Letting players multiclass

ebemnared · May 2017

They should let us multiclass - won't be too overpowered, since you're still limited to dailies + Tab+QER+ at wills. I mean the 2 builds are a great start, but how about a fighter/rogue

wizardlvl80 · May 2017

Nope.

mightyeriksson · May 2017

A class change token would be nice though, with the new Loadouts feature, there is little reason for many of my alts to exist in their current class/paragon...

arcanjo86 · May 2017

with loadouts you can at least 8 different builds xP, multiclass would fit better if we had lvl 100 cap

tripsofthrymr · May 2017

Let's start with fully balancing the classes we have and then hopefully getting a new class before looking into multiclassing

-)

cdnbison · May 2017

I agree that we won't see it coming anytime soon, mainly due to the difficulty in balancing powers.

If it did occur, you'd need to really lay out some heavy restrictions. Like no more rank 4 powers if you pick up a second class, and each level in Class B results in a loss of total power points in class A (so if you took 10 levels of B, you'd be restricted to the 60 point mark in class A).

solbergx · May 2017

Why would you want to multi class? it destroys the concept of the game!!

beckylunatic · May 2017

solbergx said:
Why would you want to multi class? it destroys the concept of the game!!

Not exactly, as it really only depends on which edition of D&D you're looking at. But it wasn't really a thing with the edition Neverwinter drew most of its class inspiration from.

Various D&D CRPGs have had multi- or dual-classing in the past, with rules and penalties drawn from the source material. Again, varying by edition.

I would say that NW's engine wouldn't easily be able to handle multi-classing, even without considering balancing issues. It's the kind of feature that would likely need to be built in from the ground up, not added later.

bitt3rnightmar3 · May 2017

You can have alts.. Isn't that kind of multi-classing? If I get tired of playing one class I can play whichever other one I want.

thegreatmikey · May 2017

solbergx said:
Why would you want to multi class? it destroys the concept of the game!!

Well, multiclassing has a long tradition in Dungeons and Dragons. Waaaay back in the late '70's when it was Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (due to issues between the game's creator and the company that ran it, look up Gary Gygax versus TSR), as long as you were not human you could multiclass. Humans had their own variation of it known as split class.

Then, waay back in the late '90's's (I think), 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons came out with a different way of multi-classing open to all races. It made multi-classed spell-casters suck though, so if wizard or cleric was what a player wanted, they tended to stay pure. People otherwise would cherry pick certain class levels to "min-max" their character's combat ability or skill sets (ask an old 3rd edition player how many fighters had 2 levels or ranger and/or a level of rogue or 3).

Then way back in the latter end of the 2000's 4th edition came out, which is what this game is based upon. In 4th edition there initially was a poor mechanic for multi-classing that involved a class having access to a very limited amount of powers from another class... and it sucked as it weakened the original class and did not make up for it with the secondary class' powers. Due to popular demand, in an optional supplement rules were made for 4th edition multi-classing that had a much more true to the original multiclass build... that sucked HAMSTER! I mean, they were seriously bad. Underpowered and NOT delivering what was advertised. Most players general ignored multi-classing in 4th edition.

Now 5th edition is out and has been for a few years. Quite a few of Neverwinter's modules are based on the pen-and-paper modules (the timeline for them in the Forgotten Realms gets SERIOUSLY screwed up if you don't separate D&D from Neverwinter, so just keep 'em separate, okay?). 5th edition has returned to the old 3rd edition version of multi-classing.

So, in a nutshell, because there really was no multi-classing in 4th edition and the game is based on 4th edition, there is no multi-classing in Neverwinter.

adinosii · May 2017

No...please. Just imagine all the bugs this would introduce.

arcanjo86 · May 2017

multiclass would fit well to fight elite mobs/bosses(while doing dailies), and current stated of the game it doesnt offer much

Unknown · May 2017

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wizardlvl80 · May 2017

thegreatmikey said:

solbergx said:
Why would you want to multi class? it destroys the concept of the game!!
Well, multiclassing has a long tradition in Dungeons and Dragons. Waaaay back in the late '70's when it was Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (due to issues between the game's creator and the company that ran it, look up Gary Gygax versus TSR), as long as you were not human you could multiclass. Humans had their own variation of it known as split class.

Then, waay back in the late '90's's (I think), 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons came out with a different way of multi-classing open to all races. It made multi-classed spell-casters suck though, so if wizard or cleric was what a player wanted, they tended to stay pure. People otherwise would cherry pick certain class levels to "min-max" their character's combat ability or skill sets (ask an old 3rd edition player how many fighters had 2 levels or ranger and/or a level of rogue or 3).

Then way back in the latter end of the 2000's 4th edition came out, which is what this game is based upon. In 4th edition there initially was a poor mechanic for multi-classing that involved a class having access to a very limited amount of powers from another class... and it sucked as it weakened the original class and did not make up for it with the secondary class' powers. Due to popular demand, in an optional supplement rules were made for 4th edition multi-classing that had a much more true to the original multiclass build... that sucked HAMSTER! I mean, they were seriously bad. Underpowered and NOT delivering what was advertised. Most players general ignored multi-classing in 4th edition.

Now 5th edition is out and has been for a few years. Quite a few of Neverwinter's modules are based on the pen-and-paper modules (the timeline for them in the Forgotten Realms gets SERIOUSLY screwed up if you don't separate D&D from Neverwinter, so just keep 'em separate, okay?). 5th edition has returned to the old 3rd edition version of multi-classing.

So, in a nutshell, because there really was no multi-classing in 4th edition and the game is based on 4th edition, there is no multi-classing in Neverwinter.

I don't agree with the 4th edition part. Actually D&D 4 was designed in a way where your class was everything you needed. You didn't had a unfamous wizard multiclassed with 1 lvl of fighter, so he could wear a heavy armor and made every fighter in the game useless.

D&D 4 is a well balanced game, D&D 3 and 5 are not cause magic users are way overpowered there. I played D&D 4 for about 8 years and it was great for me. It's true that multiclassing was hamster but no one ever actually needed it. The classes, the paragon paths and epic destinies were cool enough and added so much more flavour to your character, you didn't needed multiclassing.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

wizardlvl80#5963 said:
I don't agree with the 4th edition part. Actually D&D 4 was designed in a way where your class was everything you needed. You didn't had a unfamous wizard multiclassed with 1 lvl of fighter, so he could wear a heavy armor and made every fighter in the game useless.

D&D 4 is a well balanced game, D&D 3 and 5 are not cause magic users are way overpowered there. I played D&D 4 for about 8 years and it was great for me. It's true that multiclassing was hamster but no one ever actually needed it. The classes, the paragon paths and epic destinies were cool enough and added so much more flavour to your character, you didn't needed multiclassing.

And there in lay one of the problems with 4ed IMHO. Every class seemed to have a multitude of strengths, back ups, and cross-class redundancies which sapped the flavor out of the game. There was little in the way of trade-offs except when you tried to multiclass. That multiclassed 10 lvl wizard/1 lvl fighter wearing heavy armor had to deal with some SERIOUS spell failure percentages, to the point where he or she was just another fighter. But we can argue the merits (and demerits) of 4ed another day.

WRT Neverwinter. I'd have to agree with beckylunatic in that I don't think the game could handle multiclassing well, even if it WAS a major 4ed feature. The variety of class combinations, their respective powers and their potential effects would probably make game play a nightmare. And since Neverwinter is set in 4ed, it seems only appropriate that the game follows those mechanics (however loosely they maybe tied to the table top rules). If you want multi-classing in a D&D game, might want to go DDO.

rjc9000 · May 2017

morenthar said:
Multiclassing, in this game, is a terrible idea.

A more realistic idea is to make campaign progress account-wide.

Offer the service for 20 bucks.

Watch money fly in from players fleshing out alts.

This one understands.

armadeonx · May 2017

OMG can you imagine a TR/HR hybrid in pvp? You may as well just shut it down lol

brewald · May 2017

Hi all,

Before speaking about multiclassing, it would a good idea to speak about prestiges classes.

It will be a good opportulity to find other gameplay and building nice backgrounds around our olds caracters.

- Adding a new tree after each paragonic one will create a lot of differents characters, not only 1 or 2 by classes like now.
- Adding new powers specific to each prestiges classes, not only one or two, only specialized powers

Few exemples:
- Oathbound Paladin

Oath of Protection (Paragon path) / Justice (Paragon feats)
- Dark Knight (new Prestige feats)

Oath of Protection (Paragon path) / Bulwark (Paragon feats)
- Templar (new Prestige feats)

- Guardian Fighter

Swordmaster (Paragon path) / Conqueror (Paragon feats)
- Gladiator (new Prestige feats)

.....

I let you imagine how your character could be after this add-on and discuss about this.

pitshade · May 2017

The 6 options that each class currently has aren't balanced. There is no reason to think the situation would improve with additional options.

- Great Weapon Fighter
Swordmaster (Paragon path) / Instigator (Paragon feats)
Bench Warmer (new Prestige feats)

btairborne · May 2017

Multi-class games have to be built that way from the ground up..logically.

Unknown · May 2017

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arcanjo86 · May 2017

Cw/hr --> Druid multiclass build / Arcane archer build XD

Cw mof/DC (Dragonborn) --> Red Dragon Disciple multiclass build XD

.......

aimeesellers · May 2017

wizardlvl80#5963 said:

I don't agree with the 4th edition part. Actually D&D 4 was designed in a way where your class was everything you needed. You didn't had a unfamous wizard multiclassed with 1 lvl of fighter, so he could wear a heavy armor and made every fighter in the game useless.

D&D 4 is a well balanced game, D&D 3 and 5 are not cause magic users are way overpowered there. I played D&D 4 for about 8 years and it was great for me. It's true that multiclassing was hamster but no one ever actually needed it. The classes, the paragon paths and epic destinies were cool enough and added so much more flavour to your character, you didn't needed multiclassing.

4th edition was seen by most long time D&D players as the worst thing that happened to the game... ever. WoTC fortunately realized this, and 5th edition went back to a ruleset more inline with 3rd edition.

As far as mages being overpowered in v3 ... I have to disagree. Even multi-classed mages had to abide by the restrictions of being a mage in order to use spells. You could not (by the rules) walk around in plate mail tossing fireballs even if you had fighter levels. Sure, if you split class with one level of fighter, you could use a sword, but it was still at the crappy "to hit" rolls of a wizard using a melee weapon. And who wants to be in melee wearing a robe? The non-human multi classes also leveled up much much slower than the pure classes did... having to split their earned XP between their different classes. At lower levels, this made the multi class characters more powerful in some respects than their pure counterparts... but at higher levels, they were seriously underpowered. An elf classed as a level 10 fighter / level 10 wizard was nowhere near as powerful as a level 20 pure class character... of any class.

In any case... how powerful a character on paper might be, has very little to do with what pen and paper D&D is. Pen and paper D&D is about roleplaying. Combat is only a part of it... and if you had a good DM... it was a small part at that.

For those of us old enough to remember what THAC0 (pronounced "thack-oh") stands for... 4th edition is something we would prefer to pretend never happened.

As far as multi-classing here... I dont see it working well or being a good idea. For one, its not built into the game engine. It would involve a total redo of pretty much the entire game. We all remember how well something of that scale went the last time they did it. We are still dealing with the mistakes of Mod 6.... dont get me started.

ambisinisterr · May 2017

beckylunatic said:

solbergx said:
Why would you want to multi class? it destroys the concept of the game!!
Not exactly, as it really only depends on which edition of D&D you're looking at. But it wasn't really a thing with the edition Neverwinter drew most of its class inspiration from.

Various D&D CRPGs have had multi- or dual-classing in the past, with rules and penalties drawn from the source material. Again, varying by edition.

I would say that NW's engine wouldn't easily be able to handle multi-classing, even without considering balancing issues. It's the kind of feature that would likely need to be built in from the ground up, not added later.

I don't think I can word it better so I am just going to steal this and ask you all to re-read it, particularly the last paragraph.

strykergaming · May 2017

As an original D&D player up through 3.0, I am surprised that they didn't include the classic dual classes for the game using the same restrictions that D&D had for said classes. Blade and Soul introduced the Soul Fighter which is a dual class of a Kung Fu fighter and a Magic type users. Switching between the two with one key stroke that lasted for 10 seconds IIRC. And they are using an older game engine too. I believe it could be a viable option if Cryptic explored this option. I for one would love to run a Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Thief or a Cleric/Wizard. But that's the old school D&D player in me.

silence1x · May 2017

Two words - Sword Mage

ambisinisterr · May 2017

It has nothing to do with the game engine and everything to do with the way Cryptic has designed the gameplay and combat mechanics. It wouldn't be overly hard to incorporate multi-classing but it would be near impossible to do so without breaking the rest of the game.

There's dozens of classes that could be released without being near impossible to balance and each of those classes could have multiple sub-types just like the Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter. Unfortunately because Neverwinter is nowhere close to being a literal translation of the D&D rules it really doesn't lend itself to multi-classing at all.

minotaur2857 · May 2017

The people who say it wasn't in 4th ed are wrong, there were 2 ways of multiclassing.

You could take multiclassing feats which allowed you to pick single powers from another class.

You could build a true multiclass character which got some of the class features from each (not a free choice, preordained) and could then choose powers from both classes.

I suspect both of these would be incredibly difficult to balance.

ambisinisterr · May 2017

It absolutely is in fourth edition. However NW is not 4th Edition.

Cryptic used 4th Edition (as well as every other edition) as inspiration for the mechanics of the game.

The reason why multi-classing in NW wouldn't work isn't found in any PnP handbooks unless you are looking at what is limited in NW and is not limited in PnP. You are not limited to one class feature, two at wills, three encounters and two dailies in PnP. Those are all examples of how Cryptic adapted the actual mechanics for the action combat game.

The mechanics are utterly different and absolutely not designed with the intention of multi-classing. Somebody mentioned the logical horror of an HR with the stealth class mechanic.

There's no class "Guardian Fighter" in fourth edition. That's a specific build. Cryptic chose feats and powers for the Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter that are available to all "fighters" in the game. They chose powers and feats which fit the builds and purposely avoided others that may have made one or the other overpowered.

NW isn't 4th Edition. It's Neverwinter 1.0 Edition based on D&D Edition 1-5.

malikinetok · May 2017

The only real reason we don't have more classes, races and multiclass is balance and the only real reason for balance is PVP. So make PVP completely separate from the PVE campaign. The toons you build can be used in the PVP environment, but with restrictions on gear, skills, and powers to "balance" the Player vs Player environment. There is no reason that the non-PVPers should be basically punished because PVPers cry foul every time they lose a match... This game is too old to have so few options when the game and version it is based on had so many...

gabrieldourden · May 2017

As of today I would say it's bad idea. Classes have been built on the basis that they are separate. Fixing all potentially broken combinations would take forever. By the way, multiclassing has been the bread and butter of broken builds in D&D too (see 4th edition broken DPS builds based on the ranger's Twin Strike power used by other classes).

Letting players multiclass

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