I disagree with the bulk of this. I am a HLP across all my characters. Not all of them have yet unlocked the ability to do epics. Campaigns take time.
I will work with the LLPs that are in a dungeon. I have been in a dungeon where a speed-runner wanted to kick a LLP simply because they could not keep up. THAT behavior is wrong.
No, it is not wrong. As long as any player acts within the game's rules, their behavior is not more wrong or right as yours. You don't know the player who started a kick vote nor did you know anything about his motives. Making assumtions about his motives is as right or as wrong as making assumtions why LLPs move slower, are badly equipped (for their level) and so on. The HLP had the same right to start a kick vote as you had the right to decline it.
1
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
Since in the time that it took to close out that dungeon run and queue up for a skirmish WHILE I was still in the dungeon, the player that called the vote to kick switched characters (yes, I checked, thank you) and was in another dungeon.
1+1 does equal 2. They were in a hurry to get to their other character. Beyond that I do not make any judgements as to whether that character was already in a dungeon while we were running and he was trying to kick the slower person.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
A high level dungeon runner, "garbage man" analogy... really?
But you are correct for some HLP’s the only reason they are running random dungeons is to get astral diamonds as quickly and easily as possible, and advanced apologies for having to repeat myself but no on is “forcing” anyone to run random dungeons despite repeated false claims to the contrary.
The analogy was not by accident. Having to run those dungeons for AD is worse than being a garbage man.
I disagree, Cryptic is forcing folks to run the random queue for AD. Where else are you going to get it? Salvage? All those Legendary mounts that drop from lockboxes? Yes most folks are forced to run the random queue if they want AD from the game. Depending on your unlocks the leveling dungeons may be your only realistic choice. Besides, most folks don't want to end up in MSP or FBI in a random group. Before you could just run it solo and no LLPs would be run over in the process.
I disagree with the bulk of this. I am a HLP across all my characters. Not all of them have yet unlocked the ability to do epics. Campaigns take time.
I will work with the LLPs that are in a dungeon. I have been in a dungeon where a speed-runner wanted to kick a LLP simply because they could not keep up. THAT behavior is wrong.
What exactly do you disagree with and why?
Your example is in no way relevant to what i was talking about and cases like that are so rare they aren't even worth discussing. Obviously that behavior is not acceptable but i for example can't think of a SINGLE instance where a vote kick was initiated without a valid reason for at least the past 2 months i've played and this has all been random groups, most of the time in epic dungeons where you would be kicked within 1 minute for not performing if that were possible.
Griefing from experienced HLP's is extremely rare. Botting/trolling/griefing from less experienced/geared players or LLP's however has skyrocketed.
Arguing about this is pointless. Any HLP doing leveling dungeons is there strictly for the AD so do not expect them to care about anything other then that - they do not want to be playing that content but are forced to. I myself fall into this category and the feelings of new players are of no concern to me. I know exactly how long these dungeons take with every possible class, level and gear - if you are taking an unreasonably long time to run through the dungeon i have completely cleared for you or you have the temerity to afk for whatever reason without apologizing when you return then i am either kicking you instantly or leaving and not logging in again. My time is valuable to me, your feelings are not.
Cryptic has killed epic dungeon rewards to the point that running random leveling dungeons on multiple characters 8 times out of 10 produces double the AD reward an on-level epic dungeon will give. Sleepwalk through a leveling dungeon for guaranteed AD or bash your head against a T2 dungeon while cursing the 3 bosses that just died without dropping even a peridot and the chest that never awards more than a ring worth half of what you would have gotten in the leveling dungeon assuming you have the VIP to pay for the key? Who in their right mind would choose option B if option A is on the table?
Don't blame the players for the failures of the company.
Once again in reality no HLP is "forced" to run lower level dungeons, they choose to do so for quick and easy profit - even though for most higher level players there are other options available for them to garner astral diamonds.
It appears as though you statement about the feelings of lower level players being of "no concern" to you is one others share but again this only goes to support my statement the problem isn't in the random queue dungeons - but player behavior. What member of a party doesn't care about the feelings, success or failure of other members of their party?
A player who decides to leave because they are not happy with the performance of other people in the party is fine, I have no problem with that because those actions only effect the person who implements that action...
A player who decides or tries to kick out another party member simply because they are not happy with their performance or play style effects others and that I oppose.
Speaking of players taking an “unreasonably long time to run through a dungeon”, is that time based on your own rate of progression or your determination of how a player should progress? Then it is your expectations and your personal judgment, of what and how other players should be playing with absolutely no fault to the game which states before queing for a random dungeon the estimated time for that content is "30 minutes".
So we are right back to the fact some players like yourself choose to run lower level dungeons despite the claims of being “forced” to. So again it seems we have confirmation, the problem isn't with the game, the dungeon or the company - it is with individual players and their expectations regarding other players and I think your entire posted commentary only goes to support that.
This just keeps going round and round... If a few individuals can't convince a few other individuals that one point of view is better than the other after a couple of weeks arguing about it over pages of forum posts, what makes any of you think every player joining a Random Que could be made to agree with anything?
That's kind of the point
This is one of those situations where who is right and who is wrong doesn't matter near as much as how can it be fixed, and since it clearly cannot, what to do now?
The Twitch Stream indicated they will finally be fixing level scaling to some degree, so the leveling dungeons should be a bit less of a walk in the park for scaled down Supermen
That may go some way toward solving the speed problem, but there is still the emerging problem of those that disconnect or afk as well as the alts that RQ with essentially no gear
If the queue system incorporated "reputation" it could help deal with negative players by making them more likely to be grouped with other negative players ("similar" to the Bad Sports Lobby in GTA V or XBOX Live though with needed changes to help prevent abuse).
Players that are legitimately AND repeatedly vote-kicked for being AFK/disconnected (harassment also), as well as legitimately abandoning RQ's that they willfully queued for and entered get flagged and the account "reputation" rank reduced (loose rank names: Good > "Questionable" > "Needs Improvement" > Negative). CS would monitor repeat "offenders" to verify if the reports are legitimate or just players abusing the report system trying to get the rank of others lowered illegitimately.
Corralling negative players together would not only help increase the positive experiences of the remaining players base in regard to RQ's but will also reduce the proficiency of AFK farmers, bots and intentional disconnections, etc. 3 negative characters in a normal dungeon or 5 in a skirmish won't get very far.
Of course positive behavior would eventually lead to increasing the account reputation.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Once again in reality no HLP is "forced" to run lower level dungeons, they choose to do so for quick and easy profit - even though for most higher level players there are other options available for them to garner astral diamonds.
It appears as though you statement about the feelings of lower level players being of "no concern" to you is one others share but again this only goes to support my statement the problem isn't in the random queue dungeons - but player behavior. What member of a party doesn't care about the feelings, success or failure of other members of their party?
A player who decides to leave because they are not happy with the performance of other people in the party is fine, I have no problem with that because those actions only effect the person who implements that action...
A player who decides or tries to kick out another party member simply because they are not happy with their performance or play style effects others and that I oppose.
Speaking of players taking an “unreasonably long time to run through a dungeon”, is that time based on your own rate of progression or your determination of how a player should progress? Then it is your expectations and your personal judgment, of what and how other players should be playing with absolutely no fault to the game which states before queing for a random dungeon the estimated time for that content is "30 minutes".
So we are right back to the fact some players like yourself choose to run lower level dungeons despite the claims of being “forced” to. So again it seems we have confirmation, the problem isn't with the game, the dungeon or the company - it is with individual players and their expectations regarding other players and I think your entire posted commentary only goes to support that.
Do i really need to write an essay about how nothing you just wrote is correct? Are you seriously trying to imply that the sad state of the game isn't entirely Cryptic's fault because of the moronic decisions they make in order to pursue stupid goals that no one wants to see achieved? I'm guessing you don't believe that human beings act the way they do based on the incentives they are offered and the goals they are pursuing, both in general and towards each other.
The player base is not to blame for anything that stems from Cryptic's dumb decisions and there are plenty of those. All of us HLP's or LLP's alike ARE FORCED to do plenty of things we don't want, including playing content we don't want to play with people we don't want to play with, and to suggest otherwise is laughable at best. It's no *choice* when the choice is do what you want,get frustrated and end up quitting or do what we tell you if you want to progress because we know what's best for you.
There is NO PROBLEM with player behavior and the non-existent problem becomes even more non-existent the higher you climb the skill/gear/experience ladder. If there was i wouldn't be playing for over a year now after starting from scratch and experience ZERO party kicks or verbal abuse from any of my teammates directed at me in what, several thousand random group content runs? Nor could i count on one hand the amount of times such abusive behavior was directed at someone else FOR NO REASON.
I will respond directly to one thing you said which i find so stupid i almost had a stroke. Did you seriously suggest that party members should not be judging your performance or play style? Would it be a stretch for me to believe that you think there should be no punishment for people that fail to perform their job? I sincerely hope that no one i ever play with has that mind set but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people do - no wonder why i'm seeing more and more trolling and abuse in my parties and funnily enough, never from those toxic HLP's that you are blaming for whatever it is that you are blaming them for.
Once again in reality no HLP is "forced" to run lower level dungeons, they choose to do so for quick and easy profit - even though for most higher level players there are other options available for them to garner astral diamonds.
It appears as though you statement about the feelings of lower level players being of "no concern" to you is one others share but again this only goes to support my statement the problem isn't in the random queue dungeons - but player behavior. What member of a party doesn't care about the feelings, success or failure of other members of their party?
A player who decides to leave because they are not happy with the performance of other people in the party is fine, I have no problem with that because those actions only effect the person who implements that action...
A player who decides or tries to kick out another party member simply because they are not happy with their performance or play style effects others and that I oppose.
Speaking of players taking an “unreasonably long time to run through a dungeon”, is that time based on your own rate of progression or your determination of how a player should progress? Then it is your expectations and your personal judgment, of what and how other players should be playing with absolutely no fault to the game which states before queing for a random dungeon the estimated time for that content is "30 minutes".
So we are right back to the fact some players like yourself choose to run lower level dungeons despite the claims of being “forced” to. So again it seems we have confirmation, the problem isn't with the game, the dungeon or the company - it is with individual players and their expectations regarding other players and I think your entire posted commentary only goes to support that.
Do i really need to write an essay about how nothing you just wrote is correct? Are you seriously trying to imply that the sad state of the game isn't entirely Cryptic's fault because of the moronic decisions they make in order to pursue stupid goals that no one wants to see achieved? I'm guessing you don't believe that human beings act the way they do based on the incentives they are offered and the goals they are pursuing, both in general and towards each other.
The player base is not to blame for anything that stems from Cryptic's dumb decisions and there are plenty of those. All of us HLP's or LLP's alike ARE FORCED to do plenty of things we don't want, including playing content we don't want to play with people we don't want to play with, and to suggest otherwise is laughable at best. It's no *choice* when the choice is do what you want,get frustrated and end up quitting or do what we tell you if you want to progress because we know what's best for you.
There is NO PROBLEM with player behavior and the non-existent problem becomes even more non-existent the higher you climb the skill/gear/experience ladder. If there was i wouldn't be playing for over a year now after starting from scratch and experience ZERO party kicks or verbal abuse from any of my teammates directed at me in what, several thousand random group content runs? Nor could i count on one hand the amount of times such abusive behavior was directed at someone else FOR NO REASON.
I will respond directly to one thing you said which i find so stupid i almost had a stroke. Did you seriously suggest that party members should not be judging your performance or play style? Would it be a stretch for me to believe that you think there should be no punishment for people that fail to perform their job? I sincerely hope that no one i ever play with has that mind set but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people do - no wonder why i'm seeing more and more trolling and abuse in my parties and funnily enough, never from those toxic HLP's that you are blaming for whatever it is that you are blaming them for.
While you claim the game is in a "sad state" and although you seem to think you have the authority to speak for everyone else playing the game – you don’t.
You disingenuously claiming “no one wants to see those stupid goals achieved” and again even though you seem to think you speak for every other player – you don’t.
You double down on your claim that people are being “forced” to run random dungeons, and although that may be your personal opinion or even the opinion of some other players - I can’t think of a single instance where that is true…
People aren’t “forced” to buy better gear, they want to run more challenging content where that gear becomes necessary but no one, not cryptic, not the game, not other players are forcing them to run that content… it’s what they want to do.
I’ve been playing Neverwinter since it was brand new, since it first came out and I can tell you from my personal experience what I believe… Much of the negative attitude regarding the game appears to come from higher level players who have been in the game less than a year or two – who have for all practical purposes ignored much of the actual game content and bought their way up to better gear by repeatedly running content just to get astral diamonds.
That of course is their choice and their right – but just because that his how they choose to play the that doesn’t mean every other player has to play the same way, even if it is an inconvenience for those who keep trying to convince people they are being "forced" to put up with content they don't like or players who don't meet their personal expectations.
Play the game the way you choose to – and allow other players to do the same…
Not worth the time or effort to address any of the vague non sense you wrote. You don't agree with my opinion and want to dismiss it fine, have fun with your are brown nosing for Cryptic and blaming everything on players. You sound exactly like the type of person that would invite all the negativity you claim exists even though you did a pretty stellar job at virtue signaling. Funny how i, presumably the HAMSTER in this situation, never witness any griefing of any kind from the same people you demonize and only witness it from the ones you claim are being mistreated by them. I'm sure this has nothing to do with pretentious holier than thou whining versus realism.
For the record, i've been playing on and off since Open Beta and have achieved BIS status on 3 separate occasions starting from scratch, currently working on number 4. At no time during this period have i ever held the opinion that this community on any level from bottom to top is too rude, if anything a lot of these people are some of the softest and cringe inducing care bears i have ever played with.
I'm not responding to you again, feel free to continue spinning.
As a tank, it is your job to be the first one to engage enemies, correct? You can accomplish this by requiring others to slow down, or by speeding yourself up
Dungeons are completed by dealing damage and buffing party members to do more damage, and the tank soaks up the incoming damage so party meme era can spend less time/stats on healing and more on buffing/debuffing and dps... this is all about going faster
Your opinions seem counter to the point of running a dungeon
Additionally, the majority of your QM/DH/etc earnings probably come from soloing campaigns and doing your dailies, etc...
You should probably take a close look at the actual value to your guild of the gems you are collecting in dungeons and compare to the value produced for your team by speeding up so they don’t have to wait on you or do without your help
This thread is not longer of value. It has become a circular argument.
Bottom line: the RQ as it is today is bad for the game and clearly failed to address the various needs of the player base. They need to reopen AD runs to private queues. Allow those who wish to explore to do so, allow those who wish to speed run to the end for the AD to do so, and stop the chaos that is the RQ today.
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
This thread appears to have ran it's course. Please know that the dev team are continuing to monitor the feedback and usage of the Random Queue system. Thank you.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
1+1 does equal 2. They were in a hurry to get to their other character. Beyond that I do not make any judgements as to whether that character was already in a dungeon while we were running and he was trying to kick the slower person.
I disagree, Cryptic is forcing folks to run the random queue for AD. Where else are you going to get it? Salvage? All those Legendary mounts that drop from lockboxes? Yes most folks are forced to run the random queue if they want AD from the game. Depending on your unlocks the leveling dungeons may be your only realistic choice. Besides, most folks don't want to end up in MSP or FBI in a random group. Before you could just run it solo and no LLPs would be run over in the process.
Your example is in no way relevant to what i was talking about and cases like that are so rare they aren't even worth discussing. Obviously that behavior is not acceptable but i for example can't think of a SINGLE instance where a vote kick was initiated without a valid reason for at least the past 2 months i've played and this has all been random groups, most of the time in epic dungeons where you would be kicked within 1 minute for not performing if that were possible.
Griefing from experienced HLP's is extremely rare. Botting/trolling/griefing from less experienced/geared players or LLP's however has skyrocketed.
It appears as though you statement about the feelings of lower level players being of "no concern" to you is one others share but again this only goes to support my statement the problem isn't in the random queue dungeons - but player behavior. What member of a party doesn't care about the feelings, success or failure of other members of their party?
A player who decides to leave because they are not happy with the performance of other people in the party is fine, I have no problem with that because those actions only effect the person who implements that action...
A player who decides or tries to kick out another party member simply because they are not happy with their performance or play style effects others and that I oppose.
Speaking of players taking an “unreasonably long time to run through a dungeon”, is that time based on your own rate of progression or your determination of how a player should progress? Then it is your expectations and your personal judgment, of what and how other players should be playing with absolutely no fault to the game which states before queing for a random dungeon the estimated time for that content is "30 minutes".
So we are right back to the fact some players like yourself choose to run lower level dungeons despite the claims of being “forced” to. So again it seems we have confirmation, the problem isn't with the game, the dungeon or the company - it is with individual players and their expectations regarding other players and I think your entire posted commentary only goes to support that.
That's kind of the point
This is one of those situations where who is right and who is wrong doesn't matter near as much as how can it be fixed, and since it clearly cannot, what to do now?
The Twitch Stream indicated they will finally be fixing level scaling to some degree, so the leveling dungeons should be a bit less of a walk in the park for scaled down Supermen
That may go some way toward solving the speed problem, but there is still the emerging problem of those that disconnect or afk as well as the alts that RQ with essentially no gear
Players that are legitimately AND repeatedly vote-kicked for being AFK/disconnected (harassment also), as well as legitimately abandoning RQ's that they willfully queued for and entered get flagged and the account "reputation" rank reduced (loose rank names: Good > "Questionable" > "Needs Improvement" > Negative). CS would monitor repeat "offenders" to verify if the reports are legitimate or just players abusing the report system trying to get the rank of others lowered illegitimately.
Corralling negative players together would not only help increase the positive experiences of the remaining players base in regard to RQ's but will also reduce the proficiency of AFK farmers, bots and intentional disconnections, etc. 3 negative characters in a normal dungeon or 5 in a skirmish won't get very far.
Of course positive behavior would eventually lead to increasing the account reputation.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The player base is not to blame for anything that stems from Cryptic's dumb decisions and there are plenty of those. All of us HLP's or LLP's alike ARE FORCED to do plenty of things we don't want, including playing content we don't want to play with people we don't want to play with, and to suggest otherwise is laughable at best. It's no *choice* when the choice is do what you want,get frustrated and end up quitting or do what we tell you if you want to progress because we know what's best for you.
There is NO PROBLEM with player behavior and the non-existent problem becomes even more non-existent the higher you climb the skill/gear/experience ladder. If there was i wouldn't be playing for over a year now after starting from scratch and experience ZERO party kicks or verbal abuse from any of my teammates directed at me in what, several thousand random group content runs? Nor could i count on one hand the amount of times such abusive behavior was directed at someone else FOR NO REASON.
I will respond directly to one thing you said which i find so stupid i almost had a stroke. Did you seriously suggest that party members should not be judging your performance or play style? Would it be a stretch for me to believe that you think there should be no punishment for people that fail to perform their job? I sincerely hope that no one i ever play with has that mind set but it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people do - no wonder why i'm seeing more and more trolling and abuse in my parties and funnily enough, never from those toxic HLP's that you are blaming for whatever it is that you are blaming them for.
You disingenuously claiming “no one wants to see those stupid goals achieved” and again even though you seem to think you speak for every other player – you don’t.
You double down on your claim that people are being “forced” to run random dungeons, and although that may be your personal opinion or even the opinion of some other players - I can’t think of a single instance where that is true…
People aren’t “forced” to buy better gear, they want to run more challenging content where that gear becomes necessary but no one, not cryptic, not the game, not other players are forcing them to run that content… it’s what they want to do.
I’ve been playing Neverwinter since it was brand new, since it first came out and I can tell you from my personal experience what I believe… Much of the negative attitude regarding the game appears to come from higher level players who have been in the game less than a year or two – who have for all practical purposes ignored much of the actual game content and bought their way up to better gear by repeatedly running content just to get astral diamonds.
That of course is their choice and their right – but just because that his how they choose to play the that doesn’t mean every other player has to play the same way, even if it is an inconvenience for those who keep trying to convince people they are being "forced" to put up with content they don't like or players who don't meet their personal expectations.
Play the game the way you choose to – and allow other players to do the same…
Not worth the time or effort to address any of the vague non sense you wrote. You don't agree with my opinion and want to dismiss it fine, have fun with your are brown nosing for Cryptic and blaming everything on players. You sound exactly like the type of person that would invite all the negativity you claim exists even though you did a pretty stellar job at virtue signaling. Funny how i, presumably the HAMSTER in this situation, never witness any griefing of any kind from the same people you demonize and only witness it from the ones you claim are being mistreated by them. I'm sure this has nothing to do with pretentious holier than thou whining versus realism.
For the record, i've been playing on and off since Open Beta and have achieved BIS status on 3 separate occasions starting from scratch, currently working on number 4. At no time during this period have i ever held the opinion that this community on any level from bottom to top is too rude, if anything a lot of these people are some of the softest and cringe inducing care bears i have ever played with.
I'm not responding to you again, feel free to continue spinning.
A couple points here:
As a tank, it is your job to be the first one to engage enemies, correct? You can accomplish this by requiring others to slow down, or by speeding yourself up
Dungeons are completed by dealing damage and buffing party members to do more damage, and the tank soaks up the incoming damage so party meme era can spend less time/stats on healing and more on buffing/debuffing and dps... this is all about going faster
Your opinions seem counter to the point of running a dungeon
Additionally, the majority of your QM/DH/etc earnings probably come from soloing campaigns and doing your dailies, etc...
You should probably take a close look at the actual value to your guild of the gems you are collecting in dungeons and compare to the value produced for your team by speeding up so they don’t have to wait on you or do without your help
Bottom line: the RQ as it is today is bad for the game and clearly failed to address the various needs of the player base. They need to reopen AD runs to private queues. Allow those who wish to explore to do so, allow those who wish to speed run to the end for the AD to do so, and stop the chaos that is the RQ today.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!