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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849

    Edit:

    Moved info to previous page, as this was a duplicated post it has been deleted.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    The shift in focus of proposed changes is promising, the direction these changes are taking is a bit more meaningful now. As long as we keep on this road then things should start looking up for the SW.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Hey guys,

    • Murderous Flames: Letting this affect more (fire) powers is a cool idea
    • In general, I (personally) don't think feat points that only affect 1 or 2 powers (yes, darkness included) are healthy for gameplay. There are some spots where it works, such as Paragon feats, but things like Murderous Flames being locked into Killing Flames basically means you have to use that power for your current build.
    • Soul Desecration: I think this capstone doesn't offer enough of a damage boost for being a capstone, the idea of two soul puppets is neat - but I would rather one soul puppet be really meaningful.
    • Power of the Nine Hells: I agree that this feat is still particularly strong, which means it was ridiculously powerful before-hand. For now, it's in a better place than it was before, but I think you at least have a bit more of an option - even if most would prefer to support their group by taking it.
    • Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big, but I understand the frustration of having to constantly move (whether to a splat, or re-positioning yourself) and having to replace it.
    • Dark Revelry: I'll be looking into the power share for this feat. I know that Devoted Clerics and Oathbound Paladins both share their own power, so this works a bit differently. That said, it would be a rather large buff, so no guarantees on a change here (for the time being).
    Po9H is currently taken to buff allies for sure. But with the change, even if you don't need it to buff allies, every HB SW will take Po9H to make sure they get 100% uptime on the buff for themselves first, and on others as a consequence. If the pillar moved with the SW I could see a situation in which only the thoughtful SW would take it. As the changes stand, it will probably be 99.87% of the SW taking it. I would suggest this feat increased PoP damage and/or added an extra buff to the puppet hitting targets inside the pillar, or added an investiture stack for every 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 seconds the puppet is inside a pillar, thus becoming a more damnation oriented feat. Or at the very least give the PoP buff a base duration of 2 seconds when out of the pillar.

    On the puppet I'd rather have one more powerful as you say than two of them. You could look into increasing the cap on investiture stacks for the capstone probably. Also, could you make it easier to visualize them? A visual change to the puppet as the stacks increase would be cool. Make the puppet as big as Valindra at max stacks. Would probably be fun to see that.

    Thanks for taking a look at all the suggestions.

    P.S.: Nice change on the eldritch momentum.
    yes visualize a puppet buffed (may be more great, illumined like dark flare or more darkness) also move soul investures to bar buff selfcharacter make more easily trak down.

    Actually puppet its very pour DPS increase cap max staks soul investures and can gain thats staks while puppet stand up pilar of power i belive its sound good solve
    Post edited by darkan#3756 on
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    also can considerer tweked some feats damnation like siphoning curse and relentless curse are really unusless
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Since u wanna avoid feats being tied to powers, y not proc darkness off of any necrotic damage and murderous flames can proc off of any fire damage? Also for eldritch movement, y not make it a passive grp feat that inceases ur allies speed and on daily use a reduction of encounter cooldowns based off of ur lifesteal chance so 15% life steal would proc for a 15% reduction on wat ur cooldowns are on so it could help since templocks heal through encounters, could be a grp or self buff feat for the cooldowns @balanced#2849
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849 I think some feats in the Fury tree need to be buffed and/or fixed. and like @eclipseblood#1326 said about the MF feat proccing off of any fire power. I think that idea is good. Also from what I've seen and alot other SWs as well, is the MF feat underperforming. It needs to be fixed if u havent done so yet.. Some ppl reported that AOE dmg for MF feat is dealing around 12% instead of the 30% it should be dealing to foes around the target. Maybe the last 3 tiers of MF isnt working at all but im not 100% sure of that.
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    > @merhunesdagon1 said:
    > @balanced#2849 I think some feats in the Fury tree need to be buffed and/or fixed. and like @eclipseblood#1326 said about the MF feat proccing off of any fire power. I think that idea is good. Also from what I've seen and alot other SWs as well, is the MF feat underperforming. It needs to be fixed if u havent done so yet.. Some ppl reported that AOE dmg for MF feat is dealing around 12% instead of the 30% it should be dealing to foes around the target. Maybe the last 3 tiers of MF isnt working at all but im not 100% sure of that.

    Think in bugtober it was mentioned that murderous flames was getting x2 mitigated and that was fixed( not live yet)
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849,



    Lesser curse:
    Is there is way to check what is base chance to proc lesser curse..
    Without All consuming curse class feature is legendary achievement to proc lesser curse. While I think Lesser curse should be more active within SW combats..

    =======================================================================

    Harrowstorm and darkness
    Lets talk about this encounters downsides..

    Harrowstorm curse synergy - Curse Synergy: Applying a Warlock's Curse to the main target while Harrowstorm is active will surge the storm, Knocking the target into the air and leaving them Prone, but ending Harrowstorm.

    1) You can't curse on target affected by harrowstorm, because thats lead to CC element which cancel encounter..
    Curse = 20% damage increase and you have to skip it.... Bad trade off..

    2) slow casting - this encounter require you to stand still, but it's casting time is way too long.

    3) if primary target dies = encounter got canceled. Waste of tome to try use on trashes, and bad when comes to proc Life steal...

    4) do not provide any defensive values.. Blades of Vanquished Armies grant 20% deflect when its active. Also you can cast this encounter while run, even when using shadow slip...

    5) warlock have just 3 encounter slots.
    Most temptation warlocks are hellbringers, means Pillar of Power will be used by default.. means 2 slots remain. and when you have to pick Blades of Vanquished Armies or Harrowstorm.. BoVA better option.

    So sadly truth, but harrowstorm require reworking.
    ================================================================

    Murderous flame - seems everyone like this idea.. :)
    Anyways.. When I wrote that idea, I have in mind, to enchant couple powers.
    Daily power: Flames of Phlegethos
    At will: Eldritch Blast.
    And then latter through about fiery bolt, and other encounters...

    At will: Eldritch Blast. is viable until you unlock Essence Defiler(SB) and Hellish rebuke(HB).
    After that this at will become useless. Even if it's third hit is AoE, dealt damage is bad, also proc creeping death or flame of empowerment class feature or build up soul sparks is too slow..
    With murderous flames, each hit would become AoE, and 30% of dealt dmg will split to other enemies. So more quicker build up soul sparks, or build up Creeping death stacks.

    With Daily power: Flames of Phlegethos also is kinda problem..
    It's slow daily power, it's aoe, even it's radius is small.. So with murderous flames it would become great when comes single target fights. Which would 30% increase....
    ========================================================


    Soul Desecration - two soul puppets.

    The idea in generally is simple.
    Damnations soul puppet can be insane strong, but it will still lags behind due it's speed and also because puppet can engage only single target at once. The time duration between puppet kill one target and move to other is too big. In single target fights yes it's good, but when come multiple targets damnation lags way behind. And this is main reason why no one pick damnation tree.
    With 2 soul puppets at same time = means you engage multiple targets, and when fight single one you get increased performance.. Two soul puppets hitting have more chance to proc- Burning Puppets. Plus even if one soul puppet dies, you have second other one and keep Warding Spirits and Ghastly Commander feats enabled. Which brings extra benefits.
    And also. 2 soul puppets would cover more area = Spiritfire become more beneficial.

    But also had idea which forgot to write here, to keep single soul puppet, but slightly enchant how it do fight.

    It would be: Soul Desecration - soul puppet get shadow step,(teleport) behind foe. Once target got killed, it would spawn jump(teleport) to other foe and so one.. When all dead, it would teleport back to warlock..

    In addition: In combat mode, Soul Puppet would have chance to apply minor debuff toward enemies by x radius around soul puppet.


    Such changes would make damnation more viable....
    ============================================================

    Pillar of Power + Power Of Nine Hells.

    This is your reworked PoNH feat.
    Power of the Nine Hells now only causes the buff applied by Pillar of Power to last an additional 1/2/3/4/5 seconds. Pillar of Power (by itself) now grants allies the exact same buff as 5/5 points in Power of the Nine Hells would now.

    So if I understood it correctly, thats mean feat itself only let buff last ~5s, when players leave Pillar of power effect area.
    And thats including warlock himself. Which is not so good..


    My proposal would be:

    Buff applied by Pillar of Power to last an additional 1/2/3/4/5 seconds. ( for warlock only).

    While Power of Nine Hells: Allies receive Pillar of Power buff: 15/30/45/50/75 (15% per rank), in additionally last 1/2/3/4/5 second.


    What such changes would grant..

    For full dps focused warlock.. He would not spend 10 feat points for damnation tree and spend them to enchant own damage further.
    Or he can choose to pick feat and share Pillar of Power buff with allies..

    Such change make feat more optional than requirement..

    ======================================================

    Dark revelry - power sharing..
    In some sense I like this idea.. But there is one kinda tricky thing.. To get best effect with such change would need for SW to have max power. And thats mean skip resist ignorance, which mean reducing dealt damage which lead to lower healing..

    DC power sharing is good, because DC can ignore Crit, Armor penetration values and go full power. While templock can't do that..
    But I would like to see how it would look like in action and mostly in multiple scenarios.

    =======================================================


    Eldritch Momentum: What if not combine both your proposals in one?

    Eldritch Momentum to grant 1/2/3/4/5% stamina when hit, but keep the Combat Advantage proc on daily usage.
    Using a daily power increases Stamina Regen of nearby allies by 4/8/12/16/20%

    Stamina recovery 1~5% is for warlock himself alone. with Daily power you restore allies stamina.. Thats more reasonable to restore allies stamina in combat.

    Combat advantage is good idea, but I don't think it would be good.
    Last time testers did checking, they noted that Combat advantage in current NWO modules are almost worthless. I have 2000 CA with my warlock.. When I remove artifact and keep with 1200 CA, I don't feel any difference at all. So unless it's glitch/bug within CA mechanic or simply it's not worth to use this CA at all..

    And if you still would prefer CA, sure we could add line:
    On usage daily powers: Grant allies 4/5/6/7/8% CA.
    =====================================================

    And now extras. Vampiric embrace..
    With your reworked Warlocks bargain encounter, I think VE encounter lost its value..
    So my proposal would be: Curse synergy would now grant damage increase, 5% per rank (5/10/15/20) with duration. 2s per rank. (2/4/6/8).

    With soul Bonding feat(templock) interaction with VE you would be able spread that buff to allies.

    And I think it's better way than players try aim foes who are affected by templocks curse.
    Also it would be better when comes fighting groups of foes.
    =============================


    And now extras..
    Just for fun,, what do you think about revising warlocks ability score formula.

    Our main ability Score is CHA which grant 1% . Critical Chance. Combat Advantage damage and Companion stat bonus

    Our secondaries
    INT - 1% Resistance Ignored, Recharge Speed ,
    CON -1%Damage bonus, Stamina Regeneration.

    Also warlocks heroic feat: Blood Pact of Cania -Increases the amount of bonus damage Constitution gives you by 1/2/3/4/5%.


    So as you can see, warlock is slow in casting and casting, so INT is very important, but Bonus Damage is also very important,.
    And CHA seems least valuable . Thats why there is lot of SW who try get as high con. Higher INt, and low CHA.

    While Others than SW, TR, GF and OP primaries grant bonus damage. Also CW and HR have feat which increase amount of bonus damage granted by theirs primaries abilities.

    MY proposal would be that Warlocks CHA would grant 0.5% or even 0.25% bonus damage. While Con 1%.

    Also Blood Pact of Cania -Increases the amount of bonus damage CON and CHA gives you by 1/2/3/4/5%.


    This idea just for speculation, comparison on paper.. :)

    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Honestly, between all the fixes that warlocks are getting from October we might only just need tweaks to put fury back into a better place, i like the idea of mf affecting all fire damage, flame of empowerment should be a self buff because to debuff every since enemy in mspc on tong isnt realistic because they will already be dead, maybe for tyrannical Curse change it so that its up as another form of buff so that if the 1st target of the dailly dies the next target u curse gets to be the new target, u could cap this at 1 the animation would no longer be a problem because u can pop it before a fight, power of the nine hells could offer the same 5 sec but have it so that curse synergy effects reduce our cooldowns by 2 sec. Reducing the amount of time that creeping death need would help as well
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    I dont know if with 2 soul puppets solution lack DPS damnation may be if return base damage spirit fire can be aviable but damnation not beneficts crit builds and still yet advantageless from others buffs own damnation path like a power of the nine i think puppet at least deal more damage (may be 10%) while stand up inside and enlarge radius pilar of power. Also dont solve rapid loss staks soul investure without combat or when confront single boss

    For temptation i think power sharing not is the best option its better damage sharing (i belive read this idea some where) eldrich momentum why not regain 15% or 10% stamina? 5% i think its a bite and why not proc encounters ?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big

    I'm sorry but I have to comment on this despite not knowing much about SW's and even less about PoP.

    The impracticality of PoP is one of the main aspects that kept me away from playing a SW. With a radius of 13 feet it will simply miss half of its targets most of the time if not always. On top of that you set it once and for all. If the zone could move with you, a radius of 20-25 feet (OP auras have a radius of 30 feet) would be tolerable. Since it's stuck to the ground, it should be at least 45 feet (DC's hallowed ground is 60 feet). 13 feet simply doesn't make any sense, making it an AoE power which rarely hits multiple targets.

    That´s what PoP does all time, miss most of your teammates.
    The dps buff should be an aura or a lasting buff applied in a far bigger area, maybe like ITF or like Dark Revelry allready does, or an area effect like HG.
    The 13inch green plate, dealing damage and debuff, might stay.
    Every other class is able to cast buffs with a far better aoe, warlocks is 13 feet. Even picking that feat PotnH.
    The buff is worse than every other buff I could think of atm.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    > @artifleur said:
    > Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big
    >
    > I'm sorry but I have to comment on this despite not knowing much about SW's and even less about PoP.
    >
    > The impracticality of PoP is one of the main aspects that kept me away from playing a SW. With a radius of 13 feet it will simply miss half of its targets most of the time if not always. On top of that you set it once and for all. If the zone could move with you, a radius of 20-25 feet (OP auras have a radius of 30 feet) would be tolerable. Since it's stuck to the ground, it should be at least 45 feet (DC's hallowed ground is 60 feet). 13 feet simply doesn't make any sense, making it an AoE power which rarely hits multiple targets.

    @balanced#2849

    One of the very reasons Power of the Nine Hells is and will still be a mandatory feat even in mod 13 is PoP's very small radius, in combat situations you have to move a lot and without said feat you'd constantly lose 24% of your damage potential which is simply unacepptable, trying to keep all group members in it is even worse because of the same reason, if you are able to run endgame content with your SW you should know what I mean.

    Please consider making PoP radius at least as large as that of Circle of Power or larger than that but smaller than that of Hallowed Ground, if you did that it would actually be reasonpable to skip Power of the Nine Hells (Killing Curse will still be awfully underpowered though) PoP desperately needs a tweak in that regard.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 137 Arc User
    Tbh I do not find the radius of PoP any issue as with Po9H it lasts 5 seconds after leaving it, so your teammates just have to use their own brain to figure they have to walk into it from time to time to keep the buffs up and running. This is a fulltime buff and having no problem keeping it up in any of the groups I run with. On bosses it is super easy to keep up, the only people missing it are rangedwho does not walk into it and stays far away from the target, which isn't a smart move anyways as you miss out on buffs, not only from PoP. Even without it only in AoE trash fights it might be a bit troublesome. It could be increaed to like 15-18 max imo, but not much more.

    Some of the mentioned ideas above make me wonder if some people posting even plays the class. Making it 45' is just crazy. Speaking from laziness I would think. Hallowed Ground from DC is a daily, this is an encounter with short cooldown. If you rarely hit multiple targets I think you are just placing it wrong. Maybe you tend to strike from far away as ranged? At least not an effective method for PoP.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    yep there are way more important things to focus on then PoP radius. Just takes skill to optimise your buff uptime. I will drop the Feat for DPS HB next mod.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,039 Arc User

    Honestly, between all the fixes that warlocks are getting from October we might only just need tweaks to put fury back into a better place, i like the idea of mf affecting all fire damage, flame of empowerment should be a self buff because to debuff every since enemy in mspc on tong isnt realistic because they will already be dead, maybe for tyrannical Curse change it so that its up as another form of buff so that if the 1st target of the dailly dies the next target u curse gets to be the new target, u could cap this at 1 the animation would no longer be a problem because u can pop it before a fight, power of the nine hells could offer the same 5 sec but have it so that curse synergy effects reduce our cooldowns by 2 sec. Reducing the amount of time that creeping death need would help as well

    I partly agree that Flames of Empowerment should be selfbuff.

    I would say it should be 2/3 of current buff effect as selfbuff. And last 1/3 of current FoE effect stay as debuffing element. But instead require to use at wills to proc FoE. it should be proc by any power.



    @artifleur, and others who talk about Pillar of Power radius.

    Guys, original PoP effect radius where 30% maybe 45% smaller than current one. Also it's radius goes in similar range as BoVa. It was not ment to be size as DC daily power Hallowed Ground. All because unlike DC's daily power, warlocks PoP also deal damage.. And this looks unfair that SW have insane large AoE encounter, and deal damage to everyone..

    It's size already is OK. No need to increase.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • darkan#3756 darkan Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    dealt insignificant damage in the ACT proc 9% or 8% from your damage and suppos its ok if its encounter power for buff like others powers like dreadtheft not have main function DPS so this case should be litle more usuefull like that power for support party how can mantenience inside party on pilar of power if its too small raidius i dont belive necesary equal or than big like hallowed but defently more 13 feet may be 25 or 30 if even PoP was disegned for use like encounter power for DPS its too small compared others powers AoE for example my HR i see storm cover a big area with Split of the sky and others clases like CW covers bigs áreas with storms finally if was designed for encounter DPS the damage will should be fixed
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    Murderous Flames: Letting this affect more (fire) powers is a cool idea
    In general, I (personally) don't think feat points that only affect 1 or 2 powers (yes, darkness included) are healthy for gameplay. There are some spots where it works, such as Paragon feats, but things like Murderous Flames being locked into Killing Flames basically means you have to use that power for your current build.
    Sounds nice, in general a 30% aoe buff for KF, FB, HR, FoPhleg, etc. Those are allready favoured encounter for a fury dps.
    Necrotic encounter also could need a push, maybe by implementing a feat in the damnation tree that favours necrotic damage, by that improving damnations support and dps abilities. A debuff apllied by necrotic damage or a direct dps increase of necrotic powers.

    Soul Desecration: I think this capstone doesn't offer enough of a damage boost for being a capstone, the idea of two soul puppets is neat - but I would rather one soul puppet be really meaningful.

    Bossfights do not last long enough to stack that buff in an acceptable time and the stacks disappear if your puppet dies, wich happens pretty easy.
    The puppet needs a fast instant buff to apply or a slower lasting, stacking buff, that does not disappear the moment the puppet dies.

    Power of the Nine Hells: I agree that this feat is still particularly strong, which means it was ridiculously powerful before-hand. For now, it's in a better place than it was before, but I think you at least have a bit more of an option - even if most would prefer to support their group by taking it.
    Pillar of Power: The radius on this power is currently 13', which I think is pretty big, but I understand the frustration of having to constantly move (whether to a splat, or re-positioning yourself) and having to replace it.
    I think PoP in mod 13 is more a selfbuff with near no group utility (area to small), or the same story as before: PotnH stays a "must have" for every support orientated build to benefit from that buff at all.
    PoP should be an aoe effect (the buff) at 30 feet, that small area (13 feet) could stay static for applying dps/debuff/DR buff.
    PotnH should be changed in another way, maybe by spending the caster a lasting DR buff out of that 13 feet area, or improving the DR buff towards the group, making it a choice for supporter specs.

    Dark Revelry: I'll be looking into the power share for this feat. I know that Devoted Clerics and Oathbound Paladins both share their own power, so this works a bit differently. That said, it would be a rather large buff, so no guarantees on a change here (for the time being).

    If I run a supporter spec as Temptation, my tools so far are:
    Buff:
    1. PoP 18%, inconsistent

    2. Soul Bonding: a 20% dps buff only at bossencounter from interest, an improvement by sure
    Known buffs from other classes: ITF 35%, HG 40%, TI 20%, all of them are a flat damage increase, 24/7.
    BtS 40% dps, FF 15% dps, flat damage increase with short drop offs.

    3. Dark Revelry, a powerbuffs for 20% of recievers basepower, leading to a 6-7 k power buff for the player and a pretty small buff for companions (rebuffing the player by that)
    Talking about balance, this buff is 1/8 of the powerbuff an AC/DC could spend and abuot 1/4 of what a Pally could share. Those classes are build for power and not crit , to share even more, so the difference is even bigger than 1/8.

    4. debuffs from PoP and DT. Those debuffs are inferior to others in bossfights, because they are inconistent and do not last, esp. DT.


    About balance. I hope it is the target to achieve between classes after call-out post mod 6.

    AA is a 30% powerbuff (once 50%) topped with WoL 10% and BoB 15%, leading to a 55% powerbuff from DC´s powerstat towards a player waering an augment. The owner of a companion with rank 14 bonds get´s a 162% powerbuff.
    Pally spends 25% of his Power, same way, leading via bondings to a near 75% powerbuff.
    Even a modified 20% powersharing buff is inferior to all those mentioned powerbuffs above.
    You need to amplify that buff x3 to get to DC´s level.
    Atm a DO-DC with Weapon of Live spends 10% as a passive buff all time towards player and companions, +HG 40%+TI 20% dmage + huge mitigation, by that I get a near 30%of DC´s powerstats (depending on my bonds), even if that DO-DC is just standing in PE and doing nothing.... that´s the double I get from Dark Revelry.
    These mechanics are known for long, are obviously WAI and the measure for current endcontent (Tong), making any augment obsolete these days btw.

    If you want to balance warlock in another way as a supporter or leader to be from interest or on par with other supporter (at least that´s what I expect, otherwise there is no need to go on with this class), you might spend that class another flat buff.
    Even doing so the class will stay inferior compared to my DC, by missing any kind of considerable mitigation power: AS/HG/BtS, DG, 40%+40%+12,5% +DR, 50% damage debuff.

    The general setup of groups will stay like now 4 supporter (maybe with templock ot not) and 1 dps, if things like stat-sharing companions and some buffs/selfbuffs are not adressed or balanced.
    Tbh I am no friend of stacking mega buffs, but if that´s the actual way the game is played, some classes need huge buffs. There is no way by spending some classes huge and others no buffs, that´s obviuos looking at actual mod.

    Beside that, the primary role of warlock as a striker needs to be carefully looked at.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849

    Mod 13 % scaling weapon damage feats will be far inferior to those of other classs and so will still be our buffing tool Pillar of Power, its radius is far too small if you compare the range of buffs/utility powers of other classes. Why is SW the one that gets gimped things? Compare the area of effect of PoP to that of Circle of Power and likewise the buff area of effect with that of longstrider/dc powers, it is both much smaller, weaker and locked to group mates only. Why is SW limited that much? It's like the other classes have their superior stuff easy and sweet whereas SW gets inferior things and with limitations.

    As it stands, Po9H >>>>> Killing Curse in mod 13, not worth it risking instantly losing 24% of your damage potential to take a very underpowered feat.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @balanced#2849 What I'm about to suggest might be out of the scope of this pass, but is possibly not too hard to implement. Would just take a little time to balance some numbers.

    - Make the current benefit of soul desecration be a class mechanic, not exclusive to the damnation capstone;
    _ Make a new soul desecration that makes the soul puppet actually permanent (can't be killed), increases the cap of investiture stacks by 5, and the duration of stacks by 30 seconds, losing one stack each time, and each new stack refreshing all others;
    - Adjust the non-damnation puppet damage and hp accordingly so on a fury lock it doesn't typically go over 10% of his damage contribution, or whatever number is appropriate.
    - Make Sparkbinder also add a 10/20/30/40/50% chance that Immolation spirits attacks will add an investiture stack;
    - Make Power of the nine hells add an investiture stack every 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 seconds the puppet stands on top of PoP.
    - Add an investiture bar so we can track the stacks. Could be like a determination, divine power/call bar. Could be only for the damnation capstone.

    This would significantly boost damnation damage while also being a possible source of damage compensation for other trees if they need it.
    Post edited by naoqueroforum on
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 655 Arc User
    Hi, as far as these are some QoL improvements until the deep class rework comes, they look pretty fine and promising to me.

    For sure there are some gameplay that could be enhanced, like being able to kill one Soul mob from Ras Nsi when the boss goes crazy and eats them in just 4 seconds (this fast eating doesn't always happens but when it does they mostly keep doing it no matter if the party wipes trying to reset the boss).

    As a side note, this is a comparison of two encounters, in the encounters bar, from two of my characters
    SW - Killing Flames - Damage 16K-46K - Cooldown 8.4s - 15.4K Item level (3.69K DPS)
    CW - Disintegrate - Damage 21K-26K - Cooldown 5.5 - 6.6K Item level (4.27K DPS)

    Yes, the CW is 6.6K IL, not 16.6K IL, so probably we the Warlocks need some more burst damage because with the current top dungeon mechanics to many people do not want SW in their parties.

    PS: sorry if this did sound sad, but I have had to make a GWF (still equipping it and doing campaigns) so I can get parties to ToNG when not enough friends are available online.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    People are spending waaaay too much time on Pillar of Power. One of the MAJOR POINTS of these changes should be to help wean SWs out of the current broken meta, specifically the fact that PoP + Owlbear Cub is currently being used as a crutch mechanic. Seriously Hellbringer already has a unique advantage over Soulbinder with Flames of Empowerment (which really doesn't have much competition from other SW class features offense-wise/everyone already uses it/buffing it isn't going to affect builds very much - feel free to go wild) especially with the way Soul Scorch currently works atm (extremely slow cast time).
    A buff to FoE would also reduce the impact of PoP + Owlbear no longer being a thing.

    Ultimately the idea is that PoP is an ally buff/debuff, and it should stay that way since SWs already DO have comparable powers for actually dealing damage/utility. If those powers get a pass (eg, Harrowstorm's casting time gets cut by half, Fiery Bolt benefiting from from more feats like Murderous Flames) then combined with other changes PoP should no longer be mandatory - which is how it should really be.

    It's also wrong that Damnation is bad at AoE - that's the one situational thing Damnation actually excels at atm. A damnlock using Tyrannical Curse/HG/PoP/Dreadtheft/ACC is actually able to deal respectable AoE damage especially against a large group of relatively tough mobs in part because you gain Soul Investiture stacks quickly from mobs that die with Warlock's Curse, resulting bursty Soul Investiture stack generation + multiple buff/debuff synergies (the puppet actually benefits from curses). A cursory look at ACT will tell you that it's in these situations where the puppet really shows its value. It's nothing gamebreaking but it's a massive improvement over Damnation's usual DPS.
    The problem is in solo fights (eg, against bosses), where damnation falls sharply behind due the puppet's single target damage potential being extremely low. Against relatively squishy mobs damnation also has the same problem as pretty much any other SW, though I really don't see why that should be a factor. As long as the SW's overall damage gets significantly improved, I don't see why I should care that I kill trash mobs 2 seconds slower.

    Soul Investiture stack generation is also easier than several people seem to think - keeping the stacks is the hard part, as others have noted. For increased stack generation to even make sense the stack limit must be raised first and this would mostly affect longer fights. A sustained DPS buff that would make more sense is if the puppet was immune to crowd control effects and gained an AoE or DoT resistance buff.

    Finally, there seems to be a marked lack of Soulbinder comments. Soulbinder is the defensive/single target damage spec, it's basically part of the reason why Hellbringer is forced into more of a teamplay/AoE damage playstyle.
    Since it IS part of what makes the SW class what it is, then unless the devs plan to remove Soulbinder completely and give Hellbringer a massive defensive/single target damage boost then the fact that Soulbinder is in even worse shape than Hellbringer should really cause more concern for SW players.
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  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    nisckis said:


    As a side note, this is a comparison of two encounters, in the encounters bar, from two of my characters
    SW - Killing Flames - Damage 16K-46K - Cooldown 8.4s - 15.4K Item level (3.69K DPS)
    CW - Disintegrate - Damage 21K-26K - Cooldown 5.5 - 6.6K Item level (4.27K DPS)

    Yes, the CW is 6.6K IL, not 16.6K IL, so probably we the Warlocks need some more burst damage because with the current top dungeon mechanics to many people do not want SW in their parties.

    PS: sorry if this did sound sad, but I have had to make a GWF (still equipping it and doing campaigns) so I can get parties to ToNG when not enough friends are available online.

    @balanced there right there you have a pretty bad flaw pointed out by @nisckis, myself and others for mods now, look at the damage and cooldown ratio and the sad part is that is even worse than that had the comparison be made with a similarly geared CW.

    Killing Flames has both a longer cooldown and longer casting time, for balance's sake its minimum damage should be much higher (so better in both pve and pvp) and it should not need enemies to be at 24.99% hp to actually reach full damage, at that point, even t9g bosses die so fast Killing Flames has little time at full potential.

    Just checked my 4869 pack mule CW, 5.4 seconds cooldown for disintegrate. This is what I said earlier, at pretty much everything, SW is gimped one way or another, Scourgimped Gimpedlock.

    Taking @nisckis values as reference, Killing Flames should be 41k - 46k and without the gimped-ing mechanic of needing enemies to be almosy dead so the encounter reachs full damage potential, this penalty holds the encounter back from dealing better dps to all builds. You keep the current cooldown, reduce casting time a bit and there you have it, Killing Flames how it should have always been.
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    @nisckis u do have a point, having an encounter with a long cooldown and hp dependent is absurd i think it should always do full damage and act like anvil of doom in that it adds a damage over time effect at 50% hp. With the scaling between the current power creep and buffs rn, most of the time when killing flames can do its max damage the boss is near dead anyways so theirs little point in using it unless its a single boss and u have murderous flames to "help" it. Other dps classes and the tiefling race have features that make them do increased damage when its near dying and with the demon lord set and fire archon its already gg when u pop killing flames
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Killing Flames used to do the same damage as a daily at roughly 50% target HP (Ice Knife's damage is only slightly lower than Disintegrate's). In fact, on release it seemed that it was because SWs had an encounter that could hit as hard as a daily that the SW's actual dailies had various utility effects instead of raw damage.
    That's just another example of how bad SW power scaling has been over the last few mods. Disintegrate complicates things further, the existence of that power alone should have been grounds for a massive SW single target damage boost.

    Logically, what seemed to happen was that the devs decided to give CWs more damage while giving SWs more control (HG, AoH). They really need to fix that, these powers are currently in no way comparable.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    PoP is the major reason why HB>SB as a more group focussed paragon, there is not much about that path to discuss in terms of support towards the group.
    Since buffs are the major reason, why classes are inside and some outside a dungeon it has to be from interest !

    The buff itself is nice and benefitial at static encounter like Hati, Turtle, 2. boss mSP
    But if you look at bossencounter like 1.+3. boss mSP, or 3. boss FBI you lose pretty much of it´s effectiveness.
    Same as you lose a lot of it´s effectiveness at encounter like Tal garth 1. Boss in CN and a compareable boss like Orcus in Tong, who simply cover a big spot in the mid.
    You simply can´t reach the group, it´s more you and maybe another teammate inside, missing 3 out of 5 teammember. And there is by no means anyone running towards that buffzone only to catch that buff all time in between doing his rotation.
    If you now think about mod 13, that buff will be more like a selfbuff than anything else at many bossencounter, if you want to run a pure dps spec.
    Nope, it´s not working like other buffs pointing at ITF, HG, TI, FF, BtS, (AoC).
    I am sure there could be an improvement towards that main reason why lot´s of player run Hellbringer instead Soulbinder.


    To pick up another point. Classfeature like Flames of empowerment act like a debuff and by that get´s deminished in a standart buffer party (200% softcap) and is far worse than a buff. At most bosses you reach that softcap pretty fast and those debuffs lose it´s effectiveness, ending in a poor benefit.
    Multiplier is what some classes stack and deal insane damage by that... and some classes drop off in the actual buffruns.

    From what I remeber Multiplier are powers and feats like:
    GF´s Knights´Challenge = 50% + dps
    GF´s capstone reckless attacker +20% dps+10% crit
    GF´s Shield Warriors Wrath = 20% + damage
    GF´s Combat Superiority = 17% + damage with offhand feat
    GF´s ITF 30-35% + Damage
    GF´s Villaines menace, forgot how much
    GF´s Wrathfull warrior +15% more damage
    GF´s Staggering Challenge + 20% to GW and 10% to KC

    GWF´s Destroyer with feat =45% + damage
    GWF´s Destroyer Purpose +50% Damage
    GWF´s Executioner Style up 30%
    GWF´s Hidden Dagger +30%
    and more

    Warlock´s PoP +24%
    Warlocks WC +20% (not sure if a classmechanic should be mentioned here...)
    Warlock´s Helltouched and Brutal Curse 10%
    Warlock´s anything to mention?

    Imo FoE should definitely be a buff, not a debuff any more..

    thx to @bellkazi a 53 mio Griffon Wrath...lol
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Forgot about the diminishing returns on debuffs, so flames of empowerment got nerfed too pretty much wat else do we have to increase our damage again? *chirp chirp chirp*
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User

    Forgot about the diminishing returns on debuffs, so flames of empowerment got nerfed too pretty much wat else do we have to increase our damage again? *chirp chirp chirp*

    With the previous debuff system, in endgame groups it would do up to nothing due to the 200% cap being rather easy to hit and with the new system, diminishimg returns reduce its effectiveness pretty badly.
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    > @jaime4312#3760 said:
    > Forgot about the diminishing returns on debuffs, so flames of empowerment got nerfed too pretty much wat else do we have to increase our damage again? *chirp chirp chirp*
    >
    > With the previous debuff system, in endgame groups it would do up to nothing due to the 200% cap being rather easy to hit and with the new system, diminishimg returns reduce its effectiveness pretty badly.

    I... plz make this a self buff @balanced#2849
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