The additive damage buff from multiple archons doesn't work. The active bonus from each individual archon does. This is commonly known as having been tested and confirmed.
As for the rest of this thread, it boils down to a difference in philosophy and goals in the game. For those that min/max because they think it is required (it's not) or those who find it enjoyable, BIS is a serious consideration and debuff pets are going to be preferable. If you slaver at the thought of shaving 6.2 secs off your FBI time, have at it.
But, you can beat any content in this game with teamwork and a good party setup. Without that, no combination of FotM pets are going to carry you though end game content. Frankly, I regret that my main CW has Legendary Fire Archon, not because its less optimal, but because it's boring. My DC is rocking the uber-stylish Cockatice and I love seeing our guild runs with a mix of Aranea, Energon, etc...
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Fire Archon- Increases your damage against targets with less than 50% Hit Points by +4/5/7%" for Fire Archon.
Combined with
Air Archons- Increases your damage against targets not at full health by +2.0/3.0/5.0%. Each additional active Archon increases this bonus by .5%
Earth Archon- Increases your damage against targets by +3/4/6% when you are at full health. Each additional active Archon increases this by .5%
I'm not sure if the damage is increased but rather the defense/resistance is reduced. Which would give the illusion of an increase in damage. I only have a fire archon so I can not test a combination but in theory this seems most logical.
It's been confirmed that the damage increases in the tool tip are not currently working.
I'll see if I can dig up a thread / post that details the testing validation. (I'll edit my post when I find it)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited May 2017
For the purposes of looking at the dps increase of the uncapped debuff pets, you can ignore all capped debuffs, hell, you can even ignore arp, to calculate the dps increase of uncapped debuffs, you only need to look at the uncapped portion of the formula. This is because it is multiplicative with base effectiveness.
So for example, if you only have 1 sellsword, the sellsword will always boost the teams damage by 10% regardless of what capped debuffs you have, since you are multiplying by 1.1.
So, to calculate the dps increase of adding another capped debuff, you only need to look at: [(1+newsumcappeddebuffs)/(1+oldsumcappeddebuffs)-1]*100
For example, if you have 4 sellswords and are curious what the team dps increase will be by adding a 5th, it is, [(1+0.5)/(1+0.4)-1]*100=7.14285714286% dps increase. As you can see, in a 5 man party, even in the event that 4 other people are using a sellsword, the dps boost from the sellsword is still greater than every single percentage dps increase pet.
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,153Arc User
The average player also does not generally consider party impact when choosing the summoned companion.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The average player also does not generally consider party impact when choosing the summoned companion.
That might be true, but maybe the average player should
Regardless, some of the discussion is trying to show that even for personal dps the debuff companions are strictly better than fire archon (or any damage pet, for that matter)
The debuffs are being discussed and a wide scale nerf or fix is in progress. It has been confirmed
They did confirm that they intend to take a look at this.
They didn't tell us when, and they didn't spell out what they plan to do about it. And it's not all that clear to me that they are planning a wide scale nerf. Sure there's probably a rework in the pipeline, but the intended result isn't clear at this point in time.
Here's the quote I think is most relevant (from rgutscheradev but I didn't want to ping him):
If players find something fun, then even if it's working in a way that wasn't intended, it can be good to keep it. But if something is really mistaken, it needs to be fixed.
The part that's fun (well, for the people engaging in this system, which is probably a minority of the player base, although it is a lot of people on this thread!) is figuring out which of these debuffs to use and which not to use. And I agree it's not fundamentally broken from a balance or overall power level point of view.
But what is bad is that it's so ridiculously opaque. There's just a list of things that work one way, and another list of things that work a different way, with no rhyme or reason to it. That's bad. People should be able to make sense of things. Also, it's not fun to find out that your particular power/enhancement/companion/gizmo isn't doing anything for you because of some totally mysterious reasons.
However, figuring out the right way to have everything work isn't obvious.
Should everything be completely uncapped? That sounds really dangerous.
Should everything be capped? That will make all of you very sad, I think.
Maybe everything should be capped, but the cap should be raised a lot. By how much?
Maybe some things should be capped, and others shouldn't, but there should be some logical pattern to it. What should the pattern be? And probably the cap should be raised or lowered once that's been sorted out. In which direction, and by how much?
Other options include things like stack groups or diminishing returns (how exactly these should work is even less obvious).
In the time we had for these M11 enchantment changes (which, remember, started out as "buff Flaming and Barkshield"!), I don't think we could have gotten to a good solution to the overall debuff stacking issue. So that will have to wait. In the meantime, I think it makes more sense to do nothing (with the debuff stacking issues) rather than make some temporary tweak that would then change again when we did the real thing.
But at some point I would like to improve this system so it makes a bit more sense.
@thefiresidecat no it is not, best in slot is not what you like aesthetically or what you have preferences (or items available for, like your archon) for, best in slot is what mathematically therefore factually gives you the greater dps boos and that leaves that overrated fire archon out of the way, not only it gives less of a dps bonus, it only gives it to you so it objectively slows the team down (compared to running an uncapped debuff companion) and in my opinion it is something very selfish to do.
You can only argue math with math and nothing else as it dictactes the way things work in this game therefore uncapped debuff companions > everything else whether you like/agree or not, it is how it is with the current state of the game.
Sure you can do a good fbi run with other companions and team compsition + rank 12 bondings are extremely important but if you want absolute best team perfomance uncapped debuff companions have no comparable alternative, they give that extra increase in effectiveness no other companion combo can offer. Again, that's the reason no fire archon is seen on those videos.
Summoned uncappped debuff companions: okay let's make everyone more powerful to have bettter runs in any dungeons.
Fire archon: yeee this companion procs bondings an instant faster, screw my teammates' and my own effectiveness.
Fire archon (from console perspective): spend a fortune on a hilariously overpriced talisman of adorable bites (or whatever it's called), which usually is 5+ million ad or run IG until you become a grandpa/grandma. Just with the taliman you spend ap (at the very least) comparable of getting almost 3 companions from lowest to highest quality, you get a lower dps boost for yourself and you bring nothing to the table for your team with it. It is factually inferior. Having a summoned fire archon kinda screams "I'm incredibly selfish so can't consider increasing my teamamtes' dps, speacially that of fellow damage dealers grrrrrrrrrrh! Mah paingiver first, screw everything else!"
Don't forget that uncapped debuff companions are always in range of AA, WoL and BoB, you can't say the same about that already inferior fire archon.
you use a lot of emotionally laden words. any time people use words like selfish and what not. I read "me me me" as what the speaker/writer is really meaning. Even your title is using this kind of manipulative language, fire archons vs proper pets. it's a passive aggressive way of just saying you suck. do you want to be one of the cool kids or do you want to suck. It's emotional manipulation.
Honestly the fire archon is just fine. It IS a proper companion. People are allowed to make their choices based on what works for them. If you want to change peoples minds you might want to show other people a little respect by NOT trying to manipulate them in this fashion and actually keeping it a mathematical realm as you claim you're doing.
Are you having a hard time clearing content? Or is 12 minutes just too long for a dungeon run? Maybe things can be used, that buff the whole team, but how is it we are needing this for every single player on the team? Why does everything need to be a super ultra speed run? again, Are we having a hard time clearing content? (the only time I see this is when we have undergeared players attempting content that is too hard for their current gear level)
So what if the cost of things is expensive or difficult to grind for how does that make a case for or against anything. as I said in my case I got all the companion gear plus four from ig. I had what fit the fire archon so I use it. It cost me nothing really. but if I wanted to outfit a different companion it would be MEGA BUCKS or a serious continued grind. Because of this for me IT IS BIS.
If you don't have the double slotted gear for one pet and you do another that makes him bis for you in my book. The companions buff matters far less than the equipment you have for it. So far what I've seen here is considering the companion on it's own. I assume the assumption is that somehow magically you've got the correct gear for it or you've paid the many millions to have the correct gear for it. Otherwise if you have the correct gear for one thing but you use the other you're losing out on MANY MANY important stats and your individual dps will lower CONSIDERABLY.
if everyone does this and their dps has lowered considerably; is the buff still making up the difference?
My point is what gear you have does matter. and it is more important (in my ever so humble opinion) that the gear matches the pet than the pet itself. imo it is the role of support to roll with the support things. and the dps to be as dps as they can and then be buffed by the support classes. if a buff debuff companion happens to fit what works for keeping up the dps then great, use it it's probably bis for you. if you don't but you do have it for something else than THAT is bis for you. you aren't HAMSTER ANYONE by doing what works best for you. My experience shows, if you don't keep up your end of the dps odds are you aren't going to be invited back for another run and if you do you are on short lists for runs. people don't see your buff debuff.
but seriously, remind me again how we have a hard time clearing content?
- It is not manipulative language, it's called being straightforward so expressing things exactly how I think them, if in your culture that's seen as incorrect and you get sensitive about it I can't nor will do anything about it, deal with it, arc.com users won't adjust their writing styles etc to please you, you need to get off your high horse. If having people that express in ways other than yours or what you deem "normal" according to your culture etc bothers you then the forums of this game may not be good for you. Whenever you access to arc.com you need to keep in mind NW has players from all over the world, you can't expect everyone to express in ways you want them to, it isn't going to happen. I think I understand how you see my posts as I have seen myself writing styles I don't like either but, unlike you, I do understand "normal" is different to people from different backgrounds and I accept it no problem.
- If not possible to get the gear for sellsword/rebel mercenary the con artist is a viable companion, the Legendary Outlaws fbi run proves it. Check @thefabricant 's post on this thread, this page as well. You seem to be really underestimating how much Consumed by battle increases dps.
- Your "me me me" comment was very ironic considering it was you the one who went that "me me me" route when making a fire archon your summoned companion, it boosts your perfomance only whereas the summoned companions of both my tac GF (dancing shield and con artist, I summon either depending on whether the team has the former) and my SW (who's HB by the way) do increase my teammates dps too rather than only my own.
- What you like/have doesn't equal to best in slot, I explained it already and you disregarded it entirely. Fire archon may be the best for the gear you have, but that doesn't make it best in slot, it is mathetically impossible and Sharp proved it, if you disagree feel free to try prove @thefabricant wrong, good luck with that. Stating something in cap latters doesn't make any more valid, you could say that fire archon is best for what you currently have but that doesn't equal best in slot as it's a very specific thing. Best for you doesn't equal best in slot, slot is a big term there.
- Nowhere on this thread I have stated I'm struggling to clear content, check it out again in case you misunderstood something.
Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Weirdly, you can be completely straightforward without slinging insults or implying the other person has defective thinking for criticizing your approach.
You could have titled the thread "fire archon vs. debuff pets". That's neutral. You could even title it "fire archons aren't that great" and proceed to make your case, but that makes it about the companion's capabilities, and not your low opinion of the people who use them.
You could have refrained from commenting on the moral character of people who use other companions when you don't actually know if it's the companion that happens to fit their best gear, for example.
You were not told that your discourse wasn't normal. You were called on being disrepectful and using word choices to berate someone. Which you're still doing, rather than sticking to the numbers. Not getting defensive and trying to cast your critic in a bad light is a very valuable skill.
You can be right and not be all aggro about it. People can also be of the opinion that their different approach is still right for them, because it's good enough, even though it's objectively worse. Not everyone is trying to speedrun FBI. Some people aren't trying to run it at all. And they're not playing the game wrong, even if they're playing it less efficiently than they could if everything they did was mathematically perfect.
There's a really big range of "good enough" in between what's best and what's downright bad... like a summoned wererat, say.
In conclusion, wererats are bad, but players who use them aren't objectively bad, probably still just learning and low budget.
@beckylunatic I think I see your point but mine does stand, I'm just expressing myself in the way it's done in my culture, it is way too straighforward and honest and that can HAMSTER people off, I think it bothers mostly people from English speaking countries but as it is the way I am and I didn't meant to insult anyone I see no harm to do it. Sure, I have no problem saying that I'm sorry if someone felt offended but I won't go beyond that, no offence was meant from my end.
The guys I met and run with in NW (American, Polish and German) all express in a similar way to mine and 2 of them (especially the German) are a lot more straightforward than I am, he's brutally honest (as in saying everything as he thinks about it,like "omg you died you #$#%#$23!!") and we have yet to have a problem, that's because we understand that "normal" is something different to people from different backgrounds and it is natural to interact with like-minded people, just like @rjc9000 agreed with your statement (me being disrespectful) and the aforementioned indidviduals and other people as well would agree with mine. You're judging me from your perspective, what you deem "normal" and correct in your culture which seems to be English-related or something similar, culture in which compared to mine and German, from our perspective it is way too soft and kind of fake yet I don't ask people to write in x or y way.
Now you see what I mean? Just keep in mind there are people from all over the world here, you shouldn't call "disrecpectul" someone who communicates in a way you aren't used to
I think I expressed my point of view in a clear way, try to be more open-minded please guys, not everyone has your same background, as long as no offence is meant try not be so sensitive and be patient with people from other cultures Peace guys
I was re-iterating "are we having a hard time clearing content?" because if the answer is NO we aren't having a hard time clearing content even though everyone is wearing that dreaded fire archon.. then why is it so horrible if people choose a pet that you do not personally like very much? if the content IS clearable and in a reasonable amount of time then what's your beef? you are making out everyone to be terrible people if they don't use the things you dictate to be best. but why? if the content is clear-able and it's not taking 4 hours then why does it matter? the only reason such personal passion makes any sense is if you are somehow blaming everyone for your lack of dps on their refusal to equip a shred companion that will probably be nerfed in the next month or so.
and there was nothing ironic in saying the me me me thing. people DO think of themselves especially when they're spending their OWN money on things. this isn't a church group. it's normal and OK to think of yourself. using the word selfishly implies that somehow that is a bad thing and we should think of YOU more. because if you don't get what YOU want then the other person is bad. Selfish is the person using the word. the only point of the word is manipulation. Yes thinking of the group is fine. but there are a lot of ways to do that and just because someone does something you don't personally agree with does not make them bad or "selfish" it makes them doing things differently than you. end of.
Personally I've bought enough things that were flavor of the day and nerfed the next month after sinking millions in that I just don't go there anymore. that candy isn't so tasty to me anymore lol
you aren't putting things out there straightforwardly. you are putting things out there in a very emotionally manipulative fashion with a lot of personal judgement tacked on. If people have an opinion and put it out there that's not something I'm going to react to but when they use manipulative tactics and emotionally laden words in place of a real debate I'm going to address that. Becky put it very well and she was right. I suggest you stop for a moment and re-read things and re think things a bit and see if you couldn't have put it out there in a much more neutral fashion. Personal improvement is good.
@thefiresidecat one of the points of this thread was to show and prove why uncapped debuff companions are significantly better than fire archon and pretty much all other alternatives as they objectively give a great bonus not only to the summoner but the whole group, in that sense the FA slows the team down. It woulb objectively better for everyone if they use the aforementioned companions, and that's why it was tried with this thread both to show endgame palyers how they can achieve greater dps and those who are still wondering what their summoned companion should be are being given proof why uncapped debuff companions are what they should go after.
But well, at the end of the day it's up to people what to do with NW-related info and their ad as well, everyone can take those things as they will, like I told Becky, that often results in relating with like-minded people, I know I love to team up with people who have sellsword/rebel mercenar/con artist and dancing shield as summoned
No, I am not blaming anyone for any lack of dps, my SW is my alt and when I run it everything can happen, outdpsing, getting outdpsed, it doesn't matter and that's why she's HB (with power of nine hells) instead of soulbinder, I like helping teammates to hit harder just like 2 days ago this GWF was doing over twice my damage in fbi (4 people including myself buffing him to the moon) and we all had good laughs and certainly a lot of fun seeing him murdering everything, I pm'ed him and congratulated him for having that damage output and yes, his summoned companion is an uncapped debuff one, the con artist
My "beef" (if by that you mean "gripe") with many guides up to date recommending fire archon as summoned and worse, stating is best in slot (it isn't by any means, not even close) is that stops people from having the great dps boost from uncapped companions and as those guides are followed in a pretty copy pasta way a lot of people ends up missing their dps potential and once they are picked up randomly (like zone/looking for group channel) even though the runs can go still pretty smooth, it doesn't feel right it could have been done better had the group member have an uncapped debuff companion.
I think this reply should help you understand my point of view on summoned companions
Guys this thread already ran its course, I won't please anyone by expressing myself in a way I normally wouldn't, if you took offence with my posts I can't do much about it, I meant no offence and just expressed what I thought, thanks for the help to those who did. Peace.
@beckylunatic I think I see your point but mine does stand, I'm just expressing myself in the way it's done in my culture, it is way too straighforward and honest and that can HAMSTER people off, I think it bothers mostly people from English speaking countries but as it is the way I am and I didn't meant to insult anyone I see no harm to do it. Sure, I have no problem saying that I'm sorry if someone felt offended but I won't go beyond that, no offence was meant from my end.
The guys I met and run with in NW (American, Polish and German) all express in a similar way to mine and 2 of them (especially the German) are a lot more straightforward than I am, he's brutally honest (as in saying everything as he thinks about it,like "omg you died you #$#%#$23!!") and we have yet to have a problem, that's because we understand that "normal" is something different to people from different backgrounds and it is natural to interact with like-minded people, just like @rjc9000 agreed with your statement (me being disrespectful) and the aforementioned indidviduals and other people as well would agree with mine. You're judging me from your perspective, what you deem "normal" and correct in your culture which seems to be English-related or something similar, culture in which compared to mine and German, from our perspective it is way too soft and kind of fake yet I don't ask people to write in x or y way.
Now you see what I mean? Just keep in mind there are people from all over the world here, you shouldn't call "disrecpectul" someone who communicates in a way you aren't used to
I think I expressed my point of view in a clear way, try to be more open-minded please guys, not everyone has your same background, as long as no offence is meant try not be so sensitive and be patient with people from other cultures Peace guys
I like being brutally honest, because for one thing, subtlety isn't my style.
But, the thing is, you u can't force someone to understand something. As much as I'd like to transmit my understanding of GF to newbies, I can't. I can only reveal my thoughts through writing and speaking, and hoping that people understand.
Trying to browbeat people into understanding something is pointless.
(Why the hell is my philsophy skill coming now and not in class????)
@rjc9000 you have always helped me whenever you can and I respect you very much, that's the reason I came back to this thread once more to reply to you.
I am not forcing people to understand, I'm just stating that there are things that will be seen and taken differently depending on people's culture (example, how people here think of me as disrespectful and how people somewhere else don't at all) and I'm simply pointing that out so it can be kept in mind, that's all bro Take care and good luck with phylosophy class xD
I am not browbeating people into understanding anything, the issue is perspective, I'm too disrespectful from yours guys and from mine you are getting me wrong and too personally, like I said several times, peace guys
This is why I run w guildes only for the most part or low level PUGs. Nobody really cares -----sometimes we go fast and sometimes slow depending on dungeon, composition and IL.
We try to have fun while we are playing. If people are getting angry, maybe games are less of an outlet to them and more of a chore that they feel must be accomplished in a certain way/speed.
I try not to run in high level PUGs for this reason. I do my best to help teams but I despise elitism.
It is, after all, a game and should be treated as such. Nothing wrong w min/maxing as long as you are not an A Hole in chat to others.....who dont.
That said, I still love my FA .....and my Con Artist
@thefiresidecat one of the points of this thread was to show and prove why uncapped debuff companions are significantly better than fire archon and pretty much all other alternatives as they objectively give a great bonus not only to the summoner but the whole group, in that sense the FA slows the team down. It woulb objectively better for everyone if they use the aforementioned companions, and that's why it was tried with this thread both to show endgame palyers how they can achieve greater dps and those who are still wondering what their summoned companion should be are being given proof why uncapped debuff companions are what they should go after.
But well, at the end of the day it's up to people what to do with NW-related info and their ad as well, everyone can take those things as they will, like I told Becky, that often results in relating with like-minded people, I know I love to team up with people who have sellsword/rebel mercenar/con artist and dancing shield as summoned
No, I am not blaming anyone for any lack of dps, my SW is my alt and when I run it everything can happen, outdpsing, getting outdpsed, it doesn't matter and that's why she's HB (with power of nine hells) instead of soulbinder, I like helping teammates to hit harder just like 2 days ago this GWF was doing over twice my damage in fbi (4 people including myself buffing him to the moon) and we all had good laughs and certainly a lot of fun seeing him murdering everything, I pm'ed him and congratulated him for having that damage output and yes, his summoned companion is an uncapped debuff one, the con artist
My "beef" (if by that you mean "gripe") with many guides up to date recommending fire archon as summoned and worse, stating is best in slot (it isn't by any means, not even close) is that stops people from having the great dps boost from uncapped companions and as those guides are followed in a pretty copy pasta way a lot of people ends up missing their dps potential and once they are picked up randomly (like zone/looking for group channel) even though the runs can go still pretty smooth, it doesn't feel right it could have been done better had the group member have an uncapped debuff companion.
I think this reply should help you understand my point of view on summoned companions
@rjc9000 you have always helped me whenever you can and I respect you very much, that's the reason I came back to this thread once more to reply to you.
I am not forcing people to understand, I'm just stating that there are things that will be seen and taken differently depending on people's culture (example, how people here think of me as disrespectful and how people somewhere else don't at all) and I'm simply pointing that out so it can be kept in mind, that's all bro Take care and good luck with phylosophy class xD
I am not browbeating people into understanding anything, the issue is perspective, I'm too disrespectful from yours guys and from mine you are getting me wrong and too personally, like I said several times, peace guys
it's not a language barrier. it's a word choice problem you seem quiet fluent to me and quite in command of your meanings and phraseology. but you don't seem to understand what we're calling out here. it's neutral vs emotionally laden. you are making your arguments by putting value judgements into them. if someone agrees with you they are a good person. if they disagree they are a bad person. this is the problem. If you left that out of your argument no one would have a problem with it. things you like get flowery positive adverbs things you like get hateful overly negative ones.
when really at the end of the day the difference is NOT THAT HUGE. we're not talking hours here. we're probably not even talking half hours. we're talking min max which isn't that big a deal. the archon is a fine choice. the sellsword is a fine choice as is the conartist. (ect, ) but only if you have the right gear for them. there is NOTHING wrong with people choosing something other than what you dictate to be the best and it isn't going to cause a run to be worse than another run by any great margin. Personally I'd lose 6620 in attack stats alone not counting the stats on the companion gear itself if I were to switch to the sellsword. my dps would not take a small hit.. it would take a pretty huge one. by the time I managed to grind away the right gear it will be nerfed lol. I don't think people are blindly following guides as far as which pets are best. I think people are doing what works for them. the archon is a good solid dependable companion which isn't op and therefore not due for a nerf any time soon which makes it a solid choice. getting a pet to legendary is expensive and it does make a difference for a summoned companion because the stats will be higher on it. yea you don't absolutely have to have a legendary pet summoned but if you have one why would you want to use a different one. I'd want what ever I have summoned at legendary personally. Whereas with something like the sellsword you have to have it summoned for the benefits and as soon as it's nerfed it's probably going to be back to the stable for it. it has a terrible active bonus. Worse than the wererat. In the mean time people will have literally spend millions on it. getting it to purple or legendary. getting the right gear for it.. yeah it's the IT pet.. For now.. but a lot of us have been slapped enough by this game to realize that and not jump on the new pet of the month bandwagon. that's why you still see armies of air and fire archons. and that's why you're going to continue to see armies of them. Most people are just fine with "good enough"
My money goes into enchants. those are stable. and I still need a lot more 12's. I'd much rather have a lot of r12s than a pet that's going to be nerfed at some point because too many people are using it that I do not have proper gear for.
not every run has to be a worlds record speed run and the more of those done the FASTER your favorite pet will be Nerfed. heck we're about to have another pet of the month nerfed I think it already hit pc.
Keep in mind, when we use things that are in "their" opinion broken, and we as a community make videos of how great we are for one shooting heads in Tiamat or one shooting Drufi, they take stuff away from us. Just look at what they did to the High Prophet Cleric and the power share. I get it, 15 min runs of FBI are hot! But the fact that content designed to be difficult is now a cake walk, they always pull our collars and nerf the things we show boat on. Just because someone wants to make a show off livestream or a YouTube vid about how great they are.
Who in their right mind watches videos of someone else having fun? That takes time away from actually playing.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Keep in mind, when we use things that are in "their" opinion broken, and we as a community make videos of how great we are for one shooting heads in Tiamat or one shooting Drufi, they take stuff away from us. Just look at what they did to the High Prophet Cleric and the power share. I get it, 15 min runs of FBI are hot! But the fact that content designed to be difficult is now a cake walk, they always pull our collars and nerf the things we show boat on. Just because someone wants to make a show off livestream or a YouTube vid about how great they are.
I'm a noob when it comes to neverwinter maths, but as a dps SW, it seemed to me from the very begining that the Con Artist was the best option for me.
For many reasons - easier to get good rings than good necklace or belt. - the 10% debuff stacks with otherscon artists in party - under 3,5k, you may not have enought defense for endgame. I prefer do less damage and stay alive than do more damage but if you die a lot you dont dps while dead... - he goes straight to the ennemis givinge time to cast my spells. The archon stay at range and i take the aggro when playing solo.
My con artist is still blue, i don't care if he's down a lot, while he's on the ground, i still benefit bondings.
So i use archons earth, air and fire and owlbear cub as passives and con artist as active.
BUT i prefer things staying like they are, many different companions used by players. From my little experience, when too much players use the same build mechanic or same gear, it gets nerfed.
So let them use archons as active so they'll dont touch our debuff pets xD
I come across many warlocks with higher Ilvl than me that are pissed off by my output dps as i have less than 20k raw power and.. what a surprise, most of them use archons and stack power before arm pen xD
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I had similar talks with friends owning HV or HP set. Using it lowered your personal dps, compared to other players, but made the runs faster. I did got pmed by random players, asking, if I am stupid running a BIS CW with HV set. I told them, that he is BIS bc of the set. Some understood it, many did not.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set. My final statement was, in a good group with other dps HV is the smart choice and other gear is the ego noobs choice. In following arguments regarding sellsword, builds etc. my friends concluded on their own, 'ok, I get it, this is the smart choice and this is the ego noob choice', even if they did not follow my arguments and did use other companions, builds etc. I did never disrespect them or wanted to insult them. I like them and I accept their choice, no matter the fact, that I dont share it.
The only thing you can do is inform your fellow players and help them make an informed decision. If it is the same decision I would have made is not relevant.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
My final statement was, in a good group with other dps HV is the smart choice and other gear is the ego noobs choice. .
My statement allways was: Every group with ole sets is a noob group. I hope thats okay to say so. BTT: Im glad to loose some personel dps as a GWF and the group dps is higher and makes dungeons faster/bosses easier. Thats why i use sellsword instead of archon
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
@asterotg this so much this. It's good to see at least 1 person (you) gets it and it's called culture. In some cultures people tend to express in a blunt way (mine and my friends' both irl and NW, may be seen as rude) and in others in cotton candy (cat, becky, litaeers and rjc, may be seen and be felt as fake, this is my case and that of people I insteract with) and not accepting that is quite narrow-minded. Cap letter spam (firecat's posts) is very disrespectful in my culture but I didn't ask nor expect him not to write like that (unlike him, litaeers, becky and rjc) as I understand it's seen as normal by him and in his background.
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their summoned one
Comments
As for the rest of this thread, it boils down to a difference in philosophy and goals in the game. For those that min/max because they think it is required (it's not) or those who find it enjoyable, BIS is a serious consideration and debuff pets are going to be preferable. If you slaver at the thought of shaving 6.2 secs off your FBI time, have at it.
But, you can beat any content in this game with teamwork and a good party setup. Without that, no combination of FotM pets are going to carry you though end game content. Frankly, I regret that my main CW has Legendary Fire Archon, not because its less optimal, but because it's boring. My DC is rocking the uber-stylish Cockatice and I love seeing our guild runs with a mix of Aranea, Energon, etc...
It actually makes the math even more convincing:
@ 200% capped, 50% uncapped
1,000 * (2.0) * (1.5) = 3,000
@ 200% capped, 60% uncapped
1,000 * (2.0) * (1.6) = 3,200
(3,200 - 3,000) / (3,000) = 0.066666 which is a 6.67% damage increase for the "worst case steady state scenario".
And best case if you have no other debuffs
@ 100% capped, 0% uncapped
1,000 * (1.0) * (1.0) = 1,000
@ 100% capped, 10% uncapped
1,000 * (1.0) * (1.1) = 1,100
(1,100 - 1,000) / (1,000) = 0.1 which is the expected 10% damage increase.
Even if you are not mitigating enemy DR
@ 40% capped, 0% capped
1,000 * (0.4) * (1.0) = 400
@ 40% capped, 10% uncapped
1,000 * (0.4) * (1.1) = 440
(440 - 400) / (400) = 0.1 which is still 10% damage increase.
Between no debuffs and capped debuffs, the personal damage contribution decreases from 10% to 6.67%.
That also means that apart from proc speed / uptime, sword trio debuff companions provide better _personal_ damage boost than fire archon too.
I'll see if I can dig up a thread / post that details the testing validation. (I'll edit my post when I find it)
- Forge (GF)
- Apocalypse - (DC)
- Sadus (OP)
- Fireball (GWF)
- Ixian (CW)
Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....
So for example, if you only have 1 sellsword, the sellsword will always boost the teams damage by 10% regardless of what capped debuffs you have, since you are multiplying by 1.1.
So, to calculate the dps increase of adding another capped debuff, you only need to look at:
[(1+newsumcappeddebuffs)/(1+oldsumcappeddebuffs)-1]*100
For example, if you have 4 sellswords and are curious what the team dps increase will be by adding a 5th, it is, [(1+0.5)/(1+0.4)-1]*100=7.14285714286% dps increase. As you can see, in a 5 man party, even in the event that 4 other people are using a sellsword, the dps boost from the sellsword is still greater than every single percentage dps increase pet.
Regardless, some of the discussion is trying to show that even for personal dps the debuff companions are strictly better than fire archon (or any damage pet, for that matter)
At least until debuffs get reworked.
They didn't tell us when, and they didn't spell out what they plan to do about it. And it's not all that clear to me that they are planning a wide scale nerf. Sure there's probably a rework in the pipeline, but the intended result isn't clear at this point in time.
Here's the quote I think is most relevant (from rgutscheradev but I didn't want to ping him): https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12930349
Honestly the fire archon is just fine. It IS a proper companion. People are allowed to make their choices based on what works for them. If you want to change peoples minds you might want to show other people a little respect by NOT trying to manipulate them in this fashion and actually keeping it a mathematical realm as you claim you're doing.
Are you having a hard time clearing content? Or is 12 minutes just too long for a dungeon run? Maybe things can be used, that buff the whole team, but how is it we are needing this for every single player on the team? Why does everything need to be a super ultra speed run? again, Are we having a hard time clearing content? (the only time I see this is when we have undergeared players attempting content that is too hard for their current gear level)
So what if the cost of things is expensive or difficult to grind for how does that make a case for or against anything. as I said in my case I got all the companion gear plus four from ig. I had what fit the fire archon so I use it. It cost me nothing really. but if I wanted to outfit a different companion it would be MEGA BUCKS or a serious continued grind. Because of this for me IT IS BIS.
If you don't have the double slotted gear for one pet and you do another that makes him bis for you in my book. The companions buff matters far less than the equipment you have for it. So far what I've seen here is considering the companion on it's own. I assume the assumption is that somehow magically you've got the correct gear for it or you've paid the many millions to have the correct gear for it. Otherwise if you have the correct gear for one thing but you use the other you're losing out on MANY MANY important stats and your individual dps will lower CONSIDERABLY.
if everyone does this and their dps has lowered considerably; is the buff still making up the difference?
My point is what gear you have does matter. and it is more important (in my ever so humble opinion) that the gear matches the pet than the pet itself. imo it is the role of support to roll with the support things. and the dps to be as dps as they can and then be buffed by the support classes. if a buff debuff companion happens to fit what works for keeping up the dps then great, use it it's probably bis for you. if you don't but you do have it for something else than THAT is bis for you. you aren't HAMSTER ANYONE by doing what works best for you. My experience shows, if you don't keep up your end of the dps odds are you aren't going to be invited back for another run and if you do you are on short lists for runs. people don't see your buff debuff.
but seriously, remind me again how we have a hard time clearing content?
- It is not manipulative language, it's called being straightforward so expressing things exactly how I think them, if in your culture that's seen as incorrect and you get sensitive about it I can't nor will do anything about it, deal with it, arc.com users won't adjust their writing styles etc to please you, you need to get off your high horse. If having people that express in ways other than yours or what you deem "normal" according to your culture etc bothers you then the forums of this game may not be good for you. Whenever you access to arc.com you need to keep in mind NW has players from all over the world, you can't expect everyone to express in ways you want them to, it isn't going to happen. I think I understand how you see my posts as I have seen myself writing styles I don't like either but, unlike you, I do understand "normal" is different to people from different backgrounds and I accept it no problem.
- If not possible to get the gear for sellsword/rebel mercenary the con artist is a viable companion, the Legendary Outlaws fbi run proves it. Check @thefabricant 's post on this thread, this page as well. You seem to be really underestimating how much Consumed by battle increases dps.
- Your "me me me" comment was very ironic considering it was you the one who went that "me me me" route when making a fire archon your summoned companion, it boosts your perfomance only whereas the summoned companions of both my tac GF (dancing shield and con artist, I summon either depending on whether the team has the former) and my SW (who's HB by the way) do increase my teammates dps too rather than only my own.
- What you like/have doesn't equal to best in slot, I explained it already and you disregarded it entirely. Fire archon may be the best for the gear you have, but that doesn't make it best in slot, it is mathetically impossible and Sharp proved it, if you disagree feel free to try prove @thefabricant wrong, good luck with that. Stating something in cap latters doesn't make any more valid, you could say that fire archon is best for what you currently have but that doesn't equal best in slot as it's a very specific thing. Best for you doesn't equal best in slot, slot is a big term there.
- Nowhere on this thread I have stated I'm struggling to clear content, check it out again in case you misunderstood something.
You could have titled the thread "fire archon vs. debuff pets". That's neutral. You could even title it "fire archons aren't that great" and proceed to make your case, but that makes it about the companion's capabilities, and not your low opinion of the people who use them.
You could have refrained from commenting on the moral character of people who use other companions when you don't actually know if it's the companion that happens to fit their best gear, for example.
You were not told that your discourse wasn't normal. You were called on being disrepectful and using word choices to berate someone. Which you're still doing, rather than sticking to the numbers. Not getting defensive and trying to cast your critic in a bad light is a very valuable skill.
You can be right and not be all aggro about it. People can also be of the opinion that their different approach is still right for them, because it's good enough, even though it's objectively worse. Not everyone is trying to speedrun FBI. Some people aren't trying to run it at all. And they're not playing the game wrong, even if they're playing it less efficiently than they could if everything they did was mathematically perfect.
There's a really big range of "good enough" in between what's best and what's downright bad... like a summoned wererat, say.
In conclusion, wererats are bad, but players who use them aren't objectively bad, probably still just learning and low budget.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The guys I met and run with in NW (American, Polish and German) all express in a similar way to mine and 2 of them (especially the German) are a lot more straightforward than I am, he's brutally honest (as in saying everything as he thinks about it,like "omg you died you #$#%#$23!!") and we have yet to have a problem, that's because we understand that "normal" is something different to people from different backgrounds and it is natural to interact with like-minded people, just like @rjc9000 agreed with your statement (me being disrespectful) and the aforementioned indidviduals and other people as well would agree with mine. You're judging me from your perspective, what you deem "normal" and correct in your culture which seems to be English-related or something similar, culture in which compared to mine and German, from our perspective it is way too soft and kind of fake yet I don't ask people to write in x or y way.
Now you see what I mean? Just keep in mind there are people from all over the world here, you shouldn't call "disrecpectul" someone who communicates in a way you aren't used to
I think I expressed my point of view in a clear way, try to be more open-minded please guys, not everyone has your same background, as long as no offence is meant try not be so sensitive and be patient with people from other cultures
and there was nothing ironic in saying the me me me thing. people DO think of themselves especially when they're spending their OWN money on things. this isn't a church group. it's normal and OK to think of yourself. using the word selfishly implies that somehow that is a bad thing and we should think of YOU more. because if you don't get what YOU want then the other person is bad. Selfish is the person using the word. the only point of the word is manipulation. Yes thinking of the group is fine. but there are a lot of ways to do that and just because someone does something you don't personally agree with does not make them bad or "selfish" it makes them doing things differently than you. end of.
Personally I've bought enough things that were flavor of the day and nerfed the next month after sinking millions in that I just don't go there anymore. that candy isn't so tasty to me anymore lol
But well, at the end of the day it's up to people what to do with NW-related info and their ad as well, everyone can take those things as they will, like I told Becky, that often results in relating with like-minded people, I know I love to team up with people who have sellsword/rebel mercenar/con artist and dancing shield as summoned
No, I am not blaming anyone for any lack of dps, my SW is my alt and when I run it everything can happen, outdpsing, getting outdpsed, it doesn't matter and that's why she's HB (with power of nine hells) instead of soulbinder, I like helping teammates to hit harder
My "beef" (if by that you mean "gripe") with many guides up to date recommending fire archon as summoned and worse, stating is best in slot (it isn't by any means, not even close) is that stops people from having the great dps boost from uncapped companions and as those guides are followed in a pretty copy pasta way a lot of people ends up missing their dps potential and once they are picked up randomly (like zone/looking for group channel) even though the runs can go still pretty smooth, it doesn't feel right it could have been done better had the group member have an uncapped debuff companion.
I think this reply should help you understand my point of view on summoned companions
But, the thing is, you u can't force someone to understand something. As much as I'd like to transmit my understanding of GF to newbies, I can't. I can only reveal my thoughts through writing and speaking, and hoping that people understand.
Trying to browbeat people into understanding something is pointless.
(Why the hell is my philsophy skill coming now and not in class????)I am not forcing people to understand, I'm just stating that there are things that will be seen and taken differently depending on people's culture (example, how people here think of me as disrespectful and how people somewhere else don't at all) and I'm simply pointing that out so it can be kept in mind, that's all bro
I am not browbeating people into understanding anything, the issue is perspective, I'm too disrespectful from yours guys and from mine you are getting me wrong and too personally, like I said several times, peace guys
We try to have fun while we are playing. If people are getting angry, maybe games are less of an outlet to them and more of a chore that they feel must be accomplished in a certain way/speed.
I try not to run in high level PUGs for this reason. I do my best to help teams but I despise elitism.
It is, after all, a game and should be treated as such. Nothing wrong w min/maxing as long as you are not an A Hole in chat to others.....who dont.
That said, I still love my FA .....and my Con Artist
I'm done its like talking to a wall.
it's not a language barrier. it's a word choice problem you seem quiet fluent to me and quite in command of your meanings and phraseology. but you don't seem to understand what we're calling out here. it's neutral vs emotionally laden. you are making your arguments by putting value judgements into them. if someone agrees with you they are a good person. if they disagree they are a bad person. this is the problem. If you left that out of your argument no one would have a problem with it. things you like get flowery positive adverbs things you like get hateful overly negative ones.
when really at the end of the day the difference is NOT THAT HUGE. we're not talking hours here. we're probably not even talking half hours. we're talking min max which isn't that big a deal. the archon is a fine choice. the sellsword is a fine choice as is the conartist. (ect, ) but only if you have the right gear for them. there is NOTHING wrong with people choosing something other than what you dictate to be the best and it isn't going to cause a run to be worse than another run by any great margin. Personally I'd lose 6620 in attack stats alone not counting the stats on the companion gear itself if I were to switch to the sellsword. my dps would not take a small hit.. it would take a pretty huge one. by the time I managed to grind away the right gear it will be nerfed lol. I don't think people are blindly following guides as far as which pets are best. I think people are doing what works for them. the archon is a good solid dependable companion which isn't op and therefore not due for a nerf any time soon which makes it a solid choice. getting a pet to legendary is expensive and it does make a difference for a summoned companion because the stats will be higher on it. yea you don't absolutely have to have a legendary pet summoned but if you have one why would you want to use a different one. I'd want what ever I have summoned at legendary personally. Whereas with something like the sellsword you have to have it summoned for the benefits and as soon as it's nerfed it's probably going to be back to the stable for it. it has a terrible active bonus. Worse than the wererat. In the mean time people will have literally spend millions on it. getting it to purple or legendary. getting the right gear for it.. yeah it's the IT pet.. For now.. but a lot of us have been slapped enough by this game to realize that and not jump on the new pet of the month bandwagon. that's why you still see armies of air and fire archons. and that's why you're going to continue to see armies of them. Most people are just fine with "good enough"
My money goes into enchants. those are stable. and I still need a lot more 12's. I'd much rather have a lot of r12s than a pet that's going to be nerfed at some point because too many people are using it that I do not have proper gear for.
not every run has to be a worlds record speed run and the more of those done the FASTER your favorite pet will be Nerfed. heck we're about to have another pet of the month nerfed I think it already hit pc.
I'm a noob when it comes to neverwinter maths, but as a dps SW, it seemed to me from the very begining that the Con Artist was the best option for me.
For many reasons
- easier to get good rings than good necklace or belt.
- the 10% debuff stacks with otherscon artists in party
- under 3,5k, you may not have enought defense for endgame. I prefer do less damage and stay alive than do more damage but if you die a lot you dont dps while dead...
- he goes straight to the ennemis givinge time to cast my spells. The archon stay at range and i take the aggro when playing solo.
My con artist is still blue, i don't care if he's down a lot, while he's on the ground, i still benefit bondings.
So i use archons earth, air and fire and owlbear cub as passives and con artist as active.
BUT i prefer things staying like they are, many different companions used by players.
From my little experience, when too much players use the same build mechanic or same gear, it gets nerfed.
So let them use archons as active so they'll dont touch our debuff pets xD
I come across many warlocks with higher Ilvl than me that are pissed off by my output dps as i have less than 20k raw power and.. what a surprise, most of them use archons and stack power before arm pen xD
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I had similar talks with friends owning HV or HP set. Using it lowered your personal dps, compared to other players, but made the runs faster. I did got pmed by random players, asking, if I am stupid running a BIS CW with HV set. I told them, that he is BIS bc of the set. Some understood it, many did not.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set. My final statement was, in a good group with other dps HV is the smart choice and other gear is the ego noobs choice. In following arguments regarding sellsword, builds etc. my friends concluded on their own, 'ok, I get it, this is the smart choice and this is the ego noob choice', even if they did not follow my arguments and did use other companions, builds etc. I did never disrespect them or wanted to insult them. I like them and I accept their choice, no matter the fact, that I dont share it.
The only thing you can do is inform your fellow players and help them make an informed decision. If it is the same decision I would have made is not relevant.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
BTT:
Im glad to loose some personel dps as a GWF and the group dps is higher and makes dungeons faster/bosses easier. Thats why i use sellsword instead of archon
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their summoned one