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Short in support classes? Find out why!
dimmax
Member Posts: 4 Arc User
Don't you hate it when a tank leaves the queue? When they abandon the instance in mid fight? Always running behind and when you look at the scoreboard, they don't even top the 'damage taken' category... *sigh*
Well,... I'm one of those tanks. I abandon the instance mid fight quite often, on purpose, with a very good reason. And I will continue to do so whenever I feel it's needed. I even encourage all tanks out there to do so. Hoping to initiate a change all together. A change in the attitude towards tanks, or even the support classes in general.
[Alliance] PersonX : Normal sva needs 2 tanks 2 healers
[Guild] PersonY: mdemo needs dc and tank
[Alliance] PersonZ : Fbi lf tank
Looks familiar, doesn't it? Yep, as in almost all RPG games there's a shortage of tanks (and other support classes) Neverwinter is not different, it's a RPG, a Role Playing Game. Suggesting you're supposed to play a role. And agreed, this game is as unbalanced as my grandma dancing on a rope between two buildings, a tank is still a role. A role needed if you want to beat the content.
What is a tank? What is a tank supposed to do? Why do you need a tank?
No matter how you pose the question, you'll get the same answer in 99.9% of the cases: they're supposed to take damage...
They are supposed to take damage...
How? Seriously... how?
In most cases, not to say all cases, when I enter a dungeon, everybody takes off. They run off towards the first group of enemies. Or even worse, they just run towards the first gate/door or whatever is keeping them to run even further. They then face the enemies they aggro'd all at once. I always find it very amusing when they die within the very first seconds after engaging this way. It's funny how they go on their knees in the chaos they just have created themselves. Obviously I don't even bother to help them back up. Why would I? It's not their role to engage and try to absorb the damage done by the enemies. And certainly not all at once. Do they even realise a tank is built for that? That a part of the tank-role is to engage the enemy and brace for the first impact? Do they even realise that most enemies will pop their dailies as soon as they are engaged in a fight? Do they understand that this means that most enemies are at their strongest in the first few seconds of a fight and way more vulnerable after that period? No, I guess not... I'm sure most of them start turning pale when I bring up the words 'tactics' and 'mechanics' ...
In most cases the scenario of a dungeon run looks very similar: a careless rush with only one goal: getting to the end as soon as possible. As if every second counts.
I say a careless rush because they miss their goal only due to the way they run their dungeon. If they would run it in a less chaotic rushing way, and using the tactics the dungeon is designed around, they would finish the dungeon even faster. By working together and allowing everybody to fulfil their roles, a dungeon can be cleared pretty fast. Oh, and by the way, it's more fun for everybody then as well... But I guess that doesn't matter...
They rather are in the center of attention, rushing into a group of enemies, to die like flies. As a result the healer has to focus on them while he should be focussing on the tank. While it's the tank and healer their role to keep the group alive as a team... But how can they? How can they when the rest is acting like fools? DPS's don't use their sprint for in combat damage avoidance but to sprint to the enemies. They seem to want to be the first to hit them all the time. I can't think of any good reason why that would be a good thing. But hey, they almost all do it. Blind fury, a simple careless approach. Forcing the healer to change their focus, not allowing them to play their roles the way it should be.
A tank is slow, indeed. But he is designed to cope with the damage done by the engaged enemy. He should go in first and position the enemies so the dps forces can take their positions and pick their moment to attack very precisely . And not blindly rush into a fight, creating chaos and making it a mess and more difficult for everybody... If I would be in a real life situation with that kind of lunatics in my team, I'd shoot them right in the head, right there, right then. And let them not risk my life and get me killed.
A dungeon is a group instance. Most dungeons have a group configuration requirement. Why is that? Because it's designed for teamwork, to work together and play your role.
Being a tank or healer in PVE solo play doesn't really serve any real purpose. On the contrary: it's even a burden as most content is much more challenging compared to DPS classes. Yes I do have alts and yes I have a few lvl70 dps toons as well. I know what I'm talking about. Neverwinter is very DPS oriented, and it's the simple truth that the pre lvl70 content is very easy for any DPS class.
So why would someone want to play a tank or healer role then? To make a difference in a team! To do their job and support others in doing their job, to get stuff killed. To be the link in the chain. Not to run behind them and clean up the mess... Honestly, where's the fun in that? I fail to see it. Do they know that the support classes have buffs and other goodies to make them kill stuff even faster? And to make them shine on that scoreboard even more? Only if they waited a little longer and allowed the team to play their roles...
Yes you can run through a dungeon and gather all the enemies at the first gate. When you're overpowered. When you enter the cloak tower as a lvl70. Or when you enter a 1.6k il dungeon with a 3.5k + il. And that is sad. This game is poorly designed when it comes to dungeons, queue matching and tactics based roles. But that's the only situation when rushing through a dungeon is possible, when the team is overpowered. Then there's no need for roles, tactics or anything at all but damage to complete the dungeon. And that should be a team thing. Within your group of friends, guild or alliance. But never when there's random ppl involved. Or lower level characters.
I have seen low level toons in dungeons, barely meeting the requirements, rushing through. Of course they fail dramatically. Their build isn't overpowered and thus they run into a sudden death. Creating chaos, making the tank feel obsolete and forcing the healer to clean up their mess. They don't know any better. For all they care that's how the dungeons should be ran. That's how they 'learned' it. Because they saw others doing it too, successfully. Meaning they were carried by overpowered toons through that dungeon. And that's NOT how it's supposed to be.
As a tank I have other concerns than a dps or any other class. My build is designed to allow me to play my role as a tank. I'm putting power points and feat points into my build to support others and helping them to play their role. As any other build or class, the assigned points have to be carefully chosen. As a tank I should be able to rely on the group-formation, I should be able to put my faith in the hands of the team. I scratch your back if you scratch mine... but unfortunately I'm forced to change my build. I have to change my build to be more self-healing. Why? Because I know the healer will be forced to focus on the mess created by lack of team play. He won't be able to do his job and focus mainly on the tank who's keeping the team alive. All due to lack of role playing, the very goal of this game...
If I come across this kind of behaviour, I will abandon the instance. I will drop out and look for another queue, leaving you behind. I encourage all support classes to do the same and follow this example. Ditch them and let them behind. Maybe, just maybe they might learn there's more in this game than rushing like a headless chicken. Maybe they'll learn in time that there's even tactics involved in a dungeon and that the tank not only takes the damage but also determines the strategy and tactics. Tags (while debuffing) and position the enemy, determining the order of killing enemies. That the tank is also supposed to direct the enemies, together with the controllers... Anyway, the controller classes only acting as a dps is another issue in this game...
So are you short in tanks or support classes in general? Start acting as a team player and let them do their jobs. Let them boost your dps and take your damage. Allow them to play their role. If not: Hopefully you'll have to wait even longer to queue for a dungeon, not finding any tanks or healers...
Mod Edit: Removed/replaced many inflammatory remarks, name calling, and a censor filter evasion.
Well,... I'm one of those tanks. I abandon the instance mid fight quite often, on purpose, with a very good reason. And I will continue to do so whenever I feel it's needed. I even encourage all tanks out there to do so. Hoping to initiate a change all together. A change in the attitude towards tanks, or even the support classes in general.
[Alliance] PersonX : Normal sva needs 2 tanks 2 healers
[Guild] PersonY: mdemo needs dc and tank
[Alliance] PersonZ : Fbi lf tank
Looks familiar, doesn't it? Yep, as in almost all RPG games there's a shortage of tanks (and other support classes) Neverwinter is not different, it's a RPG, a Role Playing Game. Suggesting you're supposed to play a role. And agreed, this game is as unbalanced as my grandma dancing on a rope between two buildings, a tank is still a role. A role needed if you want to beat the content.
What is a tank? What is a tank supposed to do? Why do you need a tank?
No matter how you pose the question, you'll get the same answer in 99.9% of the cases: they're supposed to take damage...
They are supposed to take damage...
How? Seriously... how?
In most cases, not to say all cases, when I enter a dungeon, everybody takes off. They run off towards the first group of enemies. Or even worse, they just run towards the first gate/door or whatever is keeping them to run even further. They then face the enemies they aggro'd all at once. I always find it very amusing when they die within the very first seconds after engaging this way. It's funny how they go on their knees in the chaos they just have created themselves. Obviously I don't even bother to help them back up. Why would I? It's not their role to engage and try to absorb the damage done by the enemies. And certainly not all at once. Do they even realise a tank is built for that? That a part of the tank-role is to engage the enemy and brace for the first impact? Do they even realise that most enemies will pop their dailies as soon as they are engaged in a fight? Do they understand that this means that most enemies are at their strongest in the first few seconds of a fight and way more vulnerable after that period? No, I guess not... I'm sure most of them start turning pale when I bring up the words 'tactics' and 'mechanics' ...
In most cases the scenario of a dungeon run looks very similar: a careless rush with only one goal: getting to the end as soon as possible. As if every second counts.
I say a careless rush because they miss their goal only due to the way they run their dungeon. If they would run it in a less chaotic rushing way, and using the tactics the dungeon is designed around, they would finish the dungeon even faster. By working together and allowing everybody to fulfil their roles, a dungeon can be cleared pretty fast. Oh, and by the way, it's more fun for everybody then as well... But I guess that doesn't matter...
They rather are in the center of attention, rushing into a group of enemies, to die like flies. As a result the healer has to focus on them while he should be focussing on the tank. While it's the tank and healer their role to keep the group alive as a team... But how can they? How can they when the rest is acting like fools? DPS's don't use their sprint for in combat damage avoidance but to sprint to the enemies. They seem to want to be the first to hit them all the time. I can't think of any good reason why that would be a good thing. But hey, they almost all do it. Blind fury, a simple careless approach. Forcing the healer to change their focus, not allowing them to play their roles the way it should be.
A tank is slow, indeed. But he is designed to cope with the damage done by the engaged enemy. He should go in first and position the enemies so the dps forces can take their positions and pick their moment to attack very precisely . And not blindly rush into a fight, creating chaos and making it a mess and more difficult for everybody... If I would be in a real life situation with that kind of lunatics in my team, I'd shoot them right in the head, right there, right then. And let them not risk my life and get me killed.
A dungeon is a group instance. Most dungeons have a group configuration requirement. Why is that? Because it's designed for teamwork, to work together and play your role.
Being a tank or healer in PVE solo play doesn't really serve any real purpose. On the contrary: it's even a burden as most content is much more challenging compared to DPS classes. Yes I do have alts and yes I have a few lvl70 dps toons as well. I know what I'm talking about. Neverwinter is very DPS oriented, and it's the simple truth that the pre lvl70 content is very easy for any DPS class.
So why would someone want to play a tank or healer role then? To make a difference in a team! To do their job and support others in doing their job, to get stuff killed. To be the link in the chain. Not to run behind them and clean up the mess... Honestly, where's the fun in that? I fail to see it. Do they know that the support classes have buffs and other goodies to make them kill stuff even faster? And to make them shine on that scoreboard even more? Only if they waited a little longer and allowed the team to play their roles...
Yes you can run through a dungeon and gather all the enemies at the first gate. When you're overpowered. When you enter the cloak tower as a lvl70. Or when you enter a 1.6k il dungeon with a 3.5k + il. And that is sad. This game is poorly designed when it comes to dungeons, queue matching and tactics based roles. But that's the only situation when rushing through a dungeon is possible, when the team is overpowered. Then there's no need for roles, tactics or anything at all but damage to complete the dungeon. And that should be a team thing. Within your group of friends, guild or alliance. But never when there's random ppl involved. Or lower level characters.
I have seen low level toons in dungeons, barely meeting the requirements, rushing through. Of course they fail dramatically. Their build isn't overpowered and thus they run into a sudden death. Creating chaos, making the tank feel obsolete and forcing the healer to clean up their mess. They don't know any better. For all they care that's how the dungeons should be ran. That's how they 'learned' it. Because they saw others doing it too, successfully. Meaning they were carried by overpowered toons through that dungeon. And that's NOT how it's supposed to be.
As a tank I have other concerns than a dps or any other class. My build is designed to allow me to play my role as a tank. I'm putting power points and feat points into my build to support others and helping them to play their role. As any other build or class, the assigned points have to be carefully chosen. As a tank I should be able to rely on the group-formation, I should be able to put my faith in the hands of the team. I scratch your back if you scratch mine... but unfortunately I'm forced to change my build. I have to change my build to be more self-healing. Why? Because I know the healer will be forced to focus on the mess created by lack of team play. He won't be able to do his job and focus mainly on the tank who's keeping the team alive. All due to lack of role playing, the very goal of this game...
If I come across this kind of behaviour, I will abandon the instance. I will drop out and look for another queue, leaving you behind. I encourage all support classes to do the same and follow this example. Ditch them and let them behind. Maybe, just maybe they might learn there's more in this game than rushing like a headless chicken. Maybe they'll learn in time that there's even tactics involved in a dungeon and that the tank not only takes the damage but also determines the strategy and tactics. Tags (while debuffing) and position the enemy, determining the order of killing enemies. That the tank is also supposed to direct the enemies, together with the controllers... Anyway, the controller classes only acting as a dps is another issue in this game...
So are you short in tanks or support classes in general? Start acting as a team player and let them do their jobs. Let them boost your dps and take your damage. Allow them to play their role. If not: Hopefully you'll have to wait even longer to queue for a dungeon, not finding any tanks or healers...
Mod Edit: Removed/replaced many inflammatory remarks, name calling, and a censor filter evasion.
Post edited by zebular on
6
Comments
You do you though.
Ive been blamed also seen healers blamed for other ppl dying after running in like rambo, being the last one standing at the boss and its always our fault cos they died, then getting kicked ha, yh right.
Ill just stick to guild / alliance pre setup groups, 1st time successful runs.
Mod Edit: Cleaned up response to inflammatory remarks.
Lord White - 15.2k GWF
The One - 12.2k DC
Mystic Dawn - Guild
Mod Edit: Cleaned up response to inflammatory remarks.
the times ive been booted from group as a DC because two idiots decided to engage two different mob groups at the same time and 1 fool died whilst im healing the other.A team working together in sync is much better for all.let the tank grab the aggro,then the dps can get behind mobs for combat advantage for faster kills,fewer deaths,allowing my DC to keep the tank alive.
Although I think the OP is perhaps being a bit hyperbolic in the descriptions, the core idea is spot on. Many folks are interested in only their individual role and individual contributions, and not being cooperative / focused on party success.
I hate paingiver. It encourages fools to run ahead and to try to land the first hit because paingiver misleads them into thinking that they are contributing most when they behave that way.
Threat in this game is actually a pretty interesting mechanic. And once initial threat has been established it's more difficult to refocus mobs' attention (outside of a hard taunt).
It's not the tank's job to outrun the DPS, it's the DPS's job not to interfere with the tank. If they think that party clear speed will be faster if they engage first, they are wrong.
Now if we are running tankless, or with elite DPSers who can stay upright while acting like sillyhats then I don't actually care too much. It just bothers me when they bog down the run by dying and crying.
Finally, I think the underlying problem is that too few players play only 1 class, or only dps classes. Even for dps players, the mechanics involved in support classes are really important to understand if you want to optimize for cooperatively-minded party clear speed. I sincerely believe you can't really get it unless you experience being a tank or healer first hand.
If ppl actually waited what a few sec for everyone to catch up or even better just go thru as a group "together" this would not be a problem.
Tanks need the initial agro to swing the enemy around so every one els can mow them down from behind the enemy, if thats too difficult for you to wait a few sec then u deserve to die. So yeah jokes on you
Lord White - 15.2k GWF
The One - 12.2k DC
Mystic Dawn - Guild
Anyways, I don't have problems with tanks, I love gf's, but I do hate wasting my time waiting for others, more when you are running and people keep falling behind to go grab identification scrolls, ranks 5, etc or are busy chatting with their guild or others or mailing, salvaging etc in the middle of a dungeon. Time is AD. Also you got to understand the struggle between sweaty dpsers, they won't wait for you if their 1st place on paingiver is been threaten
In many instances, you are quite correct- many individuals are blind as to the 'needs of the whole rather than self'.
But I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.
There are very few 'Tanks' that play a tank-role. In fact, many tanks have a 'dps first, tank second' mentality. The same with pure DPS classes (and playing a DPS myself, it is indeed amusing watching other dpsers fall victim to their own shenanigans).
For me, personally, I run with a dual mindset. I don't know the potential of any tank that I end up pugging with. Since day one, that is the reason behind my personal 'never too much lifesteal' build. Let the Clerics focus on healing the tank, and the Tank do his job. At the same time, I also know that sometimes (ok rather alot of times) I've found tanks to be lacking in their aggro capacity (my HR has been running Lightning since Mod 6 before all the hype so I know the threat it generates) or sometimes the tank needs a moment to regain their health (in CN particularly).
I'm talking about the rushing attitude, teaching newbies the wrong things and make this game ill and roles obsolete.
This rings true for all classes. However, you can't teach someone to survive if they are not willing to learn. Nor can you teach someone the mechanics if they copy/paste other builds without any fundamental knowledge as to why certain things were chosen.
I'd like to run with you one of these days. Not often is my curiosity brought out when it comes to builds and playstyles.
I agree with the OP My main is an endgame GWF and the most frequent request I get is for the GF when guild groups are short of Tanks so I run that a lot.
I have a saying in the guild "this is why I dont PUG" Understanding a support characters mechanics is pretty important for survivability, if you don't understand How KV works (its not a bubble) or the GF shield when activated (cone of protection, positioning relevant to enemies etc) then your death is on you.
I have learned over many encounters that as a Tank you need to advise the team on each and every run how this stuff works.
Communication is key here, just because you have been turned blue does not mean you can all just stay forever in the red zone en masse and there will not be consequences (low geared toons with mediocre defense and deflect will drop the GF like a stone in these circs). The only solution to this is turn it off and listen to the whining.
My Ten Cents
"You got me through the door, now bugger off while I play my game"
My current main is CW, my second is GF, so when I run my CW I understand the role of the GF. I see my job as herding the mobs into a nice little group for the GF to aggro, and then dance in and out AoE'ing the hell out of them.
The whole race to the end ignoring as many mobs as possible, is a flawed method unless you're a bunch of characters who could solo it if the option existed.
One of my guilty pleasures as my GF is going on a work to rule if some GWF or TR has HAMSTER off to the door to the boss. I'll slowly plough my way through whatever I find leaving Speedy the option of either sucking it up and having to wait longer than if they had hung around and played the group game, or booting me and waiting for whoever takes my place to hopefully make it to the other end on their own.
To be honest, its very difficult to re-educate selfish people. Maybe we could concentrate on knocking some sense into the people who play DC and CW, and who wait till the mobs are nicely huddled round the Tank and then repel them across the map.
The way I see it is this: If they die, the game punished them. If they live, then clearly their decision to go charging off into the horizon wasn't a bad one for them. It doesn't cost me anything to run the dungeon at my own pace and if they want to go charging ahead of me, it doesn't really adversely affect me at all. The only thing that would really irritate me is if they go charging off, do something stupid and then blame me for the results. In which case, I would have no qualms telling them in no uncertain terms that it was their fault in the first place.
It is common courtesy however to stick around in the group until the end and give warning before you ditch a group, regardless of the reason you are leaving.
If they want to dictate the pace a game runs at, toss off and get a group together first. Call it "The Race of The Super Tough Endgamers as they Obliterate the L43 monsters"
Being a twat and not entering the circle when you get there is a different kettle of fish. But if someone runs off leaving all the monsters they shouldn't moan if someone takes their time catching up and they end up having to wait. It's not complicated.
I only do sub 70 when coaching a new guild member these days, though I do miss that Frozen Heart or whatever its called. I really enjoyed that. I would say about 60 or 70% of the time we end up with a 70+ pugger, and most of them dash off and end up waiting after the inevitable vote to boot my guildie gets voted down by me.
My advice is just run with friends or guildmates and let the random players constantly looking for support struggle on their own.
Was playing with three friends and a random tried to have me booted because I was not healing him enough. The truth being that he was the one running around and not playing as a team. Leader boards mean nothing if the group can't complete the objective.
The more people don't get it into their heads that running off on their own pisses other players off, particularly the "support" classes, the more likely it is those of us who have those characters that they stand in PE crying out for are going to ignore PUG play and go guild only.
Folk can argue and justify it all they want. The simple truth is that the more you treat Tanks and Healers like swipe cards for a security door, the fewer you are going to come across in PUG play.
I adjust my play style according to the needs/capability of the group. A well geared group means moving fast and tackling multiple mobs, a low geared group means doing them one at a time. If someone can't take being hit but runs ahead and dies then that's his problem - he can go back to the campfire and catch up.
However, I never abandon a run except where: (a) someone refusing to get in the circle (b) lots of attitude/rudeness in chat (c) someone keeps trying to votekick others.
I also play other classes so I have seen many instances where the tank (esp GF) is the main culprit for pushing the group ahead. They charge through mobs to the door but often the dps & healer are left behind trying to catch up - often dying in the process.
This of course means that these non-tank players sometimes get rushing tanks & sometimes stubborn, slow tanks that quit in a huff of ego halfway through. As such your efforts to 'teach' others are countered by other tanks.
Personally, I believe this is more of an ego-trip for you and my advice is; get over yourself.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Devs of this game should play tank or healer in few donjon to realise how bad the game is for them each days.
If damage dealer was weaker, without life drain and their was immunity to control for monsters it should been possible to play. All ppl they will been not tank ,would stay behind waiting for him because if they would go alone they die and all group die.
It was really fun to play FBI before nerf because ppl was waiting for u. Why? Monsters was giants immunise to control and because of frost damage = one shoot.
I will pick them up once and the second time they get to do the walk of shame, the long work hurts their personal dps pride so they tend to stay with the group after that.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
What if you could choose to deny buffs and heals to group members who got on your nerves?
I've known loads of players in P&P and LRP who refuse to heal/buff bellends.
Why not in Neverwinter?
I'm backing slowly away from the oncoming storm...
Now normally, I can tolerate some HAMSTER (like running far ahead of the support folks), but the fact that both the behavior and the harassment continued to the end of the dungeon and the rest of the party neither spoke up to censure, nor bothered to initiate a kick of this person, told me all I needed to know about my 'team'. You can complain and give me HAMSTER in chat on how I may suck as a healer (I'd disagree but that's still fair to criticize and grief in my mind), but when you inject race and gender into your criticism, you're left to fend for yourself. Have fun waiting for the next healer or tank to pop into the queue and run all the way to the end. Yep! I left them right at the door. Bottom line: Folks who chose a support role should try and suck it up and be there for the teammates that ARE trying to run the dungeon properly, but if a party member's (and possibly the party's) actions become egregious don't be afraid to cut ties with them. My two cents.
Mod Edit: Applied censor filter to a word not caught.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac