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Official Feedback Thread: Bonding Runestone Changes

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  • liambradshaw#2102 liambradshaw Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    .
    Post edited by liambradshaw#2102 on
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    Wait, this is not going live yet. Right ?
    I mean, this is still just an idea... right ? It will take time to debate this... they would not just go with it in a week or something... right ?????

    Come on people don't scare me like that...


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  • xxxhansolxxxxxxhansolxxx Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    I'm not rejoicing about that change, thinking of all the stuff I will have to change on all my characters, but I understand the reasoning behind the devs decision.

    I do think that the numbers currently proposed are a bit low. As mentioned by many, stats with a 50% uptime are hard to balance and I think the the total stats % might need to be higher to make bondings worth using.

    On the other hand, I do like the idea of a trader, similar to the Lostmauth set Trader (or the same guy with new options) allowing you to trade bondings for a different runestone. That would make reworking our characters a wee bit less painful, and expensive ...
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    This feels like a mob mentality...

    People , stop selling your R12.
    Do not regret it.

    We do not have all of the informations , it is important to know when and if this is going live yet, before you make such a decision.

    Oerbek, if you are seeing this and are online. Go stop guildies from panic selling their HAMSTER. Please...
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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Devs stating that Bondings will still be the 'go to' runestone, this is such an ill considered statement.

    Bondings aren't just used to boost offensive capability, (as mentioned by others) they are used to balance stats that require 100% uptime, such as armor pen, defence & lifesteal.

    The 50% downtime will mean dangerous fluctuations and many players will need to switch to augments just for the reliability.

    The net result of this will most likely be all players (those that remain) running augments with Power or Crit runestones stacked with armor pen gear.

    So RI will balance, crit chance will drop by ~25% and power will remain the same (with 3x r14 empowered)
    or
    crit chance will drop by ~10% and power will drop by 6k (with 3x r14 Profane)

    This is excluding the powersharing from DC and OP which in dungeon groups could translate into a power loss of up to an extra 90k.

    Just going with 3xr14 Bondings (and gaining RI elsewhere) would result in an offensive stat loss of roughly the same, bearing in mind that offence bondings will have half the power of Empowered, multiplied by 1.45 then halved for 50% uptime.

    So 3xbonding = 2.28k power over 30 secs whereas 3xempowered = 6k power with 100% uptime. Adding the extra 22.5% stat boost from gear (45% divided by 2 to average out) means using bondings should equal a significant stat loss compared to augments.
    Post edited by armadeonx on
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    Ok lets be productive. I assume the changes are going to happen so here is my feedback:

    - Consider 100% uptime for bondigns. 50% uptime make things unpredictable -> hard to balance stats (crit and armpen are important to balance correctly) -> players angry.

    - Consider giving players more power not depending on the companion. I dont know the best way to do this, equipement, artifacts, enchants, more slots, I dont know but I feel that companions should add power but not more power than the character has. Bondigs allways gave me a bad feeling because of this. Sometimes the companion didnt get into the combat and I felt so unpowered those times.

    - I think this might be impossible to code but consider making all the companions augments that can attack and proc bondings and balance the %s of bondings and other sources because we dont want to return to those times were everyone had the same companion...
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    Here's my opinion:
    - on refining items/points changes - ok, I can live with that.
    - on bonding runes changes - I would love the bondings adjusted so that non-augment and augment companions are standing to par, since so far it has either been "everyone runs an augment" or "everybody runs a non-augment". What I would like to see is both types of companion being an equally viable option. Which to me means that either the bondings should be nerfed in their boost or in the uptime, and definitely not both, to bring them in line with the maximum possible boost from augments.
    Here's my five cents, have a candy. :)
  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    vimes0x said:

    All I'm seeing so far is complaints about losing power.



    What about us tanks? Nerfing bondings will severely impact our survivability! And I'd love to see how the dps will be able to kill ads quick enough with a large reduction in power, if the tank can't survive long enough for them to do it?



    I've been playing since just after launch on Xbox, I survived through mod 6, held my ground during coalgate, I've ground all content until I've passed out on numerous occasions. I put real money into this game, not as much as some, but still more than any other game I have EVER owned & ive been gaming for 30+ years!!!

    The refining changes I can understand and actually welcome, but the bondings.....

    This will affect tanks the worst and the least. Tanks tanks depend on solid stats, so Augments will be the way to go, DPS GF's at least might well be better off with the burst from companions but they are probably going to have a significant gear change.

    Personally I run a Hybrid DPS Tank, which means I'll likely go from bondings to augments but this will mean no more soloing IWP HE's.

    For Tank tanks and I can't speak for TONG, augments are fine for everything, you'll have no issues tanking anything up to CN with just rank 8's, I have an ALT GF just so geared, he doesn't have a stone of companion right now and has no problem with anything up to CN.

  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    araneax said:

    krzrsms said:

    I dont think they realize the level of rage this is inducing. From my conversations we're not just looking at a few disappointed casual players quitting. We're looking at entire guilds of dedicated players moving on, unfortunately my own included.

    Why would you quit if you like the game?
    You craft new builds, you will find new ways to play, new party compositions..
    Why would entire guilds quit? What's the big deal? It's not like anyone is excluded from the nerf.
    Quite the contrary, this might be an interesting time to figure out the game again.
    Why would you quit? Because your DPS is the same in comparison to everyone?
    Because you need to focus more on something, give it a new thought?

    The only excuse is if you bought your r12 bondings yesterday, I would explode with rage.
    Otherwise.. Who cares.

    What do you mean figure out the game and your character ?

    You already know what you need.
    How much you need it and what is needed or wanted to finish certain dungeons.

    Unless you do not do new dungeons and are completely skipping all of the new HAMSTER.

    The dungeons difficulty is not going down with the stats ...
    It is staying the same.


    For example DPS players might need to do new stat theory. As a CW, capping crit is essential to most builds, though with the idea that you can have 80k power even with capped crit and even more power with powershare from meta party.

    Forget about that now, it's unreliable. You can't rely on powershare, you can't get crit from Bondings because on bosses you might be screwed, you have to get arp somewhere else.

    Maybe a new build, maybe a new stat theory besides "cap everything and get as much power as possible"
    Maybe, don't know know, because I haven't tested anything. nobody did.
    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade

    [PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Yep zero consideration for the impact on the paladin as usual. Less buffing, less survivability - nobody will want a pally in the group now.

    To counter these changes, the devs need to have an immediate look at pally buffing - Aura of Courage should be changed to a straight 20-25% DPS buff for everyone in aura range, added to Aura Gifts that would get us close to Into The Fray. This would also enable paladins to stack more Defence instead of HP.

    Don't forget, Pallies gained most of their Defence from Bonding procs (as well as temp health via bonding boosted Power).

    However, experience tells me to not hold my breath.

    I'm going to have less issues going from Bondings to Augments on my Pally than my GF, both have similar levels of gear.

    Pally survivability is much higher than GF, the temp hit points plus a moderate to high defense make them pretty much unkillable but this makes it harder to fine tune them to do really nice dps.

    GF's on the other hand while having a major advantage with thier shield, have to actually aim it to receive any benefit from it on top of that, GF's, unlike Pallies, have no hard taunts at all as far as I am aware.
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User

    araneax said:

    krzrsms said:

    I dont think they realize the level of rage this is inducing. From my conversations we're not just looking at a few disappointed casual players quitting. We're looking at entire guilds of dedicated players moving on, unfortunately my own included.

    Why would you quit if you like the game?
    You craft new builds, you will find new ways to play, new party compositions..
    Why would entire guilds quit? What's the big deal? It's not like anyone is excluded from the nerf.
    Quite the contrary, this might be an interesting time to figure out the game again.
    Why would you quit? Because your DPS is the same in comparison to everyone?
    Because you need to focus more on something, give it a new thought?

    The only excuse is if you bought your r12 bondings yesterday, I would explode with rage.
    Otherwise.. Who cares.

    What do you mean figure out the game and your character ?

    You already know what you need.
    How much you need it and what is needed or wanted to finish certain dungeons.

    Unless you do not do new dungeons and are completely skipping all of the new HAMSTER.

    The dungeons difficulty is not going down with the stats ...
    It is staying the same.


    For example DPS players might need to do new stat theory. As a CW, capping crit is essential to most builds, though with the idea that you can have 80k power even with capped crit and even more power with powershare from meta party.

    Forget about that now, it's unreliable. You can't rely on powershare, you can't get crit from Bondings because on bosses you might be screwed, you have to get arp somewhere else.

    Maybe a new build, maybe a new stat theory besides "cap everything and get as much power as possible"
    Maybe, don't know know, because I haven't tested anything. nobody did.
    And while i do see your point.
    I am seriously wondering what will happen to DCs and Tanks ..

    The DPS is not really our main concern.

    And i was positive they would analyze all of the effects of this change, before posting this HAMSTER.
    But now i am not so sure.

    I want it black on white, what do they think bondings actually do for Pallies and DC's.
    How that will affect our gameplay, buffs and debuffs and the difficulty of the dungeons.
    What happens when you can not count on your stats any more, and the healing crit, debuff and buffs get unreliable.

    Has anyone thought about that ?
    And if they did , what was the consensus about this.
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  • jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    People stop doing like everything is unplayable with those changes. it's pathetic.
    You haven't even calculated anything yet, haven't made suggestion for new ways to balance stats, haven't crafted new builds, haven't tried anything.
    naaah you know right away everything is unplayable. Without any testing.

    If a month in all end game turns out to be unplayable, well I'll be the first to throw a stone.
    But a day into announcement saying "aaa my toon is unplayable"
    That's pathetic, that's just pathetic.

    Some have said that yes, most haven't. A recurrent theme here I AM seeing is that Cryptic are replacing one BiS meta, Bonding Stones, with all the variation in companions we have to choose from and changing it to the new meta, Bulette with 3xEldritch.

    The problem I see it is, they are removing one problem, replacing it with another and kicking the can down the road.

    I wouldn't recommend selling Bonding stones at all right now, if the new meta is Augments once more and Bulettes become as expensive as Legendary mounts, we are going to be having this conversation again 6 months after they release this change, which from the looks of it will be mod 12.5.
  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    araneax said:

    araneax said:

    krzrsms said:

    I dont think they realize the level of rage this is inducing. From my conversations we're not just looking at a few disappointed casual players quitting. We're looking at entire guilds of dedicated players moving on, unfortunately my own included.

    Why would you quit if you like the game?
    You craft new builds, you will find new ways to play, new party compositions..
    Why would entire guilds quit? What's the big deal? It's not like anyone is excluded from the nerf.
    Quite the contrary, this might be an interesting time to figure out the game again.
    Why would you quit? Because your DPS is the same in comparison to everyone?
    Because you need to focus more on something, give it a new thought?

    The only excuse is if you bought your r12 bondings yesterday, I would explode with rage.
    Otherwise.. Who cares.

    What do you mean figure out the game and your character ?

    You already know what you need.
    How much you need it and what is needed or wanted to finish certain dungeons.

    Unless you do not do new dungeons and are completely skipping all of the new HAMSTER.

    The dungeons difficulty is not going down with the stats ...
    It is staying the same.


    For example DPS players might need to do new stat theory. As a CW, capping crit is essential to most builds, though with the idea that you can have 80k power even with capped crit and even more power with powershare from meta party.

    Forget about that now, it's unreliable. You can't rely on powershare, you can't get crit from Bondings because on bosses you might be screwed, you have to get arp somewhere else.

    Maybe a new build, maybe a new stat theory besides "cap everything and get as much power as possible"
    Maybe, don't know know, because I haven't tested anything. nobody did.
    And while i do see your point.
    I am seriously wondering what will happen to DCs and Tanks ..

    The DPS is not really our main concern.

    And i was positive they would analyze all of the effects of this change, before posting this HAMSTER.
    But now i am not so sure.

    I want it black on white, what do they think bondings actually do for Pallies and DC's.
    How that will affect our gameplay, buffs and debuffs and the difficulty of the dungeons.
    What happens when you can not count on your stats any more, and the healing crit, debuff and buffs get unreliable.

    Has anyone thought about that ?
    And if they did , what was the consensus about this.
    Let's face it. Maybe it will lead to meta in which 4 out of 5 spots are not reserved for GF, OP and 2 DCs, or at least 3 out of 5 for 2DCs and OP. Bondings play a massive role.
    I will certainly not cry about that I'll tell you that. It's not like the game is in a great state now and they ruining it. People are only accustomed to what is, and fail to see how terrible the meta balance is.

    Oh and I have my worries, I base my build on bondings just as anyone else.
    I seriously doubt this is worse than what we have know.
    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade

    [PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    I can not believe they are going this far.

    You know... with a bubble change, key change , nerf to DC's AA, some of us got angry at the way Cryptic treats us.
    No matter what we say, the change goes.
    People who invest in this game every month for years.




    I am serious .. this has to be a joke or something.
    How disconnected from us to they have to be to think this is a good idea ?
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  • xxxhansolxxxxxxhansolxxx Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    :: Take out a riot shield ::

    A simple idea to make pets with bondings or eldritch on par with augments would be to remove the % from eldritch stones on augments.

    That way you could either have :

    - 100% stats and uptime (augment)
    - 195% stats, 50% uptime and pet skills (pet + bondings)
    - 76.5% stats, 100% uptime and pet skills (pet+eldritchs)

    Eldritch would probably still be at a disadvantage since they don't add any stats to your pet and might need some love, but that seems to me like a good way to get all options viable.

    :: Watch out for incoming stones and pitchforks ::
  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 200 Arc User

    @noworries#8859



    :: Take out a riot shield ::



    A simple idea to make pets with bondings or eldritch on par with augments would be to remove the % from eldritch stones on augments.



    That way you could either have :



    - 100% stats and uptime (augment)

    - 195% stats, 50% uptime and pet skills (pet + bondings)

    - 76.5% stats, 100% uptime and pet skills (pet+eldritchs)



    Eldritch would probably still be at a disadvantage since they don't add any stats to your pet and might need some love, but that seems to me like a good way to get all options viable.



    :: Watch out for incoming stones and pitchforks ::

    I like this. 3 "relatively" balanced options. stats, double stats in burst, less stats + companion skills (debuff maybe).
    the balance to content is purely theoretical, though I like having options.

    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade

    [PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • agilestoagilesto Member Posts: 516 Arc User
    While i don't have a problem with reducing a bit the % of stats that bondings provide, it's absolute non-sense to give them an uptime of 50%. Players can't work with inconsistent stats, that's a nightmare to optimize, this is plain stupid. The overall change is way too much, destroying bondings when you say "we still want them to be 1st choice").

    Bondings were a huge investment for everyone, months of grind and / or lots of $$$ involved. Remember that bondings are currently 1st choice, better stuff because it only drop from lockboxes / comes with zen market pets. You know that this is a "premium" item not available aside from zen market (either lockbox keys or companions).

    I'm all the way up for increasing the use of augments companions, increase the diversity in terms of builds, companions, etc. But destroying bondings that much when you know it's the first investment any person have to make (and i'm ok with that, "premium" item being better, can still be grinded), no. Just no. Especially if we don't get anything in return, and that seems to be the case.

    Remember when Lostmauth set "was affecting majority of players so that we decided to implement a vendor to trade your set for another one of same quality" ? Well we should AT LEAST be able to trade our bondings if ever it's going to be out of the meta.
    But please, please reconsider these changes. They're too important for the entiere playbase, and for the sake of the game (running ToNG with augments or inconsistent stats, YAY!) to rush it with some really bad changes like that.
  • vimes0xvimes0x Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    > @jumpingmorks said:
    For Tank tanks and I can't speak for TONG, augments are fine for everything, you'll have no issues tanking anything up to CN with just rank 8's, I have an ALT GF just so geared, he doesn't have a stone of companion right now and has no problem with anything up to CN.

    The problem isn't with T1/T2 dungeons. Everything up to CN won't be the problem. Endgame content and dungeons, however, will be. I'm not a BiS gf but I'm not far from it. If they would stop introducing new gear for a few months and forcing me to change my gear every couplr of mods, I'd be BiS in no time!
    The problem will be my survivability the T3+ dungeons and related content.
  • aspa12aspa12 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 33 Arc User
    My biggest concern is the bondings. I get you need to get them toned down even though you said in the past that they worked as intended. And I will accept a reduction in bonding's percentage, however I feel the cooldown is too much. I should be able to keep the bondings if I want to and don't go into augments. But now with the cooldown I'll have to switch or change my enchantments all over and do unnecessary changes and upgrades out of the blue. Reason is Armor Penetration. Lots of people take their resistance ignored through their companions. I can't have 85% of armor pen in one second but that dropping to 15% on another just waiting for the uptime. That means that I will have to upgrade darks or change many of my character's gear so that I can get all that 85% RI needed from my basic gear.
    If you can't convince them confuse them.
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    I had saved that post, with the devs saying it is WAI.
    But now i just can not find it...
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  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User


    Maybe a new build, maybe a new stat theory besides "cap everything and get as much power as possible"
    Maybe, don't know know, because I haven't tested anything. nobody did.

    Maybe you know why we are all have our concerns after you got tombs on ps4....

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