The summoned fire archon bandwagon vs proper companions

jaime4312 · May 2017

So well into 2017 there are still guides regarding the fire archon as best in slot for summoned and therefore lots of players using that companion, reason for which it is not rare to see groups with 3+ archons which cause runs to take longer.

Edit for any new fellow posters who may feel lazy about reading the whole thing so this can save you some time:

Thank you very much @thefabricant @rjc9000 @dupeks @beckylunatic for your invaluable feedback that proves in a complex, mathematical (objective= nothing to argue about, sorry fire archon fans) and ACT-like way the statements I've made on this thread which of course were based on testing done by you and that we the community have had the privilege to access to one way or another.

Mr. Sharpedge, special thanks to you for showing us why an uncapped debuff companion like the sellsword will offer the summoner a greater dps boost than any % dmg companion which of course includes the hilariously overrated fire archon.

Guys the math and nw genius Sharp proved it, if a group has 4 supports with uncapped debuff companions and 1 dps and say he/she wants a summoned companion that can boost personal dps as much as possible, the answer is... another uncapped debuff companion as shown by sharp's calculations, no % dmg pet can match the aforementioned pets even in worst case excenario xD

Trying to prove Sharp wrong at formulas and game understanding is like trying to beat Cristiano Ronaldo/Lionel Messi at football and/or Novak Djokovic at tenis, sure you can try but it's 99.99% likely you will fail miserably at it and we all here will have a good laugh as we read your responses

For dps:

Sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist:

They put an uncapped debuff on enemies, as pve ones have no defense you get a increase in effectiveness of 10% per each aforementioned companion and it stacks up to five times, so, capped resistance ignored being 100% effectiveness, those companions can push it to 150% which is pretty significant. Now if one of the support guys has a dancing shield (20% increase in effectiveness, doesn't stack with other dancing shields) instead, you can get to 160%. You can argue that it may not happen when killing trash but bosses are a different story and those are the most important fights by far.

Soooo 150%/160% effectiveness vs... you deal 7% more damage against targets at 49.99% health or less...

Fun fact, @thefabricant who's arguably the smartest member of this community and the one who has unmatched knowledge and understanding of this game personally recommends one of the aforementioned companions (sellsword), that in itself shows you what's the way to go with summoned companions

Edit: testing done by @rjc9000 using ACT shows Harper bard can't compare to 20%/10% uncapped debuff companions due to the horribad debuff uptime which is why I'm editing this post to keep it as objective as possible.

The fire archon proccing the bondings an instant faster than the aforementioned companions does not make up for a 50%/60% effectiveness loss not only for you but your teammates too.

Fastest fbi run so far by The Legendary Outlaws (xb1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30al6DbX7dA

Fastest fbi run on pc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9A4GaLjeYk

Feel free to check the videos, there are no fire archons to be seen and with good reason, they have no party utility, they can't compare to sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist.

Guys, it is worth mentioning console players do not have loyal avenger gear (it gives way more stats than any other type) yet they (The Legendary Outlaws) could do the fastest run, that shows the importance of not only proper party composition but having the right summoned companions.

The fire archon maddness needs to stop, it is an extremely overrated companion that can't compare to uncapped debuff companions as it slows the team down the more group members have it, there's a good reason the teams shown in those videos stacked the sellsword/con artist, it is much better to do so if you want maximum dps.

Unknown · May 2017

This content has been removed.

mebengalsfan · May 2017

Another good companion is Greenscale Bowmen as he provides a 5% increase to damage from all sources.

Also, I run with the jaggered blade on my dc and when I built up my CW I went Fire Archon as it goes with my RP theme of being a MoF CW that uses the demon sled.

My GF uses Moonbow that provides a decrease in crit chance from end emies and an increase in crit for my team.

Honestly, I would love to have have the Harper bard for my DC and GF.

There are more buffing and debuffing companions than the ones you listed. The ones you listed are the most used, but maybe not the BiS for all builds.

mightyeriksson · May 2017

defiantone99 said:
Until they rework aka nerf the debuff pets.

^ This is the reason I don't go with the "debuffers" on all my characters, in the (near?) future, they will no doubt change it, so that those de-buffs don't stack...

The reason Fire Archons are popular is simply because they are pretty much always one of the companions every dps should use, and there is pretty much no chance they will be rendered less effective.

armadeonx · May 2017

My pally runs the harper bard which also debuffs enemies (uncapped) and buff team power and crit - as well as giving me a significant HP boost.

jaime4312 · May 2017

defiantone99 said:
Until they rework aka nerf the debuff pets.

@defiantone99 yes but intil that happens they're the best, you could argue the same about bonding stones and other items, they will get nerfed someday but that doesn't mean we should refrain from using them now that they're best in slot and by far (both aforementioned companions and bondings).

@mebengalsfan#9264 the companions I mentioned provide the highest increase in effectivenss so they objectively are better than the rest, I guess you could argue that other companions could fit better some weird niche builds but for endgame runs the one I listed reign supreme yet.

@mightyeriksson but then by your logic we all should run Eldritch runestones instead of bondings in our companions because there is no chance they will be rendered less effective

. Fire archon is the companion dps shouldn't be running because it objectively offers far less than uncapped debuff ones.

jaime4312 · May 2017

armadeonx said:
My pally runs the harper bard which also debuffs enemies (uncapped) and buff team power and crit - as well as giving me a significant HP boost.

@armadeonx

Edit: testing done by @rjc9000 (using ATC) proves Harper bard is significantly inferior to 20%/10% uncapped debuff companions due to horribad uptime of its debuff. It may be good for you do to hp increase but it isn't the way to go for boosting your teammates dps.

mcgwarface · May 2017

Jaime, great info. Just trying to get my Con Artist to legendary before I perma switch him out w my Leg Fire on solo mode. For groups though I do throw Con Artist in as summoned.

mightyeriksson · May 2017

You are kinda missing my point, the "bandwagon" is actually using the Con artist/Rebel merc and so on, and unless you have plenty of AD to spare, getting one of them to Legendary for 2-3 months of use might be an expensive lesson in the cycle of nerfs.

Before the bonding re-work, we were all using the Mercenary, after that Archons, and currently the debuffers.

I use the Rebel Mercenary, Sellsword and Con Artist, and Harpers on my DC/OP but I am fullly aware that they will be (almost) useless in the near future, which is why I wouldn't recommend them unless you won't miss the AD.

I'm fairly sure I've seen a dev commenting on that de-buffs are up for a revision, and it will no doubt kill those stacks.

I think the Harper will still remain a BiS option for some supports, but the others will be obsolete in the near future...

rjc9000 · May 2017

mebengalsfan#9264 said:
Another good companion is Greenscale Bowmen as he provides a 5% increase to damage from all sources.

Also, I run with the jaggered blade on my dc and when I built up my CW I went Fire Archon as it goes with my RP theme of being a MoF CW that uses the demon sled.

My GF uses Moonbow that provides a decrease in crit chance from end emies and an increase in crit for my team.

Honestly, I would love to have have the Harper bard for my DC and GF.

There are more buffing and debuffing companions than the ones you listed. The ones you listed are the most used, but maybe not the BiS for all builds.

Greenscale is mitigated by DR and on level 73 mobs, putting it close to barely a 1-2% debuff.
Jagged Dancing Blade debuff only works for the companion.
Before anyone asks, Ambush Drake's debuff is good, but has horrible uptime on enemies, which makes it inconsistent.
Repetant Dragon Cultist is rare and its debuff is only 3/4ths as effective on level 73 enemies.

Also: Harper Bard debuff only works on enemies at low health, is only 8%, and only gives a pittiance of Power (~800 Power)

Why are people always singing the praises of the Harper Bard? It's not that great.

dupeks · May 2017

It's really hard to outperform one of the debuffing companions.

Even taking into account that the debuff is additive to effectiveness, meaning it comes with diminishing returns with respect to damage output, a 10% uncapped debuff adds pretty impressively to personal (and party) dps.

Edit: See later in the thread. I was wrong in my math here. debuffing companions work even better than what my math shows below.

Let's take a look at the "worst case" where we've already capped effectiveness and are using a variety of companions or WEs to stack above cap. In all cases where our "base" effectiveness is lower, an additional debuff would translate into a larger increase in dps.

Let's say we have 250% effectiveness in party (e.g. debuff cap + dancing shield + 3 sellswords). What's the incremental impact to damage of adding another 10% debuff?

((new damage) - (old damage))/(old damage) = % increase in DPS

Let's take a base hit of 1,000 damage. At 250% effectiveness we would hit for 2,500 damage. If we added 10% debuff we would get to 260% effectiveness and a hit for 2,600 damage.

(2,600 - 2,500) / 2,500 = 4% damage increase

And that's pretty close to the worst possible scenario.

If you're only capping effectiveness in party (200% -> 210% effectiveness), it's a little better:

(2,100 - 2,000) / 2,000 = 5% damage increase

And that's party-wide. Which means compared to a siege master companion (+4% dps on non-SH maps), a debuff companion is better unless you manage to overcap debuff by a wide margin for large sections of the fight.

You can debate how that compares with the fire archon's 7% at less than half health, but it's pretty clear that the archon isn't outperforming dramatically when compared with a debuff pet.

beckylunatic · May 2017

mightyeriksson said:
You are kinda missing my point, the "bandwagon" is actually using the Con artist/Rebel merc and so on, and unless you have plenty of AD to spare, getting one of them to Legendary for 2-3 months of use might be an expensive lesson in the cycle of nerfs.

I don't see why anyone really feels the need to take their debuff companion beyond blue, maybe purple to eke out a tiny bit more active bonus. Your summon does not have to be your legendary companion, particularly with summoned companions so often being FotM. You give up a certain amount of stats by doing it this way, but can be at least somewhat assured that if your legendary companion is something you're unlikely to drop from the lineup any time soon, you get some benefit and can rotate your summon if/when you need to. Also beneficial if you sometimes rotate the summoned companion anyway.

Sure, if you've got resources to throw away on upgrading companions willy-nilly, go for the legendary Con Artist or whatever, but... blue's good enough.

jaime4312 · May 2017

mightyeriksson said:
You are kinda missing my point, the "bandwagon" is actually using the Con artist/Rebel merc and so on, and unless you have plenty of AD to spare, getting one of them to Legendary for 2-3 months of use might be an expensive lesson in the cycle of nerfs.

Before the bonding re-work, we were all using the Mercenary, after that Archons, and currently the debuffers.

I use the Rebel Mercenary, Sellsword and Con Artist, and Harpers on my DC/OP but I am fullly aware that they will be (almost) useless in the near future, which is why I wouldn't recommend them unless you won't miss the AD.

I'm fairly sure I've seen a dev commenting on that de-buffs are up for a revision, and it will no doubt kill those stacks.

I think the Harper will still remain a BiS option for some supports, but the others will be obsolete in the near future...

@mightyeriksson here's still an insane amount of fire archons, at least on console and you avoided commenting on the bondings, should we all switch to fire archons and eldritch runestones to follow your logic? Because you know, they (uncapped debuff companions and bonding stones) may/will get nerfed/reworked at some point so you're suggesting to using inferior stuff for the time being in order to be "safe".

@beckylunatic indeed, you do need to consider the uptime of the fire archon's damage buff and the fact that after 50% hp enemies die quite faster because of feats/sets/build so it doesn't really do much and following the calculations you did it would actually underperfom compared to debuff companions in worst case scenario, at least given the conditions shown in your example.

sadus671 · May 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:

defiantone99 said:
Until they rework aka nerf the debuff pets.
@defiantone99 yes but intil that happens they're the best, you could argue the same about bonding stones and other items, they will get nerfed someday but that doesn't mean we should refrain from using them now that they're best in slot and by far (both aforementioned companions and bondings).

Hey @jaime4312#3760

If I read that correctly you are on Xbox?

So I know you guys never got Loyal Avenger Companion gear... so another reason people would be reluctant to switch... the expense of acquiring new Loyal Avenger gear if they don't already have it for the debuff companions. (Since the addition stat value on Loyal Avenger / Striker (belt) is worth more than any other companion gear.

Loyal Avenger = 1739 stats / Add *Enchantments (920 x 2) = 3579 total points
Adorable / Barbarian = 869 stats / Add *Enchantments (920 x 2) = 2709 total points

*Assuming you are using Black Ice for highest total stats total/Brutals would be 840

Maybe most should go with Con Artist... since Legendary Rings are still good to keep in the bank even if the companions do get nerfed in the future... (since we are talking BIS and non-avenger gear)

Everyone is certain the WILL GET NERFED... as its obvious companions using the same debuff (the power is even the same name) are not suppose to stack. So why invest potentially 20-30 million AD on the gear for a companion that will inevitably get nerfed.

Maybe if you are a support class or run a support loadout.... since you'll still want someone in the group to run the debuff. (post nerf)

urabask · May 2017

mightyeriksson said:
You are kinda missing my point, the "bandwagon" is actually using the Con artist/Rebel merc and so on, and unless you have plenty of AD to spare, getting one of them to Legendary for 2-3 months of use might be an expensive lesson in the cycle of nerfs.

Before the bonding re-work, we were all using the Mercenary, after that Archons, and currently the debuffers.

I use the Rebel Mercenary, Sellsword and Con Artist, and Harpers on my DC/OP but I am fullly aware that they will be (almost) useless in the near future, which is why I wouldn't recommend them unless you won't miss the AD.

I'm fairly sure I've seen a dev commenting on that de-buffs are up for a revision, and it will no doubt kill those stacks.

I think the Harper will still remain a BiS option for some supports, but the others will be obsolete in the near future...

You don't need to take them to legendary though. Just upgrade it to blue and it's still better.

jaime4312 · May 2017

mcgwarface said:
Jaime, great info. Just trying to get my Con Artist to legendary before I perma switch him out w my Leg Fire on solo mode. For groups though I do throw Con Artist in as summoned.

@mcgwarface well done good sir! It doesn't really matter what companion you have as summoned when you are doing your daylies but uncapped debuff companions are the way to go for group content for the time being.

Besides, if you pug a lot and you play a squishy class (like my sw alt), if say you are pugging CN and your team is bad, the con artist can help you kill Orcus as he will ignore you xD With the fire archon is another story, Orcus will ignore it and 1 shot you lol.

beckylunatic · May 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:
indeed, you do need to consider the uptime of the fire archon's damage buff and the fact that after 50% hp enemies die quite faster because of feats/sets/build so it doesn't really do much and following the calculations you did it would actually underperfom compared to debuff companions in worst case scenario, at least given the conditions shown in your example.

That was the guy who likes pickles, not me (though I also like pickles). At any rate, he was running some numbers to show how a debuff companion with a cruddy active bonus isn't giving up much compared to a non-debuffing companion with a better active bonus. Not disputing you.

jaime4312 · May 2017

@rjc9000 woah the uncapped debuf of the Harper only works with enemies at low health? Looking forward to see your answer, if it's a yes then it doesn't have place in group content and as such I will need to edit my original post to take it out, at least the sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist and dancing shield part is right lol.

mightyeriksson · May 2017

rjc9000 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:
Another good companion is Greenscale Bowmen as he provides a 5% increase to damage from all sources.

Also, I run with the jaggered blade on my dc and when I built up my CW I went Fire Archon as it goes with my RP theme of being a MoF CW that uses the demon sled.

My GF uses Moonbow that provides a decrease in crit chance from end emies and an increase in crit for my team.

Honestly, I would love to have have the Harper bard for my DC and GF.

There are more buffing and debuffing companions than the ones you listed. The ones you listed are the most used, but maybe not the BiS for all builds.
Greenscale is mitigated by DR and on level 73 mobs, putting it close to barely a 1-2% debuff.
Jagged Dancing Blade debuff only works for the companion.
Before anyone asks, Ambush Drake's debuff is good, but has horrible uptime on enemies, which makes it inconsistent.
Repetant Dragon Cultist is rare and its debuff is only 3/4ths as effective on level 73 enemies.

Also: Harper Bard debuff only works on enemies at low health, is only 8%, and only gives a pittiance of Power (~800 Power)

Why are people always singing the praises of the Harper Bard? It's not that great.

I like the Harper mainly due to the combo of de-buff, bonus power+crit/def+deflect and bonus HP.

markeen · May 2017

Most players I've seen running fire archon also have other archons as active which would make (In my opinion) the archons a far better choice as active companions. However, I also use the sellsword since day one of playing and is always my summoned on my CW.

sadus671 · May 2017

markeen#2032 said:
Most players I've seen running fire archon also have other archons as active which would make (In my opinion) the archons a far better choice as active companions. However, I also use the sellsword since day one of playing and is always my summoned on my CW.

Hey @markeen#2032

The additional damage from multiple Archons is a LIE

It doesn't work... regardless of what the tooltip says...

beckylunatic · May 2017

markeen#2032 said:
Most players I've seen running fire archon also have other archons as active which would make (In my opinion) the archons a far better choice as active companions.

Not unless the multi-archon interaction gets fixed so it actually works.

(Not saying there's anything wrong with their independent damage buffs. They're still independently strong actives. But archon vs. not-an-archon isn't currently a valid consideration.)

dupeks · May 2017

beckylunatic said:

jaime4312#3760 said:
indeed, you do need to consider the uptime of the fire archon's damage buff and the fact that after 50% hp enemies die quite faster because of feats/sets/build so it doesn't really do much and following the calculations you did it would actually underperfom compared to debuff companions in worst case scenario, at least given the conditions shown in your example.
That was the guy who likes pickles, not me (though I also like pickles). At any rate, he was running some numbers to show how a debuff companion with a cruddy active bonus isn't giving up much compared to a non-debuffing companion with a better active bonus. Not disputing you.

In-game I usually go by Pickles

And yeah, my math was trying to show that debuffing companions provide a decent benefit even in the worst of cases, despite bleh active bonuses. The increase to damage output from the debuff offsets the loss of a better active bonus.

So what Becky said

rjc9000 · May 2017

The tooltip says it only works on enemies at half health, but I'll give it a shot on my GF on preview, just incase the tooltip is wrong.

thefiresidecat · May 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:
So well into 2017 there are still guides regarding the fire archon as best in slot for summoned and therefore lots of players using that companion, reason for which it is not rare to see groups with 3+ archons which cause runs to take longer.

For dps:

Sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist:

They put an uncapped debuff on enemies, as pve ones have no defense you get a increase in effectiveness of 10% per each aforementioned companion and it stacks up to five times, so, capped resistance ignored being 100% effectiveness, those companions can push it to 150% which is pretty significant. Now if one of the support guys has a dancing shield (20% increase in effectiveness, doesn't stack with other dancing shields) instead, you can get to 160%. You can argue that it may not happen when killing trash but bosses are a different story and those are the most important fights by far.

Soooo 150%/160% effectiveness vs... you deal 7% more damage against targets at 49.99% health or less...

Edit: thanks @armadeonx for reminding me of the Harper, it is a viable alternative to the 10% uncapped debuff for a support class. The group should always have 1 dancing shield though, so shield + x4 10% uncapped debuff or shield + 1 harper and x3 10% uncapped debuff is the way to go for maximum effectiveness from companions. I did not bother mentioning the ambush drake as the uptime of its debuff makes it inferior + it is ridiculously expensive.

The fire archon proccing the bondings an instant faster than the aforementioned companions does not make up for a 50%/60% effectiveness loss not only for you but your teammates too.

Fastest fbi run so far by The Legendary Outlaws (xb1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30al6DbX7dA

Fastest fbi run on pc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9A4GaLjeYk

Feel free to check the videos, there are no fire archons to be seen and with good reason, they have no party utility, they can't compare to sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist.

Guys, it is worth mentioning console players do not have loyal avenger gear (it gives way more stats than any other type) yet they (The Legendary Outlaws) could do the fastest run, that shows the importance of not only proper party composition but having the right summoned companions.

The fire archon maddness needs to stop, it is an extremely overrated companion that can't compare to uncapped debuff companions as it slows the team down the more group members have it, there's a good reason the teams shown in those videos stacked the sellsword/con artist, it is much better to do so if you want maximum dps.

I don't think the speedruns are because of their choice in companions. that video you posted.. one hr a gf a pally and two dcs.. I can guarantee you their combined buffs alone would have made it look like that. I'm sure their pets helped but if they were all running fire archons.. it STILL would have been a speedrun. lol. like has been said. dps use the archons because they will always remain a constant. they have three offense slots and gear drops for them. I actually just made my fire archon legendary. (I already had a air archon legendary) because I got x3 companion gear for him. that makes him best in slot for me. yea buff debuff is nice but there is plenty of it in the room. with the over geared people we have nothing is taking THAT (if at all) much longer because of choice of companions. Someone having no bondings. THAT will make a run go slower but imo. as long as you have r12 bondings and good gear it's all good. BIS in this game is soo soo very fleeting. odds are if you hang on long enough what you're doing will come back into fashion.

rjc9000 · May 2017

Meh, I got a bit lazy on the test. I simply took my DPS setup, did a respec on preview and unequipped/didn't use anything which could have affected the test (no using VM, no using mark, etc.)

The bard in question is a level30 Bard, which explains why the debuff was only 6.7-6.8% (the debuff scales with level). I had to go through a lot a LOT of cleave hits that before the bard did his thing, and it only worked when I whittled the enemy down to half or under health. Here is the ACT log if you want to see a fraction of the hits I went through.

I will also defer to the judgement of @bitt3rnightmar3 and @checkmatein3, since both know more about the Bard than I do.

bitt3rnightmar3 · May 2017

rjc9000 said:

I will also defer to the judgement of @bitt3rnightmar3 and @checkmatein3, since both know more about the Bard than I do.

My computer is still having more fatalities than a Mortal Kombat tournament so until my stupid error crashing is over I can't really test much of anything. Rick buffs power and crit of any party member over 50% health as well as debuffing enemies below 50% health which I believe is 8% at max level. Supposedly, he also buffs defense and deflect of allies below 50% health but I try not to give people a chance to get that low.

I like the Sellsword debuff too but Rick Astley, my bard, doesn't lose bonding when I'm out of combat. He keeps buffing me and my party members between mobs so I don't ever really lose bondings which is nice. It's one of the few times I'm actually happy that Light of Divinity keeps me in combat sometimes

I feel like I don't have bondings as quickly at the start of combat with the sellsword and often suffer the lack of mob availability because DPS murder everything and leave me with nothing LOL.

If you have a question about the bard in particular I'd be happy to let Rick sing ya a song sometime once these client crashes get fixed.

asterotg · May 2017

If I joined a MSVA run, the first thing I looked for were the companions. With 5-7 aarchons present I did not expect much. 5-7 sellswords, con-artists etc., I expected a fast run. Most of the times I was right.

jaime4312 · May 2017

@beckylunatic @dupeks apologies for confusing you lol. Still, my point does stand, with the uptime of the fire archon damage bonus being factored (less than 50%) plus things dying significantly faster when enemies' health drops to 50% or less, it is mathematically therefore objectively inferior to the uncapped debuff companions.

@rjc9000 tyvm for your testing and for proving us with ACT (so nothing to argue there) and your experience how the Harper is horribly overrated and noticeable inferior to the rest of uncapped debuff companions (except maybe ambush drake with its debuff having terribad uptime and being a hilarious overpriced companion as well). I'm going to edit my original post and my response to someone because of what you proved.

@thefiresidecat no it is not, best in slot is not what you like aesthetically or what you have preferences (or items available for, like your archon) for, best in slot is what mathematically therefore factually gives you the greater dps boos and that leaves that overrated fire archon out of the way, not only it gives less of a dps bonus, it only gives it to you so it objectively slows the team down (compared to running an uncapped debuff companion) and in my opinion it is something very selfish to do.

You can only argue math with math and nothing else as it dictactes the way things work in this game therefore uncapped debuff companions > everything else whether you like/agree or not, it is how it is with the current state of the game.

Sure you can do a good fbi run with other companions and team compsition + rank 12 bondings are extremely important but if you want absolute best team perfomance uncapped debuff companions have no comparable alternative, they give that extra increase in effectiveness no other companion combo can offer. Again, that's the reason no fire archon is seen on those videos.

Summoned uncappped debuff companions: okay let's make everyone more powerful to have bettter runs in any dungeons.

Fire archon: yeee this companion procs bondings an instant faster, screw my teammates' and my own effectiveness.

@sadus671 yes, I am on console and loyal avenger has never existed there, unless you're lucky with gear for sellsword/rebel mercenary (unlikely unless you don't mind running IG hundreds or thousands of times) con artist is the way to go. With loyal avenger stuff not exisiting on consoles it means nobody will spend your mentioned 27 mio ad lol.

I pointed this out to a(stubborn)nother poster, he ignored me as he didn't really have anything to say because his argument was so hilariously flawed, if we go by your logic should we refrain from using bonding stones too then as they may/will get nerfed/chagned someday?

This game is always changing and you should work what works the best at the moment if you can afford it, it has always been like that and you know it, be it an item, power, combo, etc, there's always something superior and there will always be, we have to adapt to that in order to help our team in a meaningful way.

Besides:

Con artist: get x3 good rings for him and you're ready to go, you help your teammates, too, congrats you aren't selfish.

Fire archon (from console perspective): spend a fortune on a hilariously overpriced talisman of adorable bites (or whatever it's called), which usually is 5+ million ad or run IG until you become a grandpa/grandma. Just with the taliman you spend ap (at the very least) comparable of getting almost 3 companions from lowest to highest quality, you get a lower dps boost for yourself and you bring nothing to the table for your team with it. It is factually inferior. Having a summoned fire archon kinda screams "I'm incredibly selfish so can't consider increasing my teamamtes' dps, speacially that of fellow damage dealers grrrrrrrrrrh! Mah paingiver first, screw everything else!"

Don't forget that uncapped debuff companions are always in range of AA, WoL and BoB, you can't say the same about that already inferior fire archon.

markeen · May 2017

@sadus671
Even though the tooltips read as

Fire Archon- Increases your damage against targets with less than 50% Hit Points by +4/5/7%" for Fire Archon.

Combined with

Air Archons- Increases your damage against targets not at full health by +2.0/3.0/5.0%. Each additional active Archon increases this bonus by .5%

Earth Archon- Increases your damage against targets by +3/4/6% when you are at full health. Each additional active Archon increases this by .5%

I'm not sure if the damage is increased but rather the defense/resistance is reduced. Which would give the illusion of an increase in damage. I only have a fire archon so I can not test a combination but in theory this seems most logical.

rjc9000 · May 2017

People will see the Fire Archon as the best in slot because (x)/(y) said so, but that's because most of them aren't trying to figure stuff out. Most of them are in for personal DPS and technically speaking, the Fire Archon "is" the best for personal DPS ~~(ed: Dread Warrior summoned would like to challenge the Fire Archon on that claim)~~, since you don't have to give up a +damage companion for the archon.

If you notice in the Legendary Outlaws' clip, the GF and OP are trying to contribute their own DPS alongside the HR, because they've already buffed their main DPS and can speed up the run by adding in their own DPS (I know I, Bethel, Grace, Draco, Prozo, or any other good Conq GF/high geared Tankadin will try to do this in a speedrun, even if we aren't the top DPS in the party). The GF and OP do contribute "some" significant DPS output by the end, so the HR needs to consider whether or not he should improve his own personal DPS, or improve the DPS of himself (albeit at a lower %), but also improve the DPS of the GF and OP.

The reason that stacking multiple sword trio comps + Dancing Shield works for faster runs is because people are willing to slightly lower their own personal DPS in favor of enhancing the DPS of other players, which in turn, speeds up the run because you're improving the DPS of multiple players instead of just of just 1 (in some instances I've done, the GF and OP combined can effectively deal the same amount of damage as the main DPSer, which effectively means you would have "2" main DPSers in a team, albeit split between 3 players).

dupeks said:

Let's say we have 250% effectiveness in party (e.g. debuff cap + dancing shield + 3 sellswords). What's the incremental impact to damage of adding another 10% debuff?

((new damage) - (old damage))/(old damage) = % increase in DPS

Let's take a base hit of 1,000 damage. At 250% effectiveness we would hit for 2,500 damage. If we added 10% debuff we would get to 260% effectiveness and a hit for 2,600 damage.

(2,600 - 2,500) / 2,500 = 4% damage increase

@dupeks, I believe debuffs work in that (Sum of Capped Debuffs) * (Capped Debuffs) = Effectiveness

If damage is assumed to be 1000, then:

1000* [(2.0) * (1 + 0.1 + 0.1 +0.1 +0.2)]
1000 * [2*(1.5)]
1000 * (3)
3000

The idea still stands that the DPS Increase is for your whole team not just 1 player.

The summoned fire archon bandwagon vs proper companions

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