My main concern about this build is how far it will fall behind as players continue to get better gear. While I understand that it's not intended to be a true DPS, I wonder it'll get to the point where the extra damage output can't even come close to justifying having it over a DC or even a 2nd DC.
My main concern about this build is how far it will fall behind as players continue to get better gear. While I understand that it's not intended to be a true DPS, I wonder it'll get to the point where the extra damage output can't even come close to justifying having it over a DC or even a 2nd DC.
Outside of a premade group for FBI, or soloing FBI, this build (more or less as presented) will do everything you need it to do in any dungeon setting. It is also a very capable solo build. If you are doing an FBI speed run or are going to solo FBI, then I recommend the Slappdaniel/ItsViral ProtOP build.
You have to remember that this build doesn't just do a load of damage; you also have Aura Gifts, Aura of Wisdom, Aura of Courage, and depending on your WE, a whole ton of debuffing opportunities. This is on top of insane amounts of healing. Between your DPS and healing, you're going to get a ton of aggro, often times making you the de facto tank (even if you have a dedicated tank in your group). In all but the most BiS groups, it isn't uncommon for me to top Paingiver, Field Medic, Immovable Object, and Executioner.
That said, if you are in a premade group where everything literally dies within 2 seconds or less (and end bosses die in less than 15 seconds), the Burnadin loses its effectiveness because nothing has time to actually "burn" since it is obliterated....
My main concern about this build is how far it will fall behind as players continue to get better gear. While I understand that it's not intended to be a true DPS, I wonder it'll get to the point where the extra damage output can't even come close to justifying having it over a DC or even a 2nd DC.
Outside of a premade group for FBI, or soloing FBI, this build (more or less as presented) will do everything you need it to do in any dungeon setting. It is also a very capable solo build. If you are doing an FBI speed run or are going to solo FBI, then I recommend the Slappdaniel/ItsViral ProtOP build.
You have to remember that this build doesn't just do a load of damage; you also have Aura Gifts, Aura of Wisdom, Aura of Courage, and depending on your WE, a whole ton of debuffing opportunities. This is on top of insane amounts of healing. Between your DPS and healing, you're going to get a ton of aggro, often times making you the de facto tank (even if you have a dedicated tank in your group). In all but the most BiS groups, it isn't uncommon for me to top Paingiver, Field Medic, Immovable Object, and Executioner.
That said, if you are in a premade group where everything literally dies within 2 seconds or less (and end bosses die in less than 15 seconds), the Burnadin loses its effectiveness because nothing has time to actually "burn" since it is obliterated....
I play Healadin (though my main is a DC) so I am fully aware of the utility it currently has. But like I said, I am concerned that as we get better gear, its damage will fall so far behind real DPSes (due to its flat damage) that taking a healadin over a second DC or even another DPS will make very little sense.
My main concern about this build is how far it will fall behind as players continue to get better gear. While I understand that it's not intended to be a true DPS, I wonder it'll get to the point where the extra damage output can't even come close to justifying having it over a DC or even a 2nd DC.
Outside of a premade group for FBI, or soloing FBI, this build (more or less as presented) will do everything you need it to do in any dungeon setting. It is also a very capable solo build. If you are doing an FBI speed run or are going to solo FBI, then I recommend the Slappdaniel/ItsViral ProtOP build.
You have to remember that this build doesn't just do a load of damage; you also have Aura Gifts, Aura of Wisdom, Aura of Courage, and depending on your WE, a whole ton of debuffing opportunities. This is on top of insane amounts of healing. Between your DPS and healing, you're going to get a ton of aggro, often times making you the de facto tank (even if you have a dedicated tank in your group). In all but the most BiS groups, it isn't uncommon for me to top Paingiver, Field Medic, Immovable Object, and Executioner.
That said, if you are in a premade group where everything literally dies within 2 seconds or less (and end bosses die in less than 15 seconds), the Burnadin loses its effectiveness because nothing has time to actually "burn" since it is obliterated....
I play Healadin (though my main is a DC) so I am fully aware of the utility it currently has. But like I said, I am concerned that as we get better gear, its damage will fall so far behind real DPSes (due to its flat damage) that taking a healadin over a second DC or even another DPS will make very little sense.
You're of course worrying about something that hasn't happened yet and the gear progression would have to be substantial. On top of that, AoC damage would improve with increased HP on new gear and OP auragifts would increase with improved power on gear. Another thing that could be said is if they increase enemy survivability (see mod 12 notes) then the burnadin build actually becomes more powerful/relevant.
I don't actually see the point of worrying about 6 months down the line in this game as so many things change that you have to adapt as they do.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
My main concern about this build is how far it will fall behind as players continue to get better gear. While I understand that it's not intended to be a true DPS, I wonder it'll get to the point where the extra damage output can't even come close to justifying having it over a DC or even a 2nd DC.
Outside of a premade group for FBI, or soloing FBI, this build (more or less as presented) will do everything you need it to do in any dungeon setting. It is also a very capable solo build. If you are doing an FBI speed run or are going to solo FBI, then I recommend the Slappdaniel/ItsViral ProtOP build.
You have to remember that this build doesn't just do a load of damage; you also have Aura Gifts, Aura of Wisdom, Aura of Courage, and depending on your WE, a whole ton of debuffing opportunities. This is on top of insane amounts of healing. Between your DPS and healing, you're going to get a ton of aggro, often times making you the de facto tank (even if you have a dedicated tank in your group). In all but the most BiS groups, it isn't uncommon for me to top Paingiver, Field Medic, Immovable Object, and Executioner.
That said, if you are in a premade group where everything literally dies within 2 seconds or less (and end bosses die in less than 15 seconds), the Burnadin loses its effectiveness because nothing has time to actually "burn" since it is obliterated....
I play Healadin (though my main is a DC) so I am fully aware of the utility it currently has. But like I said, I am concerned that as we get better gear, its damage will fall so far behind real DPSes (due to its flat damage) that taking a healadin over a second DC or even another DPS will make very little sense.
You're of course worrying about something that hasn't happened yet and the gear progression would have to be substantial. On top of that, AoC damage would improve with increased HP on new gear and OP auragifts would increase with improved power on gear. Another thing that could be said is if they increase enemy survivability (see mod 12 notes) then the burnadin build actually becomes more powerful/relevant.
I don't actually see the point of worrying about 6 months down the line in this game as so many things change that you have to adapt as they do.
For me the point of worrying about something 6 months down the line is that high-end characters are expensive to build. I simply don't want to invest in a build if it's likely to be doomed within a few mods. And while I agree that various changes can easily alter the viability of this build, I think that players who are far more knowledgeable about this class are going to be better at making predictions about it than I am.
For me the point of worrying about something 6 months down the line is that high-end characters are expensive to build. I simply don't want to invest in a build if it's likely to be doomed within a few mods. And while I agree that various changes can easily alter the viability of this build, I think that players who are far more knowledgeable about this class are going to be better at making predictions about it than I am.
Hi it sounds like you are looking for an endgame BiS DPS paladin build. This isn't it. I very specifically included the target Item Levels that I believe this will be useful for. Does it scale well into endgame right now? Yes. Will it in the future? Probably not. But that doesn't matter, because my target IL isn't changing so this build will continue to be relevant for current content even if new gear and power creep is introduced.
We do scale well with Power/HP. Aura of Courage is our 2nd highest source of damage, right behind Healing Warmth. It does amazing damage, and scales fantastically off of HP/Power. Please keep in mind, the Burnadin was not mean't to get you on top of paingiver. It was meant to give you a suitable source of damage. Right now those two things can be the same, especially when you have healing warmth and are slightly higher IL than other players in the same dungeon. This build does scale, just not with comparison with full DPS characters, which I'm totally OK with. We aren't meant to try to top them, we are meant to be relevant on the paingiver chart, and we will be able to do that in the future.
I understand your concerns, and I have tried to address them best I can, as they are valid concerns. But for the purposes of my target audience / IL, it likely won't matter. This build was not meant to be BiS, I specifically say that. You can evolve it to fit your needs as you began to understand how you want to play. BG/HW/AoC are a major part of the core build presented. You can find other sources of damage or variants of the build to help out with better scalability. That's what you are supposed to do with this build, it's meant as a expandable guide. You can stick with it, knowing what you are signing up for. Or you can experiment (which I recommend), and find out what works best for just you and your playstyle.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
Alright, I'm here to address some hidden changes around the Paladins in a recent patch (NW.80.20170515E.13).
First of all HW got nerfed. This reduced out damage a fair bit, but is definitely still viable. From my intial tests I had determined that BG and HW have a 5% proc rate. My more recent tests show BG is still performing at 5%, but HW is down to 3%. Now this could be a REALLY bad bout of RNG hitting me, but it does look like roughly a 2% nerf. This reduces DPS slightly, and can allow AoC to top HW depending on your damage modifier, but really the % chance wasn't the big deal in this patch. The biggest area this changed things was 5 man dungeons.
Secondly, paladins are now being queued as either tank or healer, seemingly randomly. It might have to do with loadout switching, it might not. I believe this might be a mistake and not an intended change, although I'm waiting to see what the developers say about this.
Thirdly and most significantly BoV now only effects 5 players. This is a big dent to the Burnadins (and other builds that use Burnadin mechanics), and has dropped our DPS fairly significantly in most content. Anything with around 7 or more players, you will see a significant DPS loss from a pre-nerf timeframe. I am an advocate for this specific change. There were a number of times where the exponential growth of BoV was overwhelmingly large, especially in tiamat, and this caused severe lag for countless players. The limit of 5 people per Vow makes the growth factor stop at 25 (5*5), instead of the previous 2500 (50*50) in tiamat. 10 man dungeons were effected by the lag as well, although it obviously wasn't as bad as tiamat runs. Now let's address a few points before I get too far...
The current state of Burnadin is near balance. We can still do dps! It is no longer like 85% of what a 14K IL GWF is outputting. All of our weaknesses still remain in place.
I am not OK with hidden nerfs. I simply can't believe that a number of changes were an oversight in the changelog. I don't know why these were not mentioned, but the fact they are absent troubles me.
We play as a support class, we do comparable damage to a DC with a DPS spec. They can heal and dps, we can do the same. We play differently but for the same end result.
I believe we are in a current state of balance, you need some skill to play a Burnadin to good efficiency, getting the rotation right, not dying, and making good combat choices are important. You are now rewarded for performing well, rather than it being handed to you.
A max of 5 targets on BoV now means 2 burnadins MIGHT viable in 10 man content, be VERY careful with BoV, it only targets closest allies, with no preference to whether they are in your party or not. I would recommend 1 Burnadin and 1 DC anyway for 10 man dungeons.
With this being said, I want to make sure I reiterate this point. We are fairly balanced in comparison to what we are supposed to be doing. The DPS we HAD was too high to be honest, I know you like your dps. I like mine too. But it was simply to high in most situations. The damage we are doing now is modest, and while a skilled player can increase it a fair bit, we are no longer topping Paingiver regularly. I approve of this, we are meant to heal and do damage, and off-tank if need be. This allows us to do just that. On comparison with DC's which is the easiest comparison to make as a support class, we are on par with them in terms of both damage and buffs. We lack most debuffing capabilities that they have. We pickup some tankiness however because we lack some of these potent debuffs. We are nowhere near as tanky as our protection counterparts or guardian fighters, but we shouldn't be.
I know people are super hung up on DPS and want to know how much of a loss this is. I have 1/3 HW and 1/1 BG. I run with 60k power with bondings, and I saw roughly a 20% loss in DPS. So 1 million is now down to 800k after the nerfs.
I will likely be making changes to my guide to include some of these points. Please be forgiving with me, it will take some time to redo the math sections.
Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
It was fun while it lasted, but in all reality, the nerf was needed. The lag that was created before the nerf was making the game unplayable for a lot of folks. Now that the nerf is in place, I think I can share this pic as it ain't going to be happening anymore....
On comparison with DC's which is the easiest comparison to make as a support class, we are on par with them in terms of both damage and debuffs. We lack most buffing capabilities that they have.
How are we on par with DC when it comes to debuffs? Debuffs available to DC: - Bear Your Sins - 10% (passive, feat) - Condemning Gaze - 15% (passive, feat) - Divine Glow - 17.5% (always in rotation) Debuffs available to OP: -Bane - 3x10% and viable only for single target
I believe I swapped debuffs and buffing in that sentence. I typed it rather quickly and didn't proofread it before posting, my mistake. Let me explain what I meant. So, first of all DC's and Paladins are different classes, we both debuff and buff in different ways. In the context of the word debuff, which is for what factors in to the damage equation, you are correct DC's have the upper hand. Although things like AoT technically debuff, I understand your argument. Once again my apologies for misspeaking originally. We do not debuff well, we have only a few things as class features that debuff, excluding CC effects like stuns we have... (AoT, Smite, Bane, and Vow). That's not a lot compared to a DC by any means.
Now to the point of buffing which is what I originally meant to say, I believe we are on par, which is what I meant to say. We have Aura Gifts, they have Weapons of Light. We have ways of reducing cooldown, they have ways of giving out AP. We have ways of boosting party damage through AoC, they can do it through Anointed Army or through Terrifying Insight. We can run Banishment, SoF, or hold down Shift, and they can run something like Astral Shield. We do tons of healing, and so do they. That was what I was trying to refer too. Is everything a perfect co-relation, or perfectly equal? No, but I believe an argument can be made as to what we provide as a buffing support class, and what they can provide as a buffing support class.
Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
If we're comparing Dev OP to DC it can simply be said that the loss of buffing and debuffing capabilities of DC (Bear Your Sins, Condemning Gaze, Divine Glow, empFF/BtS), Dev OP can partially compensate with much higher damage output. Plus easier time keeping everyone healed (especially through DoT AoE) and providing cooldown reduction and Aura of Courage that can be big DPS increase for some classes.
At lower IL Dev OP is really good, but later it falls behind DC (as they can keep up buffs and debuffs much better and eventually run double daily - AA and HG) and with DPS once DPS classes gear up, since we're limited by fixed damage of BG and HW. It's sad truth. In end game content at high IL except some places where healing through constant damage can be really useful, Prot OP is much more useful, providing better power share, 25% DR with Circle of Power and overall much better damage potential thanks to not relying on fixed damage boons.
It really sucks. I'd love to see some changes to Dev OP to increase either damage or buffing capabilities. The fact we're forced to always run Bond and Vow in group content doesn't help. The small stat increase from Devotion Mechanic is mostly irrelevant, if any heal attempt would grant allies increased damage and decreased incoming damage (to at least beat DO DC's Terrifying Insight), then we're talking.
Healing Warmth/Bond of Virtue is dead, Long live...oh, Nevermind! Since this shadow nerf appears to have been done to create a much for stable system and gaming experience for all, then I can live with that. However, @oggycz hit the nail on the head with the ideal situation of having better servers in the first place would have helped. I also agree that (as a subclass) we are well-balanced, maybe a little too balanced since endgame content, gear and even the other classes keep sliding to the right with each new module. My concern is that a possible 20% reduction in our damage output coupled no announced plans to relook and redesign some of our powers will put us further behind and less desired as more time passes. I'm tempted to just switch and stay with my prot loadout and just switch to devo in an emergency rather than just use it as my main. Just depressing.
Did anyone re-test the 3% versus 5% proc rate on BG? I know veywiil did - but he also mentioned it could have been a laggy moment. I'm not doubting that it happened - just need to confirm in my head. I'm on PS4 and we don't get to test these things
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Did anyone re-test the 3% versus 5% proc rate on BG? I know veywiil did - but he also mentioned it could have been a laggy moment. I'm not doubting that it happened - just need to confirm in my head. I'm on PS4 and we don't get to test these things
Has anyone else taken to slotting Aura of Divinity with BoV? Does the heal up to three wounded allies of the Aura create the additional procs for BG/HW in addition to what you'll get with Bond? I've noticed my damage, while still reduced, aren't as bad as opposed to when I use another aura.Are any other Burnadins seeing similar results?
Hi it sounds like you are looking for an endgame BiS DPS paladin build. This isn't it. I very specifically included the target Item Levels that I believe this will be useful for. Does it scale well into endgame right now? Yes. Will it in the future? Probably not. But that doesn't matter, because my target IL isn't changing so this build will continue to be relevant for current content even if new gear and power creep is introduced.
We do scale well with Power/HP. Aura of Courage is our 2nd highest source of damage, right behind Healing Warmth. It does amazing damage, and scales fantastically off of HP/Power. Please keep in mind, the Burnadin was not mean't to get you on top of paingiver. It was meant to give you a suitable source of damage. Right now those two things can be the same, especially when you have healing warmth and are slightly higher IL than other players in the same dungeon. This build does scale, just not with comparison with full DPS characters, which I'm totally OK with. We aren't meant to try to top them, we are meant to be relevant on the paingiver chart, and we will be able to do that in the future.
I understand your concerns, and I have tried to address them best I can, as they are valid concerns. But for the purposes of my target audience / IL, it likely won't matter. This build was not meant to be BiS, I specifically say that. You can evolve it to fit your needs as you began to understand how you want to play. BG/HW/AoC are a major part of the core build presented. You can find other sources of damage or variants of the build to help out with better scalability. That's what you are supposed to do with this build, it's meant as a expandable guide. You can stick with it, knowing what you are signing up for. Or you can experiment (which I recommend), and find out what works best for just you and your playstyle.
I definitely wasn't looking to be top paingiver, I was wanting some assurance as to if the build/class will be relevant enough in terms of damage to justify (in combination with its buffs/debuffs) its place in the group over a 2nd DC, a buff/debuff CW, or even another DPS.
Hi verywiil, what do you think about the new boons and the new update. Is there anything that improves burnadin?
I am considering a massive revamp of the guide actually, thanks to a few more nerfs. There are a lot of things that happened that once again are missing from the patch notes. That on top of them reworking the debuffs, which we relied heavily upon, we kind of suck now TBH. I'm currently at the point of saying Burnadin is no longer viable. From what my dps was a month ago I would say it is down 50-66%, I know of a number of people who simply gave up on burnadin after these last few nerfs, and TBH, I can understand why, compared to our fellow Protection counterparts, we seemingly offer so little...
@veywiil Hey, I've read your guide and it is really well written guide. Not everything is up there what I would consider using but then again I'm not OP-guy. I think you should seriously revise your companions, if I may suggest while the guide is regarding "Burnadin" some sort of DPS-Healadin, therefore I think it should cover DPS companions such as Archons and Siegemaster or Owlbear Cub, but for Owlbear I'm not sure how hard it was nerfed for OP though.
Owlbear doesn't work for us, there isn't enough damage coming from one to even make it viable, when I ran with OGG, it was doing less than 1% of his overall damage which is super subpar. Traditional DPS companions don't actually help us either, we do flat damage, that means anything that boosts our damage does nothing to those flat damage sources. So siege master, archons, dragon cultist, all of that makes 0 difference when talking about flat damage. And that is EXACTLY why they are not mentioned in the guide, I considered them, then threw them away. I shall see where they fit now that the debuff nerf came through.
Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I was thinking about following through with what I said earlier (Running Prot as primary), but the more I read the comments both in here and in the guide post-nerf, the more miffed I've become when I think about it all. We (Paladins in general/Healadins in particular) have endured, nerf after bloody nerf from the devs and complaints (some valid, others whine) from the playerbase that I'm honestly amazed and impressed when I see other folks running a devotion pally.
I don't and wont speak for the rest of the Burnadin (near-Burnadin) community, but I still plan on playing my devo pally DESPITE Cryptic's use of stealth nerfs and class targeted nerfs. I've invested too much time, energy, and money (real money & AD) in getting her to where she is today. I wont let neither stealth nerfs (which I feel is either dev cowardliness, laziness or both regardless of the intentions) nor player complaints deter me playing and improving my DPS-Healadin. If that means I get overlooked or passed over by teams going in FBI/mSP or ToA well then best of luck to them. I'll just roll with my posse of friends and guildies and hit the hard stuff with them. I'll just keep playing her and hopefully the day will come when the devs relook at the paragon and give it a much need boost or look a certain mechanics (i.e. lifesteal) and give it some serious adjustments...so go ahead and list me as a diehard. That's my two copper coins and I'm off to do some dino-hunting!
What's going on with the title? Dev OP is healadin by definition.
@veywiil#8685 can you say more about Vow interaction with BG/HW? What's the damage loss if you are at 100% crit, using Orcus set, dmg companion setup, Vorpal/Feytouched and using Smite and Divine Judgement? Basicaly BiS Prot OP setup.
What's going on with the title? Dev OP is healadin by definition.
@veywiil#8685 can you say more about Vow interaction with BG/HW? What's the damage loss if you are at 100% crit, using Orcus set, dmg companion setup, Vorpal/Feytouched and using Smite and Divine Judgement? Basicaly BiS Prot OP setup.
I have made it very clear since the guides conception that this was NOT a healadin. I don't know who came up with the idea that all protection paladins are tankadins, and all devotions are healadins because that's just silly. I have seen many healing protection builds that do well and plenty of tanky devotion builds that also do well. They may not be perfect builds, but I have yet to see a perfect build. I subdivide by purpose, not by paragon path, because it is much more granular, and easy to describe. Healadins and burnadins have always been two very distinct beings in my mind, as have 'tankadins', and gathor's 'Shadowknight/debuffadin'.
This is how I view things, if other people don't that's fine. However, I have statted in multiple places that it be referred to as a burnadin and never as a healadin.
@trzebiat#2067 Since you are console, I don't believe we have ever played together. I wouldn't xpect you to know, but I'm quite low on IL actually. I have neither the resources here, nor on preview to test the BiS combo. I can provide you with a sizeable anecdotal however. I know you are concerned about what this means for console, as mod 12 hasn't hit you guys yet. This happened in the last 10 days.
One of the closest people I know to being a BiS (13-14k) Burnadin, recently stopped playing, and went to another class. The loss in DPS for them was too great. They were running Orcus, Feytouched, Divine, and Burning Light (Relentless for bosses). In an EToS run, they saw losses as large as 25 million from pre-made groups they used to previously run with. Keep in mind that's only over a 6-8 minute window span. Assuming an average of 7 minutes, they are losing 3.5 million damage a minute or the equivalent of 59,532 damage per second. For them Burning Guidance did LESS damage over the whole run than Burning Light did, which is absurd given how little damage Burning Light does. And yes, they did have ACT up.
It was mainly the BG/HW that was effected very strongly, most of the normal damage powers like DJ were critting for well over a million. Which makes sense given what we know about how the damage formula works, and how debuffs now suffer from diminishing returns.
As for the interaction between Vow and BG/HW. Vow used to be a debuff on a target that buffed all damage sources by 50% (50% debuff). It works now the same way for damage buffable (things that run through the damage formula) sources, like DJ, Smite, Oath Strike etc... However when it comes to flat damage sources like BG/HW, it does nothing, it sits there like a rock letting a 2000 BG do 2000. Bane however still works fine, letting 2000 grow. So to us, it was essentially a 50% nerf on damage for 5 man groups, because we traditionally never got a cleric, so never reached the debuff cap. 50% is technically inaccurate as diminishing returns also came into effect at the same time, so it depends on what other debuffs are going on now.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I don't get where did you come from with this "not healadin" thing. Healadin - heal paladin (just like tankadin - tank paladin), heal is the primary role for Dev, tank is primary role for Prot. I've been running Dev OP since I started playing (my first character) and I followed the same goal as I have now - spec CON/CHA and Justice/Aura Gifts, stack HP and Power and get BG boon, focusing solely on increasing damage because all the healing is taken care of by Bond+Vow (basically following advices from Sharp's Compendium). What would you call "healadin" then? Because that what I was playing since the beginning is sure as hell healadin to me and is almost the same to your feats/boons. The only exception being I value crit more (Force of Will) and went for damage over self heal boons. At low IL around 2.5-2.8k I was already over healing a ton, obviously off-tank (nothing special for Dev OP) and could tank everything including Orcus and also dish out good damage. Truly Jack of all Trades.
What you're saying about Vow, does it mean Vow is no longer a debuff? It should work the same as Bane. It doesn't make sense if they work differently if they both are debuffs.
What was actually nerfed regarding BG/HW? Proc chance? Heals from Vow not activating BG/HW? Or maybe they proc now from actual heals and not attempted heals? Just Vow not increasing damage of BG/HW wouldn't cause that drastic dps loss because most of the damage from BG/HW comes on trash where you have Vow only on 1-2 targets at once.
Most of the time I played, before being a devotion paladin, in any group anywhere, I always saw low damage on devotion paladins. 100% of the time. Every CN run, every eDemo, doesn't matter where, always less than 10 million damage, could be a 10 minute run or a 30 minute run. When I would go to look at their builds, it was Defense, HP, Recovery, and Deflect. Sometimes power, sometimes ArP. No I am not kidding you, I saw this a TON on PC. I did some looking on MMOminds, where I often find the good, the bad and the ugly for builds. I found something quite old that it looked like they were more or less following. Going back now, months later, I think this might have been the one. LINK. It's the only one that is recent and specifiaclly for devotion, there is another one for April, but Burnadin was more or less out by then. The link above was often what I was seeing. And THAT to me is the healadin. Everyone that I had seen until I made the burnadin guide, that was a devotion paladin was following something close to that.
And that's why I make it clear that we are NOT healadins. Because that build and the Burnadin one are leaps and bounds away from each other. So perhaps your definition of a Healadin and mine are quite different, based on experience alone. Constantly seeing builds like this on PC, all the way up into the 14k IL ranges, is part of what prompted me to make a guide so people would stop trying to do 10 million heals as a standard build, and realize that is overkill. It was like a plague of this build over on PC, especially in guilds and PUG's that I was in. Any paladin was either standard maximization of Templar's Wrath HP for the protection side. Or that build for a devotion paladin. Maybe others have had different experiences, but personally this was literally all I came across before Burnadin hit the table.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Burnadin is the end all, be all. But based on my experience, which may have been A-Typical, this is leaps and bounds better than what I had been seeing. I more than welcome a discussion over discord about this if you would like PM me, takes a long time to type all of this @_@.
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As for the Vow nerfs. Vow is working like a debuff for normal damage numbers like Smite, or Oath Strike. No change there, but for BG/HW, it just won't take effect on PC. Here's how I am testing, have a companion out, use cure wounds on them until BG/HW procs. Then use vow on the dummy, and use cure wounds on your companion again, you will eventually see the damage amount is the same. Now try swapping Vow for Bane, or adding Bane on top of vow, your damage goes up by the expected %.
My HW is 2/3.
HW normally, no debuffs: 5000 HW with Vow on: 5000 HW with 1 stack of bane: 5499 HW with 2 stacks of bane: 5996 HW with 3 stacks of bane: 6486 HW with 3 stacks of bane + Vow: 6486
There is another nerf to the amount of healing we are doing, not to BG/HW directly, I suspect foul play between how Prism and Vow were interacting, but since there is so much going on its quite difficult to isolate. If you get anywhere with it let me know. Even with ACT I wasn't able to pinpoint anything other than less 'attempted' heals overall. I once again welcome input here, I can't isolate this change.
Post edited by veywiil#8685 on
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I mean Healadin = Devotion Paladin, since any OP who chose Devotion paragon is a healer (same goes for Prot). No matter the choices made about gear, feats and boons the core of Dev OP which is healing is covered by just using two encounters - Bond and Vow. I don't want to even start with full Light Dev OP build and how useless it is in PvE. I mean what people who went Light were thinking?
Anyone who did some research should have been already running Justice/Aura Gifts (though I'm not sure how it was before the mod with Dread Ring on PC). This was my main source of information on Dev OP I used before even starting playing the game: http://mmominds.com/2015/11/24/sharpedges-pve-paladin-compendium-m8-devprot/
I just tested Vow and Bane with BG/HW on current mod on PS4 and I think I know where you did mistake. The damage of BG/HW counts (or just shows up in log like that, but then counts for OP's damage for paingiver chart) for ally that triggers it, not for you. Numbers from combat log: No debuffs and with Vow: Your Sellsword deals [2200 (2000)] / [6600 (6000)] Radiant Damage to Target Dummy with [Burning Guidance] / [Healing Warmth] - matches 10% uncapped debuff of Sellsword Bane: Your Sellsword deals [2860 (2000)] / [8580 (6000)] Radiant Damage to Target Dummy with [Burning Guidance] / [Healing Warmth] - matches 1.3*1.1=1.43=143% effectiveness. It makes perfect sense since Vow is personal DR debuff, and Bane works for everyone, so that's why Vow doesn't increase BG/HW damage, because the proc doesn't count for you so personal DR debuff doesn't apply for it. I ran nSVA recently on Dev and end up with top dps. Using Smite/Bond/Vow, spamming DJ.
I wouldn't call Dev OP totally not viable. People just have to keep in mind it falls behind when gearing up and increasing IL due to not many damage sources that scale well with buffs and in end game it'll never be better than Prot except for some content where it's still useful. Personally I'd recommend to stop relying completely on BG/HW/AoC damage and try to increase damage from other sources - getting up crit for Smite/DJ damage especially. Orcus set, archons... Basically aiming for BiS Prot setup.
It wasn't a mistake, I did a massive chunk of testing around it on PC. If anything they changed the way it works (much like what they did with commander's strike.) It used to count for our personal DPS over here on PC, I am fairly sure of this. I had a number of other theorycrafters pour over my numbers / test with me for this. Testing Vow interactions was at least a 4 hour escapade with @rubytrue. As for the whole BiS like a prot comment, I was already heading down that route as one of the options for the Burnadin in the new guide. I believe I mentioned this on FB before you posted. Unfortunately rewriting 20+ pages, and giving different build options takes a fair bit of time. There are some sacrifices that you make on your journey leveling up to BiS. So I feel that there should be some level based examples, like what you should focus on early on, and what to focus on later, and when to start swapping stats, and gear. Personally I am already making some transitions, however for those at lower item levels it doesn't make sense to build into some higher IL based things. Specifically Crit isn't something you stack early on for gear, power does you more good till you hit 10-11k.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
I went for power/critical/HP devotion build, that build was top dps 80% of the time in t1/t2 dungeons including CN. Trans lightning, magistrate patience, BG/HW, BL on trash, smite on bosses, Orcus set, archons, siege master. Now I am at 13k IL and Devotion OP for me is still better then Prot OP for dps (PS4)
I went for power/critical/HP devotion build, that build was top dps 80% of the time in t1/t2 dungeons including CN. Trans lightning, magistrate patience, BG/HW, BL on trash, smite on bosses, Orcus set, archons, siege master. Now I am at 13k IL and Devotion OP for me is still better then Prot OP for dps (PS4)
Not sure if the recent changes and stealth nerfs @veywiil is referring to have hit the console yet. If they haven't, just wait for it. With the proc rate for HW adjusted down (5% to 3%), the bond coverage of BoV reduced to 5 players vice all allies within range, and readjustment of vow to not provide the debuff to the flat damage of BG/HW...you'll see the difference in those numbers. Now if those changes have hit the PS4, and you're STILL able to rock 80% of the damage of a DPS class of at or near item level, PLEASE publish your build because I know there are some of us (Me being one) who would appreciate any tips you could provide.
Now if these 'adjustments' to the DPS-Focused Oathbound Devotion Paladin are based on Dev decisions and not systems glitches and bugs (Like Bond HAMSTER with the emotes), then its not too much to ask that they rewrite the tooltip to reflect what Vow and Bond ACTUALLY do and interact. If Vow doesn't boost damage from ALL sources, it needs to say so just like Bond needs to remove reference to all allies within its radius and state a maximum of five players. Making the changes but leaving the tooltips the same just reeks of laziness and dishonesty to me, which seems out of character for this group of devs who've worked hard at building up trust and communication with the playerbase. It would go a long way toward informing both veteran players of the class, up-and-commers, and players on the consoles of the upcoming changes so they can adjust builds and/or playstyles accordingly. As it stands now, its just creating more confusion, frustration and general angst. Two more of my copper coins.
Comments
You have to remember that this build doesn't just do a load of damage; you also have Aura Gifts, Aura of Wisdom, Aura of Courage, and depending on your WE, a whole ton of debuffing opportunities. This is on top of insane amounts of healing. Between your DPS and healing, you're going to get a ton of aggro, often times making you the de facto tank (even if you have a dedicated tank in your group). In all but the most BiS groups, it isn't uncommon for me to top Paingiver, Field Medic, Immovable Object, and Executioner.
That said, if you are in a premade group where everything literally dies within 2 seconds or less (and end bosses die in less than 15 seconds), the Burnadin loses its effectiveness because nothing has time to actually "burn" since it is obliterated....
I don't actually see the point of worrying about 6 months down the line in this game as so many things change that you have to adapt as they do.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
We do scale well with Power/HP. Aura of Courage is our 2nd highest source of damage, right behind Healing Warmth. It does amazing damage, and scales fantastically off of HP/Power. Please keep in mind, the Burnadin was not mean't to get you on top of paingiver. It was meant to give you a suitable source of damage. Right now those two things can be the same, especially when you have healing warmth and are slightly higher IL than other players in the same dungeon. This build does scale, just not with comparison with full DPS characters, which I'm totally OK with. We aren't meant to try to top them, we are meant to be relevant on the paingiver chart, and we will be able to do that in the future.
I understand your concerns, and I have tried to address them best I can, as they are valid concerns. But for the purposes of my target audience / IL, it likely won't matter. This build was not meant to be BiS, I specifically say that. You can evolve it to fit your needs as you began to understand how you want to play. BG/HW/AoC are a major part of the core build presented. You can find other sources of damage or variants of the build to help out with better scalability. That's what you are supposed to do with this build, it's meant as a expandable guide. You can stick with it, knowing what you are signing up for. Or you can experiment (which I recommend), and find out what works best for just you and your playstyle.
First of all HW got nerfed. This reduced out damage a fair bit, but is definitely still viable. From my intial tests I had determined that BG and HW have a 5% proc rate. My more recent tests show BG is still performing at 5%, but HW is down to 3%. Now this could be a REALLY bad bout of RNG hitting me, but it does look like roughly a 2% nerf. This reduces DPS slightly, and can allow AoC to top HW depending on your damage modifier, but really the % chance wasn't the big deal in this patch. The biggest area this changed things was 5 man dungeons.
Secondly, paladins are now being queued as either tank or healer, seemingly randomly. It might have to do with loadout switching, it might not. I believe this might be a mistake and not an intended change, although I'm waiting to see what the developers say about this.
Thirdly and most significantly BoV now only effects 5 players. This is a big dent to the Burnadins (and other builds that use Burnadin mechanics), and has dropped our DPS fairly significantly in most content. Anything with around 7 or more players, you will see a significant DPS loss from a pre-nerf timeframe. I am an advocate for this specific change. There were a number of times where the exponential growth of BoV was overwhelmingly large, especially in tiamat, and this caused severe lag for countless players. The limit of 5 people per Vow makes the growth factor stop at 25 (5*5), instead of the previous 2500 (50*50) in tiamat. 10 man dungeons were effected by the lag as well, although it obviously wasn't as bad as tiamat runs.
Now let's address a few points before I get too far...
- The current state of Burnadin is near balance. We can still do dps! It is no longer like 85% of what a 14K IL GWF is outputting. All of our weaknesses still remain in place.
- I am not OK with hidden nerfs. I simply can't believe that a number of changes were an oversight in the changelog. I don't know why these were not mentioned, but the fact they are absent troubles me.
- We play as a support class, we do comparable damage to a DC with a DPS spec. They can heal and dps, we can do the same. We play differently but for the same end result.
- I believe we are in a current state of balance, you need some skill to play a Burnadin to good efficiency, getting the rotation right, not dying, and making good combat choices are important. You are now rewarded for performing well, rather than it being handed to you.
- A max of 5 targets on BoV now means 2 burnadins MIGHT viable in 10 man content, be VERY careful with BoV, it only targets closest allies, with no preference to whether they are in your party or not. I would recommend 1 Burnadin and 1 DC anyway for 10 man dungeons.
With this being said, I want to make sure I reiterate this point. We are fairly balanced in comparison to what we are supposed to be doing. The DPS we HAD was too high to be honest, I know you like your dps. I like mine too. But it was simply to high in most situations. The damage we are doing now is modest, and while a skilled player can increase it a fair bit, we are no longer topping Paingiver regularly. I approve of this, we are meant to heal and do damage, and off-tank if need be. This allows us to do just that. On comparison with DC's which is the easiest comparison to make as a support class, we are on par with them in terms of both damage and buffs. We lack most debuffing capabilities that they have. We pickup some tankiness however because we lack some of these potent debuffs. We are nowhere near as tanky as our protection counterparts or guardian fighters, but we shouldn't be.I know people are super hung up on DPS and want to know how much of a loss this is. I have 1/3 HW and 1/1 BG. I run with 60k power with bondings, and I saw roughly a 20% loss in DPS. So 1 million is now down to 800k after the nerfs.
I will likely be making changes to my guide to include some of these points. Please be forgiving with me, it will take some time to redo the math sections.
It was fun while it lasted, but in all reality, the nerf was needed. The lag that was created before the nerf was making the game unplayable for a lot of folks. Now that the nerf is in place, I think I can share this pic as it ain't going to be happening anymore....
game - Human/real life - ???
OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
Debuffs available to DC:
- Bear Your Sins - 10% (passive, feat)
- Condemning Gaze - 15% (passive, feat)
- Divine Glow - 17.5% (always in rotation)
Debuffs available to OP:
-Bane - 3x10% and viable only for single target
In the context of the word debuff, which is for what factors in to the damage equation, you are correct DC's have the upper hand. Although things like AoT technically debuff, I understand your argument. Once again my apologies for misspeaking originally. We do not debuff well, we have only a few things as class features that debuff, excluding CC effects like stuns we have... (AoT, Smite, Bane, and Vow). That's not a lot compared to a DC by any means.
Now to the point of buffing which is what I originally meant to say, I believe we are on par, which is what I meant to say. We have Aura Gifts, they have Weapons of Light. We have ways of reducing cooldown, they have ways of giving out AP. We have ways of boosting party damage through AoC, they can do it through Anointed Army or through Terrifying Insight. We can run Banishment, SoF, or hold down Shift, and they can run something like Astral Shield. We do tons of healing, and so do they. That was what I was trying to refer too. Is everything a perfect co-relation, or perfectly equal? No, but I believe an argument can be made as to what we provide as a buffing support class, and what they can provide as a buffing support class.
At lower IL Dev OP is really good, but later it falls behind DC (as they can keep up buffs and debuffs much better and eventually run double daily - AA and HG) and with DPS once DPS classes gear up, since we're limited by fixed damage of BG and HW. It's sad truth. In end game content at high IL except some places where healing through constant damage can be really useful, Prot OP is much more useful, providing better power share, 25% DR with Circle of Power and overall much better damage potential thanks to not relying on fixed damage boons.
It really sucks. I'd love to see some changes to Dev OP to increase either damage or buffing capabilities. The fact we're forced to always run Bond and Vow in group content doesn't help. The small stat increase from Devotion Mechanic is mostly irrelevant, if any heal attempt would grant allies increased damage and decreased incoming damage (to at least beat DO DC's Terrifying Insight), then we're talking.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
I don't and wont speak for the rest of the Burnadin (near-Burnadin) community, but I still plan on playing my devo pally DESPITE Cryptic's use of stealth nerfs and class targeted nerfs. I've invested too much time, energy, and money (real money & AD) in getting her to where she is today. I wont let neither stealth nerfs (which I feel is either dev cowardliness, laziness or both regardless of the intentions) nor player complaints deter me playing and improving my DPS-Healadin. If that means I get overlooked or passed over by teams going in FBI/mSP or ToA well then best of luck to them. I'll just roll with my posse of friends and guildies and hit the hard stuff with them. I'll just keep playing her and hopefully the day will come when the devs relook at the paragon and give it a much need boost or look a certain mechanics (i.e. lifesteal) and give it some serious adjustments...so go ahead and list me as a diehard. That's my two copper coins and I'm off to do some dino-hunting!
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
@veywiil#8685 can you say more about Vow interaction with BG/HW? What's the damage loss if you are at 100% crit, using Orcus set, dmg companion setup, Vorpal/Feytouched and using Smite and Divine Judgement? Basicaly BiS Prot OP setup.
This is how I view things, if other people don't that's fine. However, I have statted in multiple places that it be referred to as a burnadin and never as a healadin.
@trzebiat#2067 Since you are console, I don't believe we have ever played together. I wouldn't xpect you to know, but I'm quite low on IL actually. I have neither the resources here, nor on preview to test the BiS combo. I can provide you with a sizeable anecdotal however. I know you are concerned about what this means for console, as mod 12 hasn't hit you guys yet. This happened in the last 10 days.
One of the closest people I know to being a BiS (13-14k) Burnadin, recently stopped playing, and went to another class. The loss in DPS for them was too great. They were running Orcus, Feytouched, Divine, and Burning Light (Relentless for bosses). In an EToS run, they saw losses as large as 25 million from pre-made groups they used to previously run with. Keep in mind that's only over a 6-8 minute window span. Assuming an average of 7 minutes, they are losing 3.5 million damage a minute or the equivalent of 59,532 damage per second. For them Burning Guidance did LESS damage over the whole run than Burning Light did, which is absurd given how little damage Burning Light does. And yes, they did have ACT up.
It was mainly the BG/HW that was effected very strongly, most of the normal damage powers like DJ were critting for well over a million. Which makes sense given what we know about how the damage formula works, and how debuffs now suffer from diminishing returns.
As for the interaction between Vow and BG/HW. Vow used to be a debuff on a target that buffed all damage sources by 50% (50% debuff). It works now the same way for damage buffable (things that run through the damage formula) sources, like DJ, Smite, Oath Strike etc... However when it comes to flat damage sources like BG/HW, it does nothing, it sits there like a rock letting a 2000 BG do 2000. Bane however still works fine, letting 2000 grow. So to us, it was essentially a 50% nerf on damage for 5 man groups, because we traditionally never got a cleric, so never reached the debuff cap. 50% is technically inaccurate as diminishing returns also came into effect at the same time, so it depends on what other debuffs are going on now.
What you're saying about Vow, does it mean Vow is no longer a debuff? It should work the same as Bane. It doesn't make sense if they work differently if they both are debuffs.
What was actually nerfed regarding BG/HW? Proc chance? Heals from Vow not activating BG/HW? Or maybe they proc now from actual heals and not attempted heals? Just Vow not increasing damage of BG/HW wouldn't cause that drastic dps loss because most of the damage from BG/HW comes on trash where you have Vow only on 1-2 targets at once.
And that's why I make it clear that we are NOT healadins. Because that build and the Burnadin one are leaps and bounds away from each other. So perhaps your definition of a Healadin and mine are quite different, based on experience alone. Constantly seeing builds like this on PC, all the way up into the 14k IL ranges, is part of what prompted me to make a guide so people would stop trying to do 10 million heals as a standard build, and realize that is overkill. It was like a plague of this build over on PC, especially in guilds and PUG's that I was in. Any paladin was either standard maximization of Templar's Wrath HP for the protection side. Or that build for a devotion paladin. Maybe others have had different experiences, but personally this was literally all I came across before Burnadin hit the table.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Burnadin is the end all, be all. But based on my experience, which may have been A-Typical, this is leaps and bounds better than what I had been seeing. I more than welcome a discussion over discord about this if you would like PM me, takes a long time to type all of this @_@.
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As for the Vow nerfs. Vow is working like a debuff for normal damage numbers like Smite, or Oath Strike. No change there, but for BG/HW, it just won't take effect on PC. Here's how I am testing, have a companion out, use cure wounds on them until BG/HW procs. Then use vow on the dummy, and use cure wounds on your companion again, you will eventually see the damage amount is the same. Now try swapping Vow for Bane, or adding Bane on top of vow, your damage goes up by the expected %.
My HW is 2/3.
HW normally, no debuffs: 5000
HW with Vow on: 5000
HW with 1 stack of bane: 5499
HW with 2 stacks of bane: 5996
HW with 3 stacks of bane: 6486
HW with 3 stacks of bane + Vow: 6486
There is another nerf to the amount of healing we are doing, not to BG/HW directly, I suspect foul play between how Prism and Vow were interacting, but since there is so much going on its quite difficult to isolate. If you get anywhere with it let me know. Even with ACT I wasn't able to pinpoint anything other than less 'attempted' heals overall. I once again welcome input here, I can't isolate this change.
Anyone who did some research should have been already running Justice/Aura Gifts (though I'm not sure how it was before the mod with Dread Ring on PC). This was my main source of information on Dev OP I used before even starting playing the game: http://mmominds.com/2015/11/24/sharpedges-pve-paladin-compendium-m8-devprot/
I just tested Vow and Bane with BG/HW on current mod on PS4 and I think I know where you did mistake. The damage of BG/HW counts (or just shows up in log like that, but then counts for OP's damage for paingiver chart) for ally that triggers it, not for you. Numbers from combat log:
No debuffs and with Vow: Your Sellsword deals [2200 (2000)] / [6600 (6000)] Radiant Damage to Target Dummy with [Burning Guidance] / [Healing Warmth] - matches 10% uncapped debuff of Sellsword
Bane: Your Sellsword deals [2860 (2000)] / [8580 (6000)] Radiant Damage to Target Dummy with [Burning Guidance] / [Healing Warmth] - matches 1.3*1.1=1.43=143% effectiveness.
It makes perfect sense since Vow is personal DR debuff, and Bane works for everyone, so that's why Vow doesn't increase BG/HW damage, because the proc doesn't count for you so personal DR debuff doesn't apply for it.
I ran nSVA recently on Dev and end up with top dps. Using Smite/Bond/Vow, spamming DJ.
I wouldn't call Dev OP totally not viable. People just have to keep in mind it falls behind when gearing up and increasing IL due to not many damage sources that scale well with buffs and in end game it'll never be better than Prot except for some content where it's still useful. Personally I'd recommend to stop relying completely on BG/HW/AoC damage and try to increase damage from other sources - getting up crit for Smite/DJ damage especially. Orcus set, archons... Basically aiming for BiS Prot setup.
As for the whole BiS like a prot comment, I was already heading down that route as one of the options for the Burnadin in the new guide. I believe I mentioned this on FB before you posted. Unfortunately rewriting 20+ pages, and giving different build options takes a fair bit of time. There are some sacrifices that you make on your journey leveling up to BiS. So I feel that there should be some level based examples, like what you should focus on early on, and what to focus on later, and when to start swapping stats, and gear. Personally I am already making some transitions, however for those at lower item levels it doesn't make sense to build into some higher IL based things. Specifically Crit isn't something you stack early on for gear, power does you more good till you hit 10-11k.
Trans lightning, magistrate patience, BG/HW, BL on trash, smite on bosses, Orcus set, archons, siege master. Now I am at 13k IL and Devotion OP for me is still better then Prot OP for dps (PS4)
Now if these 'adjustments' to the DPS-Focused Oathbound Devotion Paladin are based on Dev decisions and not systems glitches and bugs (Like Bond HAMSTER with the emotes), then its not too much to ask that they rewrite the tooltip to reflect what Vow and Bond ACTUALLY do and interact. If Vow doesn't boost damage from ALL sources, it needs to say so just like Bond needs to remove reference to all allies within its radius and state a maximum of five players. Making the changes but leaving the tooltips the same just reeks of laziness and dishonesty to me, which seems out of character for this group of devs who've worked hard at building up trust and communication with the playerbase. It would go a long way toward informing both veteran players of the class, up-and-commers, and players on the consoles of the upcoming changes so they can adjust builds and/or playstyles accordingly. As it stands now, its just creating more confusion, frustration and general angst. Two more of my copper coins.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac