I just had a (*sarcasm alert) lovely experience in the Caverns of Karrundax...
One player wanted to run ahead, bypass as many mobs as possible and another player who said they had only been playing for "two weeks" wanted to fight their way through to the boss.
The player who wanted to run ahead told us to "STOP fighting everything" the other player simply responded "no" so the player who wanted to run through the dungeon stopped and simply told us they were going "AFK".
So we two remaining players fought our way to the first boss, dispatched it and we asked if they wanted to catch up or asked if they are quitting?
Their response was "Naaa, I'm just an a**", (believe it or not that was a direct quote) then told us we could have been "finished about 10-15 minutes ago" - except we'd only been running for about 5 minutes - probably less if you discount the time we stopped to try to get the 'offended player' to come with us.
Anyhow the two of us fought our way through the rest of the dungeon and arrived at the last boss gate and we told the 'offended player' he could catch up, we'd wait for him and asked why he thought he had to rush through the dungeon.
He told us he had "7 characters" to run and he still had "homework to do" (you can't make this stuff up).
When we told him it isn't JUST about the AD's for everyone, some of us want to have fun and actually run dungeons he told us then we should "queue private"...
The other player and I waited at the last boss gate just chatting but the 'offended player' hadn't moved from where he stopped so after about 8 minutes more (He Still Hadn't Moved) from arriving at "You must gather your party" boss gate we did kick him and two of us fought our way in, laid low the dragon and we parted ways.
Yes the whole thing took a little longer with only two people instead of three participating but it was done despite the 'offended player' thinking he was going to punish us by making us wait as the final boss gate.
First he complains because we were taking too much time fighting "trash mobs", then he goes AFK and waits around for about 10 minutes trying to tell us how we weren't doing it right... That was hilarious.
I will run to the best of my ability to keep up with a party who decides to run through a dungeon, but I won't automatically take the side of a dungeon runner over another party member and I certainly will not leave a party member behind just because they can't keep up.
Fortunately I'm finding there are quite a few other players out there who feel the same way.
If you want to take your time enjoy the scenery of Dungeon, you can always use private queue or regular queue. 97% players want to breeze through the dungeon quickly.
Once you get too many levels above the questing zone, the marks on quest givers won't even be visible anymore, and you will have to run around the map talking to every NPC in the hopes that they have more quests for you. So in conclusion I definitely understand your frustration.
Oh hey, I just saw this. There's actually a new option in the HUD to show quest markers for low-level quests! It got added a few weeks ago, and it resolves this problem nicely.
If you want to take your time enjoy the scenery of Dungeon, you can always use private queue or regular queue. 97% players want to breeze through the dungeon quickly.
The hard part though is the system is mixing people in their first run of a dungeon from the content in with speed-runners. The idea they are somehow bad for wanting to experience the dungeon their first time makes them bad or wrong is just ridiculous.
1
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,406Arc User
If you want to take your time enjoy the scenery of Dungeon, you can always use private queue or regular queue. 97% players want to breeze through the dungeon quickly.
The hard part though is the system is mixing people in their first run of a dungeon from the content in with speed-runners. The idea they are somehow bad for wanting to experience the dungeon their first time makes them bad or wrong is just ridiculous.
Yes, the "idea" was to give incentive to the veteran to "help" new comers. This obviously fails badly. However, those dungeon are meant for the new comers and the "veterans" are the "helpers". Asking new comer to yield to the "veterans" is just stupid.
One the other hand, dev created a situation for "veterans" to get AD. And, the "veterans" are flooding the LRQ. We all should know where the fingers should point to.
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4
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
If you want to take your time enjoy the scenery of Dungeon, you can always use private queue or regular queue. 97% players want to breeze through the dungeon quickly.
Then the speed runners should private queue. Except that now, this new Random Queue system completely ruins that experience.
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I maybe wrong, but a number of the current changes to the queue system appear to be based on attempts to manage player behaviour more than make un-played dungeons see more action.
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If you want to take your time enjoy the scenery of Dungeon, you can always use private queue or regular queue. 97% players want to breeze through the dungeon quickly.
The hard part though is the system is mixing people in their first run of a dungeon from the content in with speed-runners. The idea they are somehow bad for wanting to experience the dungeon their first time makes them bad or wrong is just ridiculous.
Now, replace Cloak Tower with Tong, MC, FBI, MSP, CN or Etos, See how popular you be, for wanting to experience the dungeon scenery by slowing other party members. Maybe, open every node kit, exploring every point of the map, killing the mobs in the extra path with traps plus competing Adventurers(MC), killing every mob between the Turtle and Drupf(FBI) and killing every spooky glowing Eyes Dwarf(TONG) should be push upon players too.
Since most players want to go through the dungeon or skirmish quickly and efficiently as possible, the people who want to experience the sightseeing aspect should find like-minded players. I have seen people in IG ask for Bronze level only up front before it starts, so maybe take 30 seconds for sightseeing player to get a consensus.
1
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,406Arc User
I maybe wrong, but a number of the current changes to the queue system appear to be based on attempts to manage player behaviour more than make un-played dungeons see more action.
These were the stated goals of RQ from the Dev.
Goals of Random Queues Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Community in this game gives me a feeling of too much ego is going on. While other D&D mmo ( dont wanna name it) community doesnt care much, they just group up and have fun doing the content. I never even see anyone got kicked from a party in that game.
Goals of Random Queues Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Would be curious how they feel about these goals now.
From my point of view only three of those have been met. If all these were my goals, I would not be happy with the outcome.
Well, technically they probably met all of those goals, though that's easy to do when you are allowed to exclude goals like: Make the game better in some way Produce content and features that solve problems for players and/or the game instead of create them
Seems to me that the random queues stated goals were good in theory and I personally like the random queue process, but it also seems someone forgot to figure in the human factor. There are those who are first and foremost about accumulating as much in game wealth, with as little effort, as possible and any player in the party who might slow down that process by wanting to fight mobs for fun or experience, pick up drops that their character might actually need, open chests or whatever, are too often are considered a hindrance to their end game payout goal.
A lot of new and low level players are getting to experience areas they hadn't been able to prior to the random queue, and even if no player makes a concerted effort to help them out a lot of new/low level players pick up on things like shortcuts, the best tactics to use in some areas and yes, even the ability to avoid some mob confrontations just by watching more experienced players (just like the more experienced players now had someone show them when they were lower level players), as long as those more experienced players don't just run off and leave them behind.
Sorry @dafrca#4810, but hopefully we can agree to disagree here because I believe the random queue experience is helping out a lot more people than it's hurting - but I think people just tend to complain more than they post about positive experiences.
Regardless of how log it takes to run a dungeon, upon the successful completion of that quest the end result is the same.
My opinion is, if someone figures they have to run multiple characters to accumulate even more wealth - and they object to being inconvenienced by other players in their party, well I tend to believe that's on them, not other players and not the game's fault.
What was that line from Shakespeare...
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars (or the game), but in ourselves..."
The developers are closely watching behavior in random queues and will make adjustments as they feel necessary.
I have advocated for geared toons not to get rewards for running leveling dungeons since before random queues and continue to believe that it ruins the experience of new players we all rely on for a healthy game. If the developers only remove the ability for level 70 characters to join the leveling dungeon random queue, they create a hole where fresh-ish 70's can't queue for AD anywhere. That issue would also have to be addressed. (White text = my personal opinion, not an official statement).
The best option is to improve the scaling system. Scale item level down as well as level so that higher geared players arent as overpowered as they are right now in lower dungeons. Final Fantasy XIV does this with great success.
Sorry @dafrca#4810, but hopefully we can agree to disagree here because I believe the random queue experience is helping out a lot more people than it's hurting - but I think people just tend to complain more than they post about positive experiences.
Of course we can disagree. I did say it was my opinion.
The best option is to improve the scaling system. Scale item level down as well as level so that higher geared players arent as overpowered as they are right now in lower dungeons.
Oh-heck-no LoL
Then not only would it take longer to "try" and complete overall, the AFK farmers and leechers will STILL extend that time even further.
It would probably make more sense to scale characters and the content up to the highest player in the group that way the higher ilvl players don't get debuffed and the lower level players seeking the "at level" experience can still get that. Unfortunately speed runners may complain about the difficulty being scaled up to them. This situation is a bowl of spaghetti LoL
Idea
How about "newer accounts" (those that don't have a character at "x" level, when they RQ they are grouped with characters of similar level "x" number of times before they are then pooled with every character that RQ's, that way they can get the "at level" experience a number of times instead of seemingly not at all.
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Actually theres an easy way to make higher level players want to run lower level dungeons. add a bonus reward of some kind for doing so. extra AD scaling with level up to 70 for instance.
Actually theres an easy way to make higher level players want to run lower level dungeons. add a bonus reward of some kind for doing so. extra AD scaling with level up to 70 for instance.
The problem with that is adding additional AD into the market from little to no effort. Part of the reason RQ's was introduced was to curb the amount of AD produced by players, especially since for the most part the easiest content was farmed and the other content ignored for the most part.
The thing that continually happens is when changes are made public/described, a lot of players want to have some kind of "option" where things would still operate the same (or fairly similar) as before. If reducing the amount of AD produced from strictly running easy content is part of the goal, simply adding more RAD from running that same content circumvents that goal. Players often want things both ways so they will not have to adjust themselves accordingly.
In regard to scaling, even if only the characters were scaled up to the highest in the group and the content remained at the same difficulty it would seemingly still be better than reducing the higher ilvl players who earned it and would allow lower ilvl players to perform closer to that of the higher ilvl players reducing the situations where mobs are left intact and they are behind battling them or being downed by them.
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The reason why they didn't just block geared 70's from the levelling dungeons is because without them the new players would wait an hour to get it. There aren't enough new players to pop the queue frequently.
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Dungeon gear scaling would work wonders. The high level geared people in leveling dungeons have killed any fun to be had since its always just hang back and occasionally get a hit in as the overpowered lvl70's zoom through mobs like a hot knife through a vaccum.
How about "newer accounts" (those that don't have a character at "x" level, when they RQ they are grouped with characters of similar level "x" number of times before they are then pooled with every character that RQ's, that way they can get the "at level" experience a number of times instead of seemingly not at all.
I suggested the idea that players who are getting the dungeon for the first time through the content be grouped with simular level players (say within a few levels) at least theire first run. Then, as you say, they can then be placed into the "full" queue.
The best option is to improve the scaling system. Scale item level down as well as level so that higher geared players arent as overpowered as they are right now in lower dungeons.
Oh-heck-no LoL
Then not only would it take longer to "try" and complete overall, the AFK farmers and leechers will STILL extend that time even further.
It would probably make more sense to scale characters and the content up to the highest player in the group that way the higher ilvl players don't get debuffed and the lower level players seeking the "at level" experience can still get that. Unfortunately speed runners may complain about the difficulty being scaled up to them. This situation is a bowl of spaghetti LoL
Idea
How about "newer accounts" (those that don't have a character at "x" level, when they RQ they are grouped with characters of similar level "x" number of times before they are then pooled with every character that RQ's, that way they can get the "at level" experience a number of times instead of seemingly not at all.
Hence my suggestion of two-tiered dungeons based on character/gear-item level...
If a player is under a certain character/gear-item level, they could only participate in tier 1 random dungeons and likewise if a player is over a certain character/gear-item level they can only participate in tier 2 random dungeons - no "scaling" required.
Players in both tiers will still have to put up with players likely above and below their own character and gear-item levels but you wouldn't have level 70 characters with a 11K item level running with level 16 characters with an item level around 500 and vise-versa
And since those participating in a tier 1 dungeon are participating with less experience and lower gear-item levels and those participating in a tier 2 dungeon have more experience and higher gear-item levels, when the chest at the end is opened the AD payout is identical for all players in both tiers... the only thing that is scaled is the experience each player receives based on their character level.
To me that would seem to be the easiest and most fair solution as well as addressing many complaints from higher level characters and lower level characters alike.
Actually theres an easy way to make higher level players want to run lower level dungeons. add a bonus reward of some kind for doing so. extra AD scaling with level up to 70 for instance.
Giving higher level players even more AD's would most certainly encourage higher level players to want to run to run low level dungeons, but that isn't really a problem. Even before the recent changes there were high level players running low level dungeons like the Cloak Tower for quick and easy astral diamonds... if anything it might even make the problem worse.
The problem initially mentioned here was a two higher level players running off from a low level player, leaving him behind and then booting him, presumably because they thought he took too long to catch up.
Giving higher level players more AD's at the end won't solve this problem and it isn't likely to encourage many higher level players to actually help out low level players as they play the same content, which seems to have been one of the stated purposes for the random queue dungeon changes.
One thing I have noticed is there seems to be some kind of end game special drop for one player(?) in the party, I've received one a few times myself.
I don't know if it is random or if it is based on something like the most damage dealt or the most opponents defeated, but if it isn't random and it is associated with the most kills or the highest damage dealt, it would seem to be programmed incentive for some players to run ahead and leave other members of their party behind...
That, if it exists, should be reconsidered in my opinion.
Hence my suggestion of two-tiered dungeons based on character/gear-item level...
If a player is under a certain character/gear-item level, they could only participate in tier 1 random dungeons and likewise if a player is over a certain character/gear-item level they can only participate in tier 2 random dungeons - no "scaling" required.
No bueno.
Locking higher level players out of lower content is not a good thing, the majority of them wouldn't go for that and it would make way for more complaints. They choose the lower content because they can essentially get through it faster.
The "main" problem is player attitude toward each other and the want for artificial segregation which punishes those no longer permitted to participate. Artificially segregating players indefinitely won't necessarily promote positive interactions.
Both higher AND lower level players have the power to mold their experience though instead of wielding that power to help make it happen they seemingly would rather blame the other when they don't bend to their will and or want incentives to "play nice". LoL
Well I mean if item level scaled down you wouldn't need different tiers.
How would that be fair to those that earned the ilvl? If players separated themselves from those who are not like minded arguably "nothing" would need to be changed and no particular group would be in a position to be ousted.
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Well I mean if item level scaled down you wouldn't need different tiers. lvl70 dungeons could be without this scaling of course.
You are right of course if the game programmers scaled everyone's gear to be the same in dungeons it would eliminate the need for tiered dungeons, but then you would also have low level players with almost non existent gear scores and very little experience, able to quest in the toughest dungeons with nearly the same efficiency as players who in most cases, spent a lot of time and effort accumulating their gear to allow them to more successfully navigate higher level dungeons, considering the random aspect of dungeon queuing.
Unless you're only talking about scaling down higher level players in lower level dungeons but I figure you'd have a bunch of higher level players who worked to get better gear only to see all of their efforts suddenly negated because they were randomly thrown into a low level dungeon (it's not like anyone actually has a choice with random dungeon queues). I can't foresee too many high level players, myself included, being happy with either prospect.
I think @trinity706#8838 also confirmed my statement about higher level players not being happy about having their abilities nurffed simply because they were randomly thrown into a low level dungeon.
Also I was just thinking about the degree of difficulty in the scaling down you suggested from a programmer's point of view, but not being a game programmer myself it is purely speculation on my part.
I just figured of the two...
Scaling every high level character that enters a low level dungeon to an lower level, factoring in (negating):
Character specifications (ability score, powers, feats and boons)
Armor and weapons bonus,
Artifacts bonus,
Artifact/gear overload slots bonus,
Enchantment slot bonus,
Companion bonus,
Companion runestone slot bonus,
Companion gear and slot bonuses
Mount bonus and
mount insignia slot bonus -
For each dungeon...
-vs- Two tiered dungeon ranges (low and high) factoring in:
character level (say 16 through 59 for low tier dungeons and 60 through 70 for high tier dungeons)
Item level (over 'x' no access lower tier dungeons - under 'x' no access higher tier dungeons)
The latter would be less difficult from a programmer's point of view.
But then maybe I'm over thinking the whole process, one of my personal quirks I'm afraid...
Scaling the dungeons/players so there's no difference for a L70 would result in all of the L70's farming the 5 man dungeons. I mean, if it's going to take the same amount of time, you may as well get some salvage too.
Net result again - no L70's q'ing for the low dungeons and pre-70 players can't get in because the queue isn't popping.
It's a lose-lose.
Also: @dionchi you can't do anything by item level - it has to be by actual level because IL is based on gear. Take off your gear and you suddenly drop to low IL. Then put it back on once the run starts...
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Hence my suggestion of two-tiered dungeons based on character/gear-item level...
If a player is under a certain character/gear-item level, they could only participate in tier 1 random dungeons and likewise if a player is over a certain character/gear-item level they can only participate in tier 2 random dungeons - no "scaling" required.
No bueno.
Locking higher level players out of lower content is not a good thing, the majority of them wouldn't go for that and it would make way for more complaints. They choose the lower content because they can essentially get through it faster.
The "main" problem is player attitude toward each other and the want for artificial segregation which punishes those no longer permitted to participate. Artificially segregating players indefinitely won't necessarily promote positive interactions.
Both higher AND lower level players have the power to mold their experience though instead of wielding that power to help make it happen they seemingly would rather blame the other when they don't bend to their will and or want incentives to "play nice". LoL
-snip-
I completely agree, "if players separated themselves from those who are not like minded, nothing would need to be changed".. why do higher level, more experienced players even want to quest in low level dungeons? I figure it is to accumulate more in game wealth as fast and as easy as possible.
Why do a lot of lower level players quest in dungeons?
To accumulate in game wealth as fast and as easily as possible...
Problem solved.
For some higher level players that "wealth" tends to be exclusively the chest reward after the final boss battle, the same kinds of stuff they can get questing in the Well of Dragons, the Underdark, Icewind Dale, Sharandar, the Dread Ring, Chult or other areas - albeit necessitating more effort on their part...
However for some lower level players that "wealth" also includes, items and coins dropped by defeated enemies, refining point gems, better or sellable gear for themselves and experience for defeating opponents and completing the quest and they also have fewer or no alternative methods for obtaining their personal wealth, at least not on the scale random dungeons afford them.
Yeah I don't think locking higher level players out of low level dungeons wouldn't be a good thing either, but probably for different reasons...
We've seen some higher level players say they have attempted to help lower level players, every higher level player can try to help lower level players accumulate their own in game wealth. They can give a lower level player a simple rank 5 dark enchantment and let them know it will help them run faster, or tell them a silvery or azure enchantment in gear with a defense slot will help protect them from mobs, or at least allow them to pick up dropped gear that might improve their movement, defense, deflection, power - whatever, on their own without complaining about having to "baby sit" and "carry" and "wait for" lower level players because they are trying to pick up better gear, refining stones or something to sell to improve their characters and playing ability.
Comments
I just had a (*sarcasm alert) lovely experience in the Caverns of Karrundax...
One player wanted to run ahead, bypass as many mobs as possible and another player who said they had only been playing for "two weeks" wanted to fight their way through to the boss.
The player who wanted to run ahead told us to "STOP fighting everything" the other player simply responded "no" so the player who wanted to run through the dungeon stopped and simply told us they were going "AFK".
So we two remaining players fought our way to the first boss, dispatched it and we asked if they wanted to catch up or asked if they are quitting?
Their response was "Naaa, I'm just an a**", (believe it or not that was a direct quote) then told us we could have been "finished about 10-15 minutes ago" - except we'd only been running for about 5 minutes - probably less if you discount the time we stopped to try to get the 'offended player' to come with us.
Anyhow the two of us fought our way through the rest of the dungeon and arrived at the last boss gate and we told the 'offended player' he could catch up, we'd wait for him and asked why he thought he had to rush through the dungeon.
He told us he had "7 characters" to run and he still had "homework to do" (you can't make this stuff up).
When we told him it isn't JUST about the AD's for everyone, some of us want to have fun and actually run dungeons he told us then we should "queue private"...
The other player and I waited at the last boss gate just chatting but the 'offended player' hadn't moved from where he stopped so after about 8 minutes more (He Still Hadn't Moved) from arriving at "You must gather your party" boss gate we did kick him and two of us fought our way in, laid low the dragon and we parted ways.
Yes the whole thing took a little longer with only two people instead of three participating but it was done despite the 'offended player' thinking he was going to punish us by making us wait as the final boss gate.
First he complains because we were taking too much time fighting "trash mobs", then he goes AFK and waits around for about 10 minutes trying to tell us how we weren't doing it right... That was hilarious.
I will run to the best of my ability to keep up with a party who decides to run through a dungeon, but I won't automatically take the side of a dungeon runner over another party member and I certainly will not leave a party member behind just because they can't keep up.
Fortunately I'm finding there are quite a few other players out there who feel the same way.
One the other hand, dev created a situation for "veterans" to get AD. And, the "veterans" are flooding the LRQ.
We all should know where the fingers should point to.
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Since most players want to go through the dungeon or skirmish quickly and efficiently as possible, the people who want to experience the sightseeing aspect should find like-minded players. I have seen people in IG ask for Bronze level only up front before it starts, so maybe take 30 seconds for sightseeing player to get a consensus.
Goals of Random Queues
Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
From my point of view only three of those have been met. If all these were my goals, I would not be happy with the outcome.
Make the game better in some way
Produce content and features that solve problems for players and/or the game instead of create them
...y'know, stuff like that
Not sure I would agree they have met this goal in any way. The others I guess you could argue they met at some level and to some degree, but this one?
In my opinion, and it is opinion I realize, they have hurt more players than they have helped.
A lot of new and low level players are getting to experience areas they hadn't been able to prior to the random queue, and even if no player makes a concerted effort to help them out a lot of new/low level players pick up on things like shortcuts, the best tactics to use in some areas and yes, even the ability to avoid some mob confrontations just by watching more experienced players (just like the more experienced players now had someone show them when they were lower level players), as long as those more experienced players don't just run off and leave them behind.
Sorry @dafrca#4810, but hopefully we can agree to disagree here because I believe the random queue experience is helping out a lot more people than it's hurting - but I think people just tend to complain more than they post about positive experiences.
Regardless of how log it takes to run a dungeon, upon the successful completion of that quest the end result is the same.
My opinion is, if someone figures they have to run multiple characters to accumulate even more wealth - and they object to being inconvenienced by other players in their party, well I tend to believe that's on them, not other players and not the game's fault.
What was that line from Shakespeare...
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars (or the game), but in ourselves..."
The best option is to improve the scaling system. Scale item level down as well as level so that higher geared players arent as overpowered as they are right now in lower dungeons. Final Fantasy XIV does this with great success.
Then not only would it take longer to "try" and complete overall, the AFK farmers and leechers will STILL extend that time even further.
It would probably make more sense to scale characters and the content up to the highest player in the group that way the higher ilvl players don't get debuffed and the lower level players seeking the "at level" experience can still get that. Unfortunately speed runners may complain about the difficulty being scaled up to them. This situation is a bowl of spaghetti
Idea
How about "newer accounts" (those that don't have a character at "x" level, when they RQ they are grouped with characters of similar level "x" number of times before they are then pooled with every character that RQ's, that way they can get the "at level" experience a number of times instead of seemingly not at all.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The thing that continually happens is when changes are made public/described, a lot of players want to have some kind of "option" where things would still operate the same (or fairly similar) as before. If reducing the amount of AD produced from strictly running easy content is part of the goal, simply adding more RAD from running that same content circumvents that goal. Players often want things both ways so they will not have to adjust themselves accordingly.
In regard to scaling, even if only the characters were scaled up to the highest in the group and the content remained at the same difficulty it would seemingly still be better than reducing the higher ilvl players who earned it and would allow lower ilvl players to perform closer to that of the higher ilvl players reducing the situations where mobs are left intact and they are behind battling them or being downed by them.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
If a player is under a certain character/gear-item level, they could only participate in tier 1 random dungeons and likewise if a player is over a certain character/gear-item level they can only participate in tier 2 random dungeons - no "scaling" required.
Players in both tiers will still have to put up with players likely above and below their own character and gear-item levels but you wouldn't have level 70 characters with a 11K item level running with level 16 characters with an item level around 500 and vise-versa
And since those participating in a tier 1 dungeon are participating with less experience and lower gear-item levels and those participating in a tier 2 dungeon have more experience and higher gear-item levels, when the chest at the end is opened the AD payout is identical for all players in both tiers... the only thing that is scaled is the experience each player receives based on their character level.
To me that would seem to be the easiest and most fair solution as well as addressing many complaints from higher level characters and lower level characters alike. Giving higher level players even more AD's would most certainly encourage higher level players to want to run to run low level dungeons, but that isn't really a problem. Even before the recent changes there were high level players running low level dungeons like the Cloak Tower for quick and easy astral diamonds... if anything it might even make the problem worse.
The problem initially mentioned here was a two higher level players running off from a low level player, leaving him behind and then booting him, presumably because they thought he took too long to catch up.
Giving higher level players more AD's at the end won't solve this problem and it isn't likely to encourage many higher level players to actually help out low level players as they play the same content, which seems to have been one of the stated purposes for the random queue dungeon changes.
One thing I have noticed is there seems to be some kind of end game special drop for one player(?) in the party, I've received one a few times myself.
I don't know if it is random or if it is based on something like the most damage dealt or the most opponents defeated, but if it isn't random and it is associated with the most kills or the highest damage dealt, it would seem to be programmed incentive for some players to run ahead and leave other members of their party behind...
That, if it exists, should be reconsidered in my opinion.
Locking higher level players out of lower content is not a good thing, the majority of them wouldn't go for that and it would make way for more complaints. They choose the lower content because they can essentially get through it faster.
The "main" problem is player attitude toward each other and the want for artificial segregation which punishes those no longer permitted to participate. Artificially segregating players indefinitely won't necessarily promote positive interactions.
Both higher AND lower level players have the power to mold their experience though instead of wielding that power to help make it happen they seemingly would rather blame the other when they don't bend to their will and or want incentives to "play nice". LoL How would that be fair to those that earned the ilvl? If players separated themselves from those who are not like minded arguably "nothing" would need to be changed and no particular group would be in a position to be ousted.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Unless you're only talking about scaling down higher level players in lower level dungeons but I figure you'd have a bunch of higher level players who worked to get better gear only to see all of their efforts suddenly negated because they were randomly thrown into a low level dungeon (it's not like anyone actually has a choice with random dungeon queues). I can't foresee too many high level players, myself included, being happy with either prospect.
I think @trinity706#8838 also confirmed my statement about higher level players not being happy about having their abilities nurffed simply because they were randomly thrown into a low level dungeon.
Also I was just thinking about the degree of difficulty in the scaling down you suggested from a programmer's point of view, but not being a game programmer myself it is purely speculation on my part.
I just figured of the two...
Scaling every high level character that enters a low level dungeon to an lower level, factoring in (negating):
- Character specifications (ability score, powers, feats and boons)
- Armor and weapons bonus,
- Artifacts bonus,
- Artifact/gear overload slots bonus,
- Enchantment slot bonus,
- Companion bonus,
- Companion runestone slot bonus,
- Companion gear and slot bonuses
- Mount bonus and
- mount insignia slot bonus -
For each dungeon...-vs- Two tiered dungeon ranges (low and high) factoring in:
- character level (say 16 through 59 for low tier dungeons and 60 through 70 for high tier dungeons)
- Item level (over 'x' no access lower tier dungeons - under 'x' no access higher tier dungeons)
The latter would be less difficult from a programmer's point of view.But then maybe I'm over thinking the whole process, one of my personal quirks I'm afraid...
Net result again - no L70's q'ing for the low dungeons and pre-70 players can't get in because the queue isn't popping.
It's a lose-lose.
Also: @dionchi you can't do anything by item level - it has to be by actual level because IL is based on gear. Take off your gear and you suddenly drop to low IL. Then put it back on once the run starts...
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Why do a lot of lower level players quest in dungeons?
To accumulate in game wealth as fast and as easily as possible...
Problem solved.
For some higher level players that "wealth" tends to be exclusively the chest reward after the final boss battle, the same kinds of stuff they can get questing in the Well of Dragons, the Underdark, Icewind Dale, Sharandar, the Dread Ring, Chult or other areas - albeit necessitating more effort on their part...
However for some lower level players that "wealth" also includes, items and coins dropped by defeated enemies, refining point gems, better or sellable gear for themselves and experience for defeating opponents and completing the quest and they also have fewer or no alternative methods for obtaining their personal wealth, at least not on the scale random dungeons afford them.
Yeah I don't think locking higher level players out of low level dungeons wouldn't be a good thing either, but probably for different reasons...
We've seen some higher level players say they have attempted to help lower level players, every higher level player can try to help lower level players accumulate their own in game wealth. They can give a lower level player a simple rank 5 dark enchantment and let them know it will help them run faster, or tell them a silvery or azure enchantment in gear with a defense slot will help protect them from mobs, or at least allow them to pick up dropped gear that might improve their movement, defense, deflection, power - whatever, on their own without complaining about having to "baby sit" and "carry" and "wait for" lower level players because they are trying to pick up better gear, refining stones or something to sell to improve their characters and playing ability.