Random queues were a dumb idea. I can only imagine it was intended to pad the playerbase for lesser queued content. I speed run the levelling dungeons on 4 toons, 16, 13, 12.5, and 10k respectively. Initially I was careful to go slowish, and try to clear.... but now it's like ruùuuuuuuuun....
Just take fib, tong and mps away from the epic q, and problem solved.
Devs watching closely. Lol. Halve bondings, introduce new ranks, throttle ad behind random queues... erm, you didn't need binoculars to see this coming.
If you have multiple toons, you should just do ERQ. Don't worry about FBI or mSP, it's more of a nuisance than a problem. On the few occasion I get them, I wait a bit. Usually someone will leave. Then I can leave with no penalty. If no one leaves after 10 seconds, then I leave and switch toons. No biggie.
Most of the time, you get something fast like eSoT, KR, VT, or even eToS. Even if you get something a bit longer like CN/eGWD/eCC, it is still kind of fast because the quality of toons in ERQ is much higher than pre-mod 12b public queue.
I've been spending like 30% less time in the game now, and making the same RAD as before. I don't even do the LRQ. But since you can get the bonus RAD for doing both dungeon RQ, many people will still do the LRQ. They should not give bonus RAD for LRQ to people who qualifies for ERQ.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
When a new player hits level 70 on first character what are they ~6K item level maybe? So if they can't queue for a leveling dungeon to get a small bit of AD per day they will have to hit 10K item level and unlock the skirmishes to get their first Random category opened right? I doubt many people would stick that out, then we lose most new players and the game dies. The more you analyze the random queue system the worse it looks :P
The lock starts at level 64 if you don't have the 7.5k il needed for Master of the Hunt. Once you hit level 70 the il requirement jumps to 10k for the skirmishes.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
This is exactly what they were told would happen. Forcing people to run things the way THEY want it run is a recipe for disaster. Now you have to look at both sides of this too. From the perspective of the BIS folks at the final boss, they were coerced into running the random queue. They aren't there by choice. Of course they will get impatient if they have to wait for someone to show up at the door. They are just doing what the devs forced them to do. Previously, they would have just run this content solo and no lowbies would have gotten run over.
If they had killed everything as they went... & level 70's can one-shot with an AOE encounter or at-will, so there are no excuses... they wouldn't have been waiting.
This is exactly what they were told would happen. Forcing people to run things the way THEY want it run is a recipe for disaster. Now you have to look at both sides of this too. From the perspective of the BIS folks at the final boss, they were coerced into running the random queue. They aren't there by choice. Of course they will get impatient if they have to wait for someone to show up at the door. They are just doing what the devs forced them to do. Previously, they would have just run this content solo and no lowbies would have gotten run over.
If they had killed everything as they went... & level 70's can one-shot with an AOE encounter or at-will, so there are no excuses... they wouldn't have been waiting.
That is not entirely right. Speaking of normal SP, there are adds, that dont attack, if you dont get near to them. Some on the way, some in two big rooms. Should you pull and kill all of them, so a wandering player does not trigger them even, if they are out of the way and there is no valid reason, to pull them.
As I described before, in VT is a spawn at the first campfire, when you killed the first groups of trash adds. Are we supposed, to go back and kill the spawn, so the 5 min AFK slackers dont get killed by them? As I said before, there is no problem in doing your share and more, but EVERYONE should be able to contribute something and if a player cant kill one add in a leveling dungeon or 3 players get killed by 3 adds in VT, I wont take the blame for not killing respawns etc.
For people under 30 the reward would be high XP and gold gain over AD.
Why is it that so many think players below 70, or in this case below 30, do not need AD? The whole game is based on AD and to say any character does not need it is just being dishonest about the value to AD in the ability to level and obtain valued items in the game.
In the end, no matter what developers do, it is up to us players to make the game fun and enjoyable for others. Don't be !@#$ to others and help each other to have fun!
My experience was somewhat different. Queued up for random dungeon with my lvl 68 GF and got Cloak Tower, so first thing I did was check levels and saw we have a lvl 70 well geared TR and a lvl 13 CW. The TR dashed off like mad and went stealthy everytime he could so he could rush forward. As a tank and as a gamer I knew the CW would have issues there seeing he/she was mainly white and green geared and no companion. So I adjusted my tempo to the CW. The TR kept rushing forward while we did the killing along the way and at some point the TR began to HAMSTER about our speed. So I told the CW to also make sure he/she took all nodes just incase there were intentions to craft at some point, took him/her to the various chests aswel to make sure nothing got left behind. Explained some stuff as it became clear it was actually a new player and just moved on in his/her pace.
SO we were at some point just where the 2nd boss spawns when the TR triggered the gate for the last boss and then the TR began a real rant about us noobs and us keeping him back in his valuable gametime. So I explained him that as a tank my responcebility was to defend those who might struggle or even die a few times while progressing. The real insults that got flung over then in party chat were not something that really promotes a lot of goodwill towards that new player, so I advised him/her to think about putting the TR on ignore as I was about to.
We went on on our tempo to the end gate and after killing the boss the TR logged off seemingly because about 30 seconds later I get a PM from a lvl 4 TR insulting me more about the dungeon run and my lack of gear etc. Slapped that account on ignore too.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,095Arc User
As I described before, in VT is a spawn at the first campfire, when you killed the first groups of trash adds. Are we supposed, to go back and kill the spawn, so the 5 min AFK slackers dont get killed by them? As I said before, there is no problem in doing your share and more, but EVERYONE should be able to contribute something and if a player cant kill one add in a leveling dungeon or 3 players get killed by 3 adds in VT, I wont take the blame for not killing respawns etc.
How about simply opening the door at the top of the stairs that lead to/from the spawn point?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Just for fun I ran three, three man dungeons; 1-with a new level 70 DC, 2-with a level 35 GF and 3-with a level 60 OP...
In every case at least one player takes off running ahead before everybody even materializes, SW's and GWF's often used their accelerated run to get ahead of everyone else so there was no way I or another player could keep up since we didn't have their run speed - but we followed along to the best of our ability.
Fortunately in every instance the better equipped player who ran ahead disposed of most of the opponents (and ran over the traps) so there wasn't much hinderance for the slower players, however in one instance a player left the map because I my level 63 OP stayed with a level 16 HR player. Since it was their first time in the Cloak Tower they were taking their time looking around I didn't mind but I'm guessing the level 70 DC with us did since she left in the middle of the map.
Anyway as I said every player who chose to run ahead and didn't leave in the middle of the dungeon, thoughtfully took care of the bad guys and no one complained when they arrived at the boss gate and it took a while for the remaining party to catch up.
But I acknowledge there have past been instances where someone runs ahead, bypasses some or all of the bad guys keys the boss gate then gripes because slower players art taking so long, but my personal experience is this is happening much less than it did before the random queue.
I can sympathize with the people who are only about the AD's at the end - they aren't hard to spot, they power ahead, sometimes taking care of opponents sometime not, never bothering to pick up any of the drops, open chests... things like that - they are all about the end result... But especially with the random queue, not everyone in the party is only about the chest at the end, some people are doing those dungeons for the first time and want to look around a bit, others want to pick up dropped coins, scrolls, gear and trinkets and there should be some accomodation for them as well... the only real place for "might makes it right", is PVP...
At least those are just my thoughts.
Post edited by dionchi on
DD~
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Just for fun I ran three, three man dungeons; 1-with a new level 70 DC, 2-with a level 35 GF and 3-with a level 60 OP...
In every case at least one player takes off running ahead before everybody even materializes, SW's and GWF's often used their accelerated run to get ahead of everyone else so there was no way I or another player could keep up since we didn't have their run speed - but we followed along to the best of our ability.
Fortunately in every instance the better equipped player who ran ahead disposed of most of the opponents (and ran over the traps) so there wasn't much hinderance for the slower players, however in one instance a player left the map because I my level 63 OP stayed with a level 16 HR player. Since it was their first time in the Cloak Tower they were taking their time looking around I didn't mind but I'm guessing the level 70 DC with us did since she left in the middle of the map.
Anyway as I said every player who chose to run ahead and didn't leave in the middle of the dungeon, thoughtfully took care of the bad guys and no one complained when they arrived at the boss gate and it took a while for the remaining party to catch up.
And this is more or less the polite desired outcome. Those who ran for AD were patient/polite enough to wait and not berate the newbie and the newbie tried to move forward.
And once the forward stopped the level 70 just left. If I was running 10-20 chars for AD I would have left too, nothing rude about it.
But my point is, is this what we want by design ? When a new player joins a a dungeon the first time, do they want the expiriance to be walking a trail of corpses with a purple ping "Your party awaits you"?
And as a high level player, waiting for level 15 newbie is what they are there for?
In those cases, the resolution was "peaceful", no mothers were mentioned, no ignores were used, etc.. But were both parties satisfied? IMO not even close. The new player didn't get anything close to a dungeon expiriance, and the veteran waste time and only frustrated for the lack of progress in their game.
But I acknowledge there have past been instances where someone runs ahead, bypasses some or all of the bad guys keys the boss gate then gripes because slower players art taking so long, but my personal experience is this is happening much less than it did before the random queue.
I can sympathize with the people who are only about the AD's at the end - they aren't hard to spot, they power ahead, sometimes taking care of opponents sometime not, never bothering to pick up any of the drops, open chests... things like that - they are all about the end result... But especially with the random queue, not everyone in the party is only about the chest at the end, some people are doing those dungeons for the first time and want to look around a bit, others want to pick up dropped coins, scrolls, gear and trinkets and there should be some accomodation for them as well... the only real place for "might makes it right", is PVP...
At least those are just my thoughts.
Nothing here is about might make it right. It's only about different types thrown together into the same place. A simple comparison will be organizing a tour and instead of making one long 5mile foot track for 20+ years old trek loving people, one with night clubs etc.. for their crowd and museums and sites for the appropriate customers. You take everyone together and shove them into a trek. So you end up with art/history 70 years olds really 'enjoying' the 5 mile 'walk'..etc... The trekers love the group speed at 0miles per hour. And the club goers really enjoying it all, they signed up for a casino and got no one know what.
Everyone can be polite about it. Try their best to accommodate. But at the end, if someone asks "Did you enjoy your trip?" The answer for most will be no. And this is on the trip organizers.
And remember, eventually anyone below 12K IL will be forced into leveling dungeons for daily RAD and will be removed from the Dungeoneers Shards dungeon quest.
That is the way Epic Random Queue is designed to develope. As new higher gates come in for Heroes' Accord, everything below that gateway drops into the same slot as VT, ECC, EToS and Malabogs... the assumption being that everyone who matters will have already got there before the new mod drops...
But... new players who begin their NWO experience at that point will look at leveling Dungeons, and realise that they will have to get from where they are as rank beginners to 12K... as well as unlocking FBI, MSPC, TONG, and whatever else comes in the next few mods, before they ever get past being viewed and regarded as "Noobs"...
While many people will enjoy the "As long as I'm alright Jack..." mentality, that system will only slow any potential growth within the game long term. It will be harder for guilds to reach the dizzy heights of L20 since many of those smaller guilds will not be able to produce the required dungeoneers shards to advance. And character growth to 12K based on new RP rules is no guarantee that 12K is affordable for many newer players, (let alone the grind involved in unlocking all the campaign gateways from SKT upward to whatever the next few mods add on top of the current three highest end game campaigns)
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Nothing here is about might make it right. It's only about different types thrown together into the same place. A simple comparison will be organizing a tour and instead of making one long 5mile foot track for 20+ years old trek loving people, one with night clubs etc.. for their crowd and museums and sites for the appropriate customers. You take everyone together and shove them into a trek. So you end up with art/history 70 years olds really 'enjoying' the 5 mile 'walk'..etc... The trekers love the group speed at 0miles per hour. And the club goers really enjoying it all, they signed up for a casino and got no one know what.
Everyone can be polite about it. Try their best to accommodate. But at the end, if someone asks "Did you enjoy your trip?" The answer for most will be no. And this is on the trip organizers.
A lovely analogy. Hits the nail on the head. The only question is if Cryptic - devs or management, whoever is responsible - will admit to their error and correct (roll back) it. If you ask me, they will remain silent for a long time still before they react.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
edited November 2017
Let us revisit these goals set by the Dev. I already commented these goals either does not make sense or could not be achieved before mod 12b landed in the preview thread.
Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
Goal 1: I am not sure if it is achieved. May be it does fire up in a reasonable time frame. That does not mean it can be finished or be finished in a reasonable time frame. Not an improvement. Goal 2: I don't even understand the burnout part. People could choose the same variety of the dungeon as what is offered now. Losing the selection choice (to obtain AD) hardly reduces burnout. It increases burn up though. Not an improvement. Goal 3: That is not even a solution of a problem. RQ is the cause of something not clear. Not an improvement. Goal 4: I guess this is an improvement for certain sector of capable players. However, I don't think these people like the implementation to achieve this goal. Goal 5: What was the problem regarding role before mod 12b? How does RQ make it better? Does it make it better? Goal 6: I don't think new player considers the current environment is a more positive environment. IMO, it is a more negative environment.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Let us revisit these goals set by the Dev. I already commented these goals either does not make sense or could not be achieved before mod 12b landed in the preview thread.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
OK, they got me... How does implementing a flat 11K, FBI, MSPC and Everfrost lockout incentivize anyone to start playing a NEW character? Cos that' got to be the goal right?
"Damn these queues... even despite the new Random Queue system they still aren't firing fast enough for me... I know what! I'll start a DC and level it up so that I can help! OK it will take me the next three months and doing the square root of naff all on my main, but hell it will be worth it to see those queues popping like corn!"
Is the whole queues firing faster thing dependent on this goal or... I dunno... it seems that if the other stuff isn;t going to help to the point where they need new clerics and tanks, isn't this goal a bit... desperate?
The inability for active players to disassociate themselves from negative players/the inability for staff to effectively prevent negative players from impacting positive players > (insert negative player reaction(s)/changes)
"This is why we can't have nice things"
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I like the RQ system (not so much the IL locking for stronghold quests) so will propose another solution.
With the age of this game most high levels want the quick approach of random queue's. Press k, select, then in. I have no issue with this. Keep the random queues as is, if a lowbie joins through RQ they take the risk of being grouped with high levels (even could state that in the description of the random queues). This allows for high level players or alts to get through quick whilst keeping the devs desire to have all dungeons run and not ignored.
To resolve the lowbies unwillingly joining, why not simply bring back the way you used to join dungeons for them; by entering from the map and placing them in a separate zone leveled dungeon (most of the doors are still there, just not clickable). A new lowbie (not alt) would be following the story line of the zone through quests or essentially that's what I assume the developers want. The entire zone quest line always brought you up to the dungeon door and handed your last quest at or near the door. That last quest was generally the dungeon.
Make it so that when they get the quest it explains they have to go to the dungeon door to enter a separate dungeon just for lowbies, essentially unlocking that particular dungeon so that it is clickable in the Queue menu. This would then allow lowbies to have their own way of getting to a zoned dungeon (without high levels in a rush), keeping the storyline for the zone intact and also reuse old and existing game assets easily.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
With the age of this game most high levels want the quick approach of random queue's. Press k, select, then in. I have no issue with this. Keep the random queues as is, if a lowbie joins through RQ they take the risk of being grouped with high levels (even could state that in the description of the random queues). This allows for high level players or alts to get through quick whilst keeping the devs desire to have all dungeons run and not ignored. .
Why do you need RQ to do that? We could do that before mod 12b. K, private queue. Choose a dungeon to solo. Take AD home.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Why do you need RQ to do that? We could do that before mod 12b. K, private queue. Choose a dungeon to solo. Take AD home.
Because a private queue doesn't resolve the devs want for all dungeons to be used and not ignored. All private queues did was - person chooses quickest dungeon = reward. This then further effected another point the devs stated as a goal, to reduce wait times due to people soloing through the content rather than grouping.
I have a different take on it. I think a big part of the problem is the leveling dungeons themselves.
Leveling dungeons used to require five players, not three. At that time, the dungeons served a critical function: they were opportunities for new players to learn group tactics and cohesion. This is especially important because NWO was and still is supposed to be solo-friendly, and most players spend far more hours soloing than grouped. It's not Everquest, which is why I'm here and no longer there. Changing the requirement was, in my opinion, a tragic mistake.
When they were changed to require three players, the designer(s) compounded the problem by removing half of the enemies from said leveling dungeons. This made it easier for three low-level players to run them, but it also trivialized the content for anyone even just a little bit higher in level. The net effect only encourages the worst in people. While certain individuals will say here that they never leave someone behind (and I'm one of you), you know as well as I that, if we queue up for a leveling dungeon, in the ***vast*** majority of cases we will be dealing with someone speedrunning it to get to the end chest as quickly as possible -- without regard for whoever else is in the party. You know it's true. When the leveling dungeons were built for five players with their original enemy complement, it was a lot harder for players to get away with running ahead alone.
As a side note, this also instills some really bad habits in players once they do level up. If I had a nickel for every time a TR ran ahead alone in an epic dungeon, then ragequit after dying for the fifth time (because the cleric, much less the rest of the party couldn't keep up with him), I'd have a lot more nickels. It's a bad idea to allow players to get used to speedrunning group content when learning the game. It's a really bad idea.
Finally, I think the down-leveling mechanism needs to be made smarter. It will lower your base stats but will not lower stats from equipment. It needs to, plain and simple. Do it right and this type of antisocial behavior will cease.
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
... Goal 3: That is not even a solution of a problem. RQ is the cause of something not clear. Not an improvement. ...
While I agree on most of what you write, I contradict on this point. The change they made for this special point is a very, very nice QoL improvement. I play up to 8 chars per day but to different daytimes. Sometimes I have the time to finish the tasks for one char at once, sometimes I have to split the tasks to different daytimes. I admit, before that change I lost the overview of which char did how many dungeons/skirmishes yet. This change helped me a lot to keep a better overview of finished tasks for my chars.
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Just for fun I ran three, three man dungeons; 1-with a new level 70 DC, 2-with a level 35 GF and 3-with a level 60 OP...
-snip-
-snip- Everyone can be polite about it. Try their best to accommodate. But at the end, if someone asks "Did you enjoy your trip?" The answer for most will be no. And this is on the trip organizers.
The old saying: "you can't please everyone" comes to mind...
Admittedly I didn't ask everyone if they "enjoyed the trip", after every run... I'm presuming everyone of the higher level players I teamed with, except the DC who either bailed or got disconnected got the AD payout at the end they came for.
The lower level players got experience, whatever gear they decided to pick up and possibly their own AD payout - if they had a key, (personally I think everyone should get something, at the end of a dungeon, AD's, a seal, some kind of special gear, something).
The only reason I can think of for someone not to be happy at the completion of a random dungeon is because they didn't get to go as fast/slow as they wanted to -
They didn't get to participate (slaying the bad guys, opening the doors, etc.) as much as they wanted to -
They felt imposed upon because they felt they did all the work -
Or because what they got at the end wasn't as good or as much as they wanted -
But then players can always re-queue and run the content again and hopefully have a better experience - unless it is all about the accumulation of more wealth as quickly as possible and they just don't want to admit it.
I will concede there could be a change considered for higher level, better equipped and more experienced players to run higher level, more challenging dungeons and the lower "leveling" dungeons for players without the high level gear and experience - but then I think there should be some kind of lockout where low level players can't run the higher level dungeons (people speed leveling without playing any of the game content comes to mind) and the higher level players can't run the lower level dungeons (all the high gear level 70's running Cloak Tower comes to mind) - but there isn't. There may be later, but there isn't anything like that presently.
As things are it seems to me the most reasonable course of action is for anyone who isn't enjoying what they are doing, even if it is content they used to enjoy but don't anymore, is for them to stop doing it... but realistically how many players are going to do that?
Why not gate AD rewards behind the leveling skirmishes instead of the leveling dungeons?
That way, new and leveling players can get some AD that they need to progress, without their experience being ruined by level 70 speedrunners. To avoid the situation with people making characters just to exploit something like the Blacklake Terror skirmish, you can make the AD rewards scale by level, so Blacklake Terror would only give small amount of AD, and Aberrant Assault would give a much larger amount of AD.
With the leveling dungeons, you can have rewards that are appropriate for leveling players - maybe an XP booster, or epic leveling gear that might salvage only for 500-1000 AD or so but would be much more useful for new players to actually equip, but the salvage value really wouldn't be worth it for level 70 speedrunners.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Just for fun I ran three, three man dungeons; 1-with a new level 70 DC, 2-with a level 35 GF and 3-with a level 60 OP...
-snip-
-snip- Everyone can be polite about it. Try their best to accommodate. But at the end, if someone asks "Did you enjoy your trip?" The answer for most will be no. And this is on the trip organizers.
The old saying: "you can't please everyone" comes to mind...
Admittedly I didn't ask everyone if they "enjoyed the trip", after every run... I'm presuming everyone of the higher level players I teamed with, except the DC who either bailed or got disconnected got the AD payout at the end they came for.
The lower level players got experience, whatever gear they decided to pick up and possibly their own AD payout - if they had a key, (personally I think everyone should get something, at the end of a dungeon, AD's, a seal, some kind of special gear, something).
The only reason I can think of for someone not to be happy at the completion of a random dungeon is because they didn't get to go as fast/slow as they wanted to -
They didn't get to participate (slaying the bad guys, opening the doors, etc.) as much as they wanted to -
They felt imposed upon because they felt they did all the work -
Or because what they got at the end wasn't as good or as much as they wanted -
But then players can always re-queue and run the content again and hopefully have a better experience - unless it is all about the accumulation of more wealth as quickly as possible and they just don't want to admit it.
I will concede there could be a change considered for higher level, better equipped and more experienced players to run higher level, more challenging dungeons and the lower "leveling" dungeons for players without the high level gear and experience - but then I think there should be some kind of lockout where low level players can't run the higher level dungeons (people speed leveling without playing any of the game content comes to mind) and the higher level players can't run the lower level dungeons (all the high gear level 70's running Cloak Tower comes to mind) - but there isn't. There may be later, but there isn't anything like that presently.
As things are it seems to me the most reasonable course of action is for anyone who isn't enjoying what they are doing, even if it is content they used to enjoy but don't anymore, is for them to stop doing it... but realistically how many players are going to do that?
Yet, the problem is that you pleased no-one! The following issue is that, if you are the tourist and you went to such trip, will you go again? That will be a no.
NW is not the only MMO out there, other MMOs handle this much more gracefully, so in our analogy, why would I go to the same organizer if a on the same street I can have it better. I've tried once/twice etc.., because the trip name had "D&D" in it, but the expiriance was bad, so I shall go to the competition. This is obviously the most relevant to new players, but not only.
You don't need to ask after every run. Simply search the forums, search reddit, and what you will find?! Newcomers complain about level 70 players roflstomping the dungeons, ruining their expiriance, and they ask "Is the whole game like that?" "Ive tried twice, and I quit" You can find "Dungeon Etiquette" posts..
Running behind someone trying to keep up is not experiencing a dungeon. Repeatedly waiting for a slow newbie is not progressing in MMO (and I don't mean newbie as a noob). The whole point for leveling dungeons is for people to get to know how to play in group, what skills better to use, how not repel. By the time they get to the actual content, they are not scared of group queuing. What they will learn there? How to run? How to follow the corpse trail ? Sorry, not working. And not interesting. It perhaps cool to see once, twice, but the novelty ends very fast.
Also new players do not gain much at all. AFAIK no AD, gear is irrelevant, and XP as in XP points for char leveling.... You can level without any group content (it was mostly disabled at mod6 for a long time) in a weekend. NW doesn't suffer from leveling up issues. The normal leveling "path" is broken in terms that you will out-level the quest line.
ut then players can always re-queue and run the content again and hopefully have a better experience - unless it
I'm sorry, but this is not acceptable.
I come into a restaurant, and:
1. The food is under-cooked or burned. 2. Spices are all wrong. 3. The service is rude and horrible. 4. The meal so late, I got the desert before the salad. 5. There are roaches running around.
And you tell me:
"Come again tomorrow and hopefully you get a better expiriance"
Why? How? Why? And Why? I will not go again. I'll go to whatever site rates restaurants and try to warn even my worst enemies about that place. There is a place for Masochism, but restaurants are not it (well, mostly I guess), and so are dungeon runs (I guess that too is mostly, unless it is with a proper dungeon.....) And this is how restaurants die. And so are MMOs.
all about the accumulation of more wealth as quickly as possible and they just don't want to admit it.
What you mean not to admit it? Or what you think a level 70 person will do in a 3 people leveling dungeon, repeatedly on multiple alts? Look at the scenery? Try to open negotiation back-channels with the Orcs in pursue of peace in NW?
The whole point of contention is that level 70 people are 'forced' to do leveling dungeons to gain AD. They didn't, few weeks ago, because they did eToS. Now they do. So, no, it's not for world peace, nor the great visuals, It's for the AD, and only for the AD.
I will concede there could be a change considered for higher level, better equipped and more experienced players to run higher level, more challenging dungeons and the lower "leveling" dungeons for players without the high level gear and experience - but then I think there should be some kind of lockout where low level players can't run the higher level dungeons (people speed leveling without playing any of the game content comes to mind) and the higher level players can't run the lower level dungeons (all the high gear level 70's running Cloak Tower comes to mind) - but there isn't. There may be later, but there isn't anything like that presently.
There are many things that do not exist presently, for example there was AD in eToS. Now it was removed. The whole premise of RQ is to shovel high amount of players into leveling dungeons queue, to make it pop in a timely fashion. You can search the same forum posts, reddit, etc.. or just try / ask on consoles, how much time it takes for a lowbe to queue for non popular leveling dungeon now. RQ meant to solve that, it's actually not the first attempt at the issue, it started with making it 3 people with no role restriction. But in any case, the mentality of the solution is wrong.
A good idea: "I'm going to help a lowbie to get through and maybe show them the ropes and get some bonus for that, like bonus AD"
A bad idea: "Lets make the main AD generation leveling dungeons"
Possible ideas for the same issue: 1. And at the end of the dungeon lets pop an interface that will allow to thumbs up/down the players, In this case, we should only allow lowbie (true one, no 70 on account) to vote on the 70. The 70 will get a tip (more AD).
2. 'Mentor program' people who specifically sign up, they can see how many people awaiting some leveling queue and can join there.
3. Same RQ, but different AD split. Making epic dungeons the earner, and not the leveling dungeons. And not solely RQ. RQ gives more to someone who wishes to risk it. But doing regular dungeon still gives AD (Obviously no double dipping, after done one you get only the 'repeat' AD from the same category)
And this is just thinking here while typing, I'm sure as a collective there are many ideas, and opinions, and some even a minor percent can be made into a viable and better system.
We, the players, warned about the side effects. It was obvious to anyone who plays the game, and yet, no steps were taken to make the new player expiriance better. Only quantity (Queue pop/ time) no, quality (Was the run good or bad) addressed. And now we are here. This repercussions of this will not be evident immediately, but only much later. This thread is an expiriance of one person. There are many others who will not post, but quit, others who will like the "did nothing got loot" At the end this can change the mixture of the population and it's size and in half year we will see...
And I wonder, when the game encourages the "no worries, someone HAMSTER will carry us in queue, like in leveling dungeons" because all those who wanted to learn left this restaurant, how this will end.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited November 2017
I have a suggestion until a new player unlock one of : fbi or sp he is able to use random leveling queue. Once he unlocks fbi sp he is no longer able to play the random leveling queue. That solves the "concern" hey how i will earn ad to make 10k item level to go fbi sp and also blocks the strong players from the leveling queue and force them to play the epic one which is for their level.
I think this is all more a case of people seeing the extreme cases and calling them the norm than anything else. I am a returning player and came back right before the random queues started (like 4 days before). I have leveled 2 characters from around level 14-16 or so to level 70 in the random queue since it started. These characters only got xp from the random dungeon queue and did nothing else, so that is a large number of runs. I had high level players leave me behind a few times (less than 4 or 5 times) in all those run but they came back and helped me if I got stuck those times. I did not get kicked from a single group.
We as humans see the bad and call it the norm even if it is just happening a very small percentage of the time. It happens even more in MMO communities. I am not saying that low level people or people that can't keep up with a high level running through a dungeon are not being kicked or having problems, I am saying that it is very unlikely happening to a statistically significant number of lower level players. Will it happen to some? YES, there is no doubt about that. Will those people come on the forums and make a post like this one about it? It is possible, maybe even likely. Will the people who are having good experiences with the random queue come on here and start a thread about their good experiences with the random queue? Very very very unlikely.
We as human beings are much more likely to complain about something that rubbed us the wrong way than give praise for something we enjoyed. I am going to break with the norm and say I liked my experience with the random queue in just about every one of the runs I did getting those two characters to 70. although I can't even begin to estimate how many runs it was.
When I am on my higher level more geared characters I make sure that I kill all the monsters so the low level/slower people can keep up just like most of the people who were in the runs did for me.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,223Arc User
... Goal 3: That is not even a solution of a problem. RQ is the cause of something not clear. Not an improvement. ...
While I agree on most of what you write, I contradict on this point. The change they made for this special point is a very, very nice QoL improvement. I play up to 8 chars per day but to different daytimes. Sometimes I have the time to finish the tasks for one char at once, sometimes I have to split the tasks to different daytimes. I admit, before that change I lost the overview of which char did how many dungeons/skirmishes yet. This change helped me a lot to keep a better overview of finished tasks for my chars.
But, that has absolutely nothing to do with RQ. They can make thing clear without RQ. What I am trying to say is this is not a feature of RQ or RQ is not a "solution" to clarify dungeon bonus.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I have a suggestion until a new player unlock one of : fbi or sp he is able to use random leveling queue. Once he unlocks fbi sp he is no longer able to play the random leveling queue. That solves the "concern" hey how i will earn ad to make 10k item level to go fbi sp and also blocks the strong players from the leveling queue and force them to play the epic one which is for their level.
Unfortunately if they drop FBI or MSP, said new L70 will get bent and speared; the content will kill them and the people who are better equipped will probably loathe them. Specially if they are tank or healer. The problem with RQ in that regard is that the 7500 IL gate to T1 dungeons and the 11K gate to play ERQ are so disparate that when someone creeps over the 11k line, even if they have unlocked both FBI and MSP, they won't be able to run the content.
Back when CN was the highest level dungeon and people complained that it was impossible to complete with a group who just fulfilled the requirement, it was pointed out that the required IL was just to get you through the door. Try it a few times, fail, and learn from those mitakes, eventually you'll improve as your IL does. Choosing to do it that way, meant that you would eventually find people along the way who will basically carry you. YOU had the choice to try for that content and risk getting booted.
Having a structure where people who know they aren't ready for a dungeon are dumped into it with potentialy other people who are not ready and then forcing them to stick it out is painful...
Please, someone explain to me where the variety and fun begins and ends in that scenario.
You shouldn;t have a system where "You have qualified for this therefore you mut play it!" But that's what ERQ pushes. Enforcing that further by removing the option to drop down a notch for new 11K players... nah.
Pretty much at any time lower level players and or higher level players can group up and queue together...
Instead of funneling themselves into the same system that will eventually put them together and more than likely result in both groups not liking the result:
- Low level players wanting to get the "full" experience of leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no higher level players "ruining" their experience.
- High level players wanting to speed run leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no lower level players slowing them down.
It's so simple that seemingly it's hard and doesn't require changing the system but rather players changing the manner in which they utilize it...
If you random queue alone you are willfully putting yourself into a possibly compromising situation, lower level players getting left behind, higher level players being slowed down...
Players can't really complain when they could simply group up and queue random...
BTW suggesting that only lower level players should have access to leveling dungeons is quite selfish. A number of players (both lower and higher level) utilize the RAD from leveling dungeons/skirmishes and preventing the higher level players from being able to receive RAD from them is "discrimination" to state it the least.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Comments
Just take fib, tong and mps away from the epic q, and problem solved.
Devs watching closely. Lol. Halve bondings, introduce new ranks, throttle ad behind random queues... erm, you didn't need binoculars to see this coming.
Most of the time, you get something fast like eSoT, KR, VT, or even eToS. Even if you get something a bit longer like CN/eGWD/eCC, it is still kind of fast because the quality of toons in ERQ is much higher than pre-mod 12b public queue.
I've been spending like 30% less time in the game now, and making the same RAD as before. I don't even do the LRQ. But since you can get the bonus RAD for doing both dungeon RQ, many people will still do the LRQ. They should not give bonus RAD for LRQ to people who qualifies for ERQ.
As I described before, in VT is a spawn at the first campfire, when you killed the first groups of trash adds. Are we supposed, to go back and kill the spawn, so the 5 min AFK slackers dont get killed by them? As I said before, there is no problem in doing your share and more, but EVERYONE should be able to contribute something and if a player cant kill one add in a leveling dungeon or 3 players get killed by 3 adds in VT, I wont take the blame for not killing respawns etc.
Amen to this thought.
Queued up for random dungeon with my lvl 68 GF and got Cloak Tower, so first thing I did was check levels and saw we have a lvl 70 well geared TR and a lvl 13 CW.
The TR dashed off like mad and went stealthy everytime he could so he could rush forward.
As a tank and as a gamer I knew the CW would have issues there seeing he/she was mainly white and green geared and no companion. So I adjusted my tempo to the CW.
The TR kept rushing forward while we did the killing along the way and at some point the TR began to HAMSTER about our speed.
So I told the CW to also make sure he/she took all nodes just incase there were intentions to craft at some point, took him/her to the various chests aswel to make sure nothing got left behind.
Explained some stuff as it became clear it was actually a new player and just moved on in his/her pace.
SO we were at some point just where the 2nd boss spawns when the TR triggered the gate for the last boss and then the TR began a real rant about us noobs and us keeping him back in his valuable gametime.
So I explained him that as a tank my responcebility was to defend those who might struggle or even die a few times while progressing.
The real insults that got flung over then in party chat were not something that really promotes a lot of goodwill towards that new player, so I advised him/her to think about putting the TR on ignore as I was about to.
We went on on our tempo to the end gate and after killing the boss the TR logged off seemingly because about 30 seconds later I get a PM from a lvl 4 TR insulting me more about the dungeon run and my lack of gear etc.
Slapped that account on ignore too.
In every case at least one player takes off running ahead before everybody even materializes, SW's and GWF's often used their accelerated run to get ahead of everyone else so there was no way I or another player could keep up since we didn't have their run speed - but we followed along to the best of our ability.
Fortunately in every instance the better equipped player who ran ahead disposed of most of the opponents (and ran over the traps) so there wasn't much hinderance for the slower players, however in one instance a player left the map because I my level 63 OP stayed with a level 16 HR player. Since it was their first time in the Cloak Tower they were taking their time looking around I didn't mind but I'm guessing the level 70 DC with us did since she left in the middle of the map.
Anyway as I said every player who chose to run ahead and didn't leave in the middle of the dungeon, thoughtfully took care of the bad guys and no one complained when they arrived at the boss gate and it took a while for the remaining party to catch up.
But I acknowledge there have past been instances where someone runs ahead, bypasses some or all of the bad guys keys the boss gate then gripes because slower players art taking so long, but my personal experience is this is happening much less than it did before the random queue.
I can sympathize with the people who are only about the AD's at the end - they aren't hard to spot, they power ahead, sometimes taking care of opponents sometime not, never bothering to pick up any of the drops, open chests... things like that - they are all about the end result... But especially with the random queue, not everyone in the party is only about the chest at the end, some people are doing those dungeons for the first time and want to look around a bit, others want to pick up dropped coins, scrolls, gear and trinkets and there should be some accomodation for them as well... the only real place for "might makes it right", is PVP...
At least those are just my thoughts.
And once the forward stopped the level 70 just left. If I was running 10-20 chars for AD I would have left too, nothing rude about it.
But my point is, is this what we want by design ? When a new player joins a a dungeon the first time, do they want the expiriance to be walking a trail of corpses with a purple ping "Your party awaits you"?
And as a high level player, waiting for level 15 newbie is what they are there for?
In those cases, the resolution was "peaceful", no mothers were mentioned, no ignores were used, etc.. But were both parties satisfied?
IMO not even close. The new player didn't get anything close to a dungeon expiriance, and the veteran waste time and only frustrated for the lack of progress in their game.
Nothing here is about might make it right. It's only about different types thrown together into the same place. A simple comparison will be organizing a tour and instead of making one long 5mile foot track for 20+ years old trek loving people, one with night clubs etc.. for their crowd and museums and sites for the appropriate customers. You take everyone together and shove them into a trek. So you end up with art/history 70 years olds really 'enjoying' the 5 mile 'walk'..etc... The trekers love the group speed at 0miles per hour. And the club goers really enjoying it all, they signed up for a casino and got no one know what.
Everyone can be polite about it. Try their best to accommodate. But at the end, if someone asks "Did you enjoy your trip?" The answer for most will be no.
And this is on the trip organizers.
That is the way Epic Random Queue is designed to develope. As new higher gates come in for Heroes' Accord, everything below that gateway drops into the same slot as VT, ECC, EToS and Malabogs... the assumption being that everyone who matters will have already got there before the new mod drops...
But... new players who begin their NWO experience at that point will look at leveling Dungeons, and realise that they will have to get from where they are as rank beginners to 12K... as well as unlocking FBI, MSPC, TONG, and whatever else comes in the next few mods, before they ever get past being viewed and regarded as "Noobs"...
While many people will enjoy the "As long as I'm alright Jack..." mentality, that system will only slow any potential growth within the game long term. It will be harder for guilds to reach the dizzy heights of L20 since many of those smaller guilds will not be able to produce the required dungeoneers shards to advance. And character growth to 12K based on new RP rules is no guarantee that 12K is affordable for many newer players, (let alone the grind involved in unlocking all the campaign gateways from SKT upward to whatever the next few mods add on top of the current three highest end game campaigns)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goals of Random Queues
Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):- Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
- Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
- Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
- Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
- Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
- Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Goal 1: I am not sure if it is achieved. May be it does fire up in a reasonable time frame. That does not mean it can be finished or be finished in a reasonable time frame. Not an improvement.
Goal 2: I don't even understand the burnout part. People could choose the same variety of the dungeon as what is offered now. Losing the selection choice (to obtain AD) hardly reduces burnout. It increases burn up though. Not an improvement.
Goal 3: That is not even a solution of a problem. RQ is the cause of something not clear. Not an improvement.
Goal 4: I guess this is an improvement for certain sector of capable players. However, I don't think these people like the implementation to achieve this goal.
Goal 5: What was the problem regarding role before mod 12b? How does RQ make it better? Does it make it better?
Goal 6: I don't think new player considers the current environment is a more positive environment. IMO, it is a more negative environment.
How does implementing a flat 11K, FBI, MSPC and Everfrost lockout incentivize anyone to start playing a NEW character?
Cos that' got to be the goal right?
"Damn these queues... even despite the new Random Queue system they still aren't firing fast enough for me... I know what! I'll start a DC and level it up so that I can help! OK it will take me the next three months and doing the square root of naff all on my main, but hell it will be worth it to see those queues popping like corn!"
Is the whole queues firing faster thing dependent on this goal or... I dunno... it seems that if the other stuff isn;t going to help to the point where they need new clerics and tanks, isn't this goal a bit... desperate?
Unbound enchantments from Wanderer's Fortune/Fey Blessing/Dragon Hoard > AFK farmers/bots > Bound enchantments from WF/FB/DF
Players manually queuing the easiest content for bonus RAD > Random queue to get RAD (or salvage)
Players AFK farming Skirmishes/Dungeons/Heroic Encounters > Negatively impacts players that actively participate >(insert negative reaction(s))
The inability for active players to disassociate themselves from negative players/the inability for staff to effectively prevent negative players from impacting positive players > (insert negative player reaction(s)/changes)
"This is why we can't have nice things"
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
With the age of this game most high levels want the quick approach of random queue's. Press k, select, then in. I have no issue with this. Keep the random queues as is, if a lowbie joins through RQ they take the risk of being grouped with high levels (even could state that in the description of the random queues). This allows for high level players or alts to get through quick whilst keeping the devs desire to have all dungeons run and not ignored.
To resolve the lowbies unwillingly joining, why not simply bring back the way you used to join dungeons for them; by entering from the map and placing them in a separate zone leveled dungeon (most of the doors are still there, just not clickable). A new lowbie (not alt) would be following the story line of the zone through quests or essentially that's what I assume the developers want. The entire zone quest line always brought you up to the dungeon door and handed your last quest at or near the door. That last quest was generally the dungeon.
Make it so that when they get the quest it explains they have to go to the dungeon door to enter a separate dungeon just for lowbies, essentially unlocking that particular dungeon so that it is clickable in the Queue menu. This would then allow lowbies to have their own way of getting to a zoned dungeon (without high levels in a rush), keeping the storyline for the zone intact and also reuse old and existing game assets easily.
Leveling dungeons used to require five players, not three. At that time, the dungeons served a critical function: they were opportunities for new players to learn group tactics and cohesion. This is especially important because NWO was and still is supposed to be solo-friendly, and most players spend far more hours soloing than grouped. It's not Everquest, which is why I'm here and no longer there. Changing the requirement was, in my opinion, a tragic mistake.
When they were changed to require three players, the designer(s) compounded the problem by removing half of the enemies from said leveling dungeons. This made it easier for three low-level players to run them, but it also trivialized the content for anyone even just a little bit higher in level. The net effect only encourages the worst in people. While certain individuals will say here that they never leave someone behind (and I'm one of you), you know as well as I that, if we queue up for a leveling dungeon, in the ***vast*** majority of cases we will be dealing with someone speedrunning it to get to the end chest as quickly as possible -- without regard for whoever else is in the party. You know it's true. When the leveling dungeons were built for five players with their original enemy complement, it was a lot harder for players to get away with running ahead alone.
As a side note, this also instills some really bad habits in players once they do level up. If I had a nickel for every time a TR ran ahead alone in an epic dungeon, then ragequit after dying for the fifth time (because the cleric, much less the rest of the party couldn't keep up with him), I'd have a lot more nickels. It's a bad idea to allow players to get used to speedrunning group content when learning the game. It's a really bad idea.
Finally, I think the down-leveling mechanism needs to be made smarter. It will lower your base stats but will not lower stats from equipment. It needs to, plain and simple. Do it right and this type of antisocial behavior will cease.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
Admittedly I didn't ask everyone if they "enjoyed the trip", after every run... I'm presuming everyone of the higher level players I teamed with, except the DC who either bailed or got disconnected got the AD payout at the end they came for.
The lower level players got experience, whatever gear they decided to pick up and possibly their own AD payout - if they had a key, (personally I think everyone should get something, at the end of a dungeon, AD's, a seal, some kind of special gear, something).
The only reason I can think of for someone not to be happy at the completion of a random dungeon is because they didn't get to go as fast/slow as they wanted to -
They didn't get to participate (slaying the bad guys, opening the doors, etc.) as much as they wanted to -
They felt imposed upon because they felt they did all the work -
Or because what they got at the end wasn't as good or as much as they wanted -
But then players can always re-queue and run the content again and hopefully have a better experience - unless it is all about the accumulation of more wealth as quickly as possible and they just don't want to admit it.
I will concede there could be a change considered for higher level, better equipped and more experienced players to run higher level, more challenging dungeons and the lower "leveling" dungeons for players without the high level gear and experience - but then I think there should be some kind of lockout where low level players can't run the higher level dungeons (people speed leveling without playing any of the game content comes to mind) and the higher level players can't run the lower level dungeons (all the high gear level 70's running Cloak Tower comes to mind) - but there isn't. There may be later, but there isn't anything like that presently.
As things are it seems to me the most reasonable course of action is for anyone who isn't enjoying what they are doing, even if it is content they used to enjoy but don't anymore, is for them to stop doing it... but realistically how many players are going to do that?
That way, new and leveling players can get some AD that they need to progress, without their experience being ruined by level 70 speedrunners. To avoid the situation with people making characters just to exploit something like the Blacklake Terror skirmish, you can make the AD rewards scale by level, so Blacklake Terror would only give small amount of AD, and Aberrant Assault would give a much larger amount of AD.
With the leveling dungeons, you can have rewards that are appropriate for leveling players - maybe an XP booster, or epic leveling gear that might salvage only for 500-1000 AD or so but would be much more useful for new players to actually equip, but the salvage value really wouldn't be worth it for level 70 speedrunners.
The following issue is that, if you are the tourist and you went to such trip, will you go again? That will be a no.
NW is not the only MMO out there, other MMOs handle this much more gracefully, so in our analogy, why would I go to the same organizer if a on the same street I can have it better. I've tried once/twice etc.., because the trip name had "D&D" in it, but the expiriance was bad, so I shall go to the competition. This is obviously the most relevant to new players, but not only.
You don't need to ask after every run. Simply search the forums, search reddit, and what you will find?! Newcomers complain about level 70 players roflstomping the dungeons, ruining their expiriance, and they ask "Is the whole game like that?" "Ive tried twice, and I quit"
You can find "Dungeon Etiquette" posts..
Running behind someone trying to keep up is not experiencing a dungeon. Repeatedly waiting for a slow newbie is not progressing in MMO (and I don't mean newbie as a noob). The whole point for leveling dungeons is for people to get to know how to play in group, what skills better to use, how not repel. By the time they get to the actual content, they are not scared of group queuing.
What they will learn there? How to run? How to follow the corpse trail ? Sorry, not working. And not interesting. It perhaps cool to see once, twice, but the novelty ends very fast.
Also new players do not gain much at all. AFAIK no AD, gear is irrelevant, and XP as in XP points for char leveling.... You can level without any group content (it was mostly disabled at mod6 for a long time) in a weekend. NW doesn't suffer from leveling up issues. The normal leveling "path" is broken in terms that you will out-level the quest line.
I'm sorry, but this is not acceptable.
I come into a restaurant, and:
1. The food is under-cooked or burned.
2. Spices are all wrong.
3. The service is rude and horrible.
4. The meal so late, I got the desert before the salad.
5. There are roaches running around.
And you tell me:
"Come again tomorrow and hopefully you get a better expiriance"
Why? How? Why? And Why?
I will not go again. I'll go to whatever site rates restaurants and try to warn even my worst enemies about that place.
There is a place for Masochism, but restaurants are not it (well, mostly I guess), and so are dungeon runs (I guess that too is mostly, unless it is with a proper dungeon.....)
And this is how restaurants die. And so are MMOs.
all about the accumulation of more wealth as quickly as possible and they just don't want to admit it.
What you mean not to admit it? Or what you think a level 70 person will do in a 3 people leveling dungeon, repeatedly on multiple alts? Look at the scenery? Try to open negotiation back-channels with the Orcs in pursue of peace in NW?
The whole point of contention is that level 70 people are 'forced' to do leveling dungeons to gain AD. They didn't, few weeks ago, because they did eToS. Now they do.
So, no, it's not for world peace, nor the great visuals, It's for the AD, and only for the AD.
I will concede there could be a change considered for higher level, better equipped and more experienced players to run higher level, more challenging dungeons and the lower "leveling" dungeons for players without the high level gear and experience - but then I think there should be some kind of lockout where low level players can't run the higher level dungeons (people speed leveling without playing any of the game content comes to mind) and the higher level players can't run the lower level dungeons (all the high gear level 70's running Cloak Tower comes to mind) - but there isn't. There may be later, but there isn't anything like that presently.
There are many things that do not exist presently, for example there was AD in eToS. Now it was removed. The whole premise of RQ is to shovel high amount of players into leveling dungeons queue, to make it pop in a timely fashion.
You can search the same forum posts, reddit, etc.. or just try / ask on consoles, how much time it takes for a lowbe to queue for non popular leveling dungeon now.
RQ meant to solve that, it's actually not the first attempt at the issue, it started with making it 3 people with no role restriction.
But in any case, the mentality of the solution is wrong.
A good idea:
"I'm going to help a lowbie to get through and maybe show them the ropes and get some bonus for that, like bonus AD"
A bad idea:
"Lets make the main AD generation leveling dungeons"
Possible ideas for the same issue:
1. And at the end of the dungeon lets pop an interface that will allow to thumbs up/down the players,
In this case, we should only allow lowbie (true one, no 70 on account) to vote on the 70. The 70 will get a tip (more AD).
2. 'Mentor program' people who specifically sign up, they can see how many people awaiting some leveling queue and can join there.
3. Same RQ, but different AD split. Making epic dungeons the earner, and not the leveling dungeons. And not solely RQ. RQ gives more to someone who wishes to risk it. But doing regular dungeon still gives AD (Obviously no double dipping, after done one you get only the 'repeat' AD from the same category)
And this is just thinking here while typing, I'm sure as a collective there are many ideas, and opinions, and some even a minor percent can be made into a viable and better system.
We, the players, warned about the side effects. It was obvious to anyone who plays the game, and yet, no steps were taken to make the new player expiriance better. Only quantity (Queue pop/ time) no, quality (Was the run good or bad) addressed.
And now we are here. This repercussions of this will not be evident immediately, but only much later. This thread is an expiriance of one person. There are many others who will not post, but quit, others who will like the "did nothing got loot"
At the end this can change the mixture of the population and it's size and in half year we will see...
And I wonder, when the game encourages the "no worries, someone HAMSTER will carry us in queue, like in leveling dungeons" because all those who wanted to learn left this restaurant, how this will end.
Once he unlocks fbi sp he is no longer able to play the random leveling queue.
That solves the "concern" hey how i will earn ad to make 10k item level to go fbi sp and also blocks the strong players from the leveling queue and force them to play the epic one which is for their level.
We as humans see the bad and call it the norm even if it is just happening a very small percentage of the time. It happens even more in MMO communities. I am not saying that low level people or people that can't keep up with a high level running through a dungeon are not being kicked or having problems, I am saying that it is very unlikely happening to a statistically significant number of lower level players. Will it happen to some? YES, there is no doubt about that. Will those people come on the forums and make a post like this one about it? It is possible, maybe even likely. Will the people who are having good experiences with the random queue come on here and start a thread about their good experiences with the random queue? Very very very unlikely.
We as human beings are much more likely to complain about something that rubbed us the wrong way than give praise for something we enjoyed. I am going to break with the norm and say I liked my experience with the random queue in just about every one of the runs I did getting those two characters to 70. although I can't even begin to estimate how many runs it was.
When I am on my higher level more geared characters I make sure that I kill all the monsters so the low level/slower people can keep up just like most of the people who were in the runs did for me.
The problem with RQ in that regard is that the 7500 IL gate to T1 dungeons and the 11K gate to play ERQ are so disparate that when someone creeps over the 11k line, even if they have unlocked both FBI and MSP, they won't be able to run the content.
Back when CN was the highest level dungeon and people complained that it was impossible to complete with a group who just fulfilled the requirement, it was pointed out that the required IL was just to get you through the door. Try it a few times, fail, and learn from those mitakes, eventually you'll improve as your IL does.
Choosing to do it that way, meant that you would eventually find people along the way who will basically carry you. YOU had the choice to try for that content and risk getting booted.
Having a structure where people who know they aren't ready for a dungeon are dumped into it with potentialy other people who are not ready and then forcing them to stick it out is painful...
Please, someone explain to me where the variety and fun begins and ends in that scenario.
You shouldn;t have a system where "You have qualified for this therefore you mut play it!"
But that's what ERQ pushes.
Enforcing that further by removing the option to drop down a notch for new 11K players... nah.
Pretty much at any time lower level players and or higher level players can group up and queue together...
Instead of funneling themselves into the same system that will eventually put them together and more than likely result in both groups not liking the result:
- Low level players wanting to get the "full" experience of leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no higher level players "ruining" their experience.
- High level players wanting to speed run leveling dungeons > group up, queue together > no lower level players slowing them down.
It's so simple that seemingly it's hard and doesn't require changing the system but rather players changing the manner in which they utilize it...
If you random queue alone you are willfully putting yourself into a possibly compromising situation, lower level players getting left behind, higher level players being slowed down...
Players can't really complain when they could simply group up and queue random...
BTW suggesting that only lower level players should have access to leveling dungeons is quite selfish. A number of players (both lower and higher level) utilize the RAD from leveling dungeons/skirmishes and preventing the higher level players from being able to receive RAD from them is "discrimination" to state it the least.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen