Random Dungeon - Low level toon booted from the party... in the freak'n Cloak Tower!

1246710

Comments

  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    two low level characters. *cut text*

    When they finally reached the last boss, they voted me out. How nice of them. ;)

    Yep, it's not just higher level players with the "tomfoolery".
    chidion said:

    It's called "perspective" being able to see the issue from not only your perspective, but also the perspective of the other people in your party.

    It goes BOTH ways...

    If you take the "perspective" route, you STILL have to be able to see things from multiple perspectives, you can't state "look at things from all sides" and then only look at things from one...

    If lower level players see higher level players steamrolling through the run yet still want to "explore" and take their time that is their choice though they could simply keep up as best they can and go exploring with a like minded group and or solo queue and brave it alone without effecting anyone else...
    chidion said:


    Your percieved sarcasm aside, perhaps the "two low level characters" didn't appreciate someone "clearing the whole place out - killing every single enemy" because they were actually there to play the content (the way it is supposed to be played), not just run to the end game to pick up the AD reward at the end...

    The lower level players vote kicking that person at the END for whatever reason(s) at the END of the run was inconsiderate and selfish, again, it's not just higher level players imposing their will on others, it goes the other way as well.

    As players reach higher ilvls lower content becomes easier and repeat runs lose their "luster" over time (exploring, opening chests, etc.) so what used to take them longer and or the wanted to "explore" diminishes. For the most part a level 70 player isn't still going to be exploring Cloak Tower, etc., once you've explored it once and it becomes a part of your memory, the "magic" is pretty much gone (randomizing dungeon layouts could help make the experience last longer and also hinder bots as well).

    As a result higher level players for the most part do not want to spend extra time waiting on "explorer's" though they could circumvent having to do so by forming a group prior to RQ'ing, a simple yet effective solution instead of sticking one's hand in the fire and complaining about being burned.

    Lower level players that want to "explore" can also form their own groups prior to RQ'ing, their task of forming groups can be made more difficult if they have yet to unlock chat and or there is a language barrier though there are in-game functions (interact menu on other players), voice chat, etc. that can make it easier (we have our Alliance/Guild site in multiple languages to reach more players).

    BOTH higher and lower level players often enough play without consideration of the other "group" though surprisingly and continuously put themselves in unfavorable positions to be faced with the other group by RQ'ing alone, again, if you RQ alone you put yourself in a position to be teamed with a "mixed" group.

    After RQ'ing alone:
    Highers - "Keep up"
    Lowers - "Slow down"

    --+-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+--

    There are pretty much 3 types of "players":
    - Lower level (tend to move slower)
    - Higher level (tend to speed run)
    - Leechers (tend to consciously under perform and benefit from the effort of others).

    The third type (leechers) often enough can masquerade and or resemble the first type (lower level) as well as encourage negative conceptions of lower level players. Arguably if the third type can be effectively handled, that much negative play could be substantially reduced from the experience of the other types of players and they themselves can shape the environment in which they play to improve it further.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I think some people seem to have lost sight of, or appear indifferent to the original premise of this thread.

    A low level, less experienced player had to contend with two, more experienced players speed running through the Cloak Tower, leaving behind mobs for him (forgive the presumption) to contend with on his own and presumably because he wasn't able to keep up with them they kicked him out of the queue...

    However with less than a dozen posts we begin to have some complaining about low level or new players are HAMSTER up their dungeon run experience.

    I still contend, as I did from the beginning, that it isn't the fault of the random queue, the content is queued as a "party" function and it should be run by a party, with higher level players giving lower level players the benefit of their experience, not as a "quick easy" solo quest just because a player (or two) can.

    Someone said it is not their responsibility to "baby sit" low level players - no it isn't - but since the queue is for a party and not solo, it is a responsibility to act as a member of a party and not some solo juggernaut and just presume everyone else in the party will be OK with it... at least that's my opinion.
    Post edited by dionchi on
    DD~
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    The "original premise" is not the only situation that happens, it is more expansive than that. Only focusing on that forces bias into the situation as a whole (as if only high level players can be an issue). A number of higher level players encounter newer players that soon quit and or leechers (who are often enough lower level characters) meaning if they see lower level characters and assume they are soon to be quitters/leechers (even if they actually aren't) it is not without reason (not stating that it is ok for them to assume negatively and treat them as such).

    With the various conversations had with players the recurring sentiment is that higher level players want lower level players to keep up and lower level players want higher level players to slow down though when both are asked about forming a party before RQ'ing they pretty much respond the same, "it takes too long". That "attitude" helps solidify a negative experience when both groups are grouped together and the resulting group (higher + lower players) having inherent dissonance.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    The "original premise" is not the only situation that happens, it is more expansive than that. Only focusing on that forces bias into the situation as a whole (as if only high level players can be an issue). A number of higher level players encounter newer players that soon quit and or leechers (who are often enough lower level characters) meaning if they see lower level characters and assume they are soon to be quitters/leechers (even if they actually aren't) it is not without reason (not stating that it is ok for them to assume negatively and treat them as such).

    With the various conversations had with players the recurring sentiment is that higher level players want lower level players to keep up and lower level players want higher level players to slow down though when both are asked about forming a party before RQ'ing they pretty much respond the same, "it takes too long". That "attitude" helps solidify a negative experience when both groups are grouped together and the resulting group (higher + lower players) having inherent dissonance.

    The "original premise" that started this conversation (that a level appropriate toon was kicked from a leveling dungeon) doesn't add any additional bias to the situation that doesn't exist once you change the topic to end-game toon's right to kick leveling characters from leveling dungeons. Which should never happen, BTW. A lvl 70 toon in a leveling dungeon should have the vote-kick option disabled. Each player has their perspective, but one perspective is valid because they are playing content designed for them, and one players perspective is less valid, because they are playing content that was not designed for them.

    Your assumption that all low-level players are leechers, or quitters, is just that... your assumption. As such, your assumption is not reality, and has no place in this discussion. If you didn't have a gaming computer, & the newest, shiniest intra-webz connection, and were forced to wait a minute or two for the content to load, by which time your "team" is already fighting the first boss, what are your odds of catching them up? Does that make you a leecher? If you were forced to run group content without your group... how many attempts, and temporary deaths, would you suffer through before you gave up? Does that make you a quitter?

    You can want low-level players to keep up with end-game toons all day long. Your desires are not reality, and have no place in this discussion. leveling toons don't have the stats that a lvl 70 toon does. Or the movement bonuses that come with them. Leveling toons don't have the gears that lvl 70 toons do. Or the movement bonuses tat come with them. Leveling toons don't have ANY boons... or the movement bonuses that come with them. But, it is a free country. You can continue to want low-level toons to keep up with the end-gamers. And you can continue to be disappointed.

  • docsnuggles#6615
    docsnuggles#6615 Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    I just keep cjecking levels of party members and if any has a level that makes the dungeon challenging to them I adjust my speed and gameplay,
    Cryptic might not have an issue with messing up lower level characters dungeon experience. I do so I take the extra minutes it takes to complete the dungeon and don't go all bazooka on the lower lvl but just blame Cryptic once again.
  • holygraell#9965
    holygraell#9965 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I was talking to my husband earlier about this issue. I just started playing this particular game for the first time less than two weeks ago. I'm been fairly disheartened on the subject of random dungeons. I can, and do, try to make groups that are level appropriate for dungeon content. However, as it's been noted repeatedly, we all MUST do these stupid RQ's in order to get our much needed AD and to get stuff to donate to guild (if guild can take the donation -.- ). Unless of course you want to just buy everything apparently. (But that's another commentary on the gaming industry in general and entirely... ;P) I do regret when my first time through a dungeon (as has happened twice now) is in an RD queue, since I couldn't find anyone else and needed to get it done for zone achievements (which I enjoy getting) before I completely out-leveled it. It's nice for us lowbies who have just started and are actually using the content to get better gear, to actually be able to do so by stopping to loot, to be able to learn to work in groups, and to actually have some fun, rather than just running desperately behind speed boosted 70's who are SO done with these lower leveling dungeons that they've done a hundred times. And yeah, there's been shade thrown at me, fortunately only once. I try not to let it get to me, but the single overall feel I have so far for this game is that, if you're not 70 and you're doing an RQ you can ... what is the term I've seen here? HAMSTER right the HAMSTER off. It kind of sucks.

    My personal wish is for an RQ based on level with varying levels of AD rewards. levels 15-30, 31-49, 50-69, newbie 70's, etc. for an example, with massive AD rewards going to newbie 70's and fewer but still a good number to each other level bracket. Something a little more fair to all levels. As it stands it's not fair to anyone at all. And that really stinks. Anyway, this is definitely a poorly implemented idea, and even probably a bad idea in general from the dev team. I'd love to see them admit that it just isn't working and that no one is happy with this mess and to fix it somehow. Otherwise, the game is fun, although I do wish (and I'm probably alone in this, I know) that I didn't out level even the questing zones so quickly.

    I will leave a couple very simple tips for any newbies like myself who may not have caught onto it... the little loot sacks on the floor are color coded as to what level of equipment/loot is in them -- blue for blue armor for example. If you need upgrades, stop long enough to grab those blue-glowing sacks (I know.. but I'm generally playing with sleep deprivation, so it took me two days to notice- D'oh! lol). Not sure if there's a color blind option in the graphics to help those with color vision issues. Leave the coins, as there's not enough to make it worthwhile when split between all in dungeon. You'll make more gold from selling loot elsewhere. Most importantly, after dungeon is done, chances are that there's lots of treasure chests and asset loot (thievery bags, religion altars, etc) to be had still as well as some mobs that are trash and should be fairly easy for one or two at level folks to carefully pull and deal with even when they're in larger numbers. Simply stay in the dungeon, explore it as you want to, find all the stuff (like the 6 treasure chest key items in Cloak Tower that you can use in end chamber for more crafting stuff and green loot) and take your time doing whatever you want to do. You do not have to leave. If you find the mobs left behind too difficult, go out and try again calling for at level folks to come dungeon crawl with you. Chances are good there will eventually be enough folks online that someone else will go. And as others have mentioned, try to send a party message from start to let folks know you need to stop for loot, will be slower, will try your best to keep up and not make it too long for the others. Also try to remember the whole language barrier thing as well. The 70's may not be speaking English. Let's just all try to be nice hamsters and use a little more patience. (And 70's -- If you could actually pop all those traps for us lower folks, it'd help us to keep our run speed up and not be as slowed down! ;D Otherwise we have to stop occasionally if we've been clumsy in our efforts to keep up, to use a kit to remove the run speed slowdown. Believe me, the majority of us do not want to slow you down, and feel just as frustrated as you do.)
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    The "original premise" is not the only situation that happens, it is more expansive than that. Only focusing on that forces bias into the situation as a whole (as if only high level players can be an issue). A number of higher level players encounter newer players that soon quit and or leechers (who are often enough lower level characters) meaning if they see lower level characters and assume they are soon to be quitters/leechers (even if they actually aren't) it is not without reason (not stating that it is ok for them to assume negatively and treat them as such).

    With the various conversations had with players the recurring sentiment is that higher level players want lower level players to keep up and lower level players want higher level players to slow down though when both are asked about forming a party before RQ'ing they pretty much respond the same, "it takes too long". That "attitude" helps solidify a negative experience when both groups are grouped together and the resulting group (higher + lower players) having inherent dissonance.

    Actually you're right the original premise of this thread isn't the only situation that happens, however it is the stated purpose of THIS thread and comments diverting from that premise only serves to distract from the original poster's intent and purpose for publishing this thread, if I may be so blunt.

    If higher level players want to post about lower level players HAMSTER up their runs for profit, perhaps they would be better served if someone started their own thread on that topic, instead of trying to highjack this one...

    Still, at the risk of being repetitive, these dungeons are queued for a PARTY, a player(s) running ahead and leaving other party members behind is not the normal function of a "party", even if they do bother to kill all the mobs along the way - unless the soul intent is to get to the chest of diamonds at the end, which clearly is not the soul purpose for everyone running random queue dungeons.

    Kicking a party member out of the queue who may be struggling or interested in doing something other than just going for that chest of diamonds at the end, or otherwise not playing as the other party members would prefer is likewise not the normal function of a "party".

    To operate as a party - a group - everyone should be allowed to participate in the content to the extent of their abilities and interests and when those abilities and interests do not coincide, compromises should be allowed for.

    Now clearly most new and low level players do not have the ability to "one shot" mobs, nor can they speed run like a more advanced players, even if they wanted to, so the higher level players should be willing to make allowances for the lower level, less experienced players to participate as well, they still get their astral diamond payout at the end - even if it does take a little longer to get it... it's not only common sense I believe it's usually considered to be common courtesy.
    DD~
  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I have not read all the posts, but in case it has not mentioned already, this is not just problem for the leveling dungeons, this is a problem for a lot of the epic dungeons as well. I have seen this happen a lot in dungeons like Valindra where a new player does not know what to do and then they are stuck with two gelantinous cubes alone that end up killing them, or sprinting to the first/second boss in Spider Temple and leaving some pour soul to killed by the mob.

    Lets be honest here, the main reason the selfish sprinters do what they do is to win paingiver, this is their only really challenge and motivation to run dungeons. Even the most selfish inconsiderate player will be aware of the fact that leaving players behind to tackle enemies solo means that it just takes longer for everyone to get to boss fight (those that need all members together first to enter it), so this argument that they are trying to do faster farming is nonsense.

    The question is what to do about this is not easy though, ideally one can kick these kind of players, but Cryptic needs to come up with some kind of game mechanism that punishes the sprinters, if not they are just going to have more players quitting. And who would blame them, nobody started playing this game with the notion that this is how the dungeons were going to be.
  • niadan
    niadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    Ad a reward for actually clearing the dungeon...problem solved.
  • oldtimer#7525
    oldtimer#7525 Member Posts: 141 Arc User

    I have not read all the posts, but in case it has not mentioned already, this is not just problem for the leveling dungeons, this is a problem for a lot of the epic dungeons as well. I have seen this happen a lot in dungeons like Valindra where a new player does not know what to do and then they are stuck with two gelantinous cubes alone that end up killing them, or sprinting to the first/second boss in Spider Temple and leaving some pour soul to killed by the mob.

    Lets be honest here, the main reason the selfish sprinters do what they do is to win paingiver, this is their only really challenge and motivation to run dungeons. Even the most selfish inconsiderate player will be aware of the fact that leaving players behind to tackle enemies solo means that it just takes longer for everyone to get to boss fight (those that need all members together first to enter it), so this argument that they are trying to do faster farming is nonsense.

    The question is what to do about this is not easy though, ideally one can kick these kind of players, but Cryptic needs to come up with some kind of game mechanism that punishes the sprinters, if not they are just going to have more players quitting. And who would blame them, nobody started playing this game with the notion that this is how the dungeons were going to be.

    Bunch of BS with a horrendously dumb suggestion at the end.

    This is an MMO and you play with other human beings. By using random queue or pug queue you are playing group content with random people in a random group so it is your responsibility to be on par with what is expected from a player in a random group. What is expected from a player in a random group is to contribute to the best of their characters ability to make the run as quick,efficient and painless as it can possibly be with that particular group - this means knowing the content and how it is run, having a decently strong character and knowing how to play it already. Random and pug queue is FOR FARMING, random and pug queue IS NOT FOR TEACHING, random and pug queue IS NOT FOR PLAYING IN ANY WAY that hinders the group and slows the run down. Premade farming groups have even higher standards so don't even try to whine about this.

    The vast majority of the player base, myself included, views group content as nothing more than a means to earn AD which is the only way to achieve the one thing that matters in MMOs - character progression. Players will play what is most efficient in the most efficient possible way, the lucky ones will only play full private groups but most cannot do so so they will use public queues instead. If you want to play in a way that is different then the vast majority then you SHOULD NOT be using public queue, go form your own party or join a guild that has players who like to play like you do.

    And yes i know Random Queue being the only source of bonus AD forces you to play with random people and i hate it with a passion but still, it is up to YOU to adapt to how the game is played, put in the work to form a party that will not play like most people would or you could simply not play the game or the particular content or content type. Your feelings and opinions don't matter - most people want to farm as fast as possible in public groups, if you don't then don't use public queues and don't group with them.
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User

    Your assumption that all low-level players are leechers, or quitters, is just that... your assumption. As such, your assumption is not reality, and has no place in this discussion.

    Where was that assumption made? What was stated is pre-grouping to help eliminate such events, it's an option though many queue solo and continue to encounter the same situations over and over.

    There ARE lower level players in lower level content that plant themselves at the campfire and move as soon as the queue is completed/about to be and or exhibit similar, non-productive behavior if anyone states that it doesn't happen is not relaying the truth. If you have often enough witnessed higher level characters doing the same things please address it, at times it does happen, though arguably not nearly as much. The topic wasn't "changed", the other end of the spectrum was addressed because it happens the other way(s) around as well, leaving out other things that happens is bias within itself.

    Plenty of players that have been helped pretty much every step of the way quit, have personally helped a number of them which is part of the reason the scenario was given. Some higher level players have gone through it as well and choose not to do it anymore/as much, some don't wan to go through it at all.

    Removing the vote kick option for higher level players will prevent them from trying to remove characters that camp until the end and or intentionally hang behind or go AFK and don't return, how would that even remotely be considerate of negative behavior such as that...

    The bias is evident, the case is being made that seemingly only higher level players exhibit negative behavior in lower level content which clearly isn't true. Does it happen more or less for either, who knows. Since for the most part players do not pre-form groups before queuing (for whatever reason(s)) the resulting "mixed" groups encounter the cross-will imposing therefore something else has to change or it will continue...

    Plenty of times have personally witnessed players (lower level) in CT, MotH, DL, etc. that camp until the end/completion, follow behind and do "zeros" or provide extremely low input, higher level players doing the same, not so much... Does it happen for both, pretty sure it does but for one it seems to happens a lot more... Have also witnessed 12k+ ilvl characters get out DPS'ed by a considerable margin by a 7-8k character as if were the ilvls were the other way around, even in those cases effort is still being made (even though it could be better) and is quite different from a lower level character intentionally hanging back... Again BOTH do negative things, not just one.

    For the most part "we" group before queuing which pretty much eliminates unwanted events, it worked way back when and continues to work now. If queuing alone/not with a full group we deal with what comes from it and don't complain because we willingly chose not to go with a course of action that would prevent such unwanted situations, not everyone does the same which remains their choice but also the results of the queue forming the party.


    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    Actually you're right the original premise of this thread isn't the only situation that happens, however it is the stated purpose of THIS thread and comments diverting from that premise only serves to distract from the original poster's intent and purpose for publishing this thread

    So state that higher level players essentially are the sole ones doing the dirt and a solution be formed based only on one side... Advocate for higher level players to have vote kick disabled, punishment for running ahead, lower rewards, etc.... Overlook the lower level players that leech and or vote kick higher level players... oh ok...

    All of those situations (as well as others) are intertwined, simply trying to "fix" one portion without considering the others will essentially further the negative effects.

    General
    --+-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+--
    A "simple solution" would be for lower level players to be able to "tick" a box that would queue them with other characters around their level:

    Cloak Tower (12-18)
    Cragmire Crypts (19-35)
    Gray Wolf Den (36-39)
    Pirate King's Retreat (40-43)
    The Frozen Heart (44-46)
    Spellplague Caverns (47-49)
    Temple of the Spider (50-53)
    Caverns of Karrundax (54-60)

    Once they reach the level for the next normal dungeon they can no longer utilize the "tick" function for the lower ones, with something like that lower level players will be free from higher level players at least until they out level a particular dungeon and will be able to get the experience they claim to want at level.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited November 2017



    So state that higher level players essentially are the sole ones doing the dirt and a solution be formed based only on one side... Advocate for higher level players to have vote kick disabled, punishment for running ahead, lower rewards, etc.... Overlook the lower level players that leech and or vote kick higher level players... oh ok...

    All of those situations (as well as others) are intertwined, simply trying to "fix" one portion without considering the others will essentially further the negative effects.
    -snip-
    A "simple solution" would be for lower level players to be able to "tick" a box that would queue them with other characters around their level:

    Ah so you appear to confirm that the premise of this thread was about high level players "doing the dirt" to a lower level player.

    Thank you.

    And no one advocated for lower level players to kick or punish higher level players and no one mentioned anything about letting any player - regardless of level - "leech" off of other party members. You seem willing to call someone when you think they put words in your mouth so-to-speak, but apparently don't recognize it when you appear to do the same thing.

    Actually I can't say what you suggest would be a "simple solution" having lower level players (or higher level players) queue with other players of a certain level, I'm not a game programmer...

    Still, to me the simplist solution would be for people to decide on their own to run "party" queued content as a "party" instead of a solo speed runner or a stay behind lagger, no game programming necessary, (just personal mental reprogramming).



    If this is the case then the whine by the original poster is just that, a whine.

    His whine should be kept to the limited scope he states and not expanded upon: in one dungeon he was kicked for reasons we dont know as the two people who kicked him never posted. We only have his side of what went on and cannot, therefore, make any definitive judgements as to right or wrong.

    The subject matter brought up by the original poster not a major problem as it is very rare for two characters to run by all the monsters in the cloak tower. No one else has posted saying this happened to them and this thread has been up for twenty two days now.

    This is a non-issue.

    I can't say the original poster wasn't "whining" as you so artfully put it, I have no idea about the mental state or true purpose of the original poster other than the words he posted and my opinion they had a valid complaint.

    But if that indeed is the case, aren't all the subsequent 'complaints' by people unhappy with how lower level players navigate those dungeons also just disgruntled "whines"?

    Or is there some point where a higher level player's statements and opinions deserve more consideration than a lower level players?

    The subject matter of a person getting kicked out of a dungeon does thankfully seem to be a non to common occurrence, but the other mentioned matter of some players running ahead and some even leaving mobs to contend with seems to be an all too common occurrence.

    Players even openly admit to speed running in dungeons for various reasons and if you will read back, there have been a few of the previous posts where people have said this is problem they too experienced. I have personally witnessed people trying to run out ahead in almost every dungeon I've participated in that has a lower geared, less experienced player in it, sometimes that slower player is even my level 70 character with rank 5 dark enchantments (all I've been able to pick up or refine so far) in utility slots.

    I do however agree with your statement about we should have: "kept to the limited scope he states and not expanded upon {or diverted from it}". The original poster stated they were kicked from a dungeon by 'higher level players who ran ahead, left mobs for them to contend with and then (they presume) were kicked before they reached the boss gate'. Those are clearly stated facts evidenced in the original thread post.


    This is a non-issue.

    And it does seem to be an issue, maybe not for you, but for the person who posted this thread and others who have stated they too have unhappily been in parties where someone runs ahead, leaves mobs to contend with and kicks them out because their abilities were considered sub-par... I'll not so easily disregard their statements and opinions, but I will offer my personal opinion that thankfully it does not seem to be a huge issue for the majority of players.

    I also agree that we only read one side of the issue - unless you are responding as one of the people who may have been responsible for kicking them out - but it is the side of the person who started this thread... thought provoking isn't it?

    image
    DD~
  • agilesto
    agilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    Quoting this just because I'm amazed


    - if you are under geared and want people to carry you then you may well be kicked

    If you are judged by your peers as sub-par in performance then they should kick you.

    dionchi said:


    Or is there some point where a higher level player's statements and opinions deserve more consideration than a lower level players?

    There is indeed a point.
    When you have spent money on a game your opinion carries more weight.
    .
    Sooooo, in a levelling dungeon, meaning available from lvl 12, you are clearly under geared so you may well be kicked. But, a question comes to my mind: Aren't levelling dungeons for levelling players and not for maxed players?

    Second point, your opinion doesn't carry more weight if you spent money on the game. At all. Period.

  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User

    I have not read all the posts, but in case it has not mentioned already, this is not just problem for the leveling dungeons, this is a problem for a lot of the epic dungeons as well. I have seen this happen a lot in dungeons like Valindra where a new player does not know what to do and then they are stuck with two gelantinous cubes alone that end up killing them, or sprinting to the first/second boss in Spider Temple and leaving some pour soul to killed by the mob.

    Lets be honest here, the main reason the selfish sprinters do what they do is to win paingiver, this is their only really challenge and motivation to run dungeons. Even the most selfish inconsiderate player will be aware of the fact that leaving players behind to tackle enemies solo means that it just takes longer for everyone to get to boss fight (those that need all members together first to enter it), so this argument that they are trying to do faster farming is nonsense.

    The question is what to do about this is not easy though, ideally one can kick these kind of players, but Cryptic needs to come up with some kind of game mechanism that punishes the sprinters, if not they are just going to have more players quitting. And who would blame them, nobody started playing this game with the notion that this is how the dungeons were going to be.

    Bunch of BS with a horrendously dumb suggestion at the end.

    This is an MMO and you play with other human beings. By using random queue or pug queue you are playing group content with random people in a random group so it is your responsibility to be on par with what is expected from a player in a random group. What is expected from a player in a random group is to contribute to the best of their characters ability to make the run as quick,efficient and painless as it can possibly be with that particular group - this means knowing the content and how it is run, having a decently strong character and knowing how to play it already. Random and pug queue is FOR FARMING, random and pug queue IS NOT FOR TEACHING, random and pug queue IS NOT FOR PLAYING IN ANY WAY that hinders the group and slows the run down. Premade farming groups have even higher standards so don't even try to whine about this.

    The vast majority of the player base, myself included, views group content as nothing more than a means to earn AD which is the only way to achieve the one thing that matters in MMOs - character progression. Players will play what is most efficient in the most efficient possible way, the lucky ones will only play full private groups but most cannot do so so they will use public queues instead. If you want to play in a way that is different then the vast majority then you SHOULD NOT be using public queue, go form your own party or join a guild that has players who like to play like you do.

    And yes i know Random Queue being the only source of bonus AD forces you to play with random people and i hate it with a passion but still, it is up to YOU to adapt to how the game is played, put in the work to form a party that will not play like most people would or you could simply not play the game or the particular content or content type. Your feelings and opinions don't matter - most people want to farm as fast as possible in public groups, if you don't then don't use public queues and don't group with them.
    Seriously just uninstall the game and create yourself a spreadsheet where you can give yourself astral diamonds as much as you want, that is in essence what you are seeking in a game. And read my comment carefully again, you clearly have zero clue what I said and you have zero clue to how your utter selfishness and lack of awareness of others is nothing but bad for this game.
  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    It is utterly laughable how the people here are trying to twist around the opening post for being leecher, when he very clearly indicated he was not and that he was kicked by the sprinters for the heinous crime of dying in a leveling dungeon.

    And NO, spending more money does not make you carry more weight, this is equivalent to some jerk on the road that thinks because he drives a Ferrari people need to make way. All this attitude does is make you a jerk.
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    Ah so you appear to confirm that the premise of this thread was about high level players "doing the dirt" to a lower level player.

    The "premise" of this thread is seemingly higher level players negatively affecting lower level players. It was stated from this end that both higher and lower level players do negative things to the other, not just one, not just the other and the negativity feeds into the repetitive cycle. It was stated that way because that's how people present it (as if it is some kind of phenomenon that only happens a certain way (higher to lower)).
    dionchi said:

    And no one advocated for lower level players to kick or punish higher level players

    Yet...
    chemjeff said:

    With the leveling dungeons, you can have rewards that are appropriate for leveling players - maybe an XP booster, or epic leveling gear that might salvage only for 500-1000 AD or so but would be much more useful for new players to actually equip, but the salvage value really wouldn't be worth it for level 70 speedrunners.

    A lvl 70 toon in a leveling dungeon should have the vote-kick option disabled.

    but Cryptic needs to come up with some kind of game mechanism that punishes the sprinters

    these things WILL punish higher level players... (one even clearly stated to punish them)

    Leeching was brought up because it is a recurring thing that happens in various content. There are a number of players that have gotten to the end of a queue (higher and lower), looked on the map and saw one or more characters sitting at the campfire (CT, MotH, DL, etc.) or always seem to be behind, those characters are essentially leeching since the content was completed/nearly completed and they seemingly didn't even try to participate.

    Leeching/AFK farming happens, unfortunately and arguably for the most part it is done by lower level characters.

    Do all lower players do that, of course not, nor was it stated that they do though when higher level players reach the "gather your party" circle and they see a character(s) stationary at the FIRST campfire and deem them as leechers/AFK farmers it is not without valid reasonability (it goes even further when on the scoreboard they have "0" downs meaning they didn't die which would send them back to the campfire).

    In higher level content (any content really) and a player(s) that intentionally didn't contribute at all/very little get a rare drop, it can be discouraging. Have been in party chat a number of times, seen it happen and witnessed other players complain about them getting something of far lower value while the leecher(s) got something valuable when they didn't even considerably contribute. If leechers/AFK farmers didn't get rewarded or were rewarded very minimally it wouldn't have been brought up though they do and some players have an issue with that.

    The "simple solution" was put in quotes because "simple" would be determined by the developers. It was also suggested because players seem to want to consciously continue to queue solo yet STILL complain about the group composition the system forms. In other words since players don't want to help rectify the situation themselves by grouping before queuing, either things will stay the same, players will step up and help change things and or the developers could do something, personally, would rather players group up then queue rather wanting the develops to "fix" it not only because it is something the community can do for themselves but also because if the developers step in who knows what else would be implemented as well regarding it. Trying to get higher and lower level players to work as a party could very well work (arguably harder to achieve) though grouping before queuing would do the same thing if not better.
    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
  • oldtimer#7525
    oldtimer#7525 Member Posts: 141 Arc User



    Seriously just uninstall the game and create yourself a spreadsheet where you can give yourself astral diamonds as much as you want, that is in essence what you are seeking in a game. And read my comment carefully again, you clearly have zero clue what I said and you have zero clue to how your utter selfishness and lack of awareness of others is nothing but bad for this game.

    I did read it and you were just whining about irrelevant stuff and making a stupid suggestion which is why i responded. Also you are calling someone else selfish while advocating that anyone who doesn't play the way you think they should should be punished by the game developer, your lack of self awareness is amusing.

    I also find it funny how i'm the selfish one when i am completely against the idea of forcing anyone especially new players to endure random queues and i am advocating for level 70's to never have to even consider playing pre-70 content for rewards but without being barred from it if they choose to run it. But you wouldn't know that since you are too busy talking about yours or someone else's feelings instead of the reality in game and how bad the dungeon system, not the player base is. You are blaming the player base for Cryptic's numerous failings.

    The reality in game is this - pug groups are there to farm AD and finish content as fast as possible because all the content we have is boring,unrewarding and repetitive and we are FORCED to play it randomly with randoms if we want to progress. If you are confused as to why virtually everyone would want to ONLY speed run a piece of content that is boring,repetitive and unrewarding and is only somewhat not a complete waste of time if you speed run it then i have nothing to say to you.

    In case you still don't get it no, i am not slowing any average pug group down to teach anyone or coddling any player just because they are *new* or claim to be - they expect me to perform the same way they expect the other guy to perform. Plenty of idiots/leechers around for me to trust anyone i don't know that they are worth the time and effort to teach or help - if they are actively trying to contribute to a run and ask for help then i'll gladly give them some maybe even befriend them, in any other scenario either keep up and do your job or get out of the party.

    This isn't selfishness, this is how group games are played - your needs don't matter, the party's needs matter. This goes both for whiners and leechers that slow down a speed running party and for a *sprinter* that tries to do a speed run in a casual party. If you are wasting the party's time you best believe i'll get mad and/or cuss you out if you don't have the decency to apologize or throw a simple disclaimer like *sorry i'm lagging*. I don't care if you lie or not as long as you aren't a whiner and respect the party you are in.
  • agilesto
    agilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User


    On the question you ask, are the words levelling dungeon really applicable to content that is accessible to any player of level twelve plus? Random queue is what it is called, not levelling dungeon.

    And no, random queues are not being run by people with the sole or even main purpose to level up but are farmed for the astral diamonds you get from them. Trying to say that people are doing them to level up is a joke as almost no one would do dungeons more than once if they got no ad sources from them. Most level 70's would prefer to run spider than cloak tower simply because spider is faster but we too are subject to the will of the random queue now which is why I now hate cloak tower and despise players who suck.

    Above freshstart stated that "most people want to farm as fast as possible in public groups" and this paradigm is the harsh reality that you dont seem to understand. Quick and efficient runs are what people are looking for, they dont want useless or time wasters or afk or scummy characters. If the developers are looking for good PR then doing something about scummy characters is an easy way to make lots of players happier.


    Your opinion definitely carries more weight if you spend money on the game. I will give you an example using this thread...

    The reality is no matter how much you spent on the game and how your playstyle is, your opinion is the same as a fresh new player. Simply because it's an opinion, and spending money is not gonna add weight to it. You can argue all the time, but in a game like this your voice is the same as a lvl 1, even if you're a whale. However, as an experimented player you sure can add more details to your argumentation. But that does not mean they'll listen more to you.

    About levelling dungeons, they're not called like that, but they are the dungeons that you have a quest to do when you are levelling. I know that random queues now force us to run them, that doesn't change the fact that we should not have to walk a meter in there.
    And you're wrong, plenty of people run these dungeons to level up and to discover things. I run with them every day with my several alts. Now you can say that these players "suck" but that makes you a total jerk, but your argumentation anyway is absolut elitist no more.
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    The incontinent truth as I see it is some players, with more experienced and better equipped characters, have other options for acquiring astral diamonds.

    Most low level, poorly equipped players can't go to the Dread Ring, Sharandar, Tyranny of Dragon or higher quests where they can pick up items salvageable for astral diamonds, or drops that sell for a pretty good price on the auction house...

    Most higher level more experienced players can - but don't - go to those other areas , presumably because they consider those other areas and the tasks they must perform a little more difficult or time consuming than running what they figure will be a quick and easy random dungeon for AD payout at the end, and there is nothing really wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.

    But what I do objectionable is some players trying to claim lower level and less experienced players are HAMSTER up their dungeon run experienced because they have to "carry" or wait for lower level players.

    Some players claim they are unhappy because they have to wait a minute or two for other players to catch up, some have complained because they have to actually confront mobs instead of running past them, or try to give less experienced players advice on how best to navigate in a particular dungeon, which just means they have to wait a little longer before their end game payout...

    I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

    I also have read some commendable comments from some players who have stated they leave no party member behind, they try to give advice when they believe it is warranted and haven't as I've noticed complained about having to "carry", "baby sit" or wait for other members of their party...

    I think that too pretty much speaks for itself.

    I won't even try to address the comment that some believe a few opinions deserve more consideration simply because they've "spent money on a game"...

    It is what it is.
    DD~
  • kemnimtarkas
    kemnimtarkas Member Posts: 831 Arc User
    It's about basic decency.

    Playing in an anonymous MMO means the nasty side of human behavior can express itself with little or no repercussions on the goofball who wants to play like the game is all about them.

    IMO, how you choose to interact with other human players in a virtual world helps define who you are in RL.

    To the OP - sorry you got kicked. I would never do that or agree with it in a random PUG - only reason to vote/kick is AFK.
  • edwardthatch#4600
    edwardthatch#4600 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    > @holygraell#9965 said:
    > Otherwise, the game is fun, although I do wish (and I'm probably alone in this, I know) that I didn't out level even the questing zones so quickly.

    You are not alone. Due to various events (such as the Summer Festival) I quickly outleveled many questing zones too. I tried my best to catch up, but the end result is that I'm now lvl 70 and haven't even started on the Chasm (a lvl 46 zone). I can understand why some people won't really care about these zones anymore once they reach lvl 70, but the thing is that completing all the quests in a zone will often score you some rather useful items on the Campaigns board, such as refinement marks or profession assets. I find that especially the various Marks of Power, Union and Stability are otherwise hard to find, unless you get lucky with Celestial Coin coffers (or other loot boxes) or buy them from the Trade House. (And I doubt people are selling them cheap)

    Once you get too many levels above the questing zone, the marks on quest givers won't even be visible anymore, and you will have to run around the map talking to every NPC in the hopes that they have more quests for you. So in conclusion I definitely understand your frustration.
  • edwardthatch#4600
    edwardthatch#4600 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    I have experienced speed runners in both Neverwinter and other MMO's, and to be honest it's just incredibly annoying. I can sort of understand why people would want to finish the dungeon quickly, but they need to understand that some people might want to get more out of a dungeon run than a handful of copper and whatever loot the final boss drops. As many people said the end result will usually be that the dungeon takes just as long, if not longer, for instance if the 20 enemies you ran past started chasing you and ended up in a cluster in some narrow opening, meaning that the people behind you can't get past them without killing them first. You will still have to wait for the others before fighting the final boss, unless of course you decide to basically kick them for not having the same movement stat as yourself. As long as there are two distinct groups you can't rely on your whole party being intent on a speedrun, unless you make your own group with just speedrunners. Furthermore I don't really see why end game players still want to do low level dungeons, That is unless you have the same problem as me: Even with everything except my sword and underarmor having at least item lvl 345, I don't qualify for the epic dungeons.
  • callumf#9018
    callumf#9018 Member Posts: 1,585 Arc User
    @edwardthatch#4600

    End game players are forced to run levelling dungeons for guild shards and astral diamonds.

    No end game player want to run Cloak Tower for 10 minutes of utter boredom trust me :smile:
  • trinity706#8838
    trinity706#8838 Member Posts: 643 Arc User
    All players have other options for AD, though, for a large part of things, players want to spend less time doing/getting more and since private queues no longer grant bonus RAD that means a number of players are running RQ's for that purpose which unfortunately pools all players together and the dissonance between "opposing goals" often having a dust up with neither side wanting to relent or make their goal(s) less forced upon the other.

    Higher level players have just as much right in lower level content as anyone else even if they are there simply for the RAD. Granted they shouldn't vote kick lower level players (actual players, not leechers) if they feel it is taking to long since they could have gathered a few of their higher level acquaintances beforehand to help ensure speed/efficiency though overall ALL players that queue should be putting in effort to the best of their ability. Arguably if higher level players didn't encounter leechers, at least some of the attitude towards lower level players would be positive (not in every case). When you repeatedly have to wait on "players" not simply because they are slower but rather because they are waiting until the end it gets old really fast, get rid of those players and a more positive dialogue can be had.

    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
    Community Project: Neverwinter "RNG" Database

    Suggestions: Allow Guilds More Administrative Options \/\/ "Auto" Identify Items/"Auto-Load"/Refinement Sorting+ (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen \/\/ Character - "Legacy" Items
This discussion has been closed.