so, um tell me you want to encourage us to party up, play nicely together, great. only now your saying we sorta punish the support classes WHO are generally about supporting party play. How does that compute? why even have dps counter in the equation for loot? in ANY content.
Allow me to take a stab at this:
When a monster dies, it determines who gets the loot it generates. For most mobs / situations, this goes to the person who did the most damage.
However, if you are in a party, any loot that drops is subject to party loot rules. Which are often need/greed rolls.
So let's take a look at an example situation: 5 players are fighting a monster that drops a rare piece of armor.
If those 5 players are not in a party, then whoever did the most damage gets the drop.
If those 5 players are instead in a party together, then whoever did the most damage "gets the drop", but that's pretty meaningless because the drop gets adjudicated by the party loot rules. So (as is pretty common) if you have need/greed enabled, then even though it dropped to the party member with most damage, it is rolled on by the whole party equally. And if you had any other loot rules enabled (leader chooses, round robin, free-for-all etc.) then that mechanic is instead used to give out the loot. So bottom line, in a party, it doesn't matter who gets the drop since the drop is adjudicated by the party loot system. But if the highest dps is not inside your party, then your party won't get the drop and instead the individual or party that did the most damage will.
I don't know whether it totals party damage, but I would imagine it doesn't. So it just gives the loot to the party of the highest individual dps contributor.
Before this Fang change (won't be able to try it out until tonight), I had written off hunts altogether. Instead of HE zerging, it was just T-Rex zerging, and at that, you better be bringing the pain(giver). I was about to suggest getting rid of the Fang for 1-star hunts altogether, but maybe this will work.
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Rewarding the most powerful characters more has been around since IWD HEs. About the only way to get Black Ice equipment drops was to solo BHEs (if you could). They've tweaked it over the years, but the BIS DPS get most of the good stuff while the people who really need it languish. HEs still work that way. It would be more fair to support classes if the damage increases they give to others counted towards their own "loot score", but it would still leave the "haves" getting the good stuff while the "have-nots" continue to not have. This system is extremely discouraging to more mid-geared players.
I don't know if parties are working as intended, but they seem to follow the same pattern from my observation, at least concerning chest loot and partied HE loot.
and that does not seam to punish lower dps classes? really, does not matter if in party or not, using highest DPS as a marker for any loot is wrong. unfair, and a really really good way to HAMSTER off a portion of your player base. if, everyone(party or not), is beating on said creature, then EVERYONE contributed to its downfall period.
and that does not seam to punish lower dps classes? really, does not matter if in party or not, using highest DPS as a marker for any loot is wrong. unfair, and a really really good way to HAMSTER off a portion of your player base. if, everyone(party or not), is beating on said creature, then EVERYONE contributed to its downfall period.
Whereas I understand where you're coming from, I kind of think you are oversimplifying things, and nuance matters in this case.
In a party where there are loot rules, it doesn't matter how the loot drop is determined, since the party loot rules determine who gets it.
It is kind of blah in HEs and open world content where a "every-dps-for-themselves" looting mechanic is currently in place.
That said, in general you do need a way of assigning loot drops to a single player. DPS contribution is one method, and it has it's downsides / flaws that I absolutely agree are problematic.
One alternative would be to drop loot for everyone, but that would necessitate seriously reducing drop rates to avoid dramatically changing the supply of loot in the market. It may also encourage AFKs or very low contribution drive-bys.
An alternate solution might be to give everyone who contributes an equal chance at getting the loot (like an invisible loot roll). That reduces the need for dramatically reducing drop rates, but still has the issue with AFKs or low contribution drive-bys.
You could look towards setting up some sort of threshold for damage done to qualify as a contributor, but then we start getting more complex (more room for bugs to pop up) and less transparent (do we use a flat damage amount? % of monster health? Scales with level?)
I guess I'm saying I get where the devs are coming from, this is not a simple issue to solve. And the solution for parties right now is not so bad, since party lead gets to decide which loot rules to use. But open world rewards skew heavily to DPS contributors, and that's unfair to support classes.
so, um tell me you want to encourage us to party up, play nicely together, great. only now your saying we sorta punish the support classes WHO are generally about supporting party play. How does that compute? why even have dps counter in the equation for loot? in ANY content.
This is only in reference to random enemies in the overworld. This does not apply to queued content, heroic encounters, solo instances, etc. There are very rarely cases where valuable items drop from enemies in the overworld over which there is significant competition. Hunts are an exception, and thus why the described change is being implemented.
Loot for overworld monsters has to determine its owner in some manner. Some games have a concept of "claiming" where the first hit marks a target, frequently accompanied by a change in the color of the nameplate, at which point all loot from that enemy will go to the player who claimed it (or their party.) In other games—and in Neverwinter—whomever (or whomever's group) that has dealt the most damage to the target before it dies receives the loot. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages.
This information was mostly provided for background. Disadvantages in the current system are rarely encountered. It is exceptionally rare that competition occur over an overworld enemy that is not in a heroic encounter, and when there is, the drops are generally of little consequence.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
This is something we've been investigating how to approach and I did not want to respond until I had a concrete answer. We are currently testing the following adjustment: all players who deal damage, regardless of the amount, will have a chance to receive a trophy when the monster is defeated. In cases where players are in a group, all players will receive a chance. (Whether you are in a group or not will make no difference, essentially, if it it dies and you hit it, you may see a trophy drop to the ground.)
For those who had been speculating about the drop chance of the Tyrannosaurus rex fang, it was and still is 100%; however, as others have pointed out, if you were engaged at the same time as other players, you may not have received credit. It's also the case that if you already had one in your inventory, you would not see one drop. Although similar to the heroic encounter credit issue, this is a slightly different issue. As Neverwinter does not have the concept of "claiming" an enemy, loot is determined by the most damage dealt (or, simply given to everyone) on a case by case basis, with "damage dealt" being the most common.
In summary, once this change is live, all players who contribute even a single point of damage to a Tyrannosaurus rex kill will receive a fang, regardless of whether they are in a party or not. For all other rare spawns, all players who contribute will receive a chance at earning a trophy. This chance has not been adjusted from the original value, so the overall number of trophies entering player possession will increase. No adjustments have been made to 1 star hunt marks and above.
This change needs some additional time in testing as we were already close to finalizing this week's build when these changes were made, so I apologize that it will not be going live sooner. This week's build will feature the increased chance of the Tyrannosaurus rex appearing as well as an adjustment to trophy items such that they will not drop from the heroic encounter or fishing if you already have one.
Finally, we have adjusted credit for the quest Merchant Prince's Bounty, on all rare monsters, such that if you contribute to the kill of a rare monster, you should always receive credit for "slaying a hunt mark." In addition, the text on this quest has been updated to clarify that both rare monsters and lured hunt marks will count for credit.
Then something else is wrong because I (DC) have solo'd several t-rex and not gotten a fang. Are those little raptor HAMSTER stealing my fang? I have also solo'd KoS (on preview) and didn't get a fang. This weekend I completed 6 hours of fishing and 29 KoS before I got a t-rex fang. Not counting the time to find a KoS, we are talking about 9 hours of farming to get one fang, alternatively I guess the trade market for fangs is an option. Whole lot easier to farm 100K AD to trade for a fang in 9 hours than to earn one.
This is a huge disparity with my DPS friends. I have partied and fought KoS with people who got a t-rex fang drop that I 100% of the time out rank in paingiver in dungeons. Is it possible that RNGesus can have disfavor for a particular class or person? At first, when people said the highest dps wins I was inclined to believe them until I solo'd some.
I remember the old system of dragons from mod 4. All the tanks and dcs started standing in red to take more damage, we called in bording (none HE) mobs to increase the encounter time (longer the fight, the more damage received and healed). We turned off all available buffing/debuffing mechanics. We never rezd players (dead players couldn't dps). Basically we had to become total trolls, is that what has to happen to get a fang this mod?
Are you sure it was a Tyrannosaurus Rex and not a regular Tyrannosaur that you soloed? There are two versions of the mob, the regular tyrannosaur and the rare version the big tyrannosaurus rex. Only the rex drops the fang but you need to kill the regular ones to get the rex to spawn in it's place.
yes, i know the different between a tyrannosaur and a trex. Its a long battle, i personally cheat and climb a tree so i can kill from range without having to worry about attacks from the trex
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
So why are this fixes not on live server immediately? But the dev's fixed the tomb dungeon which is not even free to play in the next weeks, because you have to grind the opening on this dungeon.
Even the 1* hunt which is bugged from the start of this mod is not fixed.
Is this a new time gate for the content we have to play?
Reports are in that both tier 3 hunting and the dungeon have been unlocked on live
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
so, um tell me you want to encourage us to party up, play nicely together, great. only now your saying we sorta punish the support classes WHO are generally about supporting party play. How does that compute? why even have dps counter in the equation for loot? in ANY content.
This is only in reference to random enemies in the overworld. This does not apply to queued content, heroic encounters, solo instances, etc. There are very rarely cases where valuable items drop from enemies in the overworld over which there is significant competition. Hunts are an exception, and thus why the described change is being implemented.
Loot for overworld monsters has to determine its owner in some manner. Some games have a concept of "claiming" where the first hit marks a target, frequently accompanied by a change in the color of the nameplate, at which point all loot from that enemy will go to the player who claimed it (or their party.) In other games—and in Neverwinter—whomever (or whomever's group) that has dealt the most damage to the target before it dies receives the loot. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages.
This information was mostly provided for background. Disadvantages in the current system are rarely encountered. It is exceptionally rare that competition occur over an overworld enemy that is not in a heroic encounter, and when there is, the drops are generally of little consequence.
I know there was a rework at some point where the mechanic was damage dealt + damage received + amount healed = qualifying loot tier. Now the logic probably wasn't a flat +, it was probably something like a portion of damage healed and received + dealt. Then the loot tier was an RNG for what you received in this instance. So for example lets say KoS the top 25% of performers (damage dealt + damage received + amount healed) had the greatest odds of getting the good loot (a fang). This attempted to reward tanks and healers on a similar playing field as dps (although it still ignored buff/debuff mechanics). Also favored earlier arrivals for making the claim because they had a chance to get in some hits and take some hits before the dps came along to "help". The system we currently have does not encourage team play, it encourages me to try and solo or to start KoS, get some hits in, then invite others to join in once I feel i have a comfortable lead on the paingiver. This system also encourages the dps to not balance their characters. Would you invest equally in defense and offense when the goal is to enter in a huge mob and get in as much damage as you can in a short amount of time? Overall it does not encourage positive behaviors in the game. And tells me to stop rezing people, dead people deal no damage and therefore loose competitive advantage on paingiver.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
FYI thread: Round Robin looting in a party absolutely will muck up your hunt rewards by giving the item to a random party member. I tagged along with a group last night as they didn't have a fifth guildie around that wanted to go, I didn't think to ask the party leader what his loot settings were, and the +4 Ring of Goblin Carnage went to me instead of triggering a roll. After a few moments of wtf, the party lead confessed it was his fault. Oops.
My DC got a very nice ring out of the deal.
This also debunks the idea that DPS contribution affects loot in a party in any way, as it was my DC vs. three GWFs and a BiS TR.
Neverwinter—whomever (or whomever's group) that has dealt the most damage to the target before it dies receives the loot.
Cool thanks for chiming in with additional context. So it does sound like the system currently tallies up contribution at the party level if you are in a party?
Whereas this doesn't come into play all the time, it's good context for the few areas where overworld drops do matter (ex. siege)
Allow me to lightheartedly point out that you've also touched on a larger issue with much of the end-game content XD
I'm teasing a little, since I know I'm taking your comment out of context. Despite the challenges being discussed, I really appreciate that with hunts there is some experimentation in bringing back meaningful loot rolls
The hunts are a completely separate mechanic which gives gear, achievements, and bonus (uncapped) totems. I am personally running it to unlock the dungeon next Monday. If you ignore hunts completely, it's a fairly straightforward campaign that is probably easier to complete than most for well geared characters. I feels smooth to complete, similar to how Dread Ring does.
It is a very engaging side mechanic though, and I would hate to see anyone miss out on it due to poor loot mechanics, which is why I brought up the fact that supports are having extreme trouble getting T-Rex fangs.
EDIT - Sorry I meant "doesn't count towards weekly haul" there is still a weekly cap of 25 totems from hunts
So why are this fixes not on live server immediately? But the dev's fixed the tomb dungeon which is not even free to play in the next weeks, because you have to grind the opening on this dungeon.
Even the 1* hunt which is bugged from the start of this mod is not fixed.
Is this a new time gate for the content we have to play?
Reports are in that both tier 3 hunting and the dungeon have been unlocked on live
Probably not related but I did notice today that Chult Map Treasure Chests are now dropping Totems. Provided you open them after your character has reached the weekly cap, they allow you to exceed the cap. I'd been storing up maps on my CW since last week, so after farming them earlier I had 10 chests which netted me 9 extra totems on top of the weekly cap
I have already done more than 200 hunts with my group. And we did not get anything! +1 +2 rings, sometimes +3 and even less often +4, a lot of Purple items that no one needs anymore.
Every day 2-4 hours of HE farm. A lot of time for grinding mobs to get a components for hunting baits. And like a result = NOTHING!
How long people need to do this for +5 ring?) Dungeon farm with random +5 rings was more interesting because of Astral Diamonds from dungeons. And hunting looks like a waste of time.
update atm we finished more than 500 hunts and still nothing. Killed t3 boss and = +1 ring
update atm we finished more than 500 hunts and still nothing. Killed t3 boss and = +1 ring
Maybe this is a exploit blocker? Maybe the system checks there is no legit way to lure t3 bosses now? So maybe at monday the good loot comes? Our DC was more than happy when she got her +5 ring at a t1 hunt.
update atm we finished more than 500 hunts and still nothing. Killed t3 boss and = +1 ring
Maybe this is a exploit blocker? Maybe the system checks there is no legit way to lure t3 bosses now? So maybe at monday the good loot comes? Our DC was more than happy when she got her +5 ring at a t1 hunt.
I think t3 has same drop rates that have t1 and t2. So, if you want to have +5 ring -> just kill 100500 t3 dino
And some members of our guild (3) have already received +5 rings. But, for guild with 140 active members. And ~30-50 of them online almost all day. With 2-4 hours of HE farm. And 50+ hunts in every party every day... just 3 +5 rings... lol....
Just wanted to chime in here with my opinion on why this system for Hunts is so flawed. Time.
The shear amount of time involved compared to the loot rewarded at the end is absolutely preposterous. While I'm in game I'm on Teamspeak, as are numerous other Crusaders. Whether we are farming for batiri masks, doing dungeons, farming Rex's or trading in Port.. we're always on TS chattin' it up with each other. All day today its been a mostly constant stream of, "I've been farming these darn batiri's for 3 hours now and I've only had 2 trinkets drop." or "Thats 18 Tyrannosaur's in a row now without a Rex spawn." and a healthy spattering of, "The server has only been up for a hour, how is Split-ti bugged in every instance!?"
After 10 or more of us have farmed the zone (some also purchase Fangs in trade chat) doing different things for 6+ hours we've gathered enough fangs/not-fangs (#notfangs) to purchase a number of Hunt Lures. We evenly distribute these lures between 2 teams of 5 and set out to do our Hunts. Approximately 20 minutes later we've completed all Hunts. Today we did 8 Hunts per team, 16 in total. From those 16 we received 5 Tier 2 Hunts items, 7 +1 rings, a couple of +3 rings and 3 pieces of gear. We then proceeded to combine/buy/Hunt what tier 2 Hunts we could. From those we recieved one Tier3 Hunts item, two +1 rings and a +4 ring. We also did one additional tier 1 Hunt at this time where one person received a +5 ring of bleh.
After an entire day worth of playing, running in circles killing the same enemies ad nauseum for hours on end, spending a couple dozen Gmops on Rexfangs only 2 out of our 10 people walked away with any sort of significant reward. Compare that to any pre-Mod12 day of play where, in the amount of time spent farming, could have run dozens of dungeons and all walked away with at least 10x more loot.
Moving forward, anything done to reduce the efficiency of Hunts with or without drastically increasing the quality and/or quantity of loot received will be a terrible decision from the player's viewpoint.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
@asterdahl - I do appreciate your responses here. While I still have some doubts about the loot formula, based mainly on my subjective observations over the years, I'm willing to concede that loot drops are a very complex issue. I don't think any answer would please everyone but I do appreciate at least one answer.
Despite the other issues with fang and other hunting drops I will say that I like that the lure components and lures can't be listed on the AH and thus must be traded for. I creates a certain feel for the zone that I like. I think the real issue is just that the drop rates on everything from hunting should be increased to counter act the built in inefficiencies of the system.
Some of those inefficiencies do add to the feel of the hunt and that's good. Inefficiencies combined with poor drop rates make for a very unrewarding system that players will get frustrated with and thus stop playing it and that's bad.
If you are going to build inefficiencies into a system to accomplish a certain game feel that's fine, but account for that when you decide on a drop rate by increasing the drop rate.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
sure.. and what if you play at the lowest time of population day? All it does it prevent certain people from advancing easily.
All said, I still wish they were on the AH and this is just a historic and long line of examples of anti botting measures, impacting reguraly players as well.
Frankly if they dont want poeple to bot, then just make it a fairly easy and straight foward system to advance.. poeple buy botted material to get out of that.. otherwise they wouldnt bother..
make things either boe or bta .. drop everything else.. if you see a flaw, its because they made it one.. just like lanolin and the rest of the somi experience.. of course people bought botted material, because the campaign was a oyster cluck.. no one wanted to do it.. when you can make more from effing fishing , then you can from effing dungeons.. something is wrong with your mmo.
personally Ive avoided buying thigns from the AH all together.. i prefer to grind stuff myself, which is why I skipped the relic grind, I could tell how boring it was and that you would have to succumb to buying stuff (this after 100 maps and only getting like 12 lanolins from it.. just not anywhwere near close enough)
Personally just make things BTA or something.. then make it reasonable and no running around for hours and hours for little rewards and RNG factors, isnt reasonable to me, never has been, never will be.
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
What if?? What if the criteria for getting the drop/trophy was TIME SPENT not DAMAGE DONE. So if you happen to ride through a HE for 0.2% of the time you get the pittance you deserve + 0.2% chance of getting the drop/lure. A DPS getting there with 25% damage to go doing 15% of it and spending 5% of the time of the HE gets a 5% chance at the Lure/Drop. A group that starts the fight and even if they dies a few times and is on their way back to the fight gets the maximum of 99% chance of getting the lure drop. Also every downed character YOU pick up so they can get back in the fight gives you +10% extra chance of success in addition to your time percentage (even if it's over 100%).
I have already done more than 200 hunts with my group. And we did not get anything! +1 +2 rings, sometimes +3 and even less often +4, a lot of Purple items that no one needs anymore.
Every day 2-4 hours of HE farm. A lot of time for grinding mobs to get a components for hunting baits. And like a result = NOTHING!
How long people need to do this for +5 ring?) Dungeon farm with random +5 rings was more interesting because of Astral Diamonds from dungeons. And hunting looks like a waste of time.
update atm we finished more than 500 hunts and still nothing. Killed t3 boss and = +1 ring
Thank you for the feedback. I have been looking into the rewards that were setup for hunts, and we will be making some adjustments and improvements to the system. We agree that the payout, particularly for the higher ranks are not worth the investment. We will be making adjustments to all tiers, but the changes will be most significant for the King of Spines. Chiefly, the King of Spines will drop all varieties of hunt rings, but only +4 and +5 rarities, so your likelihood of obtaining a +5 ring will be dramatically higher from the King of Spines.
These changes are currently in test and will be rolling out during next week's update, at which time I will discuss the improvements in a more in-depth manner. Although it's frustrating, as I know many of you will gain access to the King of Spines next week, I wanted to give you all the opportunity to save any lures obtained between now and the update in anticipation of the changes.
Changes will still be coming to 1 and 2 star hunts, but they will be less significant. Considering the relatively higher frequency with which they can be run, you can probably safely continue running them in the meantime. Particularly with 1 star, there will be no adjustments to the rarity of +5 rings, so if this is your goal, you can safely continue running 1 star hunts.
One final note I would make is that, keep in mind the hunts offer a manner of obtaining very high item level equipment without needing to queue for anything, you can bring as many or as few players as you want to a hunt. As such, we don't have any current plans of making hunts a significant source of astral diamond or refinement farming. The overall payout will improve as a result of adjustments, but I just want to set expectations. If there's nothing you want from the hunt to use on your character, then don't feel obligated to hunt. Additionally, we look forward to groups challenging hunts with as few members as possible!
Considering you can trade a T-Rex fang for 4 greater marks of potency or 1 superior mark at the moment I'd say hunting can still be a source of AD. Additionally I was offered 3 superior marks for my Arachne 2 star lure component that dropped.
Greater marks sell on the AH right now for around 15k AD each and superior marks for 60k so you have an idea of the value placed on hunt lures/components by the player base at the moment. I'm sure these will become less valuable as people get the gear they are hunting for though.
Considering you can trade a T-Rex fang for 4 greater marks of potency or 1 superior mark at the moment I'd say hunting can still be a source of AD.
Forgive my lack of clarity, I mean to say that the system itself won't be paying out large amounts of astral diamonds or refinement. We're happy if trading with other players is proving profitable.
It won't help if you make changes to King of Spines if you don't fix Split-ti.
I'd like to apologize for this issue, as well as my lack of addressing it in this thread. I have not personally been working on this issue, however, a fix for this issue is currently in testing and currently scheduled for next week. (The same time as the aforementioned adjustments to loot.)
I can unfortunately confirm that there is no workaround for the issue wherein the monsters fails to split, without going too much into the details, it is more or less a random chance to fail. I only mention this, as depending on an individual players luck, someone might circulate misinformation about how to prevent the encounter from breaking based on their own anecdotal evidence.
I can unfortunately confirm that there is no workaround for the issue wherein the monsters fails to split, without going too much into the details, it is more or less a random chance to fail. I only mention this, as depending on an individual players luck, someone might circulate misinformation about how to prevent the encounter from breaking based on their own anecdotal evidence.
Though I am pleased by your open honesty about this I can't say I'm optimistic about the issue. Sure-sure ogre femur bones are so incredibly common and we now have so many that we are virtually dumping them into our Stronghold moat by the wagon load but if this issue rears its ugly head too often we'll be wasting RexFangs. Wasting RexFangs is absolutely not cool.
Even when I'm farming Rex's wit mah peeps we can often-times go 1 hour or more without seeing a single Rex, just Tyrannosaur after Tyrannosaur... waving their weak little arms around helplessly, begging us to stop.
On that note, kudos to the animation and art teams, the Rex's (and their weaker iterations) really do look great and the animations give them enough character that I actually kinda feel bad for them when they get knocked down.
... and why u make me kill compy's? can't you see how adorable they are!? lil' compycomp's is mah frenz!
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
I have already done more than 200 hunts with my group. And we did not get anything! +1 +2 rings, sometimes +3 and even less often +4, a lot of Purple items that no one needs anymore.
Every day 2-4 hours of HE farm. A lot of time for grinding mobs to get a components for hunting baits. And like a result = NOTHING!
Fully agree. It's clear that the hunt system is designed to encourage some kind of "social interaction". While I'm happy with the general approach, I cannot say the same about how it's implemented. I understand that some changes are going to come in the next days/weeks and they are welcome, but I want to spend few words about the value of the time. I've two decent toons - the main 15.8k DC and a 13.6k SW: the DC goes straight to unlock the dungeon (because it's a support toon, too slow to farm) , while the SW is dedicated to hunt. The best items are BoA, so that's ok for me, but it's not ok for those ones who have only one main support class. Resources are hard to farm, even more when too many players want them. I've found a way to collect the T-Rex fang in a reasonable time with my SW, even soloing, but then I've spent all day to farm few Batiri masks: it was frustating. Then I had to team up with some guildies to get some trash loots. Overall the payback is disappoint. My current mood is that it doesn't worth the effort because: - Farming resources is something I do alone and it takes a lot of time. I do it alone because each member of my guild is dedicated to one type of resource in order to combine them. - Social interaction is a matter of few seconds: build the team -> place the lure -> kill the monster -> insult the trash loot -> end.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Comments
When a monster dies, it determines who gets the loot it generates. For most mobs / situations, this goes to the person who did the most damage.
However, if you are in a party, any loot that drops is subject to party loot rules. Which are often need/greed rolls.
So let's take a look at an example situation: 5 players are fighting a monster that drops a rare piece of armor.
If those 5 players are not in a party, then whoever did the most damage gets the drop.
If those 5 players are instead in a party together, then whoever did the most damage "gets the drop", but that's pretty meaningless because the drop gets adjudicated by the party loot rules. So (as is pretty common) if you have need/greed enabled, then even though it dropped to the party member with most damage, it is rolled on by the whole party equally. And if you had any other loot rules enabled (leader chooses, round robin, free-for-all etc.) then that mechanic is instead used to give out the loot. So bottom line, in a party, it doesn't matter who gets the drop since the drop is adjudicated by the party loot system. But if the highest dps is not inside your party, then your party won't get the drop and instead the individual or party that did the most damage will.
I don't know whether it totals party damage, but I would imagine it doesn't. So it just gives the loot to the party of the highest individual dps contributor.
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Rewarding the most powerful characters more has been around since IWD HEs. About the only way to get Black Ice equipment drops was to solo BHEs (if you could). They've tweaked it over the years, but the BIS DPS get most of the good stuff while the people who really need it languish. HEs still work that way. It would be more fair to support classes if the damage increases they give to others counted towards their own "loot score", but it would still leave the "haves" getting the good stuff while the "have-nots" continue to not have. This system is extremely discouraging to more mid-geared players.
I don't know if parties are working as intended, but they seem to follow the same pattern from my observation, at least concerning chest loot and partied HE loot.
unfair, and a really really good way to HAMSTER off a portion of your player base. if, everyone(party or not), is beating on said creature, then EVERYONE contributed to its downfall period.
In a party where there are loot rules, it doesn't matter how the loot drop is determined, since the party loot rules determine who gets it.
It is kind of blah in HEs and open world content where a "every-dps-for-themselves" looting mechanic is currently in place.
That said, in general you do need a way of assigning loot drops to a single player. DPS contribution is one method, and it has it's downsides / flaws that I absolutely agree are problematic.
One alternative would be to drop loot for everyone, but that would necessitate seriously reducing drop rates to avoid dramatically changing the supply of loot in the market. It may also encourage AFKs or very low contribution drive-bys.
An alternate solution might be to give everyone who contributes an equal chance at getting the loot (like an invisible loot roll). That reduces the need for dramatically reducing drop rates, but still has the issue with AFKs or low contribution drive-bys.
You could look towards setting up some sort of threshold for damage done to qualify as a contributor, but then we start getting more complex (more room for bugs to pop up) and less transparent (do we use a flat damage amount? % of monster health? Scales with level?)
I guess I'm saying I get where the devs are coming from, this is not a simple issue to solve. And the solution for parties right now is not so bad, since party lead gets to decide which loot rules to use. But open world rewards skew heavily to DPS contributors, and that's unfair to support classes.
Loot for overworld monsters has to determine its owner in some manner. Some games have a concept of "claiming" where the first hit marks a target, frequently accompanied by a change in the color of the nameplate, at which point all loot from that enemy will go to the player who claimed it (or their party.) In other games—and in Neverwinter—whomever (or whomever's group) that has dealt the most damage to the target before it dies receives the loot. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages.
This information was mostly provided for background. Disadvantages in the current system are rarely encountered. It is exceptionally rare that competition occur over an overworld enemy that is not in a heroic encounter, and when there is, the drops are generally of little consequence.
Reports are in that both tier 3 hunting and the dungeon have been unlocked on live
My DC got a very nice ring out of the deal.
This also debunks the idea that DPS contribution affects loot in a party in any way, as it was my DC vs. three GWFs and a BiS TR.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Whereas this doesn't come into play all the time, it's good context for the few areas where overworld drops do matter (ex. siege) Allow me to lightheartedly point out that you've also touched on a larger issue with much of the end-game content XD
I'm teasing a little, since I know I'm taking your comment out of context. Despite the challenges being discussed, I really appreciate that with hunts there is some experimentation in bringing back meaningful loot rolls
Also - maybe it's been said, but I didn't find it - between a solo DPS and a support group, who gets the loot? Am I right to suspect it's the DPS?
Every day 2-4 hours of HE farm. A lot of time for grinding mobs to get a components for hunting baits.
And like a result = NOTHING!
How long people need to do this for +5 ring?)
Dungeon farm with random +5 rings was more interesting because of Astral Diamonds from dungeons.
And hunting looks like a waste of time.
update atm we finished more than 500 hunts and still nothing.
Killed t3 boss and = +1 ring
Our DC was more than happy when she got her +5 ring at a t1 hunt.
And some members of our guild (3) have already received +5 rings.
But, for guild with 140 active members. And ~30-50 of them online almost all day. With 2-4 hours of HE farm. And 50+ hunts in every party every day... just 3 +5 rings... lol....
I think i can lure him at monday. No problem
The shear amount of time involved compared to the loot rewarded at the end is absolutely preposterous. While I'm in game I'm on Teamspeak, as are numerous other Crusaders. Whether we are farming for batiri masks, doing dungeons, farming Rex's or trading in Port.. we're always on TS chattin' it up with each other. All day today its been a mostly constant stream of, "I've been farming these darn batiri's for 3 hours now and I've only had 2 trinkets drop." or "Thats 18 Tyrannosaur's in a row now without a Rex spawn." and a healthy spattering of, "The server has only been up for a hour, how is Split-ti bugged in every instance!?"
After 10 or more of us have farmed the zone (some also purchase Fangs in trade chat) doing different things for 6+ hours we've gathered enough fangs/not-fangs (#notfangs) to purchase a number of Hunt Lures. We evenly distribute these lures between 2 teams of 5 and set out to do our Hunts. Approximately 20 minutes later we've completed all Hunts. Today we did 8 Hunts per team, 16 in total. From those 16 we received 5 Tier 2 Hunts items, 7 +1 rings, a couple of +3 rings and 3 pieces of gear. We then proceeded to combine/buy/Hunt what tier 2 Hunts we could. From those we recieved one Tier3 Hunts item, two +1 rings and a +4 ring. We also did one additional tier 1 Hunt at this time where one person received a +5 ring of bleh.
After an entire day worth of playing, running in circles killing the same enemies ad nauseum for hours on end, spending a couple
dozen Gmops on Rexfangs only 2 out of our 10 people walked away with any sort of significant reward. Compare that to any pre-Mod12 day of play where, in the amount of time spent farming, could have run dozens of dungeons and all walked away with at least 10x more loot.
Moving forward, anything done to reduce the efficiency of Hunts with or without drastically increasing the quality and/or quantity of loot received will be a terrible decision from the player's viewpoint.
Thanks
Some of those inefficiencies do add to the feel of the hunt and that's good. Inefficiencies combined with poor drop rates make for a very unrewarding system that players will get frustrated with and thus stop playing it and that's bad.
If you are going to build inefficiencies into a system to accomplish a certain game feel that's fine, but account for that when you decide on a drop rate by increasing the drop rate.
All said, I still wish they were on the AH and this is just a historic and long line of examples of anti botting measures, impacting reguraly players as well.
Frankly if they dont want poeple to bot, then just make it a fairly easy and straight foward system to advance.. poeple buy botted material to get out of that.. otherwise they wouldnt bother..
make things either boe or bta .. drop everything else.. if you see a flaw, its because they made it one.. just like lanolin and the rest of the somi experience.. of course people bought botted material, because the campaign was a oyster cluck.. no one wanted to do it.. when you can make more from effing fishing , then you can from effing dungeons.. something is wrong with your mmo.
personally Ive avoided buying thigns from the AH all together.. i prefer to grind stuff myself, which is why I skipped the relic grind, I could tell how boring it was and that you would have to succumb to buying stuff (this after 100 maps and only getting like 12 lanolins from it.. just not anywhwere near close enough)
Personally just make things BTA or something.. then make it reasonable and no running around for hours and hours for little rewards and RNG factors, isnt reasonable to me, never has been, never will be.
These changes are currently in test and will be rolling out during next week's update, at which time I will discuss the improvements in a more in-depth manner. Although it's frustrating, as I know many of you will gain access to the King of Spines next week, I wanted to give you all the opportunity to save any lures obtained between now and the update in anticipation of the changes.
Changes will still be coming to 1 and 2 star hunts, but they will be less significant. Considering the relatively higher frequency with which they can be run, you can probably safely continue running them in the meantime. Particularly with 1 star, there will be no adjustments to the rarity of +5 rings, so if this is your goal, you can safely continue running 1 star hunts.
One final note I would make is that, keep in mind the hunts offer a manner of obtaining very high item level equipment without needing to queue for anything, you can bring as many or as few players as you want to a hunt. As such, we don't have any current plans of making hunts a significant source of astral diamond or refinement farming. The overall payout will improve as a result of adjustments, but I just want to set expectations. If there's nothing you want from the hunt to use on your character, then don't feel obligated to hunt. Additionally, we look forward to groups challenging hunts with as few members as possible!
Greater marks sell on the AH right now for around 15k AD each and superior marks for 60k so you have an idea of the value placed on hunt lures/components by the player base at the moment. I'm sure these will become less valuable as people get the gear they are hunting for though.
I can unfortunately confirm that there is no workaround for the issue wherein the monsters fails to split, without going too much into the details, it is more or less a random chance to fail. I only mention this, as depending on an individual players luck, someone might circulate misinformation about how to prevent the encounter from breaking based on their own anecdotal evidence.
Watch pls PM. I send you a message with video.
Even when I'm farming Rex's wit mah peeps we can often-times go 1 hour or more without seeing a single Rex, just Tyrannosaur after Tyrannosaur... waving their weak little arms around helplessly, begging us to stop.
On that note, kudos to the animation and art teams, the Rex's (and their weaker iterations) really do look great and the animations give them enough character that I actually kinda feel bad for them when they get knocked down.
... and why u make me kill compy's? can't you see how adorable they are!? lil' compycomp's is mah frenz!
It's clear that the hunt system is designed to encourage some kind of "social interaction". While I'm happy with the general approach, I cannot say the same about how it's implemented.
I understand that some changes are going to come in the next days/weeks and they are welcome, but I want to spend few words about the value of the time.
I've two decent toons - the main 15.8k DC and a 13.6k SW: the DC goes straight to unlock the dungeon (because it's a support toon, too slow to farm) , while the SW is dedicated to hunt. The best items are BoA, so that's ok for me, but it's not ok for those ones who have only one main support class.
Resources are hard to farm, even more when too many players want them.
I've found a way to collect the T-Rex fang in a reasonable time with my SW, even soloing, but then I've spent all day to farm few Batiri masks: it was frustating. Then I had to team up with some guildies to get some trash loots.
Overall the payback is disappoint. My current mood is that it doesn't worth the effort because:
- Farming resources is something I do alone and it takes a lot of time. I do it alone because each member of my guild is dedicated to one type of resource in order to combine them.
- Social interaction is a matter of few seconds: build the team -> place the lure -> kill the monster -> insult the trash loot -> end.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF