled it extremely well--very professional!
But that sometimes has 'some' either IGNORE me... Which I don't mind, they aren't being mean or nasty, but I've had several incorrect labels, or attacks come as well... ...just try my best to brush those off, and regain my mostly positive attitude. Cause I do also understand, why some are passionate as well, it takes a lot to advance a character!
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
I was under the impression that gem crates might be gone with ability to craft gems. The gems themselves would be donated. There was a dev comment somewhere in the thread that some crafted items would be directly donated to coffer. Since we did not have the ability to craft gems before, it would make sense.
But, I haven't seen a labor crate and that will be needed to be added. I've only seen gold and AD, but could easily have missed some.
Gem can be created in leadership enchanted coffers, at least, up to black pearl.
Correct, but it was a coffer that was the created/collected item that also included other items and now we directly collect the gems. They might add gem crates to the crafting menu, but I don't expect to see them. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do.
I would like to make a sugestion, could you add access to the workshop from the stronghold map? This would resolve the issue of lag in protecters enclave.
like maybe add a Workshop" building to the lvl 1 or 2 marketplace
I believe they said it was added to the VIP quick travel sign post. Here is the link to the patch notes where it is said:
that is the vivp post im talking about strongholds
We can already acess the current system without vip from anywhere, it should still remain this way for non cashers too. otherwise it is stripping the game of a basic function.
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
I would like to make a sugestion, could you add access to the workshop from the stronghold map? This would resolve the issue of lag in protecters enclave.
like maybe add a Workshop" building to the lvl 1 or 2 marketplace
I believe they said it was added to the VIP quick travel sign post. Here is the link to the patch notes where it is said:
that is the vivp post im talking about strongholds
We can already acess the current system without vip from anywhere, it should still remain this way for non cashers too. otherwise it is stripping the game of a basic function.
What you are proposing is no different. You seem to think it is wrong to offer it as a new bonus for VIP, but it is ok with you to give it as a new bonus only to guild members? That is "stripping the game of a basic function" for non-guild members.
Anyway it is qualified will deny someone use, it should be added to all waypoints. But to be honest, I have no issue with it being an additional bonus for VIP if it stays that way. I would oppose it as a guild bonus.
I would like to make a sugestion, could you add access to the workshop from the stronghold map? This would resolve the issue of lag in protecters enclave.
like maybe add a Workshop" building to the lvl 1 or 2 marketplace
I do think it would be nice addition on the Stronghold Map, if we had a very similar looking building edited to add: 'workshop' (outside & inside) visible and accessible on the stronghold map for sure. To draw to attention to parties below.
Or maybe DEVs will consider that for the up & coming Stronghold update MOD: Mod 16, 17, or 18? But likely all within the next year.
----- One thing I'd love to see is a new Stronghold Structure like Crafters Trade House!
They'd could add a Crafter's Trade House somewhere around back, perhaps not too far from the Temporary Merchants out back, where all crafters in the guild could perhaps Gather. As your guild upgrades the Trade House, which would be seperate from the Workshop it could unlock new features! Perhaps they could add a Similar looking Workshop identical to the one in Protector's Enclave, out by the Elven Cabin in the Fey Wood's near the location for the Siege Smithy? Provided you don't mind spider's lurking not too far away? -----
Thoughts a Crafter's Trade House Stronghold Structure might offer aside from Guild Boons: DEVs A personal challenge for more unique SH structures for crafters: to trade/co-operate in D&D spirit similar to this...
Example:
Perhaps at Level 1 it might allow you to list 2 items for trade. One item might be '50' Gold Ore you'd trade for anyone in either your guild &/or only your alliance guilds, but perhaps from any guild as long as they in one. At level one it might only allow you to list 1 possible item you'd take for 40 Lacquer Branch. It may allow you to list 5 items for trade as well. All items would require to be posted first, and you'd selecting the # and specific item you'd take in trade.
Perhaps at Level 2 it might allow you to list 2 items for trade. Only now provide two different ways to complete the trade.
Perhaps at Level 10 it might allow you to list 10 items, but now with 1, 2 or 3 different items you'd take in trade. So if you had 50 Gold Ore you could now request either 1 of any of the 3: 250 Slacked Lime, 40 Lacquer Branch, or 5 Aberrant Leather Strap - any one of the 3 would complete the trade. If someoen filled any one of those items they'd then receive mail to get their new item, and you'd then receive the single item of the 3 they offered in trade. This would help crafter's work together as long as they were in a guild!
The structure allows Crafter's to list materials with 1, 2, or 3 items they'd take in trade As long as the person listing belonged to a guild who had at least a level 1 structure they could potentially list or make offers for items. It would also be a sort of social place at the guild where all crafters could go informally trade materials.
I'd love to see a Trade Emporium on the Stronghold, not to mention a similar Workshop inside & out.
after 2 - 3 weeks the cost of all of MK resources and products, will fall by 10-20 times. in GI, instead of the craftsmen will be to sacrifice resources professions. The bot status will generate Ki-1 levels in a large number to sacrifice resources professions for maps, which extracted resources for MK.The auction will be inundated with MK resources.
i have question, what about old lockboxes that has profession packages?
asterdahl already answered that. "existing professions packs will not be changed over as there is no 1:1 equivalent in the new system. Instead you'll be able to exchange the contents for goods just as if you had opened them before the update."
Sure I say, when I think something goes 'too far', but that goes both ways! Often I was one of the 'few' who was actually very supportive of the Bonding nerf. But my goodness they were just 13x more powerful, than virtually every other Runestone, they relegated others to pure Junk status! Or as only RP refinement, in each & every situation.
Did you noticed that bonding change you supported that much didnt change anything? Well except forcing players to spend a lot time and AD to regain what they lost. Other runestones are still in the same, worthless place?
All I am saying - @strathkin - you need to be more carefull a bit. Previously you supported a "change" witch bringed just a pure harm and was anything but a real change. I hope this time you are correct - but then again I am not that optimistic.
Why I am sayint that - in short I am experienced MC - for me at the end it is not important if I am gona have a nice looking workshop - its not important if I m gona have a new artisans with special skills - final result it what counts.
End it turns out that a chance to even create a top tier item droped from even 95% (75% average) to ca 60%.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Failing attemt do not leave you any leftovers. Previously 2-3 failed attempts left enaugh materials for another try.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Crrating any items demands additional, and quite substantiial amounts of gold.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Getting proper artisans team and full workshop upgrade will demand a lot of time, gold and/or ZEN/AD.
Pure loss for a crafter.
So do I mind it - a bit - all additional costs wll impact a final price for a buyer.
Pure loss for a buyers
I will loose mostly a time to go trough this change. But put me aside. New player or players not already on a high crafting levels gona have hard time to improve. Production of guild materials gona be expensive due to amount of gold required.
Pure loss for a guild development.
So is that change is good - I dont think so- crafting needed a rework. If its well thought trough it can lead to be a game inside a game. But I guess not this time. Sure it has some nice aspects, or good looking to be more precise, but it seems that on a long run it wont change anything at all and be more hurting that it seems now.
In general that profession rework seems to perfectly fit lately introduced Cryptic policy I call a "diminishing returns". How it works - here is an example.
With mod 15 your guild mimic is improved. No it accepts a range of different crafting materials. For a first glance its a good change as it fills a gap made with workers/artisans rework. But all those materials now require a lot of time/gold to collect them and offer not much points for a coffer. Perfect example are mastercraft materials - you spent 1500/3000 guild marks to get 6 pieces of materials worth so small amount of points that those return just 40/100 guild marks a piece. So you get back just 20%. Now that is encouraging. So even with a guild boon during double proffesions event you gona spent 3000 guild marks to get 2400 in return. Now I know that guild development shouldnt be free/easy but that?
I can respect your opinion. I don't think anybody like's a nerf by any stretch. Still bondings are in a much better place today. I'd like it if they improved other Runestone's even a little bit more! But getting back on topic...
Happy with having a smaller artisan cap! Its extremely discouraging to even want to be a "top crafter" if any and everyone has the ability to solo craft all the best masterworks and with the best cost/stats. Very much like having level 25 professions now. Why even call it masterworks if 10,000 people can do exactly the same thing with same results? Sounds like "averageworks" then. I, and many other crafters I spoke to all feel the same way. Much like hunts have spurred more interaction amongst the community, doing so with masterworks would also carry many of those same benefits.
I think this was likely a similar reason the DEVs felt a need to 'slightly' reduce the Artisan limit. I've seen some state 26, I'd even be fine with 25, as the upper threshold! For the same reason above.
...End it turns out that a chance to even create a top tier item droped from even 95% (75% average) to ca 60%.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Failing attemt do not leave you any leftovers. Previously 2-3 failed attempts left enaugh materials for another try.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Crrating any items demands additional, and quite substantiial amounts of gold.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Getting proper artisans team and full workshop upgrade will demand a lot of time, gold and/or ZEN/AD.
Pure loss for a crafter.
So do I mind it - a bit - all additional costs wll impact a final price for a buyer.
Pure loss for a buyers
I will loose mostly a time to go trough this change. But put me aside. New player or players not already on a high crafting levels gona have hard time to improve. Production of guild materials gona be expensive due to amount of gold required.
Pure loss for a guild development.
So is that change is good - I dont think so...
I'm not saying I don't agree with 'some' if not several of the very things your saying. Something about me 'most' don't realize: I like playing devil's advocate - not always because I disagree with things said, not to play different sides. Yet only through the discourse and dialog do new idea's, or how people look at things from different perspectives, then present themselves. Other times it the respectful dialog does it allow even DEVs to perhaps re-think a few things upon reflection...
For example: Gold is going to be on ongoing challenge for 'everyone' unless we have some additional methods to earn it. I'm seeing Platinum Gold Plates are now able to stack 99x high, as I saw it x27 but never got it beyond that. They've possibly extended several items stack limits, to allow bigger stacks sold on the Auction House. Still I do think they may need to re-visit some of the gold costs for recipe's, not to mention what merchant are willing to offer you for Crafted Gear!. With an Artisan who has 0% Commission, it shouldn't likely cost you 72 Silver to craft a 70 (Rare) piece of Gear, yet a Merchant in PE will only offer you 34 Silver for it. Even with -25% or -50% Commission, you'd likely barely break even. Cause as I've stated at 0% Commission your looking at almost a loss of 2.19x almost. They should be reconsidering some of the Silver values Merchants offer for crafted works 90+ Silver, perhaps 34 silver is fine for Random (Rare) gear that drops from Enemy.
For the last few weeks everyone has been scrambling to save / collect any and all gold they can before GO LIVE. Aside from suggestion above, perhaps some recipes will slightly reduce gold costs to produce, or a combination of reducing the cost and offering slightly more at Merchants? Though we don't also know if perhaps we'll see a few new items, to be found in skills nodes, dungeons chests, or other locations, or can drop from Enemy... ...possibly with a higher Silver &/or Gold value? Who knows...?
As for the other comment (75% average) to ca 60% sure, I admit it's going to be a little bit harder! Yet the Mastercraft Gear has also been significantly improved, thus making it more attractive and extending it's usefulness! If you're already Mastercraft V you'll be able to make it right away, and 'most' Master Crafter's always try getting top diamond! Some won't even wait for Workshop 4, if they can begin producing it right away they will, just with 2-3 lucky Artisan's in their profession of choice, and good luck from Epic Artisans at Retainer. Everybody who unlocked Professional Slot 7-9 will get 3 Epic choices in whatever Profession they choose. Once they do get Workshop 4 they may even have Epic's Artisan's apply to their shop from time to time. I suspect most Master Crafter's aren't the patient type, as they'll want to establish themselves early on, or mostly so they can sell items for top dollar before everyone else. But it comes down to choice.
So all the materials that used to produce 480 gear, is now suddenly able to craft 560, and that's without potential for higher quality! I suspect with the diamonds Master Crafters make for items, they'll likely be able to buy items on Auction House, from the average Joe to easily recovery the gold for items produced. The average crafter will likely struggle a little more, yet there gear shouldn't cost as much Gold to produce either.
So as I said before: the risk is a little higher sure, but the rewards got a lot more attractive. So I have to trust DEVs will ensure mechanisms exists for all crafters, at least those who want to craft to find ways to earn gold if crafting is something they enjoy! I try to remain hopeful! So hopefully you'll join me.
I was under the impression that gem crates might be gone with ability to craft gems. The gems themselves would be donated. There was a dev comment somewhere in the thread that some crafted items would be directly donated to coffer. Since we did not have the ability to craft gems before, it would make sense.
But, I haven't seen a labor crate and that will be needed to be added. I've only seen gold and AD, but could easily have missed some.
You have not missed any. I have been checking quite closely, and not just doing a search; though, the search is accurate.
If they are going to require us to craft gems to donate them directly to the guild coffer, then the gems had better be worth a lot more in coffer value than they currently are! The same goes for surplus equipment if they don't add crates: the equipment we can craft with the new system had better be worth quite a lot to the coffer!
@asterdahl can we get some clarification on this, please? You guys have been worse than glacially slow at communicating with us around these issues. It would be nice to have an understanding of what to expect to be added to the recipes for guild donations, even if you won't be able to get those recipes added before this goes live on 6 November. A little communication goes a long way, you know, and you guys haven't really been giving us any substantive or worthwhile communication about this, despite the number of players inquiring about this in this thread.
So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
@zephyriah There is no labor crate. Now, that mimic position can be filled with raw crafting materials. That is supposed to fill a gap for current workers. Sure you still can donate tham as vouchers but with time all those gona be used up and raw materials gona be all what is left. Current value of items putted to mimic this way is terrible in both - points for a guild and guild marks you get in return - like I described bove. Now add gold cost, limited number of production slots - at voila - we have a nice guild killer.
So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
So I think the new crafting system, will be an improvement, over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold, to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still adjust a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' consumption. Which has more than a few concerned. I do now they have committed to closely monitor that: 72 Silver to craft an Adamantine Item while a (PE) Merchant only offers 34 Silver at 0% commission. They may require reducing/revising the amount to craft &/or the amount offered by merchants.
Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved. Not too mention significantly increasing the item level of many Master Crafted works as well. .
And you'll still be able to craft a Several Crates &/or items within Professions, so you'll still be able to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While one was eliminated the Labour Crate, you'll still be able to donate and craft several others, not to mention directly donate other materials directly to the coffer. Yet I'm not sure how I feel about 1-2 temporary merchant's, having the less materials slightly reduced from them.
Thought they may possible be considering a new Strongbox Item?
I realize this is new development, so we are likely to see changes, to this this as it's its a new development.
A DEV recently stated, they were still considering changes to crates &/or materials for coffer donations. So that might include either the value they offer either for the guild, &/or possibly their reward in terms of guild marks for the player.
So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards.
@ilithyn I agree. The guild chat with folks who have been on preview is all about a pause after the Siege event. We lost a few with the random queue changes which hit dungeoneering production which has not recovered. Reduced crate production from professions is likely to be the final straw.
I see that there are dedicated masterwork types who think this will all be better which is fine if you want to spend so much time in professions rather than quests but how anyone can say that large increases in the effort required to make stronghold goods will not affect donations is beyond me.
For me, the biggest issue with the Profession Revamp was expectations. I do not recall seeing the development objectives regarding it. What most people have is dashed expectations. Here is how I see the dev objectives for the Professions Revamp:
- Easier to do ongoing multiple tasks - Add a cost to each task (Gold sink overall) - Add levels to Workshop that provide benefits at a cost (AD Sink/Time Sink/Gold Sink/Combination) - Make crafting more relevant - Add random artisans to make each player's workshop unique - Increase the expense (due to decreased success rate and CoM) of Masterwork items, slowing the flow into the economy - Keep common/rare/epic artisans, but make the difference more meaningful and make them BoC
This is by no means a complete list. Just my quick thoughts.
In regards to gems for the guild. I am not in a guild on test. Can someone see if it allows you to donate the raw gems?
In regards to making the gold crates. On test, when I made high quality gold crates, it gave me 6 crates instead of 3. So making the high quality gives you double the crates. With a forgehammer, this is trivial to do. And you can make 10 per day instantly. So it should be much faster to create. However, there is cost involved. So instead of making gold for the cost of your time, it now costs you some gold to make gold. But you can multiply it quickly.
The AD crates are gathered and it takes 3 hours. But making them high quality is not easy, as the forgehammer does not apply to gathering tasks. I did not check to see if they only allow you to gather AD crates with only one artisan at time. If they allow multiple artisans to gather, this would make it easier to generate the crates.
It is still unclear how they will handle the other crates.
Not allowing a direct AD to Gold exchange is a HUGE mistake IMHO. The current system on test relies on people who have gold to want to convert it to AD. Who can farm lots of gold and want to convert it to AD? Bots. This change is giving them an easy way to generate AD. And it does not take as much AD out of the system as a direct AD for Gold exchange.
@zephyriah There is no labor crate. Now, that mimic position can be filled with raw crafting materials. That is supposed to fill a gap for current workers. Sure you still can donate tham as vouchers but with time all those gona be used up and raw materials gona be all what is left. Current value of items putted to mimic this way is terrible in both - points for a guild and guild marks you get in return - like I described bove. Now add gold cost, limited number of production slots - at voila - we have a nice guild killer.
Wait. What? Raw crafting materials now count as "labor"? @asterdahlTHIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE COMMUNICATION FROM YOU AND/OR OTHER DEVELOPERS AROUND THIS ISSUE.
I'm not in a guild on preview and so I cannot check into this. Additional explanation from someone who is in a guild on preview and can check on this would be greatly appreciated!
OK so if we can persuade the one guild member with a forgehammer to spend their time on gold crates we might mitigate some loss. I am more concerned about Labor. If this is as tortuous a process as gold and/or requires a forgehamme to get any reasonable results then our guild progress is essentially finished. Much of the game activity for the majority of guild members circulates around guild activity and I expect if stronghold progression is made even harder than it already is many will drift away from the game.
I continue to see more down sides to the new profession system as it affects guild donations, guild leveling and also the loss of the usefulness and value of the legendary tools. This morning I received a survey requesting my viewpoints on whether I would recommend products of this company to other players and the response is pretty obvious. The crafting system changes reinforce a negative attitude toward changes that are unnecessary when players need content to play in that is not tedious expensive chore.
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So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
No I think the new crafting system will be an improvement over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still finally TWEAK a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' topic above which has more than a few concerned. I also offered up some suggestions I'd like to see around that.
Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved.
And you'll still be able to craft a few Crates to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While others 'as the person above' identified, will be able to donate materials directly to the coffer. It makes no difference being in a smaller or large guild. Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!
Here's the thing though. Right now you go in the game, pick up the crates you've made and then set up production of new ones, alternately you need to make one (1) kind of items you need for the crates such as vitriol if alchemy. Simple. This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't. And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate. As for everything else? Same HAMSTER. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.)
And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get HAMSTER by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively.
And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level.
Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are HAMSTER over in more ways than one. You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
> @ilithyn said: > So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly. > > But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game. > > No I think the new crafting system will be an improvement over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still finally TWEAK a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' topic above which has more than a few concerned. I also offered up some suggestions I'd like to see around that. > > Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved. > > And you'll still be able to craft a few Crates to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While others 'as the person above' identified, will be able to donate materials directly to the coffer. It makes no difference being in a smaller or large guild. Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to. > > One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful! > > Here's the thing though. Right now you go in the game, pick up the crates you've made and then set up production of new ones, alternately you need to make one (1) kind of items you need for the crates such as vitriol if alchemy. Simple. > This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't. > And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate. > As for everything else? Same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.) > > And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively. > > And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level. > > Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over in more ways than one. > You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
@ilithyn SPOT. ON! Strathkin's problem is not only that he has his rose-colored glasses on, but that he seems to have had them surgically attached to his face. There are way too many steps required to make crates of gold for donation to the guild. Asterdahl has said they're considering increasing those crates' value. While that's nice, I can't see it making any difference. I have absolutely no intention of jumping through all those hoops. I'll just invite the Assayer to the SH instead. Nice and easy and I can tend it four times a day to prevent it getting full and maximize the amount of gold I get from it.
I get your point about small and mid-sized guilds. I'm in a small guild and I manage the professions for both my own characters and my wife's. I am looking forward to being able to collect the results of the tasks much more quickly and I'm hoping to be able to leave most of what my crafters are doing on infinite repeat. I'm still hopeful they'll add crates for surplus equipment and gems back in, but if they're going to make them as complicated as crates of gold then I can't really see the point of bothering with it. In the end, I'll probably make crates/supplies that I have to make in order to progress my guild, but anything I can avoid - like gold - I'll avoid and obtain in other ways.
I don't think the jubilee trader did Labor but it might be a solution if it was added.
If the developers want to turn professions into some sub masterwork activity for a narrow subsection of players then alternatives need to be found for things which rely on the existing professions for folk who never even looked at masterwork.
@zephyriah There is no labor crate. Now, that mimic position can be filled with raw crafting materials. That is supposed to fill a gap for current workers. Sure you still can donate tham as vouchers but with time all those gona be used up and raw materials gona be all what is left. Current value of items putted to mimic this way is terrible in both - points for a guild and guild marks you get in return - like I described bove. Now add gold cost, limited number of production slots - at voila - we have a nice guild killer.
Wait. What? Raw crafting materials now count as "labor"? @asterdahlTHIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE COMMUNICATION FROM YOU AND/OR OTHER DEVELOPERS AROUND THIS ISSUE.
I'm not in a guild on preview and so I cannot check into this. Additional explanation from someone who is in a guild on preview and can check on this would be greatly appreciated!
Yup - its not called a "labor" any more but it fills its place - and yes you can dontate raw materials in there even including materials for MC. Heh 1 bronzewood log gives back 100 guld 1 alum is 40 guild marks and worth just a few points in a coffer - yeah if any1 of you are guild leaders with guilds still not at level 20 I would advice you to buy grandmasters to save them for a time of need.
The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.
@pandulus I am afraid I am with @gripnir78 on this. I have put a lot into the guild to get it as far as it is and do not find the current situation funny at all. Even gallows humor.
Oh well. Seems to me the real intention is the same as many recent changes, to remove currency and items from the economy. Under 20 level Guilds are, as Ilithyn says, acceptable collateral damage. This problem occurs because the devs fail to make a distinction between currencies and tradeable items which they have decided to severely nerf and quest currencies which are not usable for anything else but the quest and are not tradeable. Stronghold donations are part of a quest but can be done with quest currencies and tradeable currencies so it could be an oversight and quest currency was not meant to be nerfed or it may be a deliberate further nerf on tradable currencies by forcing them into the stronghold coffer.
Comments
I agree! I said on a few occasions, after it was announced, to be reduced from 32, it was likely a little " 'too'o " generous!
When they announced the revision, I wrote one DEV saying I hope it not more than 24-27. Cause I generally think I'm one of the more FAIR, or at less biased opinions on the forum. But everyone is entitled to have their say. It doesn't mean we always have to AGREE, as long as we try to be respectful, even when our views differ.
Sure I say, when I think something goes 'too far', but that goes both ways! Often I was one of the 'few' who was actually very supportive of the Bonding nerf. But my goodness they were just 13x more powerful, than virtually every other Runestone, they relegated others to pure Junk status! Or as only RP refinement, in each & every situation.
I just felt sad for @noworries#8859 as he took a lot of heat, having to make that brave, yet albeit necessary transition! He once commented, 'he wished he could have handled it better', yet from everything I saw, I thought he handled it extremely well--very professional!
But that sometimes has 'some' either IGNORE me... Which I don't mind, they aren't being mean or nasty, but I've had several incorrect labels, or attacks come as well... ...just try my best to brush those off, and regain my mostly positive attitude. Cause I do also understand, why some are passionate as well, it takes a lot to advance a character!
We can already acess the current system without vip from anywhere, it should still remain this way for non cashers too. otherwise it is stripping the game of a basic function.
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Anyway it is qualified will deny someone use, it should be added to all waypoints. But to be honest, I have no issue with it being an additional bonus for VIP if it stays that way. I would oppose it as a guild bonus.
I do think it would be nice addition on the Stronghold Map, if we had a very similar looking building edited to add: 'workshop' (outside & inside) visible and accessible on the stronghold map for sure. To draw to attention to parties below.
Or maybe DEVs will consider that for the up & coming Stronghold update MOD: Mod 16, 17, or 18? But likely all within the next year.
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One thing I'd love to see is a new Stronghold Structure like Crafters Trade House!
They'd could add a Crafter's Trade House somewhere around back, perhaps not too far from the Temporary Merchants out back, where all crafters in the guild could perhaps Gather. As your guild upgrades the Trade House, which would be seperate from the Workshop it could unlock new features! Perhaps they could add a Similar looking Workshop identical to the one in Protector's Enclave, out by the Elven Cabin in the Fey Wood's near the location for the Siege Smithy? Provided you don't mind spider's lurking not too far away?
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Thoughts a Crafter's Trade House Stronghold Structure might offer aside from Guild Boons:
DEVs A personal challenge for more unique SH structures for crafters: to trade/co-operate in D&D spirit similar to this...
Example:
Perhaps at Level 1 it might allow you to list 2 items for trade. One item might be '50' Gold Ore you'd trade for anyone in either your guild &/or only your alliance guilds, but perhaps from any guild as long as they in one. At level one it might only allow you to list 1 possible item you'd take for 40 Lacquer Branch. It may allow you to list 5 items for trade as well. All items would require to be posted first, and you'd selecting the # and specific item you'd take in trade.
Perhaps at Level 2 it might allow you to list 2 items for trade. Only now provide two different ways to complete the trade.
Perhaps at Level 10 it might allow you to list 10 items, but now with 1, 2 or 3 different items you'd take in trade. So if you had 50 Gold Ore you could now request either 1 of any of the 3: 250 Slacked Lime, 40 Lacquer Branch, or 5 Aberrant Leather Strap - any one of the 3 would complete the trade. If someoen filled any one of those items they'd then receive mail to get their new item, and you'd then receive the single item of the 3 they offered in trade. This would help crafter's work together as long as they were in a guild!
The structure allows Crafter's to list materials with 1, 2, or 3 items they'd take in trade As long as the person listing belonged to a guild who had at least a level 1 structure they could potentially list or make offers for items. It would also be a sort of social place at the guild where all crafters could go informally trade materials.
I'd love to see a Trade Emporium on the Stronghold, not to mention a similar Workshop inside & out.
@mimicking#6533
@nitocris83
All I am saying - @strathkin - you need to be more carefull a bit. Previously you supported a "change" witch bringed just a pure harm and was anything but a real change. I hope this time you are correct - but then again I am not that optimistic.
Why I am sayint that - in short I am experienced MC - for me at the end it is not important if I am gona have a nice looking workshop - its not important if I m gona have a new artisans with special skills - final result it what counts.
End it turns out that a chance to even create a top tier item droped from even 95% (75% average) to ca 60%.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Failing attemt do not leave you any leftovers. Previously 2-3 failed attempts left enaugh materials for another try.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Crrating any items demands additional, and quite substantiial amounts of gold.
Pure loss for a crafter.
Getting proper artisans team and full workshop upgrade will demand a lot of time, gold and/or ZEN/AD.
Pure loss for a crafter.
So do I mind it - a bit - all additional costs wll impact a final price for a buyer.
Pure loss for a buyers
I will loose mostly a time to go trough this change. But put me aside. New player or players not already on a high crafting levels gona have hard time to improve. Production of guild materials gona be expensive due to amount of gold required.
Pure loss for a guild development.
So is that change is good - I dont think so- crafting needed a rework. If its well thought trough it can lead to be a game inside a game. But I guess not this time. Sure it has some nice aspects, or good looking to be more precise, but it seems that on a long run it wont change anything at all and be more hurting that it seems now.
In general that profession rework seems to perfectly fit lately introduced Cryptic policy I call a "diminishing returns".
How it works - here is an example.
With mod 15 your guild mimic is improved. No it accepts a range of different crafting materials.
For a first glance its a good change as it fills a gap made with workers/artisans rework.
But all those materials now require a lot of time/gold to collect them and offer not much points for a coffer.
Perfect example are mastercraft materials - you spent 1500/3000 guild marks to get 6 pieces of materials worth so small amount of points that those return just 40/100 guild marks a piece. So you get back just 20%. Now that is encouraging.
So even with a guild boon during double proffesions event you gona spent 3000 guild marks to get 2400 in return.
Now I know that guild development shouldnt be free/easy but that?
I can respect your opinion. I don't think anybody like's a nerf by any stretch. Still bondings are in a much better place today. I'd like it if they improved other Runestone's even a little bit more! But getting back on topic... I think this was likely a similar reason the DEVs felt a need to 'slightly' reduce the Artisan limit. I've seen some state 26, I'd even be fine with 25, as the upper threshold! For the same reason above.
For example: Gold is going to be on ongoing challenge for 'everyone' unless we have some additional methods to earn it. I'm seeing Platinum Gold Plates are now able to stack 99x high, as I saw it x27 but never got it beyond that. They've possibly extended several items stack limits, to allow bigger stacks sold on the Auction House. Still I do think they may need to re-visit some of the gold costs for recipe's, not to mention what merchant are willing to offer you for Crafted Gear!. With an Artisan who has 0% Commission, it shouldn't likely cost you 72 Silver to craft a 70 (Rare) piece of Gear, yet a Merchant in PE will only offer you 34 Silver for it. Even with -25% or -50% Commission, you'd likely barely break even. Cause as I've stated at 0% Commission your looking at almost a loss of 2.19x almost. They should be reconsidering some of the Silver values Merchants offer for crafted works 90+ Silver, perhaps 34 silver is fine for Random (Rare) gear that drops from Enemy.
For the last few weeks everyone has been scrambling to save / collect any and all gold they can before GO LIVE. Aside from suggestion above, perhaps some recipes will slightly reduce gold costs to produce, or a combination of reducing the cost and offering slightly more at Merchants? Though we don't also know if perhaps we'll see a few new items, to be found in skills nodes, dungeons chests, or other locations, or can drop from Enemy... ...possibly with a higher Silver &/or Gold value? Who knows...?
As for the other comment (75% average) to ca 60% sure, I admit it's going to be a little bit harder! Yet the Mastercraft Gear has also been significantly improved, thus making it more attractive and extending it's usefulness! If you're already Mastercraft V you'll be able to make it right away, and 'most' Master Crafter's always try getting top diamond! Some won't even wait for Workshop 4, if they can begin producing it right away they will, just with 2-3 lucky Artisan's in their profession of choice, and good luck from Epic Artisans at Retainer. Everybody who unlocked Professional Slot 7-9 will get 3 Epic choices in whatever Profession they choose. Once they do get Workshop 4 they may even have Epic's Artisan's apply to their shop from time to time. I suspect most Master Crafter's aren't the patient type, as they'll want to establish themselves early on, or mostly so they can sell items for top dollar before everyone else. But it comes down to choice.
So all the materials that used to produce 480 gear, is now suddenly able to craft 560, and that's without potential for higher quality! I suspect with the diamonds Master Crafters make for items, they'll likely be able to buy items on Auction House, from the average Joe to easily recovery the gold for items produced. The average crafter will likely struggle a little more, yet there gear shouldn't cost as much Gold to produce either.
So as I said before: the risk is a little higher sure, but the rewards got a lot more attractive. So I have to trust DEVs will ensure mechanisms exists for all crafters, at least those who want to craft to find ways to earn gold if crafting is something they enjoy! I try to remain hopeful! So hopefully you'll join me.
If they are going to require us to craft gems to donate them directly to the guild coffer, then the gems had better be worth a lot more in coffer value than they currently are! The same goes for surplus equipment if they don't add crates: the equipment we can craft with the new system had better be worth quite a lot to the coffer!
@asterdahl can we get some clarification on this, please? You guys have been worse than glacially slow at communicating with us around these issues. It would be nice to have an understanding of what to expect to be added to the recipes for guild donations, even if you won't be able to get those recipes added before this goes live on 6 November. A little communication goes a long way, you know, and you guys haven't really been giving us any substantive or worthwhile communication about this, despite the number of players inquiring about this in this thread.
But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved. Not too mention significantly increasing the item level of many Master Crafted works as well. .
And you'll still be able to craft a Several Crates &/or items within Professions, so you'll still be able to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While one was eliminated the Labour Crate, you'll still be able to donate and craft several others, not to mention directly donate other materials directly to the coffer. Yet I'm not sure how I feel about 1-2 temporary merchant's, having the less materials slightly reduced from them.
Thought they may possible be considering a new Strongbox Item?
I realize this is new development, so we are likely to see changes, to this this as it's its a new development.
A DEV recently stated, they were still considering changes to crates &/or materials for coffer donations. So that might include either the value they offer either for the guild, &/or possibly their reward in terms of guild marks for the player.
So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards.
So try to remain hopeful.
I see that there are dedicated masterwork types who think this will all be better which is fine if you want to spend so much time in professions rather than quests but how anyone can say that large increases in the effort required to make stronghold goods will not affect donations is beyond me.
- Easier to do ongoing multiple tasks
- Add a cost to each task (Gold sink overall)
- Add levels to Workshop that provide benefits at a cost (AD Sink/Time Sink/Gold Sink/Combination)
- Make crafting more relevant
- Add random artisans to make each player's workshop unique
- Increase the expense (due to decreased success rate and CoM) of Masterwork items, slowing the flow into the economy
- Keep common/rare/epic artisans, but make the difference more meaningful and make them BoC
This is by no means a complete list. Just my quick thoughts.
In regards to gems for the guild. I am not in a guild on test. Can someone see if it allows you to donate the raw gems?
In regards to making the gold crates. On test, when I made high quality gold crates, it gave me 6 crates instead of 3. So making the high quality gives you double the crates. With a forgehammer, this is trivial to do. And you can make 10 per day instantly. So it should be much faster to create. However, there is cost involved. So instead of making gold for the cost of your time, it now costs you some gold to make gold. But you can multiply it quickly.
The AD crates are gathered and it takes 3 hours. But making them high quality is not easy, as the forgehammer does not apply to gathering tasks. I did not check to see if they only allow you to gather AD crates with only one artisan at time. If they allow multiple artisans to gather, this would make it easier to generate the crates.
It is still unclear how they will handle the other crates.
Not allowing a direct AD to Gold exchange is a HUGE mistake IMHO. The current system on test relies on people who have gold to want to convert it to AD. Who can farm lots of gold and want to convert it to AD? Bots. This change is giving them an easy way to generate AD. And it does not take as much AD out of the system as a direct AD for Gold exchange.
I'm not in a guild on preview and so I cannot check into this. Additional explanation from someone who is in a guild on preview and can check on this would be greatly appreciated!
Escape the Ordinary GH 20
Lord Havok GWF
Lady Icethorn CW
Brother Heals DC
Lord Bubble OP
Sister Tetera GF
This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't.
And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate.
As for everything else? Same HAMSTER. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.)
And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get HAMSTER by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively.
And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level.
Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are HAMSTER over in more ways than one.
You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
> So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
>
> But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
>
> No I think the new crafting system will be an improvement over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still finally TWEAK a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' topic above which has more than a few concerned. I also offered up some suggestions I'd like to see around that.
>
> Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved.
>
> And you'll still be able to craft a few Crates to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While others 'as the person above' identified, will be able to donate materials directly to the coffer. It makes no difference being in a smaller or large guild. Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
>
> One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!
>
> Here's the thing though. Right now you go in the game, pick up the crates you've made and then set up production of new ones, alternately you need to make one (1) kind of items you need for the crates such as vitriol if alchemy. Simple.
> This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't.
> And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate.
> As for everything else? Same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.)
>
> And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively.
>
> And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level.
>
> Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over in more ways than one.
> You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
Well said.
I get your point about small and mid-sized guilds. I'm in a small guild and I manage the professions for both my own characters and my wife's. I am looking forward to being able to collect the results of the tasks much more quickly and I'm hoping to be able to leave most of what my crafters are doing on infinite repeat. I'm still hopeful they'll add crates for surplus equipment and gems back in, but if they're going to make them as complicated as crates of gold then I can't really see the point of bothering with it. In the end, I'll probably make crates/supplies that I have to make in order to progress my guild, but anything I can avoid - like gold - I'll avoid and obtain in other ways.
I also agree with ilithyn. This looks like a guild breaker for my guild too.
If the developers want to turn professions into some sub masterwork activity for a narrow subsection of players then alternatives need to be found for things which rely on the existing professions for folk who never even looked at masterwork.
The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.