@zephyriah There is no labor crate. Now, that mimic position can be filled with raw crafting materials. That is supposed to fill a gap for current workers. Sure you still can donate tham as vouchers but with time all those gona be used up and raw materials gona be all what is left. Current value of items putted to mimic this way is terrible in both - points for a guild and guild marks you get in return - like I described bove. Now add gold cost, limited number of production slots - at voila - we have a nice guild killer.
Wait. What? Raw crafting materials now count as "labor"? @asterdahlTHIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE COMMUNICATION FROM YOU AND/OR OTHER DEVELOPERS AROUND THIS ISSUE.
I'm not in a guild on preview and so I cannot check into this. Additional explanation from someone who is in a guild on preview and can check on this would be greatly appreciated!
Yup - its not called a "labor" any more but it fills its place - and yes you can dontate raw materials in there even including materials for MC. Heh 1 bronzewood log gives back 100 guld 1 alum is 40 guild marks and worth just a few points in a coffer - yeah if any1 of you are guild leaders with guilds still not at level 20 I would advice you to buy grandmasters to save them for a time of need.
The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.
Clearly, I am going to have to spend some time on preview this weekend and get into a guild to have a look.
The devs have maybe forgotten why they put stronghold goods into professions in the first place. Their original stronghold concept was far too hard for much of the player base so they were given a helping hand by being able to craft resources for donation through professions. That issue of stronghold difficulty has not gone away. Almost all under 20 guilds will still be struggling. Ask the devs a different question and they say the gap between level 20 guilds and the rest poses a constraint on game design (unlike professions where they are clearly aiming for a minority pursuit effectively excluding many existing profession crafters). So why make it harder for guilds to level up?
If the developers want to turn professions into some sub masterwork activity for a narrow subsection of players then alternatives need to be found for things which rely on the existing professions for folk who never even looked at masterwork.
Basically this. If they want to make crafting an exclusive experience for those enjoy micro management on every level that's fine, but as they've set up the SH system as being reliant on crafting they need to make some form of substitution possible since a good deal of guilds who are not done growing will not have any of these players, or very few of them. Ffs, we're in a D&D inspired MMO, not a crafting sim. But that nuance seems to have escaped the devs. Or maybe they simply don't care about D&D players, but only sim players idk.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I think this was likely a similar reason the DEVs felt a need to 'slightly' reduce the Artisan limit. I've seen some state 26, I'd even be fine with 25, as the upper threshold! If at Launch it started with 8, 14, 19, 25 I'd be fine with it. I never once asked for it, but still I will support it.
I'm glad you support it, but on what is your support based on? Can you please illuminate me at cost difference between 26 and 32?
I'm not saying I don't agree with 'some' if not several of the very things your saying. Something about me 'most' don't realize: I like playing devil's advocate
Repeatedly saying "I like" (nor "I hate") doesn't bring anything new to the table. Have you calculated the costs involved? What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages? Empty words and empty hopes of "it will be adjusted" do not convince me.
For example: Gold is going to be on ongoing challenge for 'everyone' unless we have some additional methods to earn it. I'm seeing Platinum Gold Plates are now able to stack 99x high, or possibly 999x, I never let it build up to see the limit? They've possibly extended several items stack limits, allowing bigger stacks sold on the Auction House. Still I do think they may need to re-visit some of the gold costs for recipe's, not to mention what merchant are willing to offer you for Crafted Gear!. With an Artisan who has 0% Commission, it shouldn't likely cost you 72 Silver to craft a 70 (Rare) piece of Gear, yet a Merchant in PE will only offer you 34 Silver for it. Even with -25% or -50% Commission, you'd likely barely break even. They should likely be reconsidering some of the Silver values Merchants offer for several crafted works? Perhaps offering 90+ Silver or more if it's High Quality Gear! Cause as I've stated at 0% Commission your looking at almost a loss of 2.19x almost.
Gold is not going to be a continued issue for everyone. It is going to be a continued issue for crafters, but let me ask you this, what was removed from skill nodes so many mods ago and why?
The answer will be RP, and the why will be botting.
I suspect that devs looked at the entire sum of gold in the economy, instead of the nominal gold gain and gold on crafters, when setting the costs.
Plenty of people have piles of gold, crafters will run out fast, really fast, devs, historically adjust to changes too slowly, that will create a demand and spike in value. Who will feel that void, for a task that is tedious to humans but easy to a script? Yes, you guess it right..
Except that gold can be directly traded and can't made "BtA", this will bring limits and repeated issues that harder to handle and will as byproduct limit the crafters more.
So we will be back to mod3 RP, when the market suppliers are the bots, laundered via actual human crafters, because there will be no practical choice, and the costs go onto the final buyers.
I don't suggest to remove the gold component, but setting the prices too high, will create an unwanted spike and instead generating additional value for the random gold drops, it will create 'black market' or on the other hand deter from doing the tasks that sink gold to begin with.
Who will do a stack of peridots if a single one costs crapton of stuff and 1 gold, when a stack of peridots goes for 4k AD, and 1 gold for 100 - 250 AD, this means crafting, even without the effort, materials, investment in the unlocks, time, and taken slots is higher cost than the result. Include all the costs mentioned and it's not even the same category of costs...
The prices need to start low, and adjusted, not start high and perhaps maybe someday looked into.
For the last few weeks everyone has been scrambling to save / collect any and all gold they can before GO LIVE. Aside from suggestion above, perhaps some recipes will have cheaper gold costs, on a few select items, so as to help recover costs or make a slight profit. Perhaps we'll see a few new items, to be found in skills nodes, dungeons chests, or other locations, or can drop from Enemy... ...possibly with of higher Silver &/or Gold value? Who knows...?
What perhaps? The mod is on preview? Did you see new gold items? or what not..
What "Who knows"? We know, we went to preview and checked... Do the same. Or ask for clarification, but when we ask for one, the reply of a player "perhaps it will be alright" doesn't contribute.
As for the other comment (75% average) to ca 60% sure, I admit it's going to be a little bit harder!
Again, what is that "little but harder", quantify to me that little, combined with slot reductions to 26. What you mean by little ? 100mil AD? 200mil AD? I think I'm on a the poor side of veteran players, and yet richer than you, and I look at a spreadsheet that tells me that that little becomes father and farther from affordable or more correctly - will return the investment, assuming I'm willing to do it, or worse sustain it until it does return.
I'm not for making MW and other things too available, yes it should have investment costs, but with claims of it's great and should be limited more, I want to see what it's based on, because I've missed the costs of the zen pack, and the % for daily recruitment and other factors that will allow me to form a based on facts opinion. My educated guesses show the opposite.
Yet the Mastercraft Gear has also been significantly improved, thus making it more attractive and extending it's usefulness! If you're already Mastercraft V you'll be able to make it right away, and 'most' Master Crafter's always try getting top diamond! Some won't even wait for Workshop 4, if they can begin producing it right away they will, just with 2-3 lucky Artisan's in their profession of choice, and good luck from Epic Artisans at Retainer.
This is a nice theory, did you try it in practice?
1. What is the chance to get exactly the 2 artisans needed out of 3 attempts out of god knows how many options.
2. If you didn't notice, but to make +1 you may want +1 ingredients to get the focus bonus, that means doing the whole chain, but alas the MW chain is not limited to a single profession, that means that the other artisans need to come from somewhere, and produce +1 results with high chance, because +1 ingredients will be expansive, very very, expensive.
3. Counting the issue, what will be the investment in artisans, or repeated failure costs from using worse artisans, and as opposed to that what is the acceptable market price ? How many will be willing to buy a MW piece for 20mil AD? Will you buy one?
Everybody who unlocked Professional Slot 7-9 will get 3 Epic choices in whatever Profession they choose. Once they do get Workshop 4 they may even have Epic's Artisan's apply to their shop from time to time. I suspect most Master Crafter's aren't the patient type, as they'll want to establish themselves early on, or mostly so they can sell items for top dollar before everyone else. But it comes down to choice.
Patience has nothing to do with it, it is only about return of investment, wait to long, and you get no buyers, because everyone who could afford the next best thing bought one, and the price can go only so low before it is not worth it.
The more you invest, the sooner you can enter the market, but the most you risk.
I suspect with the diamonds Master Crafters make for items, they'll likely be able to buy items on Auction House, from the average Joe to easily recovery the gold for items produced. The average crafter will likely struggle a little more, yet there gear shouldn't cost as much Gold to produce either.
I have no idea what the process you describe here. The gold price and the added trade profits will be included in the end result. If today a MW ring costs half million, and tomorrow with exactly the same demand and production costs it will need additional 10 gold, and the gold goes for 10k per gold and takes 3 trades to convert from AD to gold, then the ring will go for at least 633k AD (assuming 10% loss/profit per conversion).
So as I said before: the risk is a little higher sure, but the rewards got a lot more attractive. So I have to trust DEVs will ensure mechanisms exists for all crafters, at least those who want to craft to find ways to earn gold if crafting is something they enjoy! I try to remain hopeful! So hopefully you'll join me.
The mod is on preview, there is no unseen mechanisms of tiny dwarves mining gold, or 'have to trust' the powers to be, this is a feedback thread, and the feedback should be based on how the system works, and not false gods and false hopes.
@ilithyn I doubt they have a preference. That one group is being favoured over another is simply a by product of looking for all possible mechanisms to remove currency and trad-able goods from the system. Because some people like crafting as a main activity and have been asking for an overhaul and will probably like the outcome does not mean that the decision to act has anything to do with them. Complaints from groups within the player-base are heard more loudly when they provide an excuse for Cryptic to make adjustments it feels it needs to make for its own reasons.
Complaints from groups within the player-base are heard more loudly when they provide an excuse for Cryptic to make adjustments it feels it needs to make for its own reasons.
Which is called "having a preference"... Do you not know English or is your problem elsewhere?
Edit: Seeing by your account that you seem to have made it with the sole purpose of disagreeing with me and I strongly suspect you're a sock puppet, I'm not going to respond to your harassment any longer. Have fun caping for the devs.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
Eh at least goldsellers will sell gold for once... sigh. I suspect they did exactly that, looking at how much gold there is in the game in general. Except that bots who pick up everything during random levelling, or pick every node, etc, may have thousands more gold than actual players, who need it to create campaign keys, and to unslot enchants. 10 gold for one attempt to a MW5 item, with ~65% chance of success without any refund on fail... people better buy their MW weapons now and not hope for having +1 versions for under 15M...
actual players, who need it to create campaign keys, and to unslot enchants.
Don't forget about the 5g per campaign voucher for donating to the guild, such as from Sharandar, Dread Ring, and IWD. I regularly make these and it has kept my characters at approximately the same amount of gold for months now. Granted, I'm not running any gold bonus items, like enchants, boons, or artifacts.
@ilithyn Wow touchy. I saw my posts as broadly in alignment with yours criticising the same things and 'liked' your post at 12:39. If that is what you call disagreement you might examine yourself to find who has a problem.
> yeah if any1 of you are guild leaders with guilds still not at level 20 I would advice you to buy grandmasters to save them for a time of need. > > The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.
Has this been tried on preview? I thought all your professions assets got turned into a points pot to spend on assets in the new system. Do you get a choice between turning them into points and donating them to the coffer? I had seen a recovery in AH prices but thought that was people looking to maximise their points total.
I would be interested in the answer to that one. What to do with assets and when to do it. Buy, sell, donate, trade in for points. Knowing whether you still have choices after 6 Nov would be useful.
If it works like it currently does on preview, all of your assets will be automatically converted into vouchers. You then decide what to do with those vouchers - trade them in the workshop for asset credit, donate them, sell them, etc.
Thanks so if an grandmaster whatever is worth more to me as fodder for the coffer than points in the new crafting system better donate it soon. I will have another look but I only made stronghold stuff and the replacement for that looks pretty dire so I may just dump all assets in the coffer and have done with it.
@zephyriah There is no labor crate. Now, that mimic position can be filled with raw crafting materials. That is supposed to fill a gap for current workers. Sure you still can donate tham as vouchers but with time all those gona be used up and raw materials gona be all what is left. Current value of items putted to mimic this way is terrible in both - points for a guild and guild marks you get in return - like I described bove. Now add gold cost, limited number of production slots - at voila - we have a nice guild killer.
Wait. What? Raw crafting materials now count as "labor"? @asterdahlTHIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE COMMUNICATION FROM YOU AND/OR OTHER DEVELOPERS AROUND THIS ISSUE.
I'm not in a guild on preview and so I cannot check into this. Additional explanation from someone who is in a guild on preview and can check on this would be greatly appreciated!
Professionals in Professional Packs no longer drop, you'll still receive Professional Vouchers for Labor.
Either can then be traded for ASSET credit, to then exchange for MATERIAL credit, or Professional Labor Vouchers can also be donated directly to coffer for Labor. Also even if you trade your Professional Vouchers for Asset Credit, you can use to convert to material, and some can be donated directly to the coffer. I think the one DEV stated this was by design as the new system has no equivalent. Since Artisans can only be accepted or declined in the new system and can't be resold.
Hopefully however we'll continue seeing Professional Packs dropping from Lockboxes though?
Not sure I like removing 'some' common materials from 1-2 temp. merchants. But as long as options exist through other means, which does at least currently seem to be the case.
I think they still allow the Recruiter, &/or Gem Cutter to still be summoned or tended by the guild to work together. Their are no guild marks for doing so, but still that's something all guild members can do together to grow.
DEVs consider a few Stronghold Updates: Please & Thank You - Consider Healthier Guilds = Healthier player base.
Currently 'most' donate Influence, a few donate Gems, & was AD removed/nerfed?.
Nice to add a Strongbox of Labour - rewarding Major Professional Vouchers that already exist?
Nice to see an Improvement to Crates - especially given Gold Cost &/or Material crafting costs
Nice to Improve a few Common Voucher's rebalanced: Some offer 1 Guild Mark - Others 25+?
Be good to have Common Vouchers drop a little more: Maurader's, HE's, NPC's.
Perhaps some of those revisions however are being considered, cause I know there a upcoming Stronghold MOD? I know it's coming in the next year, yet don't know if it's Mod 16, 17, or 18. There have been hints &/or speculation it's coming...
@pandulus I am afraid I am with @gripnir78 on this. I have put a lot into the guild to get it as far as it is and do not find the current situation funny at all. Even gallows humor.
As for this comment above I empathize with you.
Attempting to build a guild is no small feat by any imagination! I'm actually impressed and very admiring seeing a new guilds coming out of the woodwork. More Leadership is often required growing new guilds, and also has the best hopes of maintaining an active & engaged Roster. Sometimes it requires a little creativity, like monthly contest based on contributions, some guilds try to ask members try to run a minimal Influence Donation, others coordinate Marauder's runs, or Alliance Dragon Flights. I've seen Guild Leaders offer up Strongbox Key's keys to members since it helps them grow the guild, buy what options are available to everyone will vary from Leader to Leader. I've seen others guilds be successful simply be getting into an Alliance if they weren't in one. I've also seen change alliances and be do a little better. Sometimes it not even a change of Alliance but welcome 1-2 new Guilds.
Sometimes a more senior level guilds can offer a bit more help junior guilds. Other times it's because their a little more active and encourage the player base to get more involved. I can't say what will work for you or what options you've even looked into. Encouraging or working together to run daily/weekly or various guilds quests as a guild &/or alliance as often the carrot's work best. Also encourage members during the Siege Event to get the quest from the Master of Coin.
My guild is social. Relatives and close friends. I have no interest in joining a larger guild or an alliance. As the stronghold is an important part of maintaining guild activity I expect that being blocked off from meaningful progress will just mean transferring playing time to other games with NW play much more casual, such as logging on for a new broom. There has been no discussion of this as yet though I am aware that some guildies also have a guild in ESO. There may be others with ready made new homes.
So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
No I think the new crafting system will be an improvement over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still finally TWEAK a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' topic above which has more than a few concerned. I also offered up some suggestions I'd like to see around that.
Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved.
And you'll still be able to craft a few Crates to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While others 'as the person above' identified, will be able to donate materials directly to the coffer. It makes no difference being in a smaller or large guild. Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!
Here's the thing though. Right now you go in the game, pick up the crates you've made and then set up production of new ones, alternately you need to make one (1) kind of items you need for the crates such as vitriol if alchemy. Simple. This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't. And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate. As for everything else? Same HAMSTER. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.)
And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get HAMSTER by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively.
And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level.
Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are HAMSTER over in more ways than one. You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
Oh my - favorite Elf / Vulcan from STO is taking her frustration out on me.
I'm not pretending nothing! Regardless if 7 people Agreed with you, or the 1 who Liked it, or even the 1 who found it Awesome!
I never said 'anything' to even IMPLY or even suggest it was 'not' a lot more complicated. The 'only' thing I said if you 'read' it above was that:
It will likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold; so hopefully we given new ways to make up for it.
They still need &/or have acknowledge: revisions to crates &/or materials donated to coffer & rewards offered.
Most Gear &/or Items you craft will be significantly improved - rewards from crates should be no different.
Note when I say rewards should be improved, I mean not only what they offer to the Guild, but also the guild marks you receive.
I don't like it, when others put worth in my mouth, I haven't in fact said or even implied! The only thing I clearly expressed which should have been obvious, was they acknowledged they likely still need to 'tweak' a few aspects, at least around what is required material for crates, not to mention the rewards some of them offer.
DEVs please take note: 1st: Introduce tiers of crates; 2nd: Simply hoops; 3rd: Improve the Rewards!
We just recently saw Crates even introduced, so it's likely just the first pass and we've have seen other things revised or improved, so hopefully crates have more tiers offered some with far less hoops, and several see far improved gain's for the guild &/or player!
Especially if it's now also costing you Gold just to create them in addition to Materials!
Still I think some need to give them a week or two to possibly revise / update it. I agree they need to improve the rewards in Crates, have hinted they may still yet be making some changes to them.
Thanks so if an grandmaster whatever is worth more to me as fodder for the coffer than points in the new crafting system better donate it soon. I will have another look but I only made stronghold stuff and the replacement for that looks pretty dire so I may just dump all assets in the coffer and have done with it.
Unless they change something, you can still donate them even after the mod goes live. The vouchers are still donatable just as the people they replaced were.
Happy with having a smaller artisan cap! Its extremely discouraging to even want to be a "top crafter" if any and everyone has the ability to solo craft all the best masterworks and with the best cost/stats. Very much like having level 25 professions now. Why even call it masterworks if 10,000 people can do exactly the same thing with same results? Sounds like "averageworks" then. I, and many other crafters I spoke to all feel the same way. Much like hunts have spurred more interaction amongst the community, doing so with masterworks would also carry many of those same benefits.
My goodness @micky1p00 I'm not going to get into a massive deep dive, I've used up the maximum characters before I even typed but a single sentence in trying to quote you. My comment was simply a statement of support for the author above who I 'thought' did an excellent job explaining himself! I agree 32 Artisans was likely a little too'o generous! It gave a little too many options to have Artisans some with low commissions yet still decent/good Proficiency &/or Focus, with others being far more specialized in Proficiency & Focus, Special Skills &/or Speed even if they had High Commissions.
The DEVs clearly explained they do not want everybody have 1 artisan in all 4 ranges, across all 8 professions! So people can pick & choose the ideal situation each and every time. I thought @winzardwinter has clearly articulated that exact point! Yet seems you've mostly taken aim at me... ...despite sharing a least some of your concerns.
Yet similar to @winzardwinter 6-9 months ago I also asked Master Crafters on the ARC forums: Should the Mastercraft I tool (common) that on Live today currently giving 0% Quality, be expanded to 8% similar to all Well-Worn tools sold at the Professional Vendor? That answer was not only a stark no, I even had 'a few' Master Crafter's attack me cause they didn't want Mastercraft easier to get intoMastercraft II. Realize Mastercraft III-V is currently 3x easier on LIVE today as you now had 4x purple tools, not just 3x, and that's if you don't even have the Gond tool. So realize Master Crafter's themselves even stated they wanted it even harder to get into. Today it is 75% with Gond. I was just sad Master Crafters said they wanted it harder to get into. Now it seems Cryptic did just that.
So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that - they also significantly improved the Gear! And you don't require doing anything to even start crafting it if you're already into Mastercraft V. I understand what was 75% is now potentially 60%.
If your 'wise' [I'm not suggesting your not - you've likely already tested which profession - and buy one only at a time based on Proficiency &/or Focus before opening another] and likely selective in choosing your 3Epic Artisan's you obtain from the Retainer so you'll likely find 1/2 in at least 1 if not 2 professions and be able to craft right away. Even if your only upgraded to Workshop 3 - sure you don't even need that or Workshop 2. Those just allow you take take delivery of more items & also have more Artisans. You're still using the same materials you gathered &/or upgraded, just now the item level of that gear has grown significantly to 560-570, and I suspect the prices people ask will also be more [BiS]. Still some Master Crafters will likely want the best Artisan's as quickly as possible - but that is a choice you don't have to make - yet most will likely not be able to resist, as they want it right away to maximize what they ask. If some people are willing to pay or fork over ZEN is another story entirely...
I SAID: "I'm not saying I don't agree with 'some' if not several of the very things your saying. Something about me 'most' don't realize: I like playing devil's advocate" But I'm also not dishonest with my opinions either.
YOU REPLIED: "Repeatedly saying "I like" (nor "I hate") doesn't bring anything new to the table. Have you calculated the costs involved? What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?"
MY REPLY: Completely unfounded/unfair.
Because I actually one of the few people who often offers several specific examples & many suggestions on how things could/might be away to help address concerns. Often there is rarely a reply where I don't offer 1, 2 or 3 possible solutions. I've done it with Gold earnings suggesting several ways that could be handled. In response to another girl concerned about Crates, I had to again restated exactly what I said, as she implied things I wasn't, I only said that they were reconsidering rewards offered, as we just saw the first introduction of crates, and even offered several ways they may address it. Possibly to reintroduce more tiers of crates, with far less hoops, gold or material required. DEVs acknowledge they reconsidering or adjusting crates still. So lets give them time to make the adjustments before people get upset too early. I even added with the Stronghold update coming in Mod 16/17/18: They may add/revise Strongboxes perhaps a Strongbox of Labor including Professional/Major Labor Vouchers, or allow more Common Vouchers to drop, or even more Daily quests for Green Vouchers, were some but not all the examples I provided. Much earlier in this thread I also agreed with another guy who thought Artisans needed more than +400. I in fact also agreed with him, just suggested perhaps that was the wrong approach, that they may likely need to reconsider what some tools provide. In fact within a week or so we saw several changes made to several tools. Some might like a more Proficiency & Focus on more tools. But to the point the Winzard made if everybody could do it easily and consistently produce highly valuable items it be average crafting.
You're just focused in on one statement, where I simply stated I agree with at least 'some' things your saying, and instead you use it to slap my face with it. I'm also not twisting or putting words in your mouth, simply because your upset with how DEVs have changed things. You ignore all the benefit of the new system, and instead focus only on the negatives, as the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. I try to take the good with the bad. Yet still I'm concerned about gold and how that may work - but try to remain positive - as DEVs have stated they will closely monitor it.
But Patience isn't a trait I'd likely think is something Master Crafters have in abundance - because they all want to Capitalize to make the absolute most Diamonds they can before others do... ...but that's not how I play or try to get 'enjoyment' from the game. I do have Patience & also try to remain far more 'hopeful' than most.
I'll just put on my Negativity Shades to block out tox·ic·i·ty and lets in the light!
Thank You Corellon! For requesting Labelas Enoreth in the Knowledge Domain with Gond: The gift to my Evles of tox·ic·i·ty shades is
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
today and the answer was a stark no! I even had Master Crafter's attack me cause they didn't want Mastercraft to be made easier to get into Mastercraft II even if Mastercraft III-V was 3x easier than the first stage as you now had 4x purple tools, not just 3x. So realize Master Crafter's themselves even stated they wanted it even harder to get into, they just didn't seem to think it might also influence the gear they craft.
So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that
"slightly higher"? Did you even try to quantify the difference between that 8% on entrance, and the change in number of slots? Do you grasp the difference between making the entry point of 10mil AD cheaper, and lets say doubling an entry point or more? Where you took the "slightly higher" part from ? Please, I will really would like to understand that calculation.
they also significantly improved the Gear! And you don't require doing anything to even start crafting it if you're already into Mastercraft V.
I don't understand, have you actually tried things on preview or you keep responding by your interpretation of the notes?
I'll try it with colors, I will need to spend millions on artisans and the whole chain of materials before crafting even a roll of toilet paper Or wait about 2-3 mods until by some chance the artisans come to me themselves, or the last and 'best' option, craft with pleb artisans and craft at a loss vs someone who bought the better artisans.
Do you understand the chances involved there now? This is not 75%-95% with partial return on materials, and some nice added chance for some nice +1. It is fail = loose the whole chain.
If your 'wise' and selective in choosing your 3Epic Artisan's you obtain from the Retainer you'll likely find 1/2 in at least 1 if not 2 professions and be able to craft right away. Even if your only upgraded to Workshop 3.
What "wise and selective"?
You are mixing things without any relation to how things work. I can craft MW without upgrading anything, and with the first common artisan I get. How much AD I'll loose on that endeavor will be the 'wise and selective' part.
I'm going to surprise you here: Sell price is bound to the craft cost, regardless of supply and demand. Craft cost includes investment costs.
You're still using the same materials you gathered &/or upgraded, just now the item level of that gear has grown significantly to 560-570, and I suspect the prices people ask will also be more.
1. I've explained that already, it's not the same materials, need the high quality version.
2. What relevance the IL has, if it's the old result, it will be the fail product, expansive but market flooded, because most will fail. Literally most will fail because of the focus and success chance rolls.
3. The gap between horde of people burning their AD away into regular results and those who can do +1 is in the number of artisans per char (among other factors, like recruitment costs).
4. That little little difference in stats, of lets say 5% success, is multiplied by the entire chain, you failed once, either on the success or to lesser extent focus and you are not happy. That not happy propagates into final price.
And at the prices Master Crafters sell their items for, they if anyone isn't likely going to have much problems, using a small portion of those diamonds to buy larger stacks of Platinum Gold Plates or several others than now likely stack 99x or higher...
Please do tell, what will be the profit margin and the sell prices of MW items that you talk about. And what will be the price for a stack of gold plates when gold will be a currency and not paper weight ?
Looks to me that you do not have MW unlocked, never checked the actual profit margins for the items, the estimated value with the various tools, artisans, and just look at as big price = endless profit..
You couldn't enter the MW over some 8%, so now you are saying that increasing the costs exponentially (slot RNG block will increase the time/cost of getting the right Artisan or force multiple chars with masterworks) is a good thing?!
At the end, I have multiple chars with gond and MW, and tens of chars with 9 slots and multiple professions, but the question, if my craft cost is 20mil per item (hypothetical), will you be able to buy the results ?
Bottom line, I want to know by what you judge that the reduction of slots is good without knowing the price of recruitment packs, the total craft cost, or other factors or probably even without having MW unlocked at first step. I just can't understand that. Or how did you estimate the product costs, and profit margins, and gold value, and predicted the Gold plate affordability.
Sorry, perhaps I'm just too slow, but I can't see it.
> @"kythelion#3210" said: > Thanks so if an grandmaster whatever is worth more to me as fodder for the coffer than points in the new crafting system better donate it soon. I will have another look but I only made stronghold stuff and the replacement for that looks pretty dire so I may just dump all assets in the coffer and have done with it. > > > Unless they change something, you can still donate them even after the mod goes live. The vouchers are still donatable just as the people they replaced were.
Yes but the real question is one of rate of exchange. I have looked through the posts and can not find anything useful about it. There is a post listing current exchange values i.e. 20,000 new credits for an epic crafter and speculating that this looked low and should be 32,000. Asterdahl undertook to look into it. These values are based on a snapshot of AH values. The coffer does not have variable value. An epic crafter is worth 12,500 donated as Labor in the coffer. The key about waiting or not waiting is whether the voucher for 20,000 or whatever in new credits yields in the coffer. Is it still 12,500? Has anyone tried this?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I SAID: "I'm not saying I don't agree with 'some' if not several of the very things your saying. Something about me 'most' don't realize: I like playing devil's advocate"
YOU REPLIED: "Repeatedly saying "I like" (nor "I hate") doesn't bring anything new to the table. Have you calculated the costs involved? What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?"
MY REPLY: Completely unfounded/unfair.
Because I actually one of the few people who often offers several specific examples & many suggestions on how things could/might be away to help address concerns. You're just narrow focused in on one statement, where I simply stated I agree with at least 'some' things your saying, and instead you use it to slap my face with it, and then later twist or implying I'm saying things I'm not. I'm very clear with how or why I feel how I do. Somethings those positions agree with a point you make, perhaps others times they do not, but I'm always at least very respectful of you. I don't start throwing labels, or try to twist things you've said. Simply because you're UPSET or quite don't like how DEVs have chosen to change something. You ignore all the benefit of the new system, and instead focus only on the negatives, cause the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.
What twist and what slap? I was very clear in my points. It is not the devs change that bothers me, is the repeated claims that a change is good, yet without any basis to the claim.
Worse, claims like little costs, or capable to craft, or what not, which do not hold to reality. As I've said in the previous post, it is clear you are not aware of the actual numbers, or costs involved. I have no clue why you try to convince me that I can do this and that, when others and I checked the exact numbers and have the unlocks to do so.
I'm saying that regardless of anything else, reducing the number of slots increase the costs significantly, this is not NW issue, this is how basic probability works when you want the red ball from a bag, but each time you get a blue one, you must put it back instead of keeping it out of the bag. Yet you respond with "little increase" How ?!?!!? The total craft without very specific artisans increases significantly due to the much lower percentage, and no return on fails, and you talk about 'little increase' How ??
I can live with increases in costs, or high entry point, it will be my decision to pay or not to pay. But these posts, reducing peoples concerns addressed to the devs in a feedback thread, into "I trust the devs" and "lets hope" and "I believe it's great" without any basis... That is something I don't care for.
What about the benefits from the new higher level gear. It used to sell for 2-5m+ a single piece. 5m Diamonds is almost 50.00 worth of ZEN for a single item. That was when most was Gear &/or Items was 480-510 Item level. Now that it's 560-570 do you think it's going to be worth less, or do you think Master Crafter's are going to try and charge even more for it?
Item level is relative, the number is irrelevant, the only market question is is it BiS or not, and if not, how close it is.
Cause I think it's likely the later of the two! And at the prices Master Crafters sell their items, they if anyone isn't likely going to have Gold problems, using just a small portion of those diamonds to buy larger stacks of Platinum Gold Plates 99x off or others off the AH...
Again, prices tied to craft cost and investment. I've already replied to the Gold Bawls several times, it's a fallacy, only relevant thing is AD:gold ratio, and it will spike depending on the gold burns. Your lovely 99 Gold plates can cost more than the MW item next mod (hypothetical)
Now perhaps if you have Patience you'll wait till your Workshop 4 is fully upgraded, and some Epic Artisans will apply to your workshop for Free! Or you can try your luck earlier opening Professional Artisan Recruitment but your right when you said earlier it's a chance at Epic with Workshop 3, though the chance seems to increase at Workshop 4. But Patience isn't a trait I'd likely think is something Master Crafters have in abundance - because they all want to Capitalize to make the absolute most Diamonds they can before others do...
I've already replied to exactly this. Which is completely false. Patience has nothing to do with it, patience = MW not BiS = Worthless.
I also being very respectful of you even though you seem to take your frustrations out on me. Often there is rarely a reply where I don't offer 1, 2 or 3 possible solutions to assist things.
I'm sure that that a suggestion to move alliance or guild to a person who brings concerns of the SH crates in a professions feedback thread is extremely relevant. Or claiming things without basis or checking.
This downplay of peoples posts is akin of trolling. ofc you are free to agree or disagree, or provide your opinion, but if your opinion is not based on anything substantial or actual checks, then don't be surprised to be called on it or provided a counter opinion.
This is great that you try to help, really, but if you didn't notice this is a feedback thread, with a clear structure, red for bugs, cyan for feedback, and some opinion in-between. I understand that it is hard to believe, but please give me and others the benefit of the doubt that we can articulate our concerns with a good understanding of how things work, or we will ask if needed. Ofc sometimes correction and information that people missed is welcome, but I'm not sure why you assume everyone is an idiot and missed the trivial things, or explaining MW costs to someone who has MW unlocked, or guild alliances.. I have no clue where the assumptions come from, for reference, as a proud despot of an sh20 guild and a half, I wonder when gold will start to be scarce, why would I donate thousands of it to another guild when I need it to craft or can trade for umops? I don't see that happens easily.
I've done it with Gold earnings suggesting several ways that could be handled, in response to another girl concerned about Crates, who then tried putting words in my mouth or implying things I hadn't, I restated exactly what I said which was only that they were reconsidering the rewards offered & then even offered several other points they could also consider.
Great, but your baseless claims of "little costs" etc.. as a response to my posts do not help me in any way, shape or form. You think I'm wrong, no problem, prove me wrong, as I've asked multiple times, I still don't know how you quantified your 'little' increase in costs. Lets talk numbers, lets see checks, or at least something and I'll be more than happy to revise my concerns if proven wrong. But until then, lets leave the replies to things that can't be answered except in "I hope" and "I trust" to the actual devs, or someone who checked and can provide an actual objective answer/information.
@strathkin keeps saying you can craft significantly improved items. I've not the HD space for a full install of preview.
Can anyone show two images of a 'significantly improved' item side by side for comparison? Also please point out whether these are items that require Masterwork, or Forgehammers, or some other multi-million AD requirement item. Because a great many crafters get by with their Epic crafters and Epic tools and don't actually have Forgehammers, legendary tools and Masterwork guilds.
Myself, I found that almost nothing in the current crafting system was actually worth crafting - armor, weapons etc. are all beat by easily available items. (Note: this is level 25, normal crafting, not Masterwork)
I use crafting (as many do) for the Stronghold crates, and for the occasional jewelry piece - which is one of the few things I can craft that I actually use (sadly they are Bind on Pickup so every person who wants one has to reach 25 Jewelcraft).
Thus, if they have 'significantly improved' versions of junk that I wouldn't craft for my dog, it's not so great. If they have 'significantly improved' masterwork items, or items that need a Forgehammer/Legendary tools, that is of some benefit - but not to the thousands of crafters who don't craft at that level.
I am just trying to quantify any potential benefits of the new system. So far, from what I am reading, (for me at least) almost everything about the new system (other than 'looks pretty') is a downside (by which I mean, a complete and utter ripoff of everything I put into crafting in the past 3 years).
So if there is a significant benefit from some new items, it would help - depending on the level of 'significant' I guess.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So if there is a significant benefit from some new items, it would help - depending on the level of 'significant' I guess.
There are several separate things, some regular stuff, like:
(taken from discord, don't know whom to credit)
This can be a nice companion gear.
Each craft result now has a regular version and a +1 one, at the complex tasks (MW) the +1 is much more costly to craft. The difference is few stats (less than 10%)
MW weapons will be BiS, yet for proportion the new 'campaign' of mod15 will provide 600IL gear.
But as I've also said the reward's have also greatly expanded, crafted gear suddenly is now all 560-570 item level, and you don't think Master Crafter's are going TRY to capitalize? They used to charge 4-7m+ diamonds early on, then it moved towards 2-5m diamonds after a few months. Yet even cheaper items were 50.00 - 100.00 worth of Diamonds if purchased with ZEN.
So do you think that is reasonable?
I'm not going to twist/manipulate your words or incorrectly quote so it changes the whole context of what was said. I'm trying to be mostly respectful how I treat you, and I don't think what your doing is even intentional. I just think your seeing something and replying to the first thought. I also think you're a little upset with the Artisan Limit being reduced from 32 to 25/26? Still both @winzardwinter and myself both have said we're happy with 25/26 being the upper limit.
But your not taking many things I've said into the full context, or why it was even stated or offered up to you or others. But I do see you 'above' now focusing on a few of the greatly expanded rewards your existing level of crafting now offers. And will the Stronghold Update MOD coming in 16/17/18 see expanded tiers of Mastercraft? Who knows...
Where you said, "I'm sure that that a suggestion to move alliance or guild to a person who brings concerns of the SH crates in a professions feedback thread is extremely relevant. Or claiming things without basis or checking."
I only suggested to consider joining an Alliance, if that was something that had not really been explored, &/or the possibly of consider joining one with a few some more Senior Guilds. It wasn't an ultimatum just an opportunity to consider. I know some senior alliances that would love a smaller guild, just to give members somewhere to donate vouchers to an alliance coffer! It does not mean anyone has to change alliances, or that they even need to join one if they are in a guild that is not in an alliance! Sometimes there are even Senior Guilds looking for a new Home. It just means to be Vigilant and always looking for different opportunities where or however they may present themselves. I wish people would stop reading to reply rather than reading to understand the context in which things are said!
"What twist and what slap? I was very clear in my points. It is not the devs change that bothers me, is the repeated claims that a change is good, yet without any basis to the claim."
The DEVs stated the 32 limit was an upper earlier threshold for debugging.
First your Ignoring references I then made to @ilithyn (Vulcan/Elf avatar) regarding Crates. In fact the 1 or 2 replies I tried on several occasions to calm 'him' the avatar is the Female not the Player. Why? Because he is an avid player in STO as well. Now realize the reason for trying to urge calm or cooler heads. My goodness we just saw Crates introduced, even though we've heard they'd be coming for some time, they still likely need several adjustments made to them. I acknowledged a DEV stated they were still considering revisions. Does that mean they will adjust them who knows? So I say let them read the feedback but also give them some time to reconsider or revise the Crates value. I also don't like over quoting people, especially if twisting the context of what they said in a fashion they never intended!
We've already seen them make several improvements to Tools, reducing the Proficiency & Focus required at several Mastercraft Items for Recipes at different tiers. That doesn't also mean they after all those they still won't consider a few minor tweaks as time goes on as well.
Similar for the Crates they may need to make a few adjustments still, or if nobody uses them in a month or two I'm sure they will take notice. So just because we see what Crates are offering now, it's only the first time we've seen them and they are likely changes &/or revisions still coming.
Give DEVs time to introduce then make changes, just because we first see something does not mean that is how it will be at launch! I do however think the 26/25 Artisan limit will likely remain.
I just think your reading too much cause with a negative vibe - because you started down this path - when I replied to @winzardwinter and supported his view that he was happy with 25 Artisan's. When I also added that I likely agreed with that because 32 was perhaps just a little too'o generous just as the DEVs also stated. I'd encourage you to re-read what the Winzard wrote which I agree with.
You say: "Great, but your baseless claims of "little costs" etc.. as a response to my posts do not help me in any way, shape or form. You think I'm wrong, no problem, prove me wrong, as I've asked multiple times..."
My goodness realize. I was talking about Gold. I never remember evening making a claim of 'little costs' so I don't even know what your referring to when you even say that! As for Gold costs there are a multitude of ways I've suggested they can improve Gold. I've stated a 70 (Rare) Adamantine Gear at 0% Commission costs 72 Silver to produce. The Merchants in Protector's Enclave only offer you 34 Silver. At 0% commission that's a 2.19x loss you likely won't even make Silver at -25% or -50% Commission. I was talking about they need to either: (i) increase the price the Merchant offers for 70 (Rare) Crafted Gear to perhaps 90+ Silver or more for High Quality Gear; (ii) reduce the cost to produce some of the gear for various recipes. Or perhaps a Hybrid of both. Those are however two of several examples I was trying to state of the countless others things DEVs could do. Aside from increasing the stacks of Platinum Gold Plates which are now 99x or possibly introducing new items that are potentially even worth more Silver &/or Gold from dropping. But I wasn't trying to get back into that whole debate, I was just trying to say I do offer examples for how to fix &/or improve thing and you'd see several of them if you'd go back and look for them.
Your twisting (perhaps not intentional) everything as your reading to reply, rather than reading to understand the context in which it was said, or quoting something incorrectly so the context is completely changed to which many are then agreeing, liking, or then finding awesomeness in your replies.
"So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that"
So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that - they also significantly improved the Gear! And you don't require doing anything to even start crafting it if you're already into Mastercraft V.
Yet you then later claim to have said "I've copied it word for word as you've said:
"What "wise and selective"?
You are mixing things without any relation to how things work. I can craft MW without upgrading anything, and with the first common artisan I get. How much AD I'll loose on that endeavor will be the 'wise and selective' part.
I'm going to surprise you here: Sell price is bound to the craft cost, regardless of supply and demand. Craft cost includes investment costs."
You admit you can craft MW without upgrading a anything! Yet you don't seem at least until recently grateful for the new gear your now seem to be able to craft? Where above your talking to someone entirely different about some of the gear being able to craft not only for yourself but also for your companions!
So I've seen you state it was "75% success and likely now 60%" realizes I'm paraphrasing and shortening, I have excellent memory.
So I admit it's going to see a few more failures. Yet the Gear you're also going to produce, without having to advance any levels of new Mastercraft, has also significantly increased. Which is why I'm ending with where I began, and you don't think Master Crafter's are not going to try and Capitalize on that? Is the new gear going to sell for 5-10m Diamonds each or 100.00 - 200.00 worth of ZEN? Sure the Omin IOU Gear is 600 Item Level but also realize you require doing the Dungeon on Extreme Difficulty. So that requires your entire party scaling their item level down to almost the Dungeon's most minimal levels! So you're going to want some of the best gear before they scale it down. Oh and BTW if any party member dies... …you get to all get to start completely from the beginning if any member dies!
So while the reward is even greater for Omin IOU 600 gear, there the risks are extremely difficult! Every player in the party has to know their role and know it well, not to mention ensuring they properly maximize, how each other works together to over come each and every challenge.
So all I ask is please try to take everything in the context in which it was said. Sadly it has taken far too long to just try to reply to this. And hopefully as I've posted and retried to re-edited so it done right I haven't had it recopied and replied to several other times.
So I'm not going to continue to REPLY to each and every comment. But the vast majority if not almost everything has been completely taken out of context to which it was originally stated. I stand behind everything I've already said!
Regardless if you agree or disagree.
Post edited by strathkin on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited October 2018
I've quoted every paragraph I've responded too, read again.
You really didn't test a thing. lets just start simple, what is the MW +1 success chance with your suggestion of using only the 3 Epic Artisans?
Yet the Gear you're also going to produce, without having to advance any levels of new Mastercraft, has also significantly increased. Which is why I'm ending with where I began, and you don't think Master Crafter's are not going to try and Capitalize on that? Is the new gear going to sell for 5-10m Diamonds each or 100.00 - 200.00 worth of ZEN?
I only need to unlock MW on 3-4 new chars and buy artisans for millions of AD for them (Not saying it's bad or good, only that the claim that there is no additional cost, is false). What will be my +1 success chance if I will not do this ? What conditions need to apply to get that 60% something chance I've wrote for overall success (not even +1) ? And how is selling for 5mil worth it if the combined craft cost is higher?
But Patience isn't a trait I'd likely think is something Master Crafters have in abundance
This right there. It shows you don't know about MW AT ALL. I have several MasterCrafters friends, and one that was a heavy seller. It has to be one of the most patient players to go through all the MW process. And I'm not talking about getting into MW now, as it's hundred times easier with all the SH vendors. I'm talking getting through all the MW when it began, and costs dozens and dozens of millions. You don't seem to even evaluate the amount of time to complete the MW, and to fully optimize it. You don't seem to even evaluate the amount of GM needed, in the millions to finish it. Or in the dozen millions AD if you don't want to farm. And to fully optimize it, run content to get GM non-stop on dozens of characters, buy hundreds of maps, and spend the entiere days of the double prof to run them. You have absolutely no idea of what it takes to be a good MW, so don't say that patience is not one of their quality as you only embarrass yourself.
Yet similar to @winzardwinter 6-9 months ago I also asked Master Crafters on the ARC forums: Should the Mastercraft I tool (common) that on Live today currently giving 0% Quality, be expanded to 8% similar to all Well-Worn tools sold at the Professional Vendor? That answer was not only a stark no, I even had 'a few' Master Crafter's attack me cause they didn't want Mastercraft easier to get intoMastercraft II.
Eh if that's a reference to your thread, I was one of those who "attacked" you. But don't try to play the victim here, you exposed your arguments to this change, they were all debunked easily because they had no concrete value. Please.
You keep talking about the fact that "Eh, yes MW costs a little more now (lol at "a little"), but eh, MW gear is now better so why do you complain?". I'll tell you why: - Do you think people will invest as much as on live creating MW stuff, when they go down from 95% potential to ~65% without any refund on fail? - Do you really think they will, just because the gear is updated? - As micky said earlier, the cost of the gear on AH is directly tied to the cost of crafting. This HUGE loss of 30% chance of success combined with the cost of new high-quality materials, combined with the fact you don't have refunds on fail anymore, how do you think that will affect the price of the MW gear on AH? - If it realistically costs 20M for a single weapon, or even a set of both mainhand and offhand, who do you think is gonna pay for them?
It's very simple actually. As the prices will absolutely skyrocket for the several reasons cited before, no one will be able to or even want to buy them. Devs already said new weapon set is coming on M16. So why would people bother with a 20M weapon set, when everyone can crush all the content with the current primal ones?
People that have this amount of money 1) already own these weapons from long ago 2) can craft them so they can have it before M15 3) bought them before M15 for like 3-4M the set, not bothering with the future +1 version (my case).
Why even do MW if the costs are too important for standard people to buy them, and they can wait until M16?
> So having read even more of these it is clear that this system is royally going to screw over guilds that aren't mega sized. Most of the crafters in my Alliance, me included, will not have the time or frankly inclination given how complicated and illogical this system appears to be, to make the same amount of stuff for the guild coffers that we do now. And given that there seems to be little to no increase in the value of the items created for donation that's going to mean that progress is going to grind pretty much to a halt very, very quickly.
>
> But I assume that is written off as an unfortunate consequence and the losses of those guilds and likely their players too as an acceptable loss to the game.
>
> No I think the new crafting system will be an improvement over what we had. It may likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold to craft a few items, so hopefully we'll be given ways to make it up. They likely need to still finally TWEAK a few things, prior to launch or possibly slightly afterward. Several have commented a bit on the 'gold' topic above which has more than a few concerned. I also offered up some suggestions I'd like to see around that.
>
> Still most of the Gear &/or Items you'll be able to craft will be significantly improved.
>
> And you'll still be able to craft a few Crates to donate to the Stronghold Coffer's! While others 'as the person above' identified, will be able to donate materials directly to the coffer. It makes no difference being in a smaller or large guild. Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
>
> One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!
>
> Here's the thing though. Right now you go in the game, pick up the crates you've made and then set up production of new ones, alternately you need to make one (1) kind of items you need for the crates such as vitriol if alchemy. Simple.
> This new version demands that you jump through 20834637121 hoops to even get even the stuff you need to make the bloody crates and then make the crates. That's waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming than what we have now. Stop trying to pretend it isn't.
> And from what I've seen of the values of these crates, the increase are in no way comparable with the much longer time and the far more complicated process needed to even make them. I suppose I can donate gold directly which might be more cost efficient, but if you're going to argue with me about donating AD directly I'm going to laugh in your face mate.
> As for everything else? Same HAMSTER. Yes I can make stuff such as items and donate them, but it is still waaaaaay more complicated and time consuming to do so. (See above.)
>
> And quit telling me to remain optimistic, there's nothing in this to be optimistic about. The devs involved in this have shown from the start that they're valuing only one type of players and that type clearly isn't the kind that I am. The ones who have a job to go to, who plays this game to be sociable with my guildies and actually play the damn game, and not to spend 2862682723 hours each week stuck micro managing a workshop simply to help out my guild to grow. My kind of player and my type of guild is going to get HAMSTER by this change, that much is clear not just from this thread but from the reports from those in my Alliance that's check this change out on preview intensively.
>
> And if you can't see how being in a smaller guild is affected by this I see no point in continuing this discussion as you clearly fail to grasp my point on a basic level.
>
> Unless they're making major changes to the value of these crates, then it won't be worth the bother it is to make them. And unless they're making significant changes to the SH system and it needs for donations if it wants to grow, small to medium sized guilds will get majorly screwed over unless they have a majority of obsessive crafters. Because those are the only kind of players this change is good for, the rest of us are HAMSTER over in more ways than one.
> You wanna cape for the devs for this screw up? You do you mate, not telling you not to, but kindly return the curtsy and stop lecturing me and everyone else how to view this.
Well said.
Where I previously said:
"Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!"
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
actual players, who need it to create campaign keys, and to unslot enchants.
Don't forget about the 5g per campaign voucher for donating to the guild, such as from Sharandar, Dread Ring, and IWD. I regularly make these and it has kept my characters at approximately the same amount of gold for months now. Granted, I'm not running any gold bonus items, like enchants, boons, or artifacts.
those campaign stuff is done when we have 2xcampaign resources events(get an alt armies and all is good and done faster
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Ffs, we're in a D&D inspired MMO, not a crafting sim. But that nuance seems to have escaped the devs. Or maybe they simply don't care about D&D players, but only sim players idk.
I want to know if to support it too, or not. Repeatedly saying "I like" (nor "I hate") doesn't bring anything new to the table. Have you calculated the costs involved?
What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?
Empty words and empty hopes of "it will be adjusted" do not convince me. Gold is not going to be a continued issue for everyone. It is going to be a continued issue for crafters, but let me ask you this, what was removed from skill nodes so many mods ago and why?
The answer will be RP, and the why will be botting.
I suspect that devs looked at the entire sum of gold in the economy, instead of the nominal gold gain and gold on crafters, when setting the costs.
Plenty of people have piles of gold, crafters will run out fast, really fast, devs, historically adjust to changes too slowly, that will create a demand and spike in value. Who will feel that void, for a task that is tedious to humans but easy to a script? Yes, you guess it right..
Except that gold can be directly traded and can't made "BtA", this will bring limits and repeated issues that harder to handle and will as byproduct limit the crafters more.
So we will be back to mod3 RP, when the market suppliers are the bots, laundered via actual human crafters, because there will be no practical choice, and the costs go onto the final buyers.
I don't suggest to remove the gold component, but setting the prices too high, will create an unwanted spike and instead generating additional value for the random gold drops, it will create 'black market' or on the other hand deter from doing the tasks that sink gold to begin with.
Who will do a stack of peridots if a single one costs crapton of stuff and 1 gold, when a stack of peridots goes for 4k AD, and 1 gold for 100 - 250 AD, this means crafting, even without the effort, materials, investment in the unlocks, time, and taken slots is higher cost than the result. Include all the costs mentioned and it's not even the same category of costs...
The prices need to start low, and adjusted, not start high and perhaps maybe someday looked into.
What perhaps? The mod is on preview? Did you see new gold items? or what not..
What "Who knows"? We know, we went to preview and checked... Do the same. Or ask for clarification, but when we ask for one, the reply of a player "perhaps it will be alright" doesn't contribute. Again, what is that "little but harder", quantify to me that little, combined with slot reductions to 26. What you mean by little ?
100mil AD? 200mil AD?
I think I'm on a the poor side of veteran players, and yet richer than you, and I look at a spreadsheet that tells me that that little becomes father and farther from affordable or more correctly - will return the investment, assuming I'm willing to do it, or worse sustain it until it does return.
I'm not for making MW and other things too available, yes it should have investment costs, but with claims of it's great and should be limited more, I want to see what it's based on, because I've missed the costs of the zen pack, and the % for daily recruitment and other factors that will allow me to form a based on facts opinion.
My educated guesses show the opposite. This is a nice theory, did you try it in practice?
1. What is the chance to get exactly the 2 artisans needed out of 3 attempts out of god knows how many options.
2. If you didn't notice, but to make +1 you may want +1 ingredients to get the focus bonus, that means doing the whole chain, but alas the MW chain is not limited to a single profession, that means that the other artisans need to come from somewhere, and produce +1 results with high chance, because +1 ingredients will be expansive, very very, expensive.
3. Counting the issue, what will be the investment in artisans, or repeated failure costs from using worse artisans, and as opposed to that what is the acceptable market price ? How many will be willing to buy a MW piece for 20mil AD? Will you buy one? Patience has nothing to do with it, it is only about return of investment, wait to long, and you get no buyers, because everyone who could afford the next best thing bought one, and the price can go only so low before it is not worth it.
The more you invest, the sooner you can enter the market, but the most you risk. Only in theory, did you check that "potential" ? Without using +1 materials? Please do share the overall chance. I have no idea what the process you describe here. The gold price and the added trade profits will be included in the end result. If today a MW ring costs half million, and tomorrow with exactly the same demand and production costs it will need additional 10 gold, and the gold goes for 10k per gold and takes 3 trades to convert from AD to gold, then the ring will go for at least 633k AD (assuming 10% loss/profit per conversion).
The mod is on preview, there is no unseen mechanisms of tiny dwarves mining gold, or 'have to trust' the powers to be, this is a feedback thread, and the feedback should be based on how the system works, and not false gods and false hopes.
Edit: Seeing by your account that you seem to have made it with the sole purpose of disagreeing with me and I strongly suspect you're a sock puppet, I'm not going to respond to your harassment any longer. Have fun caping for the devs.
I suspect they did exactly that, looking at how much gold there is in the game in general. Except that bots who pick up everything during random levelling, or pick every node, etc, may have thousands more gold than actual players, who need it to create campaign keys, and to unslot enchants.
10 gold for one attempt to a MW5 item, with ~65% chance of success without any refund on fail... people better buy their MW weapons now and not hope for having +1 versions for under 15M...
>
> The more I know and think over that rework it seems less funny.
Has this been tried on preview? I thought all your professions assets got turned into a points pot to spend on assets in the new system. Do you get a choice between turning them into points and donating them to the coffer? I had seen a recovery in AH prices but thought that was people looking to maximise their points total.
Either can then be traded for ASSET credit, to then exchange for MATERIAL credit, or Professional Labor Vouchers can also be donated directly to coffer for Labor. Also even if you trade your Professional Vouchers for Asset Credit, you can use to convert to material, and some can be donated directly to the coffer. I think the one DEV stated this was by design as the new system has no equivalent. Since Artisans can only be accepted or declined in the new system and can't be resold.
Hopefully however we'll continue seeing Professional Packs dropping from Lockboxes though?
Not sure I like removing 'some' common materials from 1-2 temp. merchants. But as long as options exist through other means, which does at least currently seem to be the case.
I think they still allow the Recruiter, &/or Gem Cutter to still be summoned or tended by the guild to work together. Their are no guild marks for doing so, but still that's something all guild members can do together to grow.
DEVs consider a few Stronghold Updates: Please & Thank You - Consider
Healthier Guilds = Healthier player base.
- Currently 'most' donate Influence, a few donate Gems, & was AD removed/nerfed?.
- Nice to add a Strongbox of Labour - rewarding Major Professional Vouchers that already exist?
- Nice to see an Improvement to Crates - especially given Gold Cost &/or Material crafting costs
- Nice to Improve a few Common Voucher's rebalanced: Some offer 1 Guild Mark - Others 25+?
- Be good to have Common Vouchers drop a little more: Maurader's, HE's, NPC's.
Perhaps some of those revisions however are being considered, cause I know there a upcoming Stronghold MOD? I know it's coming in the next year, yet don't know if it's Mod 16, 17, or 18. There have been hints &/or speculation it's coming... As for this comment above I empathize with you.Attempting to build a guild is no small feat by any imagination! I'm actually impressed and very admiring seeing a new guilds coming out of the woodwork. More Leadership is often required growing new guilds, and also has the best hopes of maintaining an active & engaged Roster. Sometimes it requires a little creativity, like monthly contest based on contributions, some guilds try to ask members try to run a minimal Influence Donation, others coordinate Marauder's runs, or Alliance Dragon Flights. I've seen Guild Leaders offer up Strongbox Key's keys to members since it helps them grow the guild, buy what options are available to everyone will vary from Leader to Leader. I've seen others guilds be successful simply be getting into an Alliance if they weren't in one. I've also seen change alliances and be do a little better. Sometimes it not even a change of Alliance but welcome 1-2 new Guilds.
Sometimes a more senior level guilds can offer a bit more help junior guilds. Other times it's because their a little more active and encourage the player base to get more involved. I can't say what will work for you or what options you've even looked into. Encouraging or working together to run daily/weekly or various guilds quests as a guild &/or alliance as often the carrot's work best. Also encourage members during the Siege Event to get the quest from the Master of Coin.
I'm not pretending nothing! Regardless if 7 people Agreed with you, or the 1 who Liked it, or even the 1 who found it Awesome!
I never said 'anything' to even IMPLY or even suggest it was 'not' a lot more complicated. The 'only' thing I said if you 'read' it above was that:
- It will likely cost a little, if not a lot more gold; so hopefully we given new ways to make up for it.
- They still need &/or have acknowledge: revisions to crates &/or materials donated to coffer & rewards offered.
- Most Gear &/or Items you craft will be significantly improved - rewards from crates should be no different.
Note when I say rewards should be improved, I mean not only what they offer to the Guild, but also the guild marks you receive.I don't like it, when others put worth in my mouth, I haven't in fact said or even implied! The only thing I clearly expressed which should have been obvious, was they acknowledged they likely still need to 'tweak' a few aspects, at least around what is required material for crates, not to mention the rewards some of them offer.
DEVs please take note: 1st: Introduce tiers of crates; 2nd: Simply hoops; 3rd: Improve the Rewards!
We just recently saw Crates even introduced, so it's likely just the first pass and we've have seen other things revised or improved, so hopefully crates have more tiers offered some with far less hoops, and several see far improved gain's for the guild &/or player!
Especially if it's now also costing you Gold just to create them in addition to Materials!
Still I think some need to give them a week or two to possibly revise / update it. I agree they need to improve the rewards in Crates, have hinted they may still yet be making some changes to them.
Still I try to remain hopeful.
The DEVs clearly explained they do not want everybody have 1 artisan in all 4 ranges, across all 8 professions! So people can pick & choose the ideal situation each and every time. I thought @winzardwinter has clearly articulated that exact point! Yet seems you've mostly taken aim at me... ...despite sharing a least some of your concerns.
Yet similar to @winzardwinter 6-9 months ago I also asked Master Crafters on the ARC forums: Should the Mastercraft I tool (common) that on Live today currently giving 0% Quality, be expanded to 8% similar to all Well-Worn tools sold at the Professional Vendor? That answer was not only a stark no, I even had 'a few' Master Crafter's attack me cause they didn't want Mastercraft easier to get into Mastercraft II. Realize Mastercraft III-V is currently 3x easier on LIVE today as you now had 4x purple tools, not just 3x, and that's if you don't even have the Gond tool. So realize Master Crafter's themselves even stated they wanted it even harder to get into. Today it is 75% with Gond. I was just sad Master Crafters said they wanted it harder to get into. Now it seems Cryptic did just that.
So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that - they also significantly improved the Gear! And you don't require doing anything to even start crafting it if you're already into Mastercraft V. I understand what was 75% is now potentially 60%.
If your 'wise' [I'm not suggesting your not - you've likely already tested which profession - and buy one only at a time based on Proficiency &/or Focus before opening another] and likely selective in choosing your 3 Epic Artisan's you obtain from the Retainer so you'll likely find 1/2 in at least 1 if not 2 professions and be able to craft right away. Even if your only upgraded to Workshop 3 - sure you don't even need that or Workshop 2. Those just allow you take take delivery of more items & also have more Artisans. You're still using the same materials you gathered &/or upgraded, just now the item level of that gear has grown significantly to 560-570, and I suspect the prices people ask will also be more [BiS]. Still some Master Crafters will likely want the best Artisan's as quickly as possible - but that is a choice you don't have to make - yet most will likely not be able to resist, as they want it right away to maximize what they ask. If some people are willing to pay or fork over ZEN is another story entirely...
I SAID:
"I'm not saying I don't agree with 'some' if not several of the very things your saying. Something about me 'most' don't realize: I like playing devil's advocate" But I'm also not dishonest with my opinions either.
YOU REPLIED:
"Repeatedly saying "I like" (nor "I hate") doesn't bring anything new to the table. Have you calculated the costs involved?
What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?"
MY REPLY:
Completely unfounded/unfair.
Because I actually one of the few people who often offers several specific examples & many suggestions on how things could/might be away to help address concerns. Often there is rarely a reply where I don't offer 1, 2 or 3 possible solutions. I've done it with Gold earnings suggesting several ways that could be handled. In response to another girl concerned about Crates, I had to again restated exactly what I said, as she implied things I wasn't, I only said that they were reconsidering rewards offered, as we just saw the first introduction of crates, and even offered several ways they may address it. Possibly to reintroduce more tiers of crates, with far less hoops, gold or material required. DEVs acknowledge they reconsidering or adjusting crates still. So lets give them time to make the adjustments before people get upset too early. I even added with the Stronghold update coming in Mod 16/17/18: They may add/revise Strongboxes perhaps a Strongbox of Labor including Professional/Major Labor Vouchers, or allow more Common Vouchers to drop, or even more Daily quests for Green Vouchers, were some but not all the examples I provided. Much earlier in this thread I also agreed with another guy who thought Artisans needed more than +400. I in fact also agreed with him, just suggested perhaps that was the wrong approach, that they may likely need to reconsider what some tools provide. In fact within a week or so we saw several changes made to several tools. Some might like a more Proficiency & Focus on more tools. But to the point the Winzard made if everybody could do it easily and consistently produce highly valuable items it be average crafting.
You're just focused in on one statement, where I simply stated I agree with at least 'some' things your saying, and instead you use it to slap my face with it. I'm also not twisting or putting words in your mouth, simply because your upset with how DEVs have changed things. You ignore all the benefit of the new system, and instead focus only on the negatives, as the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. I try to take the good with the bad. Yet still I'm concerned about gold and how that may work - but try to remain positive - as DEVs have stated they will closely monitor it.
But Patience isn't a trait I'd likely think is something Master Crafters have in abundance - because they all want to Capitalize to make the absolute most Diamonds they can before others do... ...but that's not how I play or try to get 'enjoyment' from the game. I do have Patience & also try to remain far more 'hopeful' than most.
I'll just put on my Negativity Shades to block out tox·ic·i·ty and lets in the light!
Thank You Corellon!
For requesting Labelas Enoreth in the Knowledge Domain with Gond: The gift to my Evles of tox·ic·i·ty shades is
Do you grasp the difference between making the entry point of 10mil AD cheaper, and lets say doubling an entry point or more?
Where you took the "slightly higher" part from ? Please, I will really would like to understand that calculation. I don't understand, have you actually tried things on preview or you keep responding by your interpretation of the notes?
I'll try it with colors, I will need to spend millions on artisans and the whole chain of materials before crafting even a roll of toilet paper
Or wait about 2-3 mods until by some chance the artisans come to me themselves, or the last and 'best' option, craft with pleb artisans and craft at a loss vs someone who bought the better artisans.
Do you understand the chances involved there now? This is not 75%-95% with partial return on materials, and some nice added chance for some nice +1. It is fail = loose the whole chain. What "wise and selective"?
You are mixing things without any relation to how things work. I can craft MW without upgrading anything, and with the first common artisan I get. How much AD I'll loose on that endeavor will be the 'wise and selective' part.
I'm going to surprise you here: Sell price is bound to the craft cost, regardless of supply and demand.
Craft cost includes investment costs. 1. I've explained that already, it's not the same materials, need the high quality version.
2. What relevance the IL has, if it's the old result, it will be the fail product, expansive but market flooded, because most will fail. Literally most will fail because of the focus and success chance rolls.
3. The gap between horde of people burning their AD away into regular results and those who can do +1 is in the number of artisans per char (among other factors, like recruitment costs).
4. That little little difference in stats, of lets say 5% success, is multiplied by the entire chain, you failed once, either on the success or to lesser extent focus and you are not happy. That not happy propagates into final price.
Please do tell, what will be the profit margin and the sell prices of MW items that you talk about. And what will be the price for a stack of gold plates when gold will be a currency and not paper weight ?
Looks to me that you do not have MW unlocked, never checked the actual profit margins for the items, the estimated value with the various tools, artisans, and just look at as big price = endless profit..
You couldn't enter the MW over some 8%, so now you are saying that increasing the costs exponentially (slot RNG block will increase the time/cost of getting the right Artisan or force multiple chars with masterworks) is a good thing?!
At the end, I have multiple chars with gond and MW, and tens of chars with 9 slots and multiple professions, but the question, if my craft cost is 20mil per item (hypothetical), will you be able to buy the results ?
Bottom line, I want to know by what you judge that the reduction of slots is good without knowing the price of recruitment packs, the total craft cost, or other factors or probably even without having MW unlocked at first step. I just can't understand that.
Or how did you estimate the product costs, and profit margins, and gold value, and predicted the Gold plate affordability.
Sorry, perhaps I'm just too slow, but I can't see it.
> Thanks so if an grandmaster whatever is worth more to me as fodder for the coffer than points in the new crafting system better donate it soon. I will have another look but I only made stronghold stuff and the replacement for that looks pretty dire so I may just dump all assets in the coffer and have done with it.
>
>
> Unless they change something, you can still donate them even after the mod goes live. The vouchers are still donatable just as the people they replaced were.
Yes but the real question is one of rate of exchange. I have looked through the posts and can not find anything useful about it. There is a post listing current exchange values i.e. 20,000 new credits for an epic crafter and speculating that this looked low and should be 32,000. Asterdahl undertook to look into it. These values are based on a snapshot of AH values. The coffer does not have variable value. An epic crafter is worth 12,500 donated as Labor in the coffer. The key about waiting or not waiting is whether the voucher for 20,000 or whatever in new credits yields in the coffer. Is it still 12,500? Has anyone tried this?
Worse, claims like little costs, or capable to craft, or what not, which do not hold to reality. As I've said in the previous post, it is clear you are not aware of the actual numbers, or costs involved. I have no clue why you try to convince me that I can do this and that, when others and I checked the exact numbers and have the unlocks to do so.
I'm saying that regardless of anything else, reducing the number of slots increase the costs significantly, this is not NW issue, this is how basic probability works when you want the red ball from a bag, but each time you get a blue one, you must put it back instead of keeping it out of the bag. Yet you respond with "little increase" How ?!?!!?
The total craft without very specific artisans increases significantly due to the much lower percentage, and no return on fails, and you talk about 'little increase' How ??
I can live with increases in costs, or high entry point, it will be my decision to pay or not to pay. But these posts, reducing peoples concerns addressed to the devs in a feedback thread, into "I trust the devs" and "lets hope" and "I believe it's great" without any basis... That is something I don't care for. Item level is relative, the number is irrelevant, the only market question is is it BiS or not, and if not, how close it is. Again, prices tied to craft cost and investment. I've already replied to the Gold Bawls several times, it's a fallacy, only relevant thing is AD:gold ratio, and it will spike depending on the gold burns. Your lovely 99 Gold plates can cost more than the MW item next mod (hypothetical) I've already replied to exactly this. Which is completely false. Patience has nothing to do with it, patience = MW not BiS = Worthless. Good for you, really, but please do not try to correct posts of people who address concerns to the devs with some premise of hopeful and what not. I'm sure that that a suggestion to move alliance or guild to a person who brings concerns of the SH crates in a professions feedback thread is extremely relevant. Or claiming things without basis or checking.
This downplay of peoples posts is akin of trolling. ofc you are free to agree or disagree, or provide your opinion, but if your opinion is not based on anything substantial or actual checks, then don't be surprised to be called on it or provided a counter opinion.
This is great that you try to help, really, but if you didn't notice this is a feedback thread, with a clear structure, red for bugs, cyan for feedback, and some opinion in-between. I understand that it is hard to believe, but please give me and others the benefit of the doubt that we can articulate our concerns with a good understanding of how things work, or we will ask if needed. Ofc sometimes correction and information that people missed is welcome, but I'm not sure why you assume everyone is an idiot and missed the trivial things, or explaining MW costs to someone who has MW unlocked, or guild alliances.. I have no clue where the assumptions come from, for reference, as a proud despot of an sh20 guild and a half, I wonder when gold will start to be scarce, why would I donate thousands of it to another guild when I need it to craft or can trade for umops? I don't see that happens easily. Great, but your baseless claims of "little costs" etc.. as a response to my posts do not help me in any way, shape or form. You think I'm wrong, no problem, prove me wrong, as I've asked multiple times, I still don't know how you quantified your 'little' increase in costs. Lets talk numbers, lets see checks, or at least something and I'll be more than happy to revise my concerns if proven wrong. But until then, lets leave the replies to things that can't be answered except in "I hope" and "I trust" to the actual devs, or someone who checked and can provide an actual objective answer/information.
Can anyone show two images of a 'significantly improved' item side by side for comparison? Also please point out whether these are items that require Masterwork, or Forgehammers, or some other multi-million AD requirement item. Because a great many crafters get by with their Epic crafters and Epic tools and don't actually have Forgehammers, legendary tools and Masterwork guilds.
Myself, I found that almost nothing in the current crafting system was actually worth crafting - armor, weapons etc. are all beat by easily available items. (Note: this is level 25, normal crafting, not Masterwork)
I use crafting (as many do) for the Stronghold crates, and for the occasional jewelry piece - which is one of the few things I can craft that I actually use (sadly they are Bind on Pickup so every person who wants one has to reach 25 Jewelcraft).
Thus, if they have 'significantly improved' versions of junk that I wouldn't craft for my dog, it's not so great. If they have 'significantly improved' masterwork items, or items that need a Forgehammer/Legendary tools, that is of some benefit - but not to the thousands of crafters who don't craft at that level.
I am just trying to quantify any potential benefits of the new system. So far, from what I am reading, (for me at least) almost everything about the new system (other than 'looks pretty') is a downside (by which I mean, a complete and utter ripoff of everything I put into crafting in the past 3 years).
So if there is a significant benefit from some new items, it would help - depending on the level of 'significant' I guess.
(taken from discord, don't know whom to credit)
This can be a nice companion gear.
Each craft result now has a regular version and a +1 one, at the complex tasks (MW) the +1 is much more costly to craft. The difference is few stats (less than 10%)
MW weapons will be BiS, yet for proportion the new 'campaign' of mod15 will provide 600IL gear.
This is some of the upgraded MW items:
I agree its NOT easier than it was BEFORE.
But as I've also said the reward's have also greatly expanded, crafted gear suddenly is now all 560-570 item level, and you don't think Master Crafter's are going TRY to capitalize? They used to charge 4-7m+ diamonds early on, then it moved towards 2-5m diamonds after a few months. Yet even cheaper items were 50.00 - 100.00 worth of Diamonds if purchased with ZEN.
So do you think that is reasonable?
I'm not going to twist/manipulate your words or incorrectly quote so it changes the whole context of what was said. I'm trying to be mostly respectful how I treat you, and I don't think what your doing is even intentional. I just think your seeing something and replying to the first thought. I also think you're a little upset with the Artisan Limit being reduced from 32 to 25/26? Still both @winzardwinter and myself both have said we're happy with 25/26 being the upper limit.
But your not taking many things I've said into the full context, or why it was even stated or offered up to you or others. But I do see you 'above' now focusing on a few of the greatly expanded rewards your existing level of crafting now offers. And will the Stronghold Update MOD coming in 16/17/18 see expanded tiers of Mastercraft? Who knows...
Where you said, "I'm sure that that a suggestion to move alliance or guild to a person who brings concerns of the SH crates in a professions feedback thread is extremely relevant. Or claiming things without basis or checking."
I only suggested to consider joining an Alliance, if that was something that had not really been explored, &/or the possibly of consider joining one with a few some more Senior Guilds. It wasn't an ultimatum just an opportunity to consider. I know some senior alliances that would love a smaller guild, just to give members somewhere to donate vouchers to an alliance coffer! It does not mean anyone has to change alliances, or that they even need to join one if they are in a guild that is not in an alliance! Sometimes there are even Senior Guilds looking for a new Home. It just means to be Vigilant and always looking for different opportunities where or however they may present themselves. I wish people would stop reading to reply rather than reading to understand the context in which things are said!
"What twist and what slap? I was very clear in my points. It is not the devs change that bothers me, is the repeated claims that a change is good, yet without any basis to the claim."
The DEVs stated the 32 limit was an upper earlier threshold for debugging.
First your Ignoring references I then made to @ilithyn (Vulcan/Elf avatar) regarding Crates. In fact the 1 or 2 replies I tried on several occasions to calm 'him' the avatar is the Female not the Player. Why? Because he is an avid player in STO as well. Now realize the reason for trying to urge calm or cooler heads. My goodness we just saw Crates introduced, even though we've heard they'd be coming for some time, they still likely need several adjustments made to them. I acknowledged a DEV stated they were still considering revisions. Does that mean they will adjust them who knows? So I say let them read the feedback but also give them some time to reconsider or revise the Crates value. I also don't like over quoting people, especially if twisting the context of what they said in a fashion they never intended!
We've already seen them make several improvements to Tools, reducing the Proficiency & Focus required at several Mastercraft Items for Recipes at different tiers. That doesn't also mean they after all those they still won't consider a few minor tweaks as time goes on as well.
Similar for the Crates they may need to make a few adjustments still, or if nobody uses them in a month or two I'm sure they will take notice. So just because we see what Crates are offering now, it's only the first time we've seen them and they are likely changes &/or revisions still coming.
Give DEVs time to introduce then make changes, just because we first see something does not mean that is how it will be at launch! I do however think the 26/25 Artisan limit will likely remain.
I just think your reading too much cause with a negative vibe - because you started down this path - when I replied to @winzardwinter and supported his view that he was happy with 25 Artisan's. When I also added that I likely agreed with that because 32 was perhaps just a little too'o generous just as the DEVs also stated. I'd encourage you to re-read what the Winzard wrote which I agree with.
You say: "Great, but your baseless claims of "little costs" etc.. as a response to my posts do not help me in any way, shape or form. You think I'm wrong, no problem, prove me wrong, as I've asked multiple times..."
My goodness realize. I was talking about Gold. I never remember evening making a claim of 'little costs' so I don't even know what your referring to when you even say that! As for Gold costs there are a multitude of ways I've suggested they can improve Gold. I've stated a 70 (Rare) Adamantine Gear at 0% Commission costs 72 Silver to produce. The Merchants in Protector's Enclave only offer you 34 Silver. At 0% commission that's a 2.19x loss you likely won't even make Silver at -25% or -50% Commission. I was talking about they need to either: (i) increase the price the Merchant offers for 70 (Rare) Crafted Gear to perhaps 90+ Silver or more for High Quality Gear; (ii) reduce the cost to produce some of the gear for various recipes. Or perhaps a Hybrid of both. Those are however two of several examples I was trying to state of the countless others things DEVs could do. Aside from increasing the stacks of Platinum Gold Plates which are now 99x or possibly introducing new items that are potentially even worth more Silver &/or Gold from dropping. But I wasn't trying to get back into that whole debate, I was just trying to say I do offer examples for how to fix &/or improve thing and you'd see several of them if you'd go back and look for them.
Your twisting (perhaps not intentional) everything as your reading to reply, rather than reading to understand the context in which it was said, or quoting something incorrectly so the context is completely changed to which many are then agreeing, liking, or then finding awesomeness in your replies.
"So my goodness You ain't going to have it both ways sure the risks are slightly higher - OK I get that" Yet you then later claim to have said "I've copied it word for word as you've said:
"What "wise and selective"?
You are mixing things without any relation to how things work. I can craft MW without upgrading anything, and with the first common artisan I get. How much AD I'll loose on that endeavor will be the 'wise and selective' part.
I'm going to surprise you here: Sell price is bound to the craft cost, regardless of supply and demand.
Craft cost includes investment costs."
You admit you can craft MW without upgrading a anything! Yet you don't seem at least until recently grateful for the new gear your now seem to be able to craft? Where above your talking to someone entirely different about some of the gear being able to craft not only for yourself but also for your companions!
So I've seen you state it was "75% success and likely now 60%" realizes I'm paraphrasing and shortening, I have excellent memory.
So I admit it's going to see a few more failures. Yet the Gear you're also going to produce, without having to advance any levels of new Mastercraft, has also significantly increased. Which is why I'm ending with where I began, and you don't think Master Crafter's are not going to try and Capitalize on that? Is the new gear going to sell for 5-10m Diamonds each or 100.00 - 200.00 worth of ZEN? Sure the Omin IOU Gear is 600 Item Level but also realize you require doing the Dungeon on Extreme Difficulty. So that requires your entire party scaling their item level down to almost the Dungeon's most minimal levels! So you're going to want some of the best gear before they scale it down. Oh and BTW if any party member dies... …you get to all get to start completely from the beginning if any member dies!
So while the reward is even greater for Omin IOU 600 gear, there the risks are extremely difficult! Every player in the party has to know their role and know it well, not to mention ensuring they properly maximize, how each other works together to over come each and every challenge.
So all I ask is please try to take everything in the context in which it was said. Sadly it has taken far too long to just try to reply to this. And hopefully as I've posted and retried to re-edited so it done right I haven't had it recopied and replied to several other times.
So I'm not going to continue to REPLY to each and every comment. But the vast majority if not almost everything has been completely taken out of context to which it was originally stated. I stand behind everything I've already said!
Regardless if you agree or disagree.
You really didn't test a thing. lets just start simple, what is the MW +1 success chance with your suggestion of using only the 3 Epic Artisans? I only need to unlock MW on 3-4 new chars and buy artisans for millions of AD for them (Not saying it's bad or good, only that the claim that there is no additional cost, is false).
What will be my +1 success chance if I will not do this ?
What conditions need to apply to get that 60% something chance I've wrote for overall success (not even +1) ?
And how is selling for 5mil worth it if the combined craft cost is higher?
So lets start with those simple questions.
You don't seem to even evaluate the amount of time to complete the MW, and to fully optimize it. You don't seem to even evaluate the amount of GM needed, in the millions to finish it. Or in the dozen millions AD if you don't want to farm. And to fully optimize it, run content to get GM non-stop on dozens of characters, buy hundreds of maps, and spend the entiere days of the double prof to run them. You have absolutely no idea of what it takes to be a good MW, so don't say that patience is not one of their quality as you only embarrass yourself. Eh if that's a reference to your thread, I was one of those who "attacked" you. But don't try to play the victim here, you exposed your arguments to this change, they were all debunked easily because they had no concrete value. Please.
You keep talking about the fact that "Eh, yes MW costs a little more now (lol at "a little"), but eh, MW gear is now better so why do you complain?".
I'll tell you why:
- Do you think people will invest as much as on live creating MW stuff, when they go down from 95% potential to ~65% without any refund on fail?
- Do you really think they will, just because the gear is updated?
- As micky said earlier, the cost of the gear on AH is directly tied to the cost of crafting. This HUGE loss of 30% chance of success combined with the cost of new high-quality materials, combined with the fact you don't have refunds on fail anymore, how do you think that will affect the price of the MW gear on AH?
- If it realistically costs 20M for a single weapon, or even a set of both mainhand and offhand, who do you think is gonna pay for them?
It's very simple actually. As the prices will absolutely skyrocket for the several reasons cited before, no one will be able to or even want to buy them. Devs already said new weapon set is coming on M16. So why would people bother with a 20M weapon set, when everyone can crush all the content with the current primal ones?
People that have this amount of money 1) already own these weapons from long ago 2) can craft them so they can have it before M15 3) bought them before M15 for like 3-4M the set, not bothering with the future +1 version (my case).
Why even do MW if the costs are too important for standard people to buy them, and they can wait until M16?
"Though I think that is 'one area' they are still having to tweak or make revisions to.
One DEV recently stated they were still considering changes to items available for Coffer donation or least in the value that they offered. So that is still likely one area we may yet see changes, if not prior to launch, then possibly not too long after wards. So try to remain hopeful!"