I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, make an average player party, go into Tomb of the Nine Gods, and record it. By average I mean like most of those who will try (rank 7-9 enchantments, in best case r11 bonding, maybe not all artifacts on mythics, new blue gear because of IL, y'know), add them some boons so they'll be just above 12k IL.
Now try to run tong with 3 average dps, average dc, and average tank (preferably a Guardian fighter), and let's see how much time you'll need to finish it. Even with godmode, I seriously doubt it will take you less than 1-1,5 hours... Now, that leaver penalty of 30 minutes doesn't seem so bad.. Heck, I'd rather go with premade team in private queue and do it twice in that (at least an) hour that I'd be in otherwise, and I'll get at least 4 salvageable items so IDC about that "pathetic" 5k I'd get for losing my nerves by running for Hero's accord with a team that would take even msp 45+min.
The item level requirement for dungeons is to 'enter' the dungeon. Being able to 'enter' a dungeon does not mean you are guaranteed success in that dungeon nor does it guarantee an easy time therein. Many people in this game and on these forums seem keen on the idea that meeting the minimum requirement to enter a dungeon means they should be able to easily complete that dungeon. I'd like to remind everyone that this is not the case.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
I wonder how this "role" garbage will interact with loadouts. Role in party is more a matter of build than class selection. Just about every class has builds that work for at least two roles that the devs acknoledge to exist (tank, dps, and heals) some have viable builds for more roles than that.
Moreover the devs do not appear to grasp that we do not have three roles in the game we have atleast five: dps, tank, buff, debuff, and control. I am not sure if we should even count healing as a role anymore because its not really needed with lifesteal and certain companions.
On a healing sidenote the best healing class in the game is often a templock, but under the role system being espoused by the devs templocks would be considered dps.
On another side note: Whats to stop a paladin from entering a dungeon and as a healadin and counting as the healer and then switching to tankadin load out or entering as a tankadin and switching to a healadin loadout. In this senerio we will end up with two tanks or two healers something the devs dont want for some poorly explained reason.
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
I wonder how this "role" garbage will interact with loadouts. Role in party is more a matter of build than class selection. Just about every class has builds that work for at least two roles that the devs acknoledge to exist (tank, dps, and heals) some have viable builds for more roles than that.
Moreover the devs do not appear to grasp that we do not have three roles in the game we have atleast five: dps, tank, buff, debuff, and control. I am not sure if we should even count healing as a role anymore because its not really needed with lifesteal and certain companions.
On a healing sidenote the best healing class in the game is often a templock, but under the role system being espoused by the devs templocks would be considered dps.
On another side note: Whats to stop a paladin from entering a dungeon and as a healadin and counting as the healer and then switching to tankadin load out or entering as a tankadin and switching to a healadin loadout. In this senerio we will end up with two tanks or two healers something the devs dont want for some poorly explained reason.
Not entirely true from how I understand it, it seems to be the 2xDC thing they dislike, Pally Auras, are really limited to Courage and Wisdom, those don't stack. I don't know DC at all but am guessing due the current meta there is a distinct advantage to having two of them
The pally is not there for courage or wisdom they are there for the power share feat on the light tree
Aura of Courage is often-times the 2nd highest source of damage on a boss (right behind Sure Strike). Aura gifts is nice and all, but Aura of Courage ain't no slouch.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
You all better start addressing these excellent questions we have asked.If not then you have lied to us again just like the coals in vip when you removed them.If you ask for our input and we easily do your job showing a poor result and playability then the result you get will NOT be what you're looking for.Do you think perhaps the real dollars we spent on our alts is less than what is spent by new players? I am not trying to be anything but helpful as we all are. We love this game do you? It is time to make a statement devs or your silence will make it for you. And I for one am listening. It's my choice to finnish content on my alts not yours. SilverOak Main Dc alt tr alt pal alt
They aren't going to respond over the weekend obviously lol. It will be Tuesday most likely before we get any dev responses.
feedback: this is an overly complicated and unnecessary system
So I guess my first question is why does this have to be a completely new and frankly stupid system? Why not just add it as a new option to the old system? I for one don't have any issue running 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes daily. But I can understand some other players not liking that system and preferring the new system. Which is why it would make way more sense to just add it as a new option to the existing system.
I don't really like all the dungeons, some to the point where I refuse to play them at all as the rewards aren't worth the effort. And I know a lot of other players that feel the same way. So now we're going to be forced to possibly run dungeons we hate to earn our daily AD? And you really think this wont end up making players quit the game? I really don't understand how you think this make any sense.
"Keep in mind that for every player who had accepted that fate, there's another who upon learning that running Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity was needed to max out their AD, said "no thank you" and stopped playing. " <-- which is complete BS as you can run any dungeon to earn your daily AD including private solo que for Cloak Tower at lvl70. So that's 8 dungons and 12 epic dungeons and Im not sure if the epic trials counted or not but still, that's 20 dungeons you could choose from every day to earn your daily AD. So its not a problem with the system, its the players problem for not choosing to play something other then the same 2 dungeons everyday.
As for the skirmishes, well that is the Devs fault for only having 5 skirmishes to choose from. Illusionist's Gambit is just too long and becomes boring by the end, boring as is "geez, does this thing ever end". Prophecy of Madness has been broken since god knows when since. Its damn near impossible to get 3xgold reward so most players don't like running it... again, Devs fault but still not problem with the system.
And let me tell you something you obviously don't want to hear, THIS CHANGE WILL NOT STOP BOTTERS!!!
All this change will do is fill more low level ques with bots that will most likely screw over the honest players trying to earn their daily AD since the bots may not be able to complete a dungeon thus making it impossible for the player to complete it as well. And since they cant complete it they will be force to quit the dungeon and possibly get a penalty. So in the end you're are really just making it even harder for low level players to earn AD.
Oh yes, it will cut a little bit of their profits but since they're not actually sitting in front of the computer playing the game I doubt they will be very upset by it, unlike your real players.
With all these new changes Bonding stones, que system, how AD is earned, refining. Its starting to feel like mod 6 all over again. Remember when the devs thought all the "new and exciting" changes in mod 6 were a good idea? Yea, ask the mass players that quit and all the dev team members that got fired how that worked out. For gods sake learn from your past mistakes.
On the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, the que system and and how we earn daily AD should have been at the bottom of the list on page 23.
Ok, I can see that you've put a lot of time and effort into this. That much is pretty clear. And I/we really appreciate that! But I also think that you're missing a lot or were making assumptions on how this would be taken by the community. There will be collateral damage from a change of this magnitude. As already expressed explicitly, this I can see being Module 6 magnitude. Player don't like being forced to play in a particular way. Time is a precious commodity and when there is no predictability to game play player move to where there is!
Please consider: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana
...and I'm pretty sure you don't want a Mod 6 exodus like before.
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity. Certain queues aren't popular for a reason. Notably because they are time sinks for negligible reward (Reward still being something of anathema to your business model)
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety. Again, reward! The same content is run "ad nauseum" because it's the most efficient use of time against reward. You've had feedback "Ad nauseum" that you should bring back dungeons and skirmishes that were removed when Mod 6 hit. (I'm now utterly convinced that these have been lost/erased). Were you to reintroduce the missing content as variety, you'd have players dancing a jig for you!
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals. This is significantly more complex, so I don't think you've achieved you're goal here. I don't think it's a high priority to aim for either
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content. I like this as a goal, but you've received significant amounts of feedback asking you to look at the rewards coming from the chest. (i.e. a rank 5 and peridot)
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times. There are reasons that have been explained as to why this is the case. Incentivizing through class balance is a significantly better way to achieve this goal. There are classes that you guys have gone on the record to say you'll be focusing on next, but as of the last twitch video it's clear that you haven't touched them. You as a company lose trust from this and it makes players angry. Rolling out this as a development then makes players furious
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment. Wasn't this the whole object of Guilds? Collaboration in overcoming these goals, supporting new players coming in? You should really look at this previous objective rather than trying to shoehorn this system into the game
Please bear in mind and this is exceptionally important to note, this feature is still under development and every detail and value I outline below is subject to change.
I think the thing that sticks in my throat the most is the fact that we'd be forced to use the Random queue should we wish to earn AD. I don't like being forced to play in a particular way. I want some predictability! ...so I really hope that this is true when you say all this is subject to change!
This will probably be removed or get me baned from the forum but I just have to say this for some of the players that you as the develping team have forgotten.
Why is it we spent all this time working on guilds, then alliance's and building relationships with these people and now you want us to do dungeons with strangers? I understand that new people or small guilds may have problems doing content but we should not be penalized for this. Have them join guilds or alliances that are willing to help them grow. Now you are taking away AD from individuals that do not have the time to do a random because they could end up in a dungeon with people that could end up taking forever do to a lack of experience. I have people in my guild that can play 1 to 2 hours at the most a day, that gives them just enough time to do their dailies, solo a 3 man dungeon for a small amount of AD and then possible run 1 dungeon with the guild. They have been loyal to the game and now once again they are the ones being penalized, OH, did I forget to say that due to the time they can play they also dump large amounts of real money in the game for the things they need.
Now, I think the random queue is fine but has several failing issues, like I do not want to waste my time in MSP for a random rank 5 enchant nor do I want to be penalized because I get put with a group that has no chance of finishing it or with people that are rude and hateful. Plus I don't think that it is far for you to force us into this type of situation just so we can obtain AD. People need to take into account that just because players have a certain Item Level does not mean they can play well enough to even consider some of the high end dungeons and this type of group will fail, plus we lose all that time.
Most of my guild and alliance have decided that if changes to this are not done before implementation we will close our wallets and probably go play elsewhere. I have been here since Beta and so has 1/2 my guild, we have watched and been through many changes and excepted them but removing the ability of obtaining a small amount of AD from a lot of individuals with time issues is wrong. If you need to remove the AD from the dungeons due to botting then add a unbottable way for individuals with a short amount of time to obtain AD.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited September 2017
Ignoring our own selfish desires for a moment am going to project my capacity to earn AD on others here and make a couple of simple assumptions.
I dare say some here are in the bonding thread arguing over the bonding changes. How many here, should this come to pass, are going to have any problems forming premade 5 man teams and farming for example, eToS for salvage?
Personally, this isn't going to affect my ability to do salvage runs and earn significant AD from those runs. It will stop me running with friends with different ALTS to maximise our free AD on top of salvage we get.
I can think of 1 group who need this AD much more than I do, new players, PUGs with no choice but to use this system to get AD. It's like the end of GG where PUGs took a couple of months to realise they were being mercilessly farmed by the PvP guilds and eventually decided that it just wasn;t worth it.
You want to give everyone an equal chance? You are going to hurt the players who need this change the most. Players who have just started, a bit shy to join a guild, players without the gear necessary to complete the top tier content you are going to force them to play.
Now, this change doesn't affect me directly, it will not stop me running what I want with who I want. This change is going to drive the people away from the game who we need the most in the game. If you do not refresh the top players who leave these game with new players struggling to get to the top, we are going to ROT from the roots up.
@jumpingmorks They've basically shot themselves in the foot with the combination of these 2 updates. You'll have people not powerful enough to get in LFG groups due to people being more elitist than ever, and newbies getting turned away from the game because of it. Everyone becomes weaker AND everyone has a harder time finding a competent, working group in general. Neither of those are good, but the fact that everyone gets weaker probably breaks everything because you can just as easily get put into MSP with a bunch of 12k players who have never done it, because of freakkin' RNG. Not okay.
Nobody wants to spend two hours in an fbi or ecc with a group that can't get through just to get their daily a.d...
It's like you're trying to drive a huge wedge between end game and middle ground players... We struggle enough at a certain point to get from mid level to end game.
You hit about 13k and there's a wall of grinding to surpass that which is fine, it's end game, it's not supposed to be easy...
But putting a.d behind a wall that the people who need the a.d most can't get into is honestly stupid and doesn't make any sense... Honestly what are you guys doing over there? Trying to kill your own game?
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
they are solving a problem that doesnt exist.. new players benefit from same system as older ones.. its just the sheer armount of runs needed to gear up that is the real issue.
While some of the RP rework will make a few thigns cheaper.. they are actually extending costs in the end to a even higher level, while making it more difficult to achieve AD farming.
you didnt even have to play end game materials to make a end game build .. you just needed access to multiple runs of AD farming a day.. you could then buy a full set of Masterworks, and all the gear.. and be nearly the same as anyone else.. which is 100% fine by me.. I prefer not having to run hundreds of hours to restore gear.. I hate that in fact.
sure it takes thousands of said runs to do that.. but it TOOK thousands of said runs for me to do that too..
there wasnt any real shortcuts.. just farmed every day for a bunch of AD to make my toons viable.
if they wanted to help newer players.. lower costs on marks and such.. that is way more of a help then doing what they are doing with this garbage.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
the crazy part is.. only the truly snoby snobs RAN every end game dungeon with two dcs. so what.. a few hundred max a day like that?
most others just took 2 dps and 3 whatever.. gf/op/dc or drop one and add a mof or maybe do a combo of a sw with it.. that to me was the vast majority of runs lately.. this was such a huge issue you had to destroy the game..?
or is it simply to force campaign sales?
that seems more likely to me.
what a joke this whole thing is.. a sad nightmare of a joke.
First off, a random dungeon with friends might be fun, but a random super epic dungeon with pugs spells nightmare. Don't get me wrong not all pugs are jerks, I've met a few really nice ones, but on the whole my experience with pugs has not been so great. When I do pug I usually pug with a friend or two. My game time is very very limited I don't have the time to waste hours crawling through an epic with pugs. Besides that, I like the private que because if I or one of my friends gets dropped by the game, this happens too often, we have a chance to return and get something for our time spent. One of the reason a lot of people choose to run etos is most of the others epics have lousy drops. if you want more people to run some of the other epics make it more worth their time. It's not that etos has better drops it's the dungeon is fast and fun so one doesn't feel so bad when all one got was a purple ring and the daily dungeon ads and some seals. If you make the only way to get daily ads from dungeons be running the random pug groups then I for one will not do it. Just like I don't waste my time on pvp content.
As to the whole not wanting to make players feel doomed to a treadmill of etos, that is a joke. No one I have every known left the game because of having to run etos! They left because they found other things more fun like watching paint dry. Seriously, when we tell a new lvl 70 the grind is only beginning we are not referring to etos, we are talking about mind numbing things like endless fishing! Whatever were you thinking to keep adding maps with fishing? Funny thing is I even liked the fishing in the winterfest that was fun and quick, the other fishing isn't. Whenever I try it I'm left thinking what the eck am I doing this for!
I don't have a lot of game time to waste, and if you think this will get players to spend more real money on the game think again. most I've talk to don't mind spending money if they feel they are having fun and getting their moneys worth. One of my guilds long time officers gave his reason for leaving the game and it wasn't because of etos. he was sick of how you had messed up pvp, and the terrible grind for relic weapons and gear, so he just left and took his money to spend elsewhere on a game that was open and forthright about being a pay to play. I could go on and on about other things that need fixed in this game like how one can open over a 100 lockboxes and still get nothing worthwhile, but I feel this rant has been long enough. So one last time, Don't force us to pug a random epic to get our daily ads!
I know a few others have touched on this but as a person who mains a Paladin (15k) and has a 13k DC as an alt, I think the bonus is well intended but I don't believe it will help.
There are two types of people with support characters; those that prefer the role and will have one as their main, and those that have them as alts but prefer DPS.
Those that have a support main will have focused progression on their support character anyway. E.g. I took my Pally through SKT, SOMI and RD. In fact it's the only one of my 8 characters that has completed them.
The other type, those that have a support as an alt, usually create it to assist their friends or guild. They have less incentive to trudge them through overly long & tedious campaigns (mod 10) as they've been through it once on their main and have no desire to repeat it.
Offering a bit of extra AD to the first category is unnecessary and offering it to the second category is insufficient.
The thing is, pugging support players are already able to make much more AD than dps players. As a support, I hit the queue button for a T2 and it usually pops within 30 seconds. If I do that on my dps I expect to stand around for quite a while unless I get lucky. As such, a support player will get more runs per hour and so make a lot more.
A bit of additional AD on top would not change the base motivation of class/role choice. The only thing that would assist with this is getting them through campaigns faster.
However, I do actually believe Cryptic have done enough with regard to this already. Campaign completion tokens enable dps mains to pay their support classes through the likes of SKT and Loadouts have enabled them to have a solo dps build and a group support build.
If you really feel the need to give them an extra push, I would say the only thing that would help would be making the campaign tokens cheaper for support classes.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I know a few others have touched on this but as a person who mains a Paladin (15k) and has a 13k DC as an alt, I think the bonus is well intended but I don't believe it will help.
There are two types of people with support characters; those that prefer the role and will have one as their main, and those that have them as alts but prefer DPS.
Those that have a support main will have focused progression on their support character anyway. E.g. I took my Pally through SKT, SOMI and RD. In fact it's the only one of my 8 characters that has completed them.
The other type, those that have a support as an alt, usually create it to assist their friends or guild. They have less incentive to trudge them through overly long & tedious campaigns (mod 10) as they've been through it once on their main and have no desire to repeat it.
Offering a bit of extra AD to the first category is unnecessary and offering it to the second category is insufficient.
The thing is, pugging support players are already able to make much more AD than dps players. As a support, I hit the queue button for a T2 and it usually pops within 30 seconds. If I do that on my dps I expect to stand around for quite a while unless I get lucky. As such, a support player will get more runs per hour and so make a lot more.
A bit of additional AD on top would not change the base motivation of class/role choice. The only thing that would assist with this is getting them through campaigns faster.
However, I do actually believe Cryptic have done enough with regard to this already. Campaign completion tokens enable dps mains to pay their support classes through the likes of SKT and Loadouts have enabled them to have a solo dps build and a group support build.
If you really feel the need to give them an extra push, I would say the only thing that would help would be making the campaign tokens cheaper for support classes.
I only main one class, and from time to time play another (TR, CW). Used to help out on DC up to mod 5 changes. Since mod 12 and shortage of DCs thought about getting mine a bit up to date. Slapped some gear, run some ToSes to make it worth while and doing bloody jungle. If someone thinks for a moment that I'm going to go through SKT on DC, to be able to make some pittance AD. They are very very mistaken. For now I think I'll abort this DC project, even if I wanted to buy out the SKT, I can't make keys, and it will take me something like a year of that random queue AD to get the completion token worth back.
Not happening.
If they wanted more support classes in some random dungeons, this is not the way. My DC project is shelved.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Normal AD from runs, and account dungeon unlocks. Random queue is nice idea, but the groups should make sense, and it should be bonus AD over the regular, not to replace it completely.
I don't want boons, I just want to help out in a dungeon once in a while, and can spare the gear to qualify (per IL). So why not let me....
Normal AD from runs, and account dungeon unlocks. Random queue is nice idea, but the groups should make sense, and it should be bonus AD over the regular, not to replace it completely.
I don't want boons, I just want to help out in a dungeon once in a while, and can spare the gear to qualify (per IL). So why not let me....
You know, I actually forgot about that. They did it with Edemo, there's no reason why it couldn't be done with FBI & MSVA. Unlock it with your main and your alts have access.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
2
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,211Arc User
Normal AD from runs, and account dungeon unlocks. Random queue is nice idea, but the groups should make sense, and it should be bonus AD over the regular, not to replace it completely.
I don't want boons, I just want to help out in a dungeon once in a while, and can spare the gear to qualify (per IL). So why not let me....
You know, I actually forgot about that. They did it with Edemo, there's no reason why it couldn't be done with FBI & MSVA. Unlock it with your main and your alts have access.
You mean demo and not edemo. You have to unlock edemo from campaign (don't need to finish the campaign though).
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I think eDemo it was also a case of once unlocked on one character unlocked on all characters.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
yes.. once unlocked , its account wide.. it was the one shining moment the game has had for alt play.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,211Arc User
I think eDemo it was also a case of once unlocked on one character unlocked on all characters.
Not for me. My HR who is level 70. She did nothing about underdark campaign equip. She has enough ilevel requirement. I have at least 5 other characters who did edemo. I have just checked there is a lock with her edemo queue.
It says: "You cannot queue for Demogorgon (Master) because the Demogorgon (Master) fight from the Underdark campaign is not unlocked".
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
If you want 100 etos runs with your friends you still can just no bonus ad for the first 2 runs
Captain obvious is obvious.
The point is that what was once a reward for doing the content of your choice is now specifically witheld so that you do the content of the games choice. What was once a reliable income for doing some content which ALL has a very low chance of any jackpot reward, now becomes an either/or situation, do you want reliable income or to choose a low chance at a jackpot with nothing in between. Now time towards AD progress comes explicitly at the expense of doing the content that you want. This isn't "more variety" because we have all run these things hundreds of times if not more. This is merely attempting to make up for a lack of content by removing 1 piece of their choice.
The previous commenter is correct this is terrible for guilds, especially more social ones that gather together to do content, progress, make AD, and socialize all at the same time. Its bad enough for small guilds that advancement requires 1000s of repetitious events per player, now lets remove reliable income from the picture as well.
As an additive solution much of this random queue system would have been a welcome innovation. As a replacement for what we now have, its a huge step backward.
"If you want 100 etos runs with your friends you still can just no bonus ad for the first 2 runs"
Yes, I know.
That particular part of my post was as much a comment on having the freedom to choose as it was about the AD. They don't like how we choose to spend our time. This has been an emerging (ongoing?) trend with them. They dislike anyone that doesn't follow the narrow view they envisioned, its always "that's not what we intended" and then they take something away instead of getting creative. By their own statement, people were quitting because they didn't like being forced to run the same content over and over. How do they solve this? By taking took the control-freak way out instead of being clever Dungeon Masters.
With AD in particular, they have been working to strip it out of many things so that we had to "do the work" in order to get it. Ok, fair enough. So we choose from the tasks they laid out before us, and now that's not good enough. Now its "wait, not THOSE tasks". The incentive idea wasn't a bad one, but its been paired with a punishment i.e. you can run this but you wont get AD for it any more. Its false to claim that's any more of a choice than the current system.
For me NW fun is to play with friends. That means people I choose to play with. I joined an awesome guild which is now part of an awesome alliance. We run dungeons with new and end-game toons alike. I do not PUG. EVER. Period.
I am a DC (an AC and with the upcoming change for bonding stones that paragon path will not be favoured, so contemplating mothballing there - way to go cryptic - you just made both paragon paths viable only to annihilate that again). I have done FBI's in 2 hour struggles with new people, and we (guild/alliance) do that because we want our members to have access to all content. But to make that a 'daily option' in some 'random queue' for some 'lousy bonus AD'? Not gonna happen.
Well, from the overall feedback, it is clearly not popular. It is not quite in the same category as the original version of the bonding nerf - I don't see the same number of people threatening to leave, but I don't see anyone defending this or saying "This is a really good idea - I love it"
... I'll just forget the bonus AD, and just concentrate on salvage in the dungeons I choose to pug with randoms or friends. If I really need the AD, I'll go LFG for eToS Multi runs in zergs for sub 10 minute runs, turn seals in for salvage, give salvage to ALTS when shared bank is full, rinse and repeat. ,,,
What I truly regret, is that for us higher geared people we can do exactly this - zerg a few dungeons and salvage drops. We can do that much faster than pugging any random dungeon queue and get more AD out of that. And we will still pick the dungeons that we would like to run for that.
The only ones that get hurt are those that are just starting the game. Where this few k AD actually still matters. Not a good move, not a good move at all.
I have seen some really good suggestions in this thread and I at best can only copy those, I hope the devs will listen to the user base and stop alienate us further. Most important things that spoke to me from those:
loot drops vs effort involved. MSP anyone?
more variety (similar effort, similar loot) (I never had a chance to play those mod6 ones that got removed)
scale mob strength with party strength/composition
scrap bonus AD for non-epic dungeons on IL 11k toons. Although I know no-one that favours cloak tower over eToS nowadays.
What I dislike most is that your proposed model forces people to play things that they do not wish to play. Isn't a game supposed to be fun? Do you guys actually PLAY the game yourself? If you would start with a new toon, cannot rely on existing alts, do you think it is still fun?
I know that there are many players are thinking of things in terms of loss of efficiency right now. Many of you have gotten over the idea that you'll run Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity. It's not the case that everyone who runs Temple of the Spider passionately loves that dungeon though. Keep in mind that for every player who had accepted that fate, there's another who upon learning that running Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity was needed to max out their AD, said "no thank you" and stopped playing.
It's not the case that we are being cynical here, we honestly believe that running the same exact content over and over when there are lots more options is, well, not great. We can't blame those players who quit because of that. We play as well and we'd like to mix it up and play more content. We understand that for those of you who tolerated running the same content over and over for efficiency are feeling a bit of a sting by having some of that freedom removed.
You have completely misunderstood. ToS is not run just because it’s the most efficient, it’s also the most fun. The other dungeons are just that much more annoying and I would hate to be in them. With this “Random Que” system, the fun in running the dungeon I enjoy the most to get my daily rAD is being taken away because of your misconceptions. This system is anti-fun.
However, as I mentioned the numbers are not yet final. We are going to keep watching this feedback thread, and even once the feature goes live, we're going to observe how you all play. This isn't a clandestine plan to dramatically reduce the amount of AD everyone is earning, so we'll definitely be adjusting the numbers so that this is a feature everyone can appreciate.
This plan will dramatically reduce the amount of AD everyone is earning. You must have realized by now that this game requires alts. Alts are the source of income in this game. Alts are not created to run and or unlock all the content in this game. They are only geared enough to make running through ToS simple and to do influence/ power shard runs for the guild (we have a small guild and alts are the bread and butter for us). This plan with the “Random Que” being the only way to make the daily bonus rAD will lock out all the alt characters. It’s basically an alt killer, and the sad part is that mod 12a made the game so friendly for alts, and now you’re trying to take all that away. Alts have helped me gear up my main character, and when my main character is done I move on to gearing up an alt i like playing, and with that system I now have 4 main characters fully geared up and ready for any content. However, that system will die if this idea goes live and therefore will no longer need to play alts and no longer need to spend money gearing them up. This plan will kill alts and AD earnings along with them.
You guys are overthinking this “Random Que” idea, the “Random Que” is an incentive in itself. You won't believe the number of times I’ve gotten into a dungeon party with friends only to realize a dungeon party is formed and we don’t know which dungeon to run, that’s where the “Random Que” will be most appreciated. Or when I want to pug dungeons just to run anything and help people out at the same time. At those times, instead of sitting around in PE waiting for someone in LFG to post something I could just take my chances in “Random Que”. Those are the times I actually have the time to run anything and would love to use the “Random Que”, but when I’m trying to run dungeons for AD farming that’s when I solo run ToS, because I don’t have the time to sit around and wait for other people. The dungeons in this game don’t drop any rewards that make the dungeon worth running and wasting our time on, and so the biggest reward we can give ourselves is to see how fast and efficiently we can get through them. Overall, this "Random Que" idea is a good idea, but making it the only way to make bonus rAD from dungeons is going to ruin the game for many players.
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Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
So I guess my first question is why does this have to be a completely new and frankly stupid system?
Why not just add it as a new option to the old system? I for one don't have any issue running 2 dungeons and 2 skirmishes daily. But I can understand some other players not liking that system and preferring the new system. Which is why it would make way more sense to just add it as a new option to the existing system.
I don't really like all the dungeons, some to the point where I refuse to play them at all as the rewards aren't worth the effort. And I know a lot of other players that feel the same way. So now we're going to be forced to possibly run dungeons we hate to earn our daily AD? And you really think this wont end up making players quit the game? I really don't understand how you think this make any sense.
"Keep in mind that for every player who had accepted that fate, there's another who upon learning that running Temple of the Spider twice a day for eternity was needed to max out their AD, said "no thank you" and stopped playing. " <-- which is complete BS as you can run any dungeon to earn your daily AD including private solo que for Cloak Tower at lvl70. So that's 8 dungons and 12 epic dungeons and Im not sure if the epic trials counted or not but still, that's 20 dungeons you could choose from every day to earn your daily AD. So its not a problem with the system, its the players problem for not choosing to play something other then the same 2 dungeons everyday.
As for the skirmishes, well that is the Devs fault for only having 5 skirmishes to choose from. Illusionist's Gambit is just too long and becomes boring by the end, boring as is "geez, does this thing ever end". Prophecy of Madness has been broken since god knows when since. Its damn near impossible to get 3xgold reward so most players don't like running it... again, Devs fault but still not problem with the system.
And let me tell you something you obviously don't want to hear, THIS CHANGE WILL NOT STOP BOTTERS!!!
All this change will do is fill more low level ques with bots that will most likely screw over the honest players trying to earn their daily AD since the bots may not be able to complete a dungeon thus making it impossible for the player to complete it as well. And since they cant complete it they will be force to quit the dungeon and possibly get a penalty. So in the end you're are really just making it even harder for low level players to earn AD.
Oh yes, it will cut a little bit of their profits but since they're not actually sitting in front of the computer playing the game I doubt they will be very upset by it, unlike your real players.
With all these new changes Bonding stones, que system, how AD is earned, refining. Its starting to feel like mod 6 all over again.
Remember when the devs thought all the "new and exciting" changes in mod 6 were a good idea? Yea, ask the mass players that quit and all the dev team members that got fired how that worked out. For gods sake learn from your past mistakes.
On the list of things that need to be fixed in this game, the que system and and how we earn daily AD should have been at the bottom of the list on page 23.
But I also think that you're missing a lot or were making assumptions on how this would be taken by the community. There will be collateral damage from a change of this magnitude. As already expressed explicitly, this I can see being Module 6 magnitude.
Player don't like being forced to play in a particular way. Time is a precious commodity and when there is no predictability to game play player move to where there is!
Please consider:
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it". George Santayana
...and I'm pretty sure you don't want a Mod 6 exodus like before.
I think the thing that sticks in my throat the most is the fact that we'd be forced to use the Random queue should we wish to earn AD. I don't like being forced to play in a particular way. I want some predictability!
...so I really hope that this is true when you say all this is subject to change!
Why is it we spent all this time working on guilds, then alliance's and building relationships with these people and now you want us to do dungeons with strangers? I understand that new people or small guilds may have problems doing content but we should not be penalized for this. Have them join guilds or alliances that are willing to help them grow. Now you are taking away AD from individuals that do not have the time to do a random because they could end up in a dungeon with people that could end up taking forever do to a lack of experience. I have people in my guild that can play 1 to 2 hours at the most a day, that gives them just enough time to do their dailies, solo a 3 man dungeon for a small amount of AD and then possible run 1 dungeon with the guild. They have been loyal to the game and now once again they are the ones being penalized, OH, did I forget to say that due to the time they can play they also dump large amounts of real money in the game for the things they need.
Now, I think the random queue is fine but has several failing issues, like I do not want to waste my time in MSP for a random rank 5 enchant nor do I want to be penalized because I get put with a group that has no chance of finishing it or with people that are rude and hateful. Plus I don't think that it is far for you to force us into this type of situation just so we can obtain AD. People need to take into account that just because players have a certain Item Level does not mean they can play well enough to even consider some of the high end dungeons and this type of group will fail, plus we lose all that time.
Most of my guild and alliance have decided that if changes to this are not done before implementation we will close our wallets and probably go play elsewhere. I have been here since Beta and so has 1/2 my guild, we have watched and been through many changes and excepted them but removing the ability of obtaining a small amount of AD from a lot of individuals with time issues is wrong. If you need to remove the AD from the dungeons due to botting then add a unbottable way for individuals with a short amount of time to obtain AD.
I dare say some here are in the bonding thread arguing over the bonding changes. How many here, should this come to pass, are going to have any problems forming premade 5 man teams and farming for example, eToS for salvage?
Personally, this isn't going to affect my ability to do salvage runs and earn significant AD from those runs. It will stop me running with friends with different ALTS to maximise our free AD on top of salvage we get.
I can think of 1 group who need this AD much more than I do, new players, PUGs with no choice but to use this system to get AD. It's like the end of GG where PUGs took a couple of months to realise they were being mercilessly farmed by the PvP guilds and eventually decided that it just wasn;t worth it.
You want to give everyone an equal chance? You are going to hurt the players who need this change the most. Players who have just started, a bit shy to join a guild, players without the gear necessary to complete the top tier content you are going to force them to play.
Now, this change doesn't affect me directly, it will not stop me running what I want with who I want. This change is going to drive the people away from the game who we need the most in the game. If you do not refresh the top players who leave these game with new players struggling to get to the top, we are going to ROT from the roots up.
They've basically shot themselves in the foot with the combination of these 2 updates. You'll have people not powerful enough to get in LFG groups due to people being more elitist than ever, and newbies getting turned away from the game because of it. Everyone becomes weaker AND everyone has a harder time finding a competent, working group in general. Neither of those are good, but the fact that everyone gets weaker probably breaks everything because you can just as easily get put into MSP with a bunch of 12k players who have never done it, because of freakkin' RNG. Not okay.
It's like you're trying to drive a huge wedge between end game and middle ground players... We struggle enough at a certain point to get from mid level to end game.
You hit about 13k and there's a wall of grinding to surpass that which is fine, it's end game, it's not supposed to be easy...
But putting a.d behind a wall that the people who need the a.d most can't get into is honestly stupid and doesn't make any sense... Honestly what are you guys doing over there? Trying to kill your own game?
While some of the RP rework will make a few thigns cheaper.. they are actually extending costs in the end to a even higher level, while making it more difficult to achieve AD farming.
you didnt even have to play end game materials to make a end game build .. you just needed access to multiple runs of AD farming a day.. you could then buy a full set of Masterworks, and all the gear.. and be nearly the same as anyone else.. which is 100% fine by me.. I prefer not having to run hundreds of hours to restore gear.. I hate that in fact.
sure it takes thousands of said runs to do that.. but it TOOK thousands of said runs for me to do that too..
there wasnt any real shortcuts.. just farmed every day for a bunch of AD to make my toons viable.
if they wanted to help newer players.. lower costs on marks and such.. that is way more of a help then doing what they are doing with this garbage.
most others just took 2 dps and 3 whatever.. gf/op/dc or drop one and add a mof or maybe do a combo of a sw with it..
that to me was the vast majority of runs lately..
this was such a huge issue you had to destroy the game..?
or is it simply to force campaign sales?
that seems more likely to me.
what a joke this whole thing is.. a sad nightmare of a joke.
As to the whole not wanting to make players feel doomed to a treadmill of etos, that is a joke. No one I have every known left the game because of having to run etos! They left because they found other things more fun like watching paint dry. Seriously, when we tell a new lvl 70 the grind is only beginning we are not referring to etos, we are talking about mind numbing things like endless fishing! Whatever were you thinking to keep adding maps with fishing? Funny thing is I even liked the fishing in the winterfest that was fun and quick, the other fishing isn't. Whenever I try it I'm left thinking what the eck am I doing this for!
I don't have a lot of game time to waste, and if you think this will get players to spend more real money on the game think again.
most I've talk to don't mind spending money if they feel they are having fun and getting their moneys worth. One of my guilds long time officers gave his reason for leaving the game and it wasn't because of etos. he was sick of how you had messed up pvp, and the terrible grind for relic weapons and gear, so he just left and took his money to spend elsewhere on a game that was open and forthright about being a pay to play. I could go on and on about other things that need fixed in this game like how one can open over a 100 lockboxes and still get nothing worthwhile, but I feel this rant has been long enough. So one last time, Don't force us to pug a random epic to get our daily ads!
I know a few others have touched on this but as a person who mains a Paladin (15k) and has a 13k DC as an alt, I think the bonus is well intended but I don't believe it will help.
There are two types of people with support characters; those that prefer the role and will have one as their main, and those that have them as alts but prefer DPS.
Those that have a support main will have focused progression on their support character anyway. E.g. I took my Pally through SKT, SOMI and RD. In fact it's the only one of my 8 characters that has completed them.
The other type, those that have a support as an alt, usually create it to assist their friends or guild. They have less incentive to trudge them through overly long & tedious campaigns (mod 10) as they've been through it once on their main and have no desire to repeat it.
Offering a bit of extra AD to the first category is unnecessary and offering it to the second category is insufficient.
The thing is, pugging support players are already able to make much more AD than dps players. As a support, I hit the queue button for a T2 and it usually pops within 30 seconds. If I do that on my dps I expect to stand around for quite a while unless I get lucky. As such, a support player will get more runs per hour and so make a lot more.
A bit of additional AD on top would not change the base motivation of class/role choice. The only thing that would assist with this is getting them through campaigns faster.
However, I do actually believe Cryptic have done enough with regard to this already. Campaign completion tokens enable dps mains to pay their support classes through the likes of SKT and Loadouts have enabled them to have a solo dps build and a group support build.
If you really feel the need to give them an extra push, I would say the only thing that would help would be making the campaign tokens cheaper for support classes.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If someone thinks for a moment that I'm going to go through SKT on DC, to be able to make some pittance AD. They are very very mistaken.
For now I think I'll abort this DC project, even if I wanted to buy out the SKT, I can't make keys, and it will take me something like a year of that random queue AD to get the completion token worth back.
Not happening.
If they wanted more support classes in some random dungeons, this is not the way. My DC project is shelved.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Random queue is nice idea, but the groups should make sense, and it should be bonus AD over the regular, not to replace it completely.
I don't want boons, I just want to help out in a dungeon once in a while, and can spare the gear to qualify (per IL). So why not let me....
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
It says: "You cannot queue for Demogorgon (Master) because the Demogorgon (Master) fight from the Underdark campaign is not unlocked".
Captain obvious is obvious.
The point is that what was once a reward for doing the content of your choice is now specifically witheld so that you do the content of the games choice. What was once a reliable income for doing some content which ALL has a very low chance of any jackpot reward, now becomes an either/or situation, do you want reliable income or to choose a low chance at a jackpot with nothing in between. Now time towards AD progress comes explicitly at the expense of doing the content that you want. This isn't "more variety" because we have all run these things hundreds of times if not more. This is merely attempting to make up for a lack of content by removing 1 piece of their choice.
The previous commenter is correct this is terrible for guilds, especially more social ones that gather together to do content, progress, make AD, and socialize all at the same time. Its bad enough for small guilds that advancement requires 1000s of repetitious events per player, now lets remove reliable income from the picture as well.
As an additive solution much of this random queue system would have been a welcome innovation. As a replacement for what we now have, its a huge step backward.
"If you want 100 etos runs with your friends you still can just no bonus ad for the first 2 runs"
Yes, I know.
That particular part of my post was as much a comment on having the freedom to choose as it was about the AD. They don't like how we choose to spend our time. This has been an emerging (ongoing?) trend with them. They dislike anyone that doesn't follow the narrow view they envisioned, its always "that's not what we intended" and then they take something away instead of getting creative. By their own statement, people were quitting because they didn't like being forced to run the same content over and over. How do they solve this? By taking took the control-freak way out instead of being clever Dungeon Masters.
With AD in particular, they have been working to strip it out of many things so that we had to "do the work" in order to get it. Ok, fair enough. So we choose from the tasks they laid out before us, and now that's not good enough. Now its "wait, not THOSE tasks". The incentive idea wasn't a bad one, but its been paired with a punishment i.e. you can run this but you wont get AD for it any more. Its false to claim that's any more of a choice than the current system.
I am a DC (an AC and with the upcoming change for bonding stones that paragon path will not be favoured, so contemplating mothballing there - way to go cryptic - you just made both paragon paths viable only to annihilate that again). I have done FBI's in 2 hour struggles with new people, and we (guild/alliance) do that because we want our members to have access to all content. But to make that a 'daily option' in some 'random queue' for some 'lousy bonus AD'? Not gonna happen.
These 2 quotes cover much of my sentiment: And the reason why ...
What I truly regret, is that for us higher geared people we can do exactly this - zerg a few dungeons and salvage drops. We can do that much faster than pugging any random dungeon queue and get more AD out of that. And we will still pick the dungeons that we would like to run for that.
The only ones that get hurt are those that are just starting the game. Where this few k AD actually still matters. Not a good move, not a good move at all.
I have seen some really good suggestions in this thread and I at best can only copy those, I hope the devs will listen to the user base and stop alienate us further. Most important things that spoke to me from those:
- loot drops vs effort involved. MSP anyone?
- more variety (similar effort, similar loot) (I never had a chance to play those mod6 ones that got removed)
- scale mob strength with party strength/composition
- scrap bonus AD for non-epic dungeons on IL 11k toons. Although I know no-one that favours cloak tower over eToS nowadays.
What I dislike most is that your proposed model forces people to play things that they do not wish to play. Isn't a game supposed to be fun? Do you guys actually PLAY the game yourself? If you would start with a new toon, cannot rely on existing alts, do you think it is still fun?Alts have helped me gear up my main character, and when my main character is done I move on to gearing up an alt i like playing, and with that system I now have 4 main characters fully geared up and ready for any content. However, that system will die if this idea goes live and therefore will no longer need to play alts and no longer need to spend money gearing them up. This plan will kill alts and AD earnings along with them.
You guys are overthinking this “Random Que” idea, the “Random Que” is an incentive in itself. You won't believe the number of times I’ve gotten into a dungeon party with friends only to realize a dungeon party is formed and we don’t know which dungeon to run, that’s where the “Random Que” will be most appreciated. Or when I want to pug dungeons just to run anything and help people out at the same time. At those times, instead of sitting around in PE waiting for someone in LFG to post something I could just take my chances in “Random Que”. Those are the times I actually have the time to run anything and would love to use the “Random Que”, but when I’m trying to run dungeons for AD farming that’s when I solo run ToS, because I don’t have the time to sit around and wait for other people. The dungeons in this game don’t drop any rewards that make the dungeon worth running and wasting our time on, and so the biggest reward we can give ourselves is to see how fast and efficiently we can get through them. Overall, this "Random Que" idea is a good idea, but making it the only way to make bonus rAD from dungeons is going to ruin the game for many players.