Pretty much at any time lower level players and or higher level players can group up and queue together...
Instead of funneling themselves into the same system that will eventually put them together and more than likely result in both groups not liking the result:
- Low level players wanting to get the "full" experience of leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no higher level players "ruining" their experience.
- High level players wanting to speed run leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no lower level players slowing them down.
It's so simple that seemingly it's hard and doesn't require changing the system but rather players changing the manner in which they utilize it...
If you random queue alone you are willfully putting yourself into a possibly compromising situation, lower level players getting left behind, higher level players being slowed down...
Players can't really complain when they could simply group up and queue random...
BTW suggesting that only lower level players should have access to leveling dungeons is quite selfish. A number of players (both lower and higher level) utilize the RAD from leveling dungeons/skirmishes and preventing the higher level players from being able to receive RAD from them is "discrimination" to state it the least.
Nicely stated but just for clarification, I didn't say only lower level players should have access to RAD - just only lower level players should have access to lower level dungeons... but then I also believe the AD payout at the end of dungeons should be identical for both low level and higher level dungeons, not scaled to the player level or dungeon difficulty or we would find ourselves right back in the conundrum that I believe appeared to instigate these changes in the first place, some higher level players dominating things like game play in some areas, prices on the Auction House, etc. just because of their ability to more easily earn masses of wealth by repeatedly running AD paying dungeons instead of playing content, as opposed to players not able to do the same and finding themselves priced out of many of the things they want or need to progress and actually play the game and find it more difficult to run game content because they're mostly priced out of what they need by way of better gear.
People still get paid at the end of a run but amassing AD wealth is equal for all players at every level, not exorbitantly high for existing higher level players who wind up controlling the Auction House and by comparison paltry for new or lower level players who can rarely afford to purchase anything from the Auction House... {That's probably going to be a real unpopular suggestion for some players}.
The goal I figure is to allow people to earn by selling and buying drops to allow them to more effectively run actual game content - not to simply amass more wealth.
But then that's just my personal thoughts on the topic.
Why not gate AD rewards behind the leveling skirmishes instead of the leveling dungeons?
That way, new and leveling players can get some AD that they need to progress, without their experience being ruined by level 70 speedrunners. To avoid the situation with people making characters just to exploit something like the Blacklake Terror skirmish, you can make the AD rewards scale by level, so Blacklake Terror would only give small amount of AD, and Aberrant Assault would give a much larger amount of AD.
With the leveling dungeons, you can have rewards that are appropriate for leveling players - maybe an XP booster, or epic leveling gear that might salvage only for 500-1000 AD or so but would be much more useful for new players to actually equip, but the salvage value really wouldn't be worth it for level 70 speedrunners.
I think they already do gate ad behind the lvling randome skirmish q.
Well that is good. It has been so long since I did a leveling skirmish I did not know. But my suggestion would be to have leveling skirmishes be the main source of RAD for leveling players, and take the RAD away from the leveling dungeons, instead put leveling-specific rewards like XP boosters or epic leveling gear in the dungeon chests. The epic leveling gear shouldn't salvage for very much, maybe 1k AD or so. It would be a small reward for leveling players, but not worth it for level 70 speedrunners. For new level 70 players, I like the progressive reward system that someone else posted:
Queue for a random T1 dungeon, get a T1-level reward (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD) Queue for a random T2 dungeon, get T1 + T2 rewards (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD + 8k AD = 12k AD) Queue for a random T3 dungeon, get T1 + T2 + T3 rewards (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD + 8k AD + 16k AD = 28k AD)
And, max 2 RAD dungeon rewards per day.
So new level 70 players can still do the T1/T2 content and get AD towards progression, while higher-level players are incentivized, for AD/time ratio purposes, to do the hardest content that they can successfully complete to maximize their AD gains.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,399Arc User
edited November 2017
For those who played long enough would know how bad the inflation could be. It did not balance out. For one, at that time, to get Zen exchange done, it was about 3 months. People was trading with underground currency. It was lockbox key (then not trade-able later), Gold (somehow gold was used, I still do not understand how that would work but it appeared it did), GMOP, etc. People bought stuff from Zen store to sell in AH so that it could be over 500:1 ratio. It was like 1000:1 for the effective exchange. I don't want that to happen again. If you think the stuff in AH is expensive now, it was more expensive.
The more AD you can get is not necessary better for you in this game. What is better for you is: how much more AD you can get than other people.
i.e. you get a million more AD is not good if everyone else are getting 5 millions.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Someone I know was playing a lvl20 rogue in the LRQ and got grouped with two level 70's. One of the lvl70's instantly private messaged him and asked if he was a bot. No, why? Well, because your IL is so low.
Good grief. Who would've thought that the leveling dungeons sometimes have lowbies in them.
It looks like portions of discussion may now be moot as the developers have announced: "Updates to Random Queues", I still see no address about disgruntled higher level players kicking out or otherwise making the experience more difficult for slower and less experienced low level players (which was the origional premise of this thread), but hopefully what, if anything they plan to do about that will be forthcoming.
Just to be clear, I started this thread right after getting kicked so I was a bit pissed. Just an FYI, love the game, one of the best MMOs out IMHO.
I get what the devs are trying to do, they have created content and they want to encourage that content to be played and they want to ensure that if others want to play certain content that they can actually get two others in a queue to do so.
Instead of using a stick to beat players into these queues, give people a reason to go into the other queues. Whatever is the lowest rated dungeon, find out whats wrong with it and tweak or rework it. Make one that is just funny and fun to do. Make one that turns your toons all into trolls and you bash your way though it. Etc and so on. In other words, use creativity to fix the issues you perceive. Give different drops.
One of my favorite events that Cryptic has done is the siege of neverwinter. Its was a nice daily to pop in there and do two encounters. In fact I would just hang in there past the two. If they made that a permanent skirmish or made an open dungeon that was not a "run" but you could explore and hit X number of encounters to get your daily and had more then 3 others in there running around, that would be great.
This is exactly what they were told would happen. Forcing people to run things the way THEY want it run is a recipe for disaster. Now you have to look at both sides of this too. From the perspective of the BIS folks at the final boss, they were coerced into running the random queue. They aren't there by choice. Of course they will get impatient if they have to wait for someone to show up at the door. They are just doing what the devs forced them to do. Previously, they would have just run this content solo and no lowbies would have gotten run over.
If they had killed everything as they went... & level 70's can one-shot with an AOE encounter or at-will, so there are no excuses... they wouldn't have been waiting.
That is not entirely right. Speaking of normal SP, there are adds, that dont attack, if you dont get near to them. Some on the way, some in two big rooms. Should you pull and kill all of them, so a wandering player does not trigger them even, if they are out of the way and there is no valid reason, to pull them.
As I described before, in VT is a spawn at the first campfire, when you killed the first groups of trash adds. Are we supposed, to go back and kill the spawn, so the 5 min AFK slackers dont get killed by them? As I said before, there is no problem in doing your share and more, but EVERYONE should be able to contribute something and if a player cant kill one add in a leveling dungeon or 3 players get killed by 3 adds in VT, I wont take the blame for not killing respawns etc.
This is exactly right. First, this thread is specifically detailing one players experience in the Cloak Tower. There is no excuse for a level 70 toon to run ahead & leave a level13 toon to fight their way thru alone. Period. 2nd-lee, I have not soloed the Spellplague Caverns.. I only made it up to The Pirate King's Lair when 12B dropped. As a lvl 70, with mediocre gears & 2 - 4 boons, AOE can one-shot any mob I came across. The mini-bosses melted in a minute or two. Even End Boss fights took less than 5 mins. If you want to run ahead to the end, you have that right. But rights don't come free. The price you pay is you have to wait for your group (this is group content, after all) to fight their way thru the trash you left behind, or go back & help. If you choose not to participate in group content, then the final option is to quit & take the leaver penalty. Which you deserve. 3rd-leigh, AFAIK, even with the cluster-hamster which is 12B, VT is still not a leveling dungeon. But, it was one way for new level 70's to earn AD & better gear, so they could go on to complete the first few boons. This way leads to less skwishie toons that can actually help their groups. If those new toons needed help, because they didn't have a $5,000.oo gaming 'pewter, or lagged a bit loading the dungeon (gawd knows it takes a bit for me when the weather is bad) or just because they are new & are still working their way up to where you already are, well, shame on them. Let's just take them out back, behind the Moonstone Mask & beat them with the Newbz Stickz (TM).
The real big issue with the RQ is that it ruins gameplay. I for one despise FBI and MSP I actually loath them but also have absolutely no use in running them anymore. Yet if I want to end up with some AD next to""mainly" salvage I am forced by Cryptic to participate in content I Always tried to avoid just because it's appeal to me is so low it can't even be measured.
So Cryptic decided to punich me, and with me many others, for seeking fun in specific content and only reward me extra if I do things I don't really feel like doing.
As for leveling dungeons being needed to get your daily dosis of AD is also utter HAMSTER, not every new player or low level likes to be chasing behind some lvl 70 or 70's who race towards the end. They actually feel completely useless and gain absolutely no sense of accomplishment. Maybe one of the worst setups to make people even like dungeons or learn from doing stuff that challenges them. By the time they hit 70 they still haven't learned jack on how to teamwork running a dungeon and then at some point they start epics and they fail hard. Either by being told off by others for their inability to tank, regardless they never really had a chance to learn it because why learn it? The dungeons were Always completed before they even had time to learn anything. Or their inability to dps or use the right skills because also that they never learned really in a group because them darn 70's Always solved all HAMSTER without them anyways.
Yes ofcourse you can send them to guides and bla bla, but a large part of the playerbase actually hates to log in, just try to get to 70 asap to then having to go search online how to build and play their character in service of those who never really paid them any service by ruining their gameplay to start with by denying them to play their characters in dungeons.
The whole race to 70 to then start to grind like a chinese railroad worker in the 1800's to get scraps and bits is hardly a fun experience.
If cryptic really wanted to make the gameplay more enticing to players they really left out the gameplay experience of new players and the focus really started to hit to the wallet warriors who will buy the HAMSTER they need to run along in the higher regions. They cater to the more established players and guilds that have enough people to farm all the stuff needed to keep their SH growing. Small guilds just get shaftedby this whole setup, just like new players also get the finger. Instead of doing the campaign token HAMSTER they could have made campaigns more fun to complete, but i's easier and more profitable for them to handle it the way these companies Always handle stuff. Put something up for sale to help people circumvent stuff and shortly after you did that you also put a means ingame to get a discount on the same grind.
It's catering to the big wallets but drop just enough crumbs to keep the little people occupied and give them the idea they should be happy and in the meantime the bussiness model tells you this will give some more income.
Sadly they never really factor in the playerbase as a factor but only see raw numbers and percentages. And by the time they see their mistakes we lost quit some good people to other games because everyone get's to a point they wonder why they even care or should bother with this nonsense.
Making your lawn look more green than the neighbours lawn often means you used more HAMSTER to get it there.
On topic: I dont think the OP is being entirely forthcoming here. The way CT works requires almost all of the mobs and bosses to be killed just to get to the final boss circle. There is nothing that you cant just run by and there should be no masses of mobs that need killed, none need killed at all when the final boss circle is activated.
No, you don't need to. Yes, you need to kill the bosses. You don't need to kill most of the mob. You only need to kill enough so that they won't interfere opening the door to next stage. If you are TR who can run super fast, you don't need to kill much. I solo with all my capable toons just for the heck of it before mod 12b. No, they don't need to kill most. We ran by everything non stop and 0 fight until reaching the door. The mob are not exactly runner. The key is speed that helps you to activate the door before the mob came close enough to make you in combat mode. The faster you run the least mob will follow (of course, it will not work well if it is not solo or the party is not on the same page).
Some slower but persistent mob actually came in after I killed the final boss.
Post edited by plasticbat on
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
isn't there like a 15m timeout before you can kick a player from dungeon? I know i've tried in skirmishes and the skirmish is over before a vote kick can be enabled. If cloaktower takes more than 15m I'd be kicked someone myself.
As for new players not getting the dungeon experience, they aren't anyhow. 3 man dungeon, no required roles. It's just a zerg fest even if you get a group of low lvl players running it. If they didn't do this, you would never get into a dungeon because the old system where they were restricted to low lvl players to queue means finding 5 players, running the same dungeon in a limited range of lvls, with the appropriate roles queuing at the same time of day. Which means it will never pop except possibly on weekends during the euro or us prime time.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
isn't there like a 15m timeout before you can kick a player from dungeon? I know i've tried in skirmishes and the skirmish is over before a vote kick can be enabled. If cloaktower takes more than 15m I'd be kicked someone myself.
As for new players not getting the dungeon experience, they aren't anyhow. 3 man dungeon, no required roles. It's just a zerg fest even if you get a group of low lvl players running it. If they didn't do this, you would never get into a dungeon because the old system where they were restricted to low lvl players to queue means finding 5 players, running the same dungeon in a limited range of lvls, with the appropriate roles queuing at the same time of day. Which means it will never pop except possibly on weekends during the euro or us prime time.
Putz, I think it's 5min for a player, and 15 for a total disband vote (give up and surrender one). I've ran some to try and new players can totally to get lost over 5 minutes, even when you babysit them and always just in front pointing the way.
I don't think they all zerg it, there was a significant time between the 5 men version and the 3, when it was made 3 people no roles? Mod6 I think
Obviously there were issues, are issues, and will be issues. It was bot infested, and later it wont pop. But there were some suggestions like moving the AD to the higher dungeons (with the tier split) or make a completion of higher tier count towards lower tier too, so there is progression (ofcs with different AD sums) or suggestions to separate the level 70 people altogether in RQ, with also the possibility to make rewards more dynamically balanced with the run times.
I think this is all more a case of people seeing the extreme cases and calling them the norm than anything else. I am a returning player and came back right before the random queues started (like 4 days before). I have leveled 2 characters from around level 14-16 or so to level 70 in the random queue since it started. These characters only got xp from the random dungeon queue and did nothing else, so that is a large number of runs. I had high level players leave me behind a few times (less than 4 or 5 times) in all those run but they came back and helped me if I got stuck those times. I did not get kicked from a single group.
Just last night I spent my five RQs running after 70+ Speed Runners and was about half way through when the purple "Your Party is Waiting For You" message came up. I admit no one kicked me, but in two they did leave me a lot of monsters to fight to try and catch up with them. To say this change is good for me is a lie, to say I am just exaggerating the worst case is also untrue. Not one of the five were me with others at the same level. No tone of them included a reply to my messages saying I was new and would be open to advice. Am I making the RQ work, of course, I have no other choice if I want to be able to earn AD. I can't get into Epic Dungeons (someday just not now) and my gear is not high enough for Skirmishes. So I live with the Speed Runs. But I also resent the idea that I am having fun doing so. It is not fun and it is not making me a better player either.
While I do agree this could be a solution, I think you are making sound easier then it is. Even once you join a guild, to find a group every day willing to group up to do the "dailies" is not as easy as you make it sound. So I end up doing my one dungeon my pre-70s can do using the PUG system and pray the 70+ speed runners will at least not leave me drowning in monsters as I run to catch up.
isn't there like a 15m timeout before you can kick a player from dungeon? I know i've tried in skirmishes and the skirmish is over before a vote kick can be enabled.
The kick timer is definitely not five minutes. I tested it last night on afk'ers, and had people try it on me just to check but it just does not work.
Obviously we dont know why it does not work but not being able to kick people who are still at the start area, have died or committed suicide and not returned, are doing the new annoying thing of jumping into then out of the end boss circle for a few minutes, have started running only once the end boss circle is active, as examples, and not being able to kick these after five minutes is very irritating.
edit: I also had a player in spell plague who was level 47 and had a total of three items equipped, players like this who are expecting to be carried need something done about them. I know these are "levelling dungeons" but if you do nothing you should get nothing:
"AFK farmers" happen in skirmishes as well. In skirmishes sometimes after two minutes a vote kick can be initiated but "most" of the time it cannot, seemingly sometimes loot on the ground prevents vote kick initiation.
Some players in skirmishes do similar as you have described (they wait at the first campfire until the boss has been defeated or is near defeat). Have live streamed/recorded a number of players in MotTH (Master of the Hunt) that start moving as soon as the skirmish is completed, then they make their way to the chest and get rewarded and their score is all zeros...
The thing about the quicker skirmishes is they are often enough completed very quickly so vote kicking sometimes becomes available moments before completion, not to mention having to pull up the menu, type a reason AND get a majority vote which can easily be circumvented if two players are either AFK farming together or one declines or simply doesn't vote...
Something like an AFK timer where a character that doesn't move (actually move around, not just auto-run in the wall) for "x" amount of time gets prompted with a screen where they have to correctly input a button sequence (random) and if rewards are determined by score could help, at least with a system like that (or similar) they would have to move around and participate even if just "minimally" to get rewarded instead of AFK'ing to it.
While I do agree this could be a solution, I think you are making sound easier then it is.
Unfortunately "tone" isn't "easily" conveyed as spoken language. It is a suggestion, more or less difficult depending on the player, their Guild(s)/Alliance(s) and or friend's list. It wasn't meant to come off as easy to do all the time but rather simply a suggested course of action/alternative rather than just letting the queue determine group composition.
A "few" moments to try and find a group can prevent being slowed down or rushed.
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The kick timer is definitely not five minutes. I tested it last night on afk'ers, and had people try it on me just to check but it just does not work.
Obviously we dont know why it does not work but not being able to kick people who are still at the start area, have died or committed suicide and not returned, are doing the new annoying thing of jumping into then out of the end boss circle for a few minutes, have started running only once the end boss circle is active, as examples, and not being able to kick these after five minutes is very irritating.
edit: I also had a player in spell plague who was level 47 and had a total of three items equipped, players like this who are expecting to be carried need something done about them. I know these are "levelling dungeons" but if you do nothing you should get nothing: kicking is the normal way to prevent this but with the difficulty in kicking you just cannot.
Quoted for truth. There is a fair amount of players expecting to be carried through all sorts of content. I notice toons which are so unnderequipped it hurts. Sometimes it looks liek sheer laziness. The RQ system has maybe showed them up a lot more than pugging did?
Then having said that pugging used to have plenty of low level toons.
BUT NOW you cant even leave what is essentially an epic fail group without penalty.
Example - we were doing Kessels Retreat and the group I was in ploughed into the first two or three mob groups, aggroed all of them and were wiped, except for my toon. They all rezzed and charged back and did exactly the same thing again, twice. Whilst all the time I am shouting in party to SLOW DOWN DO THE MOBS ONE AT A TIME.
After the fourth wipe they began to get it. So its a learning experience and it became a bit more fun AFTER they started to listen. But I have had runs where the newer players just dont listen and EXPECT the other toons to DPS and carry them because....
Dum dum dum thats all they ever learn in levelling dungeons!
I notice toons which are so unnderequipped it hurts. Sometimes it looks liek sheer laziness. The RQ system has maybe showed them up a lot more than pugging did?
Just a thought, I came to this game as my first attempt to play an MMO. No experience with MMOs, little experience with computer games at all. Joined because my young son wanted to try and play and wanted me to join him. To say my level of ignorance (the real use of the word by the way) was high would be an understatement. I did my best to pay attention and began to lurk here and other forums reading to see what I could learn. One of the best moments for me was when my son showed me a message he received from a 70+ Speed Runner he was Pugged with (pre 12b by the way). To sum it up the message said, "you tried real hard, keep it up. Here are a few suggestions to help improve your gear. "
While I understand a low level with poor gear choices might be a major PITA for you, it could also be they really don't know what they are doing and could use some guidance. Like I said, just a thought.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
2 pages worth of comments have been removed from this thread due to flaming, replying to flaming (which is a violation), and general off topic bickering. Feedback is great, but please leave it without insulting your fellow players. Thanks!
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The other day, I ended up in cloak tower with two low level characters. I cleared the whole place, killed every single enemy to make sure the other two could follow even though they were lagging behind. When they finally reached the last boss, they voted me out. How nice of them.
The other day, I ended up in cloak tower with two low level characters. I cleared the whole place, killed every single enemy to make sure the other two could follow even though they were lagging behind. When they finally reached the last boss, they voted me out. How nice of them.
Your percieved sarcasm aside, perhaps the "two low level characters" didn't appreciate someone "clearing the whole place out - killing every single enemy" because they were actually there to play the content (the way it is supposed to be played), not just run to the end game to pick up the AD reward at the end...
I think it has already been mentioned that some of these players are doing these dungeons for the first time or first few times and perhaps they want to try to actually experience a little of where they are, kill a few mobs themselves (or at least help out) and pick up drops, open chests and explore a few nooks and crannies before they face the final battle.
I know that is probably a novel and possibly even unpopular concept for some higher level players who have already run those dungeons a dozen times previously, or are only running the dungeons to get the AD's and get out, but I think is is something more people should consider personally.
Whether a player runs through content, slaughtering everything in sight (or not) -vs- sticks with the party and allows the least experienced, poorest equipped player to set the pace and actually experience their environment if they want to, the end result is the same... when you do in the boss at the end, you get your payout... and I don't thing it is too hard to figure out how the other party members want to play it, if any one actually cares to try.
The only variable seems to be is if you are attempting to play without consideration of the other people in the party running ahead expecting everyone to keep up and believing the only purpose for these dungeons is the AD payout at the end - or if you are considerate enough to run the content as an actual party member (the way you are supposed to), letting everyone actually participate in the dungeon content, prior to arriving at that final battle.
It's called "perspective" being able to see the issue from not only your perspective, but also the perspective of the other people in your party.
-snip- Example - we were doing Kessels Retreat and the group I was in ploughed into the first two or three mob groups, aggroed all of them and were wiped, except for my toon. They all rezzed and charged back and did exactly the same thing again, twice. Whilst all the time I am shouting in party to SLOW DOWN DO THE MOBS ONE AT A TIME.
After the fourth wipe they began to get it. So its a learning experience and it became a bit more fun AFTER they started to listen. But I have had runs where the newer players just dont listen and EXPECT the other toons to DPS and carry them because....
Dum dum dum thats all they ever learn in levelling dungeons!
I applaud you for attempting to share your experience with other players and I'm gladdened to hear it turned out well, that time...
But on the other hand and just speaking as an observer, when low level players are thrown in with high level players in a leveling dungeon, a lot of times what they experience from those higher level players, is that higher level player 'plowing into mobs and charging ahead', so it might be that their actions were actually the result of their previous experiences and not necessarily completely due to their own lack of proper judgment.
Something else I've observed is sometimes it isn't that other players "don't listen", sometimes it's that other players don't speak the same language. I was recently in a party and the two other people kept talking about something, but what it was I didn't have a clue because I don't speak much German at all but I did remember to say danke (one of the few words I do know) at the end - one of them even complimented me on my use of the German "thank you" when they found I don't actually speak German - just something to keep in mind.
As for the statement that there are some players (new and old) that "expect others to carry them" or just intentionally hang back, let everyone else do the heavy lifting so they can swoop in at the end and get their payout... unfortunately there are undeniably some players like that. During the last CTA event I couldn't even begin to guess how many people I noticed (high and low level characters) who didn't even leave the assembly area or found a quiet little corner to lurk in, until it was all over but they were running full speed toward the chest just as soon as the boss went down.
Comments
People still get paid at the end of a run but amassing AD wealth is equal for all players at every level, not exorbitantly high for existing higher level players who wind up controlling the Auction House and by comparison paltry for new or lower level players who can rarely afford to purchase anything from the Auction House... {That's probably going to be a real unpopular suggestion for some players}.
The goal I figure is to allow people to earn by selling and buying drops to allow them to more effectively run actual game content - not to simply amass more wealth.
But then that's just my personal thoughts on the topic.
Queue for a random T1 dungeon, get a T1-level reward (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD)
Queue for a random T2 dungeon, get T1 + T2 rewards (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD + 8k AD = 12k AD)
Queue for a random T3 dungeon, get T1 + T2 + T3 rewards (say, for the sake of argument, 4k AD + 8k AD + 16k AD = 28k AD)
And, max 2 RAD dungeon rewards per day.
So new level 70 players can still do the T1/T2 content and get AD towards progression, while higher-level players are incentivized, for AD/time ratio purposes, to do the hardest content that they can successfully complete to maximize their AD gains.
The more AD you can get is not necessary better for you in this game.
What is better for you is: how much more AD you can get than other people.
i.e. you get a million more AD is not good if everyone else are getting 5 millions.
Good grief. Who would've thought that the leveling dungeons sometimes have lowbies in them.
The discussion forum for these updates is here: UPDATES TO RANDOM QUEUES
I get what the devs are trying to do, they have created content and they want to encourage that content to be played and they want to ensure that if others want to play certain content that they can actually get two others in a queue to do so.
Instead of using a stick to beat players into these queues, give people a reason to go into the other queues. Whatever is the lowest rated dungeon, find out whats wrong with it and tweak or rework it. Make one that is just funny and fun to do. Make one that turns your toons all into trolls and you bash your way though it. Etc and so on. In other words, use creativity to fix the issues you perceive. Give different drops.
One of my favorite events that Cryptic has done is the siege of neverwinter. Its was a nice daily to pop in there and do two encounters. In fact I would just hang in there past the two. If they made that a permanent skirmish or made an open dungeon that was not a "run" but you could explore and hit X number of encounters to get your daily and had more then 3 others in there running around, that would be great.
Just think out of the box.
First, this thread is specifically detailing one players experience in the Cloak Tower. There is no excuse for a level 70 toon to run ahead & leave a level13 toon to fight their way thru alone. Period.
2nd-lee, I have not soloed the Spellplague Caverns.. I only made it up to The Pirate King's Lair when 12B dropped. As a lvl 70, with mediocre gears & 2 - 4 boons, AOE can one-shot any mob I came across. The mini-bosses melted in a minute or two. Even End Boss fights took less than 5 mins. If you want to run ahead to the end, you have that right. But rights don't come free. The price you pay is you have to wait for your group (this is group content, after all) to fight their way thru the trash you left behind, or go back & help. If you choose not to participate in group content, then the final option is to quit & take the leaver penalty. Which you deserve.
3rd-leigh, AFAIK, even with the cluster-hamster which is 12B, VT is still not a leveling dungeon. But, it was one way for new level 70's to earn AD & better gear, so they could go on to complete the first few boons. This way leads to less skwishie toons that can actually help their groups. If those new toons needed help, because they didn't have a $5,000.oo gaming 'pewter, or lagged a bit loading the dungeon (gawd knows it takes a bit for me when the weather is bad) or just because they are new & are still working their way up to where you already are, well, shame on them. Let's just take them out back, behind the Moonstone Mask & beat them with the Newbz Stickz (TM).
I for one despise FBI and MSP I actually loath them but also have absolutely no use in running them anymore.
Yet if I want to end up with some AD next to""mainly" salvage I am forced by Cryptic to participate in content I Always tried to avoid just because it's appeal to me is so low it can't even be measured.
So Cryptic decided to punich me, and with me many others, for seeking fun in specific content and only reward me extra if I do things I don't really feel like doing.
As for leveling dungeons being needed to get your daily dosis of AD is also utter HAMSTER, not every new player or low level likes to be chasing behind some lvl 70 or 70's who race towards the end. They actually feel completely useless and gain absolutely no sense of accomplishment. Maybe one of the worst setups to make people even like dungeons or learn from doing stuff that challenges them.
By the time they hit 70 they still haven't learned jack on how to teamwork running a dungeon and then at some point they start epics and they fail hard.
Either by being told off by others for their inability to tank, regardless they never really had a chance to learn it because why learn it? The dungeons were Always completed before they even had time to learn anything.
Or their inability to dps or use the right skills because also that they never learned really in a group because them darn 70's Always solved all HAMSTER without them anyways.
Yes ofcourse you can send them to guides and bla bla, but a large part of the playerbase actually hates to log in, just try to get to 70 asap to then having to go search online how to build and play their character in service of those who never really paid them any service by ruining their gameplay to start with by denying them to play their characters in dungeons.
The whole race to 70 to then start to grind like a chinese railroad worker in the 1800's to get scraps and bits is hardly a fun experience.
If cryptic really wanted to make the gameplay more enticing to players they really left out the gameplay experience of new players and the focus really started to hit to the wallet warriors who will buy the HAMSTER they need to run along in the higher regions.
They cater to the more established players and guilds that have enough people to farm all the stuff needed to keep their SH growing.
Small guilds just get shaftedby this whole setup, just like new players also get the finger.
Instead of doing the campaign token HAMSTER they could have made campaigns more fun to complete, but i's easier and more profitable for them to handle it the way these companies Always handle stuff. Put something up for sale to help people circumvent stuff and shortly after you did that you also put a means ingame to get a discount on the same grind.
It's catering to the big wallets but drop just enough crumbs to keep the little people occupied and give them the idea they should be happy and in the meantime the bussiness model tells you this will give some more income.
Sadly they never really factor in the playerbase as a factor but only see raw numbers and percentages. And by the time they see their mistakes we lost quit some good people to other games because everyone get's to a point they wonder why they even care or should bother with this nonsense.
Making your lawn look more green than the neighbours lawn often means you used more HAMSTER to get it there.
You only need to kill enough so that they won't interfere opening the door to next stage.
If you are TR who can run super fast, you don't need to kill much.
I solo with all my capable toons just for the heck of it before mod 12b. No, they don't need to kill most.
We ran by everything non stop and 0 fight until reaching the door. The mob are not exactly runner.
The key is speed that helps you to activate the door before the mob came close enough to make you in combat mode.
The faster you run the least mob will follow (of course, it will not work well if it is not solo or the party is not on the same page).
Some slower but persistent mob actually came in after I killed the final boss.
As for new players not getting the dungeon experience, they aren't anyhow. 3 man dungeon, no required roles. It's just a zerg fest even if you get a group of low lvl players running it. If they didn't do this, you would never get into a dungeon because the old system where they were restricted to low lvl players to queue means finding 5 players, running the same dungeon in a limited range of lvls, with the appropriate roles queuing at the same time of day. Which means it will never pop except possibly on weekends during the euro or us prime time.
I don't think they all zerg it, there was a significant time between the 5 men version and the 3, when it was made 3 people no roles? Mod6 I think
Obviously there were issues, are issues, and will be issues. It was bot infested, and later it wont pop. But there were some suggestions like moving the AD to the higher dungeons (with the tier split) or make a completion of higher tier count towards lower tier too, so there is progression (ofcs with different AD sums) or suggestions to separate the level 70 people altogether in RQ, with also the possibility to make rewards more dynamically balanced with the run times.
Some players in skirmishes do similar as you have described (they wait at the first campfire until the boss has been defeated or is near defeat). Have live streamed/recorded a number of players in MotTH (Master of the Hunt) that start moving as soon as the skirmish is completed, then they make their way to the chest and get rewarded and their score is all zeros...
The thing about the quicker skirmishes is they are often enough completed very quickly so vote kicking sometimes becomes available moments before completion, not to mention having to pull up the menu, type a reason AND get a majority vote which can easily be circumvented if two players are either AFK farming together or one declines or simply doesn't vote...
Something like an AFK timer where a character that doesn't move (actually move around, not just auto-run in the wall) for "x" amount of time gets prompted with a screen where they have to correctly input a button sequence (random) and if rewards are determined by score could help, at least with a system like that (or similar) they would have to move around and participate even if just "minimally" to get rewarded instead of AFK'ing to it. Unfortunately "tone" isn't "easily" conveyed as spoken language. It is a suggestion, more or less difficult depending on the player, their Guild(s)/Alliance(s) and or friend's list. It wasn't meant to come off as easy to do all the time but rather simply a suggested course of action/alternative rather than just letting the queue determine group composition.
A "few" moments to try and find a group can prevent being slowed down or rushed.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Then having said that pugging used to have plenty of low level toons.
BUT NOW you cant even leave what is essentially an epic fail group without penalty.
Example - we were doing Kessels Retreat and the group I was in ploughed into the first two or three mob groups, aggroed all of them and were wiped, except for my toon. They all rezzed and charged back and did exactly the same thing again, twice. Whilst all the time I am shouting in party to SLOW DOWN DO THE MOBS ONE AT A TIME.
After the fourth wipe they began to get it. So its a learning experience and it became a bit more fun AFTER they started to listen. But I have had runs where the newer players just dont listen and EXPECT the other toons to DPS and carry them because....
Dum dum dum thats all they ever learn in levelling dungeons!
And when I can't find a group, I will run as fast as I can to keep up with the 70+ Speed Runners and hope they see I am trying.
EDIT: Fixed Spelling Error
While I understand a low level with poor gear choices might be a major PITA for you, it could also be they really don't know what they are doing and could use some guidance. Like I said, just a thought.
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I think it has already been mentioned that some of these players are doing these dungeons for the first time or first few times and perhaps they want to try to actually experience a little of where they are, kill a few mobs themselves (or at least help out) and pick up drops, open chests and explore a few nooks and crannies before they face the final battle.
I know that is probably a novel and possibly even unpopular concept for some higher level players who have already run those dungeons a dozen times previously, or are only running the dungeons to get the AD's and get out, but I think is is something more people should consider personally.
Whether a player runs through content, slaughtering everything in sight (or not) -vs- sticks with the party and allows the least experienced, poorest equipped player to set the pace and actually experience their environment if they want to, the end result is the same... when you do in the boss at the end, you get your payout... and I don't thing it is too hard to figure out how the other party members want to play it, if any one actually cares to try.
The only variable seems to be is if you are attempting to play without consideration of the other people in the party running ahead expecting everyone to keep up and believing the only purpose for these dungeons is the AD payout at the end - or if you are considerate enough to run the content as an actual party member (the way you are supposed to), letting everyone actually participate in the dungeon content, prior to arriving at that final battle.
It's called "perspective" being able to see the issue from not only your perspective, but also the perspective of the other people in your party.
But on the other hand and just speaking as an observer, when low level players are thrown in with high level players in a leveling dungeon, a lot of times what they experience from those higher level players, is that higher level player 'plowing into mobs and charging ahead', so it might be that their actions were actually the result of their previous experiences and not necessarily completely due to their own lack of proper judgment.
Something else I've observed is sometimes it isn't that other players "don't listen", sometimes it's that other players don't speak the same language. I was recently in a party and the two other people kept talking about something, but what it was I didn't have a clue because I don't speak much German at all but I did remember to say danke (one of the few words I do know) at the end - one of them even complimented me on my use of the German "thank you" when they found I don't actually speak German - just something to keep in mind.
As for the statement that there are some players (new and old) that "expect others to carry them" or just intentionally hang back, let everyone else do the heavy lifting so they can swoop in at the end and get their payout... unfortunately there are undeniably some players like that. During the last CTA event I couldn't even begin to guess how many people I noticed (high and low level characters) who didn't even leave the assembly area or found a quiet little corner to lurk in, until it was all over but they were running full speed toward the chest just as soon as the boss went down.
It takes all kinds ~