Pally Loadout Impact to Groups

mebengalsfan · May 2017

Now we all know that Pally's are the lone class that can be a tank or healer. Other classes do not have this option. With loadouts a Pally could select healer to get into the instance faster than swap to a tank in the instance. This is a concern as it can result in imbalanced groups.

Is there anything in play to ensure this does not happen, to make sure that Pally play the role that they were initially given.

What do other think about this? No other class ATM can break or ruin runs for random groups.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

@mebengalsfan, I'm a bit on the slow side and trying to see what issue might be. As a Pally Healer who plans to stay with my original loadout of the same, but also plans on a Tank loadout, I would think that whatever the team would need would dictate which loadout I use. If the party needs a healer, I'm there. If they need a tank, I'll swap but if you're concerned they may take up a slot a potential PUGing AC DC might take (Sounds like thats the concern), I suspect you either need to vote kick and wait for that DC or go with a pre-made. I don't see why there needs to be a new mechanic when there are already existing tools one can use the group is optimal for the run. That's my two cents.

rayrdan · May 2017

Thanks god pally can go either tank or healer. We have to wait even half a hour for those classes in lfg

beckylunatic · May 2017

I cannot see paladin players using loadouts to troll groups being some kind of gamebreaking issue. If a run is going to fail because they decided to double up roles by switching after entering an instance, then they have just wasted their own time as well as everyone else's, so... way to go genius? Your plan worked so well. Enjoy your nonexistent loot.

Seriously, why would anyone do this? Or do it more than once after discovering what a clever hamsterhead it actually made them in practice.

ravenskya · May 2017

I plan on keeping my healadin as a healadin with a tank spec just for the fun of it. I'd probably only put her into tank mode if I found myself in a pug where I realized that there was no way the tank was going to hold up.

Or since my guild is really healer heavy I might pop over to tank to run dungeons with them. The other thought would be to stay healadin through CN until you get to Orcus and go no tank until we get there, then pop into tank mode just for the boss fight. Who knows... I certainly can't imagine putting myself as a healer just to get into a group and then pop over to tank for no reason - it's not like a different character gets the loot.

I do sense that a lot of mid grade tankadins might create a subpar healadin just to get into dungeons more quickly - that will lead to an increase in dislike for the healadin in general if people assume all healadins are as bad as I expect many of those will be.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

ravenskya said:

I do sense that a lot of mid grade tankadins might create a subpar healadin just to get into dungeons more quickly - that will lead to an increase in dislike for the healadin in general if people assume all healadins are as bad as I expect many of those will be.

That's always a possibility, but I get the feeling it will be more to do with folks that played only one paragon tree going through the growing pains of learning the other, rather than intentional deception just to get into a group. In case of the latter, if they double up like that, the run may fail and the rest of the group should boot them.

ravenskya · May 2017

I sense a lot of the "new" healadins will be wearing aura of life and standing back holding down R2 thinking they are adding to the team.

rjc9000 · May 2017

ravenskya said:
I sense a lot of the "new" healadins will be wearing aura of life and standing back holding down R2 thinking they are adding to the team.

Well, you know what they say.

~~All toasters toast toast~~ When you make something idiot proof, nature builds a better idiot.

mebengalsfan · May 2017

Other games that have loadouts this occurs more often than many players realize. In other games where you can play more than one role and have an off role loadout, players abuse the system to get into groups and ruins runs for others. My concern is not having a healer or tank in pug groups.

mcgwarface · May 2017

Well the team could always vote kick if the team asks for a healer then he/she changes to something else trying to be sneaky for some weird reason. This will not be common. Most normal people will change into the loadout based on situation.

rubytrue · May 2017

Oh noes! That tank is really a healer.... And that dirty rotten healer is actually a tank! This will result in Neverwinter pandemonium, I tell you. Cats and dogs marrying and all that stuff.

armadeonx · May 2017

The thing is, there's not a lot of gear difference between a protection and devotion paladin and most builds both use the same feat paths, they even run the same auras (class features) most of the time.

Sure one would have to learn the rotation of the other path but once that's done they should be able to function effectively in either role.

Could you be more specific as to how you believe they wouldn't be able to cross-function? Also, do you run a paladin and if so what's the path and item level.

armadeonx · May 2017

A quick look actually shows you main a DC? I think I now start to see where you're coming from @mebengalsfan#9264 ...

Are you a little concerned that an influx of players who are able to take your spot in a group could negatively impact on your game play...?

oldbaldyone · May 2017

This is called "way overthinking things". Why on earth would someone switch roles just to queue and get a group faster, when that group is likely going to fail because of it? Oo, I'll queue and take the healer role, then I'll refuse to heal.

Also, I highly, highly doubt that the queue system looks at spec and places people based on it. It looks at class: GF/OP Tank, DC/OP Healer, all else DPS - but I could be wrong here.

As always, the system for creating your own groups works fairly well...well sort of well....ok its buggy sometimes, but usually works.

bitt3rnightmar3 · May 2017

Most dungeons don't really need much healing.. those that do need healing people are hesitant to pug.

armadeonx · May 2017

I believe he's specifically concerned about prot pallies switching to healadin as no other class can change classification - As he mains a DC I believe this is more about 'turf' than game impact.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

I strongly suspect he'll have much to worry about nothing as I get the feeling that Prot pallies will queue and play the dungeon as a tank because thats what they're comfortable with, while Devos will do the same. Like I said before, if the team is failing because someone wants to do something that doesn't help the team - Vote kick, Pre-made, guild runs all exist and are alternatives.

armadeonx · May 2017

In my experience it'll be of most use when the DC quits and a tank takes their place (it's happened to me a few times). If one of the tanks is a pally they can switch to healer instead.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

armadeonx said:
In my experience it'll be of most use when the DC quits and a tank takes their place (it's happened to me a few times). If one of the tanks is a pally they can switch to healer instead.

Been there, done that as armadeonx! :P Hopefully, with the new loadouts if you run into that situation and get another DC, in pugs with either two pallies or a GF and a Pally. The pally can switch to heals and the DC can go full DPS or Buff/debuffs. I really think this feature will give us all more options and versatility - leading to more successes than failures within Pugs.

-Shia-

silverkelt · May 2017

you have it opposite, I find queues popping much quicker with tanks.. its almost insta with my tank alts.. its much slower with my dc .. and nearly NEVER pops for dps.

if your asking for requests, then sure dc might come out ahead.

no one is usually sitting around asking for a healadin.

This is a pretty moot factor with todays meta..

I see more people asking for one DO and one AA DC.. then anything else lately.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

And I suspect you would be right. Which is why I pug. The run gets completed and I do my damnest to ensure that folks are at full health to do their jobs.

majorcharvenak · May 2017

The above applies to the non-endgame master level dungeons. FBI, SPC (M) and SVA are their own animals. Bottom line: If you're pugging Fangbreaker or Spellplague Caverns you're taking a risk so you should probably premade your group or run with guildies. If folks are queing for endgame dungeons and then switching to something the team doesn't need then friggin boot them. How hard is all this? Now that I think about it, I'm wondering if this whole thread isn't just trollbait. I REALLY don't think this is an issue.

beckylunatic · May 2017

oldbaldyone said:
Also, I highly, highly doubt that the queue system looks at spec and places people based on it. It looks at class: GF/OP Tank, DC/OP Healer, all else DPS - but I could be wrong here.

It looks at paragon rather than class when deciding how to queue a paladin, but that's as far as it goes.

I don't know about sabotaging runs in other games but I still have trouble imagining it happening here. Maybe I'm just silly for imagining that people have lives and for the most part want to pack as many successful runs into their playtime as they can, if that's what they do.

rubytrue · May 2017

As a DevOP I am usually tops in immovable object due to the aggro I draw...why would I want to give up my heals and DPS when I am more or less the tank anyway?

veywiil · May 2017

I did some 'testing' around this and found this beneficial to PUG's if used properly, Burandins can fill the tank role, but normally fill the healer role. How do we make runs faster with this knowledge?

Queue as a protection paladin, and as soon as you get in the instance swap to devotion. Normally you get a cleric who debuffs very well in the healer slot you would have filled. The party doesn't lose anything for survivability in most dungeons. This can be used to your advantage if you are a paladin.

namelesshero347 · May 2017

The CN queue time seem to have increased significantly for my DC, and decreased for my GF. I think lots of pallys are going into CN queue as devotion now since even fairly well geared pallys can have trouble tanking orcus.

armadeonx · May 2017

Yeah since the Binding Oath nerf it is harder to do it. My advice is to run TW/Bane/Absolution if you're having problems and make sure you cast Absolution on everyone before going in.

To make sure you cast it on yourself (and not others) during the fight, adjust your camera angle to a steep vertical so you are looking down or up. With decent recovery and well spaced Divine Call you should keep it up permanently.

Swap Absolution for CoP if you have the HP and DR to handle it.

wizardlvl80 · May 2017

I really don't see how this is a problem. You can still kick this dude, right? So how it's a loadout problem?

majorcharvenak · May 2017

It isn't.

fontanaelunae · May 2017

It puts me off to read (hidden) nerf threads with "concerns" like this! Hit all other classes except your own! So sad!
Sometimes I wonder whether we are playing together or against each other...

Paladins have got their share of nerfing i feel, and it's not the moment to reduce new game possibilities loadouts offer -- a gift for ALL of us -- and reduce them for just this one, already strongly reduced class.

Pally Loadout Impact to Groups

Comments