Well remember in future your gear score will be comprised of not only all boons you've acquired but also your mounts, insignia, mount powers & abilities, the quality of all Active Companions including their gear and enchantments. So even if you moved a few R12 around to other companions that will still be assessed in your gear score.
It also limits the over zealousness of the benefits to still being highly powerful boosts of 3x or more but when today if offers more than 5x many are still likely to oppose this. Even though it's potentially a benefit that their companion, they themselves benefit 285%, and possibly even their entire party gain's 285% of the benefit.
Bonding are the only enchant that gives +840 to power/defense while also gaining a 95% augmentation boost. A R12 Eldritch only provides a 12% if in defense or a +700 to armor pen. Also an augment does not also gain the benefit to it's own attack powers while it's augmenting a player. Bonding stones also don't proc on an augment so your left with only expanding this with Eldritch if you have a few defense slots. Still I'm not asking anything be done to Augments they can play a role in content.
Some have suggested I have no bonding stones because of what I've suggested, but most of my main toons in fact have them, and in other cases a few of them.
Limiting augmentation to 190% is still quite a powerful boost almost doubling the gear & enchantments value that's equipped. It certainly would control things a bit but their's also more than one way to address the problem. One player said he didn't care if it was 2.5 or 5x the benefit of the enchantments he was fine the way it was. Once you let the cat out of the bag it's hard to put it back in.
It's why I suggested finding a new style of dungeon mechanic for 2500 EPIC Dungeons that also requires pulling in 2 >3300k (based on traditional item level) players with perhaps the rest being in the >2500 category where party are given a folk in the road that both must be crossed with consideration. ▪ Path A: Might require higher DPS, or could be done with a Tank / Healer. ▪ Path B: Might require moderate DPS if buffs/debuff are available.
One dungeon offers this similar to the forks in the road idea. Castle Never does this today on a smaller scale where you enter the portals you can close by yourself or with someone by your side. Perhaps that could be expanded similar to how Demogorgon or Prophecy of Madness has Green, Blue, or Purple Portals but each portal only allows no more than 2 players to enter. The portal however doesn't have to follow a skirmish format in a single room either, it could form a mini dungeon, crypt, or sewer format as well. The other idea is having the party at times be divided along a dungeon that has two parellel paths, one that allows 2 players to enter, the other 3 players but both paths must be completed to progress. Each perhaps earns different drops from mini bosses or possibly different accolades based on the path chosen. Who makes up what parties would need to be based upon clues, symbols, or hints given within the dungeon on which path they might like to try and with whom might be best to pair with.
Item level did not matter, Gear score will not matter. Its just a number which tells you almost nothing so better we not mention it.
Max boost a bonding companion can give you is 300% of its stats, 285% from bondings + 15% legendary bonus. Max boost an augment can give you is 151% of its stats, 100% normal boost+ 15% legendary bonus + 36% (if 3 def slots).
So an augment can be half as good as bonding companion. What you suggest would make it 151% vs 205% but its easier to get 2 bonding stones than 3 and additional 54% stat boost may not be worth going for, for some people. Thing is the people who design the game dont want you to get less stuff, on the contrary, they want you to get more. They want you to always have something to do, never to be finished.
205% vs 300% stat boost would not make any change in the content, bondings are not the problem. If you want to slow down dungeon runs there are other things which should be limited but question is why would we want to require even more time while we still have the same bad reward system.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
A well geared players with 3 R12 Bondings certainly doesn't even need the buff/debuff's or in fact little if any support of a party in most 1600 and 2000 dungeons. In fact many players have been in a dungeon where their damage is far lower than normal only because one player cleans everything up so fast.
What do you think is the benefit of being well geared? THAT!!! That exactly. Those characters have investments of like $500, and you want them to be same as a guy that just came to Lv. 70.
T2 dungeons don't require buffs/debuffs cause HAMSTER's just easy. You're using the wrong baselines. If you're asking for a nerf, gotta compare with the hardest stuff, since that is the most affected.
I'd caution against making to many high end 3100+ dungeons because everyone likes to try to progress thru content and perhaps an alternative mechanic could be used.
What do you do after finishing your progression? There has to be something after everything else. Those are the 3100+ dungeons.
The fact is they give more than 5x the value over anything else. It's the only Runestone that gives a dual buff of both 95% bonding & +840 to power/defense. An R12 Eldritch gives only 12% and only if in defense or +700 to Armor Pen if in offense. Augments don't proc bonding stones so their only option is Eldritch to expand their abilities or upgrade to legendary. So the Bonding already provide 2 buff benefits where others get only 1. It then goes to 3 because the companion gains the buff for it's 5 powers as does the player. An augment has no powers to attack so the bonding stone never proc's on augments. This then grow by more than a factor of 5x because the companions buff is further augment by up to 285%. So you with Striker/Controller/Leader/Defender companions your getting more than 5x the value for the enchantments and the equipped gear.
They are. a. premium product. Obviously they do better. Stop comparing with other stuffs. Bonding runestones are only available through the Zen Market, they just can't be compared with the other stuffs you keep getting at.
All right, now, I'm a pretty new player, so my input might not be well considered.
But, it does strike me as silly that augment companions, whose sole function is to boost player stats, are worse at that than normal companions. It seems like something aught to be done about that. Could augment companions somehow be altered so as to be compatible with bonding runestones? Or could bonding runestones somehow be altered to be compatible with augment companions?
Perhaps augment companions could all be given a special ability that triggers bondings? It wouldn't have to do anything else, just automatically trigger bondings at intervals.
I have the impression that uptime on bondings is close to 100% already? If that's the case, could bondings be changed to just be active all the time? If bondings didn't need to be triggered, you wouldn't need to be worried about augment companions being unable to trigger them. For that matter, all companions would be precisely equal in terms of utilizing bondings.
Many people spent lots of money on their 3xR12 bonding setup. There is no way cryptic will ever nerf them in any shape or form.
I don't like them myself as I think they are extremely OP. But they are available now to anyone willing to pay. And they are available later to anyone willing to grind. I haven't paid a single dollar myself, yet my TR already has 2xR11 and one R10 just from the daily lockbox alone. My CW is still using the free augment bot they gave out when the gateway was shut down.
1
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
In any game, even the single player ones, those who spend more, whether in terms of time or money, are inherently better.
Item level did not matter, Gear score will not matter. Its just a number which tells you almost nothing so better we not mention it.
Max boost a bonding companion can give you is 300% of its stats, 285% from bondings + 15% legendary bonus. Max boost an augment can give you is 151% of its stats, 100% normal boost+ 15% legendary bonus + 36% (if 3 def slots).
So an augment can be half as good as bonding companion. What you suggest would make it 151% vs 205% but its easier to get 2 bonding stones than 3 and additional 54% stat boost may not be worth going for, for some people. Thing is the people who design the game dont want you to get less stuff, on the contrary, they want you to get more. They want you to always have something to do, never to be finished.
205% vs 300% stat boost would not make any change in the content, bondings are not the problem. If you want to slow down dungeon runs there are other things which should be limited but question is why would we want to require even more time while we still have the same bad reward system.
Bondings stones are also the only runestone that provides two very powerful buff's where every other provide but one.
▪ R12 Bondings give +840 to Power or Defense as well as a 95% augmentation boost (to non augments). ▪ R12 Eldritch gives +700 if loaded only in Offense OR it provides but a 12% augmentation boost if in defense.
The Bonding Stone is not only providing a higher buff (which is fine) it's no different than Salvage, Brutal or Demonic Enchantments; however, it's also effectively letting both the companion & player benefit from the same bonus. So Limiting Bonding stones to the first two enchantments isn't exactly any different to how Eldritch only boost a normal companion or augment if loaded to a defense slot.
▪ Striker/Controller/Defender/etc... Can load 3 R12 Bonding gaining +840 Power/Defense + 95% augment each. ▪ Augment can be 100% to 115% @ Legendary: But extend anywhere from 0 if no defense slots, or by 36% if 3 defense. ► They also don't benefit from the buffs given while also then amplifying by up to a factor of 3.
So even if Companions were limited to 2 or 190% for bondings, most augments even at Legendary provide 115% at Legendary, and at the very most may extend it to between 127% to at most 151%. But they also don't attack with the same buff they provide the player at a greater rate.
Many people spent lots of money on their 3xR12 bonding setup. There is no way cryptic will ever nerf them in any shape or form.
I don't like them myself as I think they are extremely OP. But they are available now to anyone willing to pay. And they are available later to anyone willing to grind. I haven't paid a single dollar myself, yet my TR already has 2xR11 and one R10 just from the daily lockbox alone. My CW is still using the free augment bot they gave out when the gateway was shut down.
I also don't believe they'll be limited or at least any time soon. I've also suggested I'd much rather see them try to implement a 2500 dungeon that when queuing tries to pull in 2 >3300 gear score (old model) with 3 others 2500+ as an example. The example I used was based on the idea presented in EPIC Castle Never where the party each runs to different portals to close them. Perhaps in this dungeon their are green portals, blue portals and purple portals similar to what you see in Demogorgon or Epic Demogorgon where parties also can still be successful with a wide variety of gear scores provided they work together as a team. I stated also that portals don't have to just load a skirmish floor, they could open mini dungeons, crypts, or sewers depending on the location of the dungeon or a fork in the road where 2 party members must be chosen to go down one path and 3 the other based on clues, symbols, or other hints that might be found in the dungeon and they can dynamically change. I think it would make the dungeon experience different from what we've come to expect.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I also don't believe they'll be limited or at least any time soon. I've also suggested I'd much rather see them try to implement a 2500 dungeon that when queuing tries to pull in 2 >3300 gear score (old model) with 3 others 2500+ as an example. The example I used was based on the idea presented in EPIC Castle Never where the party each runs to different portals to close them. Perhaps in this dungeon their are green portals, blue portals and purple portals similar to what you see in Demogorgon or Epic Demogorgon where parties also can still be successful with a wide variety of gear scores provided they work together as a team. I stated also that portals don't have to just load a skirmish floor, they could open mini dungeons, crypts, or sewers depending on the location of the dungeon or a fork in the road where 2 party members must be chosen to go down one path and 3 the other based on clues, symbols, or other hints that might be found in the dungeon and they can dynamically change. I think it would make the dungeon experience different from what we've come to expect.
What exactly are you trying to solve with your suggestions ? Why dungeons need a additional gear score limit ? I make a group, whoever comes, comes, why I need this 2 x 3.3k + 2.5k or whatever?
This all started in your OP because a 3.2k HR with r12 bondings beat a 2.7k CW with an augment. I'm assuming the CW was you and that the HR was a friend of yours seeing as you knew a lot about his boon progression?
Here's something for you to try. Get that HR and Re-run that Valindra's, but this time put your 3x r11 bondings on a proper companion. By your logic you should close the gap significantly.
Personally my bet is this will not be the case and he'll still beat you by a wide margin but it will show you that although his bondings were a factor, they were not the whole story.
A CW at 2.7k generally isn't very powerful whereas HR's at 3.2k are.
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Actually people keep their best enchantments on bonding comapnions. My item lvl would be a lot higher if I would take enchantments from my archon and equipped them on me. People who are moaning about bondings are the ones who can't afford them or are to lazy. It's like "If I can't get them, no one should have them". Lol.
I'm an HR myself, topping paingiver most of the times during dung runs. I win with 4k+ gwfs, cws, while I'm 3.5k. Have you ever thought that this HR you mentioned knew his class very well and was a good player? R12 bondings won't give u top paingiver if you don't know how to utilise biting snares a master trapper.
I also don't believe they'll be limited or at least any time soon. I've also suggested I'd much rather see them try to implement a 2500 dungeon that when queuing tries to pull in 2 >3300 gear score (old model) with 3 others 2500+ as an example. The example I used was based on the idea presented in EPIC Castle Never where the party each runs to different portals to close them. Perhaps in this dungeon their are green portals, blue portals and purple portals similar to what you see in Demogorgon or Epic Demogorgon where parties also can still be successful with a wide variety of gear scores provided they work together as a team. I stated also that portals don't have to just load a skirmish floor, they could open mini dungeons, crypts, or sewers depending on the location of the dungeon or a fork in the road where 2 party members must be chosen to go down one path and 3 the other based on clues, symbols, or other hints that might be found in the dungeon and they can dynamically change. I think it would make the dungeon experience different from what we've come to expect.
What exactly are you trying to solve with your suggestions ? Why dungeons need a additional gear score limit ? I make a group, whoever comes, comes, why I need this 2 x 3.3k + 2.5k or whatever?
No existing dungeon's. A common theme talked about is many who can speedrun thru dungeons in many cases by themselves, but no one is talking about raising the difficulty of existing dungeons. Simply rather than offering more limited content like FBI of Master Spell Plague to perhaps trying an alternative method while players are gearing up their characters. Introducing a dungeon that pulled a team that requires more sections of divided challenges keeps it challenging for all.
Bondings can very extremely powerful enchantments and on top of that the benefit are magnified considerably.
An Augments can only expand it's augmentation by going to legendary to earn 15% more, and then can only extend it further by using up to R12 Eldritch only if they have an 1-3 defense runestone slots. Bonding stones don't PROC in an augment with no attack powers; they also don't gain the benefit themselves while also passing to the player.
Strikers, Controllers, Leaders, or Defender's however with Bonding stones both gain the benefit themselves as well as the player. Those bonding stones also provide the highest buff of any R12 enchantment similar to Brutal, Savage, or Demonic Enchantments which is fine; however, they also provide two buff where others provide but one. You get the +840 power/defense but also the 95% augmentation. An R12 Eldritch for example provides either a 12% augmentation (defense) or +700 armor pen. Bondings also turn a companion who has powerful attacks also into the equivalent of 3 augment companions. This has opened the doors for many to do speed runs of content as they can boost a players buff in excess of 33,500 which is almost 5x more than all the boons from every campaign. Sure I recognize as do others you could speedrun some content without bondings entirely, and no one is suggesting that.
This all started in your OP because a 3.2k HR with r12 bondings beat a 2.7k CW with an augment. I'm assuming the CW was you and that the HR was a friend of yours seeing as you knew a lot about his boon progression?
Here's something for you to try. Get that HR and Re-run that Valindra's, but this time put your 3x r11 bondings on a proper companion. By your logic you should close the gap significantly.
Personally my bet is this will not be the case and he'll still beat you by a wide margin but it will show you that although his bondings were a factor, they were not the whole story.
A CW at 2.7k generally isn't very powerful whereas HR's at 3.2k are.
No this started long before that in this and other threads... I personally don't care that the HR beat my Wizard but it is a little sad to see such drastic differences in similarly geared players that can often be created by bonding stones or at least 3 of them. While I certainly appreciate the help of some higher gear players it is a bit sad to see a 3.2k gear player with a Rank 7 Plaque Fire Enchantment having obtained 1/3 the boons you have getting 60m damage when you with a Rank 8 Dread as a Wizard made just over 17m because his companion had 3 R12 bonding stones and all his best enchantments. Now one could argue if he equipped them directly his gear score would increase considerably, that is true. But Bonding Magnify that benefit by a factor of 5x or more as I've explained above. I have bonding stones to for my non augment pet's as do some others in this thread who have acknowledge their massively overpowered; still, I wouldn't want to see any change to the stone themselves. It's why I've suggested possibly limiting them to the first two slots, it's no different than an Augment than can only enhance this ability if theirs a defense slot. Also the augment does not also gain the benefit while it's also passing it on to the player at 3x the magnification.
Actually people keep their best enchantments on bonding comapnions. My item lvl would be a lot higher if I would take enchantments from my archon and equipped them on me. People who are moaning about bondings are the ones who can't afford them or are to lazy. It's like "If I can't get them, no one should have them". Lol.
I'm an HR myself, topping paingiver most of the times during dung runs. I win with 4k+ gwfs, cws, while I'm 3.5k. Have you ever thought that this HR you mentioned knew his class very well and was a good player? R12 bondings won't give u top paingiver if you don't know how to utilise biting snares a master trapper.
I acknowledge above had the HR taken out his high rank enchantments his gear score would be far higher. I'm also not complaining that he did more damage than me. I also have bonding stones myself. Still the focus is the magnitude of the benefits bondings offer, they are far beyond anything else in the game by a wide margin. I'm also not asking they be changed in any way, simply be limited to 2 per companion. The companion gains the benefits from the enchantments whereas an augment does not, an augment is limited to expanding it only in defense with Eldritch, where as any companion can equip 3 of them gaining a 95% augmentation benefit.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
Here is a completely different proposal:
1) Keep bondings as they are in non-augment companions. They proc based on the companion function and survivability.
2) Make bondings in augment companions a simple % stat boost. + 95% stat boost at rank 12.
Thus, a legendary Augment companion with 3 rank 12s will have a 400% stat boost (100% + 15% + 285%), AND no stat from the bonding stone.
A legendary non-Augment companion with 3 rank 12s will have a 300% stat boost (15% + 285%) AND have the bonding stone stats (+2520 preboosting).
At first glance this looks like the non-Augment companions will have much higher stats overall and thus more desirable. But lets do the math:
First lets use the standard Stone of Allure as the legendary augment. At legendary it has 1188 in stats. Non-augment companions differ in stats at legendary between 1500 and 2000.
So, for the purpose of EASY comparison we will round to 1200 for the augment and 1750 for the non-augment.
Next, we will give the same gear in each augment: 3x loyal avenger + 6xdouble statted rank 12s. This totals a whopping 10257 in stat points.
So, the augment will have total stats of: Gear/Enchants (10257) + stats (1200) + 3xbonding (no stats) = 11457. The non augment will have total stats of: Gear/Enchants (10257) + stats (1750) + 3xbonding (2520) = 14527.
But wait, all this does is show the non-augment is still superior! However, we multiply by the % boost now.
For the augment it is a 400% boost, while the non-augment is only 300%.
The final boost total is: Augment stat boost total of 45828. The Non-augment stat boost is 43581.
This means the Augment beats the non-augment (by nature of its 100% natural augmentation) by 2300 stat points.
So, why would someone choose a non-augment?
Well, now Augment and Non-augment will be chosen for: 1) active bonuses 2) the additional functions of the companion 3) survivability (augments don't die) 4) the kind of gear put into the augment and non-augment.
This SIMPLE change addresses all the issues (except for complaints against power creep). 1) It does nothing to the current use of bondings in non-augments. 2) It changes how bondings are used in augments to make them competitive. 3) It does not decrease the revenue stream cryptic receives from bondings 4) It opens the door for further customization and experimentation with companion gear choices
Agreed. I don't think that would work either. The goal wasn't to make Augments more powerful just place a little more control on the benefits non augments receive. Being able to have your companion benefit from all the gear & enchantments equipped, while you also are able to effectively also gain 3 times that benefit alone provides a 4 to 1 advantage. It goes to 5 as it's the only enchant or runestone that has a double benefit as well. So even if limited to 2 bonding stones you're companion still gets the full benefit while you still effectively doubling the value of all the enchantments slotted. So you'd still see most putting their best enchantments into their companion. A few Bonding stones simply can be shared to other active companions.
In future gear score will be comprised of far more than we currently see, and provide a much more accurate view that it does today--it may not be perfect but a significantly more accurate view than today. I acknowledge we do need some elephants who have invested in the game to help up others finish Epic Dungeons either with friends or members of their guild or alliance. Nobody wants to see more content restricted content or things being unavailable to more players.
Still limiting bonding only to only two BONDING stones still provides an extremely powerful advantage:
▪ Bonding in Non Augments still benefit the companion, and the player still has that magnified by 190%. ▪ If they upgraded their companion to Legendary that would be further expanded to 205%. ▪ They'd still obtain the higher +840 buff in addition to the 95% per stone slotted, just the max would be 2. ▪▪ Similar to Savage, Brutal or Demonic Enchantments at R12 (Which get a +840 buff but not something else as well). ▪ R12 Eldritch provide only a +700 armor pen in offense or a 12% augment bonus in defense. ▪▪ Bonding gives a +840 & 95% augmentation while also both the companion & player benefit from the same buff. ▪▪ Bonding is 8x more powerful than the R12 Eldritch while giving a dual benefit no other Enchantment/Runestone does.
>a few bonding stones simply can be shared to other activ compaions<
Wth are u talking about?
And a friendly reminder: rank 8 eldritch runestone costs about 6k AD. Bonding rank 8 is about 300k iirc. So its reasonable for them to be ALOT better. (50x the price remember)
Can we finaly stop these nerf threads?
Just give us tierd dungeons with according rewards.
I'm not disagreeing as they are a rarer form of Runestone.
A single lesser bonding is included with Epic or Rare Companions in the Zen Store, and a few Epic or Rare Companions in Lockboxes include them as well. Sometimes a R8 Bondings stone can drop from a Lockbox pack, but it's can also be just as viable to get a Rank 8 Eldritch.
I'll admit it would be nice if we had a few new Runestones similar to what was done with enchantments when they introduced Salvage, Brutal and Demonic Enchantments. Still while those enhanced enchantments offered a similar buff to Bonding they didn't also add a second powerful benefit. :*
I have never asked for a Neff and this certainly is not that because the stones remain the same they function in the same manner. Just one less could be slotted to only into the first two slots.
Today many augments are limited in that manner as most have no more than two defense slots and others only one or none.
Perhaps if anything the one thing it highlights even if bondings don't change: ▪ A companion with 3 R12 bonding can provide almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all the boons combined.
Yes actually you have asked for a nerf - you have asked that regular companions get downgraded by ~33% of their effectiveness.
I also noticed you completely avoided my suggestion that you re-run the dungeon but using your r11 bondings and a normal companion. You assert there's little gear difference between you and you say the main difference is he's upgraded artifacts, which is 120 points? Yeah that 30% of the IL difference between you, where's the other 70? You also say his artifacts are Legendary but you do not mention what rank - are they 100 or 139 because that's a variation of over 5,000 stat points.
You state he has a r7 Plaguefire but you avoid mentioning where he IS getting his IL from - especially as you say "The Control Wizard even had better gear than the HR with 150 head, 150 armor, 150 arms (survivor's wraps) and similar enchantments.". It's also odd that he'd have a r7 PF on a 3.2k character unless he's using a proper one elsewhere - which again is illogical as he has expensive enchantments on his companion and the ones on the character must be mostly rank 9-10 - but again, you only mention the one that justifies your position because going for a really dirt cheap WE on a character he's obviously geared and obviously understands HOW to gear is strange.
The reason I'm saying this is because you present 'evidence' in an extremely biased manner, leaving out facts that go against your position and using what's left as the sole logical factors in your conclusions.
You also work from the assumption that the DPS output of the CW and the HR are equal at the same progression stages and that you both have an equal understanding of your builds - i.e. all things apart from bondings are equal. That is a big assumption and usually wrong, but please provide some actual numbers.
Can you also state how you know he has done less than 50% of the boons?
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
edited April 2017
Leave bondings as they are. Leave Augments as they are, no need to change anything.
Augments are cheap and are fine as a stepping stone to bigger and better things - bondings
Nerf this, nerf that . . . . . . it never ends
Augments are old and should be significantly worse than a companion with bondings, asking for them to be buffed or brought closer to bondings is like asking for M11 or M10 weapons to be nerfed so that M6 EE weapons are on par with the latest and greatest. It's bad form.
I'm not leaving anything out that does not justify my story. That example is but one of many you can find in a lot of dungeons runs. I'm just trying to summarize things without writing a Novel.
The simple facts are well quite simple: ▪ A fully gear geared companion with R12 enchantments & 3 R12 Bondings boosts the benefits by a factor of 3. ▪▪ In this case the companion gain's the benefit, while the player gains 3x the magnitude, possibly 3x extended to the party. ▪ An Augment does this at 100-115% or up to two R12 Eldritch by 12% each if it has two defense slots. ▪▪ Unlike the Augment which gets an either / or choice when using Eldritch, a companion gets both with Bonding. ▪▪ The Augments only role is that, and if a buff's is extended to a party, is far lower magnitude.
I'm sorry that you feel it is a nerf.
Still others have asked for more tiered Dungeons, so perhaps that if anything is where this could lead. I've suggested perhaps something similar but with a twist with a variation on something done in Castle Never. Has Cryptic ever tried to introduce a two tiered dungeon perhaps 2500 that pulls 2 (>3.3k players) with 3 (>2.5k players) where perhaps you start together but progress thru portions in groups of 2 or 3? We have portals some players go into during Castle Never, some together, others alone, that takes you into a skirmish floor, but those could even be Mini Dungeons, Crypts or Sewers and depending on the Color of Portal players decide which 2 or 3 players attempt it based on clues, symbols, or hints dropped in the dungeon. They could even change every run... I'd rather see something like this implemented if it could be done well.
Still it's hard to argue a companion with 3 R12 bondings stones provides: ▪ A powerful companion who benefits & extends a player almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all campaign boons combined.
Post edited by strathkin on
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Yes, it is true that there is some serious power creep in the game, but quite frankly I think your suggestion will create more problems than it fixes.
Augments were never supposed to be in any sense comparable to a summoned companion with bonding runestones. They are cheaper - one even claimable on every new alt when you arrive in PE for the first time. They are meant to be inferior - that's just how things are.
What i mean with tiered dungeons is not what i are talking about. Why the heck should u pull to player of certain GS and 3 players of some other GS. What problems does this solve? I dont get it. I want things like (for example)
FBI (the version now)
Hard FBI (2x hp, enemys deal 30% more dmg,)
Very hard FBI( 4x HP, 2x dmg resist, 100% more dmg)
Impossible FBI (10x HP 4x dmg resist 200% more dmg, all enemys controll immune,...)
I've already broken down stat allocations for you but you've also failed to address that point:
On a fully geared player, a bonded companion represents appx 20% of a players stats. The fact that someone can move r12's to a new character and give them a buff that is high for their level is no different to a 2k character being in a GH20 guild and getting an extra 8k power & defence/lifesteal - or having 5 purple mounts available and kitting them out with purple insignias.
It distorts the perception of their IL until they get everything else closer to maxed. This of course is going to be fixed on the next update when companions, mounts and boons are added to item level.
Can I just reiterate the point that removing the bonding bonus from a BiS player will reduce their in-combat stats by appx 6.5% and will not have the impact you're saying it will.
Your arguments are without statistical validity and it's very notable that you continue to avoid addressing these points. It's also notable that now your original comparison has been shown to be completely invalid that you've tried to avoid it by saying " That example is but one of many you can find in a lot of dungeons runs" which again avoids giving any evidence to support your position.
Please stop talking in generalisations and deal with the detail because without that you may as well just post "please change bondings cos someone beat my CW and I thought it was unfair..."
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Very hard FBI( 4x HP, 2x dmg resist, 100% more dmg)
Impossible FBI (10x HP 4x dmg resist 200% more dmg, all enemys controll immune,...)
This would make sense only if the rewards went up accordingly, but the policy seems to be that no matter how hard the dungeon is, you are not supposed to have a realistic chance of getting anything valuable.
Things were a lot more fun way back when you would get unbound items that you could sell for a decent amount of AD, but right now, well...the sad fact is that a lot of the content is just not worth running - the reward/effort ratio is just too low.
This is particularly irritating in the case of something like mSP. I ran that yesterday for the first time and walked away with salvage worth maybe 8000 AD or so.
It's a good looking dungeon - it's great to see all the changes that have been made, but why, why would I want to ever run it again? Considering the effort, the reward just isn't there.
The same applies to your "hard" dungeons - sure, they could easily make harder versions (but then again, that was really already the idea behind having "normal" and "master" versions of the same content), but for even harder versions, you would want to see even better loot, and I just cannot see that happen without a policy change.
From what i see, the problem lies in both augment and bonding does the same thing, to boost player stat except bonding does it better. That makes player with augment companion feels they are wasting slot keeping it. My suggestion is to make bonding stone only able to transfer stat that are only in the companion sheet while making augment able to transfer stat that is not in the companion sheet for example, control bonus & aggro generation from SCA equiptment, ap gain, stamina gain from armor kit, con,dex,str from artifact belt, hitpoint stat from enchantment etc. That will at least make augment viable again without making any nerf decision to anger the crowd. It will also increase the sales of augment companion in zen store.
Also i would also ask to Bring back SCA stuff into the game as it will be unfair for new player that join this game after the shutdown of SCA.
Still it's hard to argue a companion with 3 R12 bondings stones provides: ▪ A powerful companion who benefits & extends a player almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all campaign boons combined.
Specifically on this point I'll quote my earlier post to disprove this:
"Legendary companion (with procs): ~27.3k Stronghold Boons (exc utility & pvp): 16k Other boons: tricky to add but say 9*4*400= 14.4k plus a bunch of situational effects giving somewhere in the region of 20k? So roughly 25k at any one time?"
So companion stats are slightly above campaign specific boons - about 10% and not the 250% you stated. Honestly, where are you pulling your figures from??
When you add SH boons they represent only 39% of added stats. When you add everything else (which you should do) they represent the previously stated 20% of total in-combat stats.
I will also repeat - why on earth are you running an augment and why are you using this as a baseline? The purpose of augments is to assist lower level players in the early stages of the game - they are not end-game BiS and you are misrepresenting them by treating them as the baseline against which all stats should be measured.
Edit: can I also ask what class your main character is - or is it the CW?
Post edited by armadeonx on
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Yes, it is true that there is some serious power creep in the game, but quite frankly I think your suggestion will create more problems than it fixes.
Augments were never supposed to be in any sense comparable to a summoned companion with bonding runestones. They are cheaper - one even claimable on every new alt when you arrive in PE for the first time. They are meant to be inferior - that's just how things are.
That is completely a fair statement. I created this thread only because some have suggested exactly that. Cause you see many posts about the serious power creep or concerns caused by some seeing speed runs of one or two players in dungeons that are often still very challenging for many. There is also some suggestions it is created by support classes (buffs/debuffs) should be investigated, yet often those classes have those buffs as they've made other sacrifices for the party's benefit. Also it doesn't make sense when you see one or two DPS classes speed running an entire dungeon with no support class be they cleric, paladin, guardian, or wizard even around?
I agree companions should be slightly superior to augments, or as you've suggested augments slightly inferior.
It was simply a suggestion that perhaps bonding played a role. As a striker/controller/leader/defender companion is the only one that receives the full benefits of the buff to attack with, but then also uses it while also amplifying by a factor of up to 3x to the player. Whereas an augment only augments those abilities and does nothing with them itself, only to pass them on to the player. I've heard a few state my argument is flawed and perhaps maybe it is.
Still we agree on a few things like the power creep discussion in forums, and that augments were never designed to be superior to strikers, controllers, leaders or defender companions.
Typically the most an Augment companions provides is no more than 2 defense slots so their maximum augmentation benefit is between 100% - 139%; where other companions have 5 attack abilities yet extend augmentation up to 300% using the same buff's they attack with.
It had just seemed to be a plausible contributor... but as anyone knows there's many factors at play in this game.
What i mean with tiered dungeons is not what i are talking about. Why the heck should u pull to player of certain GS and 3 players of some other GS. What problems does this solve? I dont get it.
I want things like (for example)
FBI (the version now)
Hard FBI (2x hp, enemys deal 30% more dmg,)
Very hard FBI( 4x HP, 2x dmg resist, 100% more dmg)
Impossible FBI (10x HP 4x dmg resist 200% more dmg, all enemys controll immune,...)
And so on.
I just wanted to reply and state that yes I fully read everything you suggested, and just as you've explained it above was how I had interpreted before.
I was simply suggesting an alternative. Perhaps not for every dungeon but perhaps one Epic Dungeon similar to the Illusionist Gambit that gradually increases difficulty and asks when your done. Or expanding what's done in Castle Never where people run into Portals some alone others together but doesn't have to be a small skirmish floor, could instead be a mini dungeons / crypts / sewers from within the dungeon that requires no more than 2 or 3 players complete but whom chooses what? It was just an idea to add a little more variety or dynamics as situations change based on the class and skills of each player. Nothing more nothing less.
From what i see, the problem lies in both augment and bonding does the same thing, to boost player stat except bonding does it better. That makes player with augment companion feels they are wasting slot keeping it. My suggestion is to make bonding stone only able to transfer stat that are only in the companion sheet while making augment able to transfer stat that is not in the companion sheet for example, control bonus & aggro generation from SCA equiptment, ap gain, stamina gain from armor kit, con,dex,str from artifact belt, hitpoint stat from enchantment etc. That will at least make augment viable again without making any nerf decision to anger the crowd. It will also increase the sales of augment companion in zen store.
Also i would also ask to Bring back SCA stuff into the game as it will be unfair for new player that join this game after the shutdown of SCA.
Well this is refreshing cause now we seeing some trying to use a little out of the box thinking... I don't how or if that could be implemented but it is never-the-less an original and very creative solution.
Still it's hard to argue a companion with 3 R12 bondings stones provides: ▪ A powerful companion who benefits & extends a player almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all campaign boons combined.
Specifically on this point I'll quote my earlier post to disprove this:
"Legendary companion (with procs): ~27.3k Stronghold Boons (exc utility & pvp): 16k Other boons: tricky to add but say 9*4*400= 14.4k plus a bunch of situational effects giving somewhere in the region of 20k? So roughly 25k at any one time?"
So companion stats are slightly above campaign specific boons - about 10% and not the 250% you stated. Honestly, where are you pulling your figures from??
When you add SH boons they represent only 39% of added stats. When you add everything else (which you should do) they represent the previously stated 20% of total in-combat stats.
I will also repeat - why on earth are you running an augment and why are you using this as a baseline? The purpose of augments is to assist lower level players in the early stages of the game - they are not end-game BiS and you are misrepresenting them by treating them as the baseline against which all stats should be measured.
Edit: can I also ask what class your main character is - or is it the CW?
You number isn't very far off from mine. I originally didn't include Brynn or River as those are far more recent many have just started working thru; still even if we use all boons using your 21k estimate rounded up... I won't hold you as it just a good estimate not a balance sheet used to emphasize a point. Also realize the 1/5 of boons don't either directly benefit you offensively or defensively or provide a 'chance' that something could or could not happen there is no tangible of what the chance of damaging someone for 3000 damage--how great is your chance depends on how lucky your feeling. If you're feeling really lucky after surviving a battle and the +1200 regeneration from Drow Mediation (which is by far the largest available) which does not take effect until after you leave combat; it might save you a few healing potions the odd time as you run to the next challenge then today's the day you'll want to open a few lockboxes. I think I'll have to try opening at least 10 myself
A companion is capable at most in of receiving 12777 in buff's given to the player at 300% or 38331.
So based upon the companions quality it's initial attacks before being buffed by any runestones, gear, or enchantments will start higher and gain a higher damage % increases for every 2500-3000 it's various given. One companion depending on their quality may get 10% another could be as high as 15% every time that value crosses that milestone. Now for Armor Pen every 1500 or so roughly works out to means 12-17% more Penetration and for Critical Strike every 2000 increases the chance by about 4-7%. These values vary slightly by the companions based upon their quality as well as their class and type.
Now lets assume a Legendary Striker Companion is equipped with all R12 Brutal's given +420 Power & +420 Critical which it has 6 of. It's also using in this particular case using 3 of the new Fierce +4 Companion gear providing +348 Power & +521 Critical along with the 3 R12 Bonding Stones giving 3 +840 boost to Power. In this scenario the companion receives 11,007 (6084 Power & 4923 Critical) not the possible maximum of 12,777 spoken of earlier as I'm trying to use a simple example with only two values to give a player to comprise the full buff of 33,021 (18252 Power & 14769 Critical) in this case.
For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin at 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents a 14% power boost. It roughly works with some variation works out to about 10% gain for every 4000 in power.
As for critical would be increased by 14769 increases the critical hit chance by over 30%. For each class it's slightly different but generally every 4k comes very close to about a 10% damage boost.
Now remember with bondings the companion gains the full benefit for their attacks which also show up in the players Damage calculation so were not only in this just evaluating 33,021 against your 21k (example) we also have to add what the companion benefits [33,021+11,007] so divide 44028/21k - oh heck lets even bump it up to 22k in case you were really low. Also unlike boons which can include a wide variety of benefits companions gear, runestones or enchantments in this case can be focused on just one or two offensive or defensive abilities. In this example their the two more desired offensive abilities that are going to boost damage by far the furthest. In this case even when I bumped up your own estimate twice the companion still provides 2x (2.00172) higher benefit over the campaign boons by your own estimate which I even increased twice over a mix of offensive, defensive, out of combat or even a unidentified chance of boons.
Now keep in mind that's not the highest which was [(12777)x3]+12777=51108/22k=2.32 times which is very close to my original 2.5x where I had not included Brynn or River into the total. No by no means am I saying the boons are highly valuable because they are, and over the course of the next year or two even more will be added. I was hoping to avoid much of this detail as I was simply trying to illustrate a point.
Post edited by strathkin on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Lets look at the power increase not when we are naked, but for someone that can afford rank 12 bondings. That means at least 30k power in resting mode. Lets take your 6084 power, bondings provide 2.85 and not x3 like you calculated. We get 17339 power. In terms of dps this will net a 24.803% increase and not 47%.
"we also have to add what the companion benefits [33,021+11,007] so divide 44028/21k" What you added here? The companion damage has different functions, and is completely negligible, around 1% of the players total.
Upgrade augments to give ten times the stats at 20 times the current augment costs?
I have acknowledge countless times factually that bonding can provide up to 285%, I've also been very clear the other 15% if from the Legendary Bonus. If I'm looking at something I've identified the whole package; as a result I've clearly identified which runestones, gear, and even enchantments where loaded into a striker companion. I then showed the example as part of a total package so the value of 18252 power is correct in the context provided (people are smart enough to realize 15% of that comes from the Legendary Bonus) from the Striker Companion as I've been extremely clear in how I've explained it.
I was also very clear when I stated For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin with 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. A Cleric or Great Weapon Fighter with 35,500 power represents a 89% power boost again if you take 35,500/4000 for every 10% boost=8.875 or 89%. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents about a 14% power boost. Its only a minor variation by class but works out to about a 10% gain for every 4000 in power growth; so I respectfully disagree with your statement that only represents a 24% increase. 17339/4000=4.334 or each 4000 representing 10%(43%) power boost, or using the conditions I've clearly outlined a 46-47% damage bonus based upon example given.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Comments
It also limits the over zealousness of the benefits to still being highly powerful boosts of 3x or more but when today if offers more than 5x many are still likely to oppose this. Even though it's potentially a benefit that their companion, they themselves benefit 285%, and possibly even their entire party gain's 285% of the benefit.
Bonding are the only enchant that gives +840 to power/defense while also gaining a 95% augmentation boost. A R12 Eldritch only provides a 12% if in defense or a +700 to armor pen. Also an augment does not also gain the benefit to it's own attack powers while it's augmenting a player. Bonding stones also don't proc on an augment so your left with only expanding this with Eldritch if you have a few defense slots. Still I'm not asking anything be done to Augments they can play a role in content.
Some have suggested I have no bonding stones because of what I've suggested, but most of my main toons in fact have them, and in other cases a few of them.
Limiting augmentation to 190% is still quite a powerful boost almost doubling the gear & enchantments value that's equipped. It certainly would control things a bit but their's also more than one way to address the problem. One player said he didn't care if it was 2.5 or 5x the benefit of the enchantments he was fine the way it was. Once you let the cat out of the bag it's hard to put it back in.
It's why I suggested finding a new style of dungeon mechanic for 2500 EPIC Dungeons that also requires pulling in 2 >3300k (based on traditional item level) players with perhaps the rest being in the >2500 category where party are given a folk in the road that both must be crossed with consideration.
▪ Path A: Might require higher DPS, or could be done with a Tank / Healer.
▪ Path B: Might require moderate DPS if buffs/debuff are available.
One dungeon offers this similar to the forks in the road idea. Castle Never does this today on a smaller scale where you enter the portals you can close by yourself or with someone by your side. Perhaps that could be expanded similar to how Demogorgon or Prophecy of Madness has Green, Blue, or Purple Portals but each portal only allows no more than 2 players to enter. The portal however doesn't have to follow a skirmish format in a single room either, it could form a mini dungeon, crypt, or sewer format as well. The other idea is having the party at times be divided along a dungeon that has two parellel paths, one that allows 2 players to enter, the other 3 players but both paths must be completed to progress. Each perhaps earns different drops from mini bosses or possibly different accolades based on the path chosen. Who makes up what parties would need to be based upon clues, symbols, or hints given within the dungeon on which path they might like to try and with whom might be best to pair with.
Max boost a bonding companion can give you is 300% of its stats, 285% from bondings + 15% legendary bonus.
Max boost an augment can give you is 151% of its stats, 100% normal boost+ 15% legendary bonus + 36% (if 3 def slots).
So an augment can be half as good as bonding companion. What you suggest would make it 151% vs 205% but its easier to get 2 bonding stones than 3 and additional 54% stat boost may not be worth going for, for some people. Thing is the people who design the game dont want you to get less stuff, on the contrary, they want you to get more. They want you to always have something to do, never to be finished.
205% vs 300% stat boost would not make any change in the content, bondings are not the problem. If you want to slow down dungeon runs there are other things which should be limited but question is why would we want to require even more time while we still have the same bad reward system.
T2 dungeons don't require buffs/debuffs cause HAMSTER's just easy. You're using the wrong baselines. If you're asking for a nerf, gotta compare with the hardest stuff, since that is the most affected. What do you do after finishing your progression? There has to be something after everything else. Those are the 3100+ dungeons. They are. a. premium product. Obviously they do better. Stop comparing with other stuffs. Bonding runestones are only available through the Zen Market, they just can't be compared with the other stuffs you keep getting at.
But, it does strike me as silly that augment companions, whose sole function is to boost player stats, are worse at that than normal companions. It seems like something aught to be done about that. Could augment companions somehow be altered so as to be compatible with bonding runestones? Or could bonding runestones somehow be altered to be compatible with augment companions?
Perhaps augment companions could all be given a special ability that triggers bondings? It wouldn't have to do anything else, just automatically trigger bondings at intervals.
I have the impression that uptime on bondings is close to 100% already? If that's the case, could bondings be changed to just be active all the time? If bondings didn't need to be triggered, you wouldn't need to be worried about augment companions being unable to trigger them. For that matter, all companions would be precisely equal in terms of utilizing bondings.
I don't like them myself as I think they are extremely OP. But they are available now to anyone willing to pay. And they are available later to anyone willing to grind. I haven't paid a single dollar myself, yet my TR already has 2xR11 and one R10 just from the daily lockbox alone. My CW is still using the free augment bot they gave out when the gateway was shut down.
That's just how it works.
You can't be lazy if you want the best. Period.
▪ R12 Bondings give +840 to Power or Defense as well as a 95% augmentation boost (to non augments).
▪ R12 Eldritch gives +700 if loaded only in Offense OR it provides but a 12% augmentation boost if in defense.
The Bonding Stone is not only providing a higher buff (which is fine) it's no different than Salvage, Brutal or Demonic Enchantments; however, it's also effectively letting both the companion & player benefit from the same bonus. So Limiting Bonding stones to the first two enchantments isn't exactly any different to how Eldritch only boost a normal companion or augment if loaded to a defense slot.
▪ Striker/Controller/Defender/etc... Can load 3 R12 Bonding gaining +840 Power/Defense + 95% augment each.
▪ Augment can be 100% to 115% @ Legendary: But extend anywhere from 0 if no defense slots, or by 36% if 3 defense.
► They also don't benefit from the buffs given while also then amplifying by up to a factor of 3.
So even if Companions were limited to 2 or 190% for bondings, most augments even at Legendary provide 115% at Legendary, and at the very most may extend it to between 127% to at most 151%. But they also don't attack with the same buff they provide the player at a greater rate. I also don't believe they'll be limited or at least any time soon. I've also suggested I'd much rather see them try to implement a 2500 dungeon that when queuing tries to pull in 2 >3300 gear score (old model) with 3 others 2500+ as an example. The example I used was based on the idea presented in EPIC Castle Never where the party each runs to different portals to close them. Perhaps in this dungeon their are green portals, blue portals and purple portals similar to what you see in Demogorgon or Epic Demogorgon where parties also can still be successful with a wide variety of gear scores provided they work together as a team. I stated also that portals don't have to just load a skirmish floor, they could open mini dungeons, crypts, or sewers depending on the location of the dungeon or a fork in the road where 2 party members must be chosen to go down one path and 3 the other based on clues, symbols, or other hints that might be found in the dungeon and they can dynamically change. I think it would make the dungeon experience different from what we've come to expect.
Here's something for you to try. Get that HR and Re-run that Valindra's, but this time put your 3x r11 bondings on a proper companion. By your logic you should close the gap significantly.
Personally my bet is this will not be the case and he'll still beat you by a wide margin but it will show you that although his bondings were a factor, they were not the whole story.
A CW at 2.7k generally isn't very powerful whereas HR's at 3.2k are.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I'm an HR myself, topping paingiver most of the times during dung runs. I win with 4k+ gwfs, cws, while I'm 3.5k. Have you ever thought that this HR you mentioned knew his class very well and was a good player? R12 bondings won't give u top paingiver if you don't know how to utilise biting snares a master trapper.
Bondings can very extremely powerful enchantments and on top of that the benefit are magnified considerably.
An Augments can only expand it's augmentation by going to legendary to earn 15% more, and then can only extend it further by using up to R12 Eldritch only if they have an 1-3 defense runestone slots. Bonding stones don't PROC in an augment with no attack powers; they also don't gain the benefit themselves while also passing to the player.
Strikers, Controllers, Leaders, or Defender's however with Bonding stones both gain the benefit themselves as well as the player. Those bonding stones also provide the highest buff of any R12 enchantment similar to Brutal, Savage, or Demonic Enchantments which is fine; however, they also provide two buff where others provide but one. You get the +840 power/defense but also the 95% augmentation. An R12 Eldritch for example provides either a 12% augmentation (defense) or +700 armor pen. Bondings also turn a companion who has powerful attacks also into the equivalent of 3 augment companions. This has opened the doors for many to do speed runs of content as they can boost a players buff in excess of 33,500 which is almost 5x more than all the boons from every campaign. Sure I recognize as do others you could speedrun some content without bondings entirely, and no one is suggesting that. No this started long before that in this and other threads... I personally don't care that the HR beat my Wizard but it is a little sad to see such drastic differences in similarly geared players that can often be created by bonding stones or at least 3 of them. While I certainly appreciate the help of some higher gear players it is a bit sad to see a 3.2k gear player with a Rank 7 Plaque Fire Enchantment having obtained 1/3 the boons you have getting 60m damage when you with a Rank 8 Dread as a Wizard made just over 17m because his companion had 3 R12 bonding stones and all his best enchantments. Now one could argue if he equipped them directly his gear score would increase considerably, that is true. But Bonding Magnify that benefit by a factor of 5x or more as I've explained above. I have bonding stones to for my non augment pet's as do some others in this thread who have acknowledge their massively overpowered; still, I wouldn't want to see any change to the stone themselves. It's why I've suggested possibly limiting them to the first two slots, it's no different than an Augment than can only enhance this ability if theirs a defense slot. Also the augment does not also gain the benefit while it's also passing it on to the player at 3x the magnification. I acknowledge above had the HR taken out his high rank enchantments his gear score would be far higher. I'm also not complaining that he did more damage than me. I also have bonding stones myself. Still the focus is the magnitude of the benefits bondings offer, they are far beyond anything else in the game by a wide margin. I'm also not asking they be changed in any way, simply be limited to 2 per companion. The companion gains the benefits from the enchantments whereas an augment does not, an augment is limited to expanding it only in defense with Eldritch, where as any companion can equip 3 of them gaining a 95% augmentation benefit.
1) Keep bondings as they are in non-augment companions. They proc based on the companion function and survivability.
2) Make bondings in augment companions a simple % stat boost. + 95% stat boost at rank 12.
Thus, a legendary Augment companion with 3 rank 12s will have a 400% stat boost (100% + 15% + 285%), AND no stat from the bonding stone.
A legendary non-Augment companion with 3 rank 12s will have a 300% stat boost (15% + 285%) AND have the bonding stone stats (+2520 preboosting).
At first glance this looks like the non-Augment companions will have much higher stats overall and thus more desirable. But lets do the math:
First lets use the standard Stone of Allure as the legendary augment. At legendary it has 1188 in stats.
Non-augment companions differ in stats at legendary between 1500 and 2000.
So, for the purpose of EASY comparison we will round to 1200 for the augment and 1750 for the non-augment.
Next, we will give the same gear in each augment: 3x loyal avenger + 6xdouble statted rank 12s.
This totals a whopping 10257 in stat points.
So, the augment will have total stats of: Gear/Enchants (10257) + stats (1200) + 3xbonding (no stats) = 11457.
The non augment will have total stats of: Gear/Enchants (10257) + stats (1750) + 3xbonding (2520) = 14527.
But wait, all this does is show the non-augment is still superior! However, we multiply by the % boost now.
For the augment it is a 400% boost, while the non-augment is only 300%.
The final boost total is: Augment stat boost total of 45828. The Non-augment stat boost is 43581.
This means the Augment beats the non-augment (by nature of its 100% natural augmentation) by 2300 stat points.
So, why would someone choose a non-augment?
Well, now Augment and Non-augment will be chosen for:
1) active bonuses
2) the additional functions of the companion
3) survivability (augments don't die)
4) the kind of gear put into the augment and non-augment.
This SIMPLE change addresses all the issues (except for complaints against power creep).
1) It does nothing to the current use of bondings in non-augments.
2) It changes how bondings are used in augments to make them competitive.
3) It does not decrease the revenue stream cryptic receives from bondings
4) It opens the door for further customization and experimentation with companion gear choices
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
In future gear score will be comprised of far more than we currently see, and provide a much more accurate view that it does today--it may not be perfect but a significantly more accurate view than today. I acknowledge we do need some elephants who have invested in the game to help up others finish Epic Dungeons either with friends or members of their guild or alliance. Nobody wants to see more content restricted content or things being unavailable to more players.
Still limiting bonding only to only two BONDING stones still provides an extremely powerful advantage:
▪ Bonding in Non Augments still benefit the companion, and the player still has that magnified by 190%.
▪ If they upgraded their companion to Legendary that would be further expanded to 205%.
▪ They'd still obtain the higher +840 buff in addition to the 95% per stone slotted, just the max would be 2.
▪▪ Similar to Savage, Brutal or Demonic Enchantments at R12 (Which get a +840 buff but not something else as well).
▪ R12 Eldritch provide only a +700 armor pen in offense or a 12% augment bonus in defense.
▪▪ Bonding gives a +840 & 95% augmentation while also both the companion & player benefit from the same buff.
▪▪ Bonding is 8x more powerful than the R12 Eldritch while giving a dual benefit no other Enchantment/Runestone does.
Wth are u talking about?
And a friendly reminder: rank 8 eldritch runestone costs about 6k AD. Bonding rank 8 is about 300k iirc. So its reasonable for them to be ALOT better. (50x the price remember)
Can we finaly stop these nerf threads?
Just give us tierd dungeons with according rewards.
A single lesser bonding is included with Epic or Rare Companions in the Zen Store, and a few Epic or Rare Companions in Lockboxes include them as well. Sometimes a R8 Bondings stone can drop from a Lockbox pack, but it's can also be just as viable to get a Rank 8 Eldritch.
I'll admit it would be nice if we had a few new Runestones similar to what was done with enchantments when they introduced Salvage, Brutal and Demonic Enchantments. Still while those enhanced enchantments offered a similar buff to Bonding they didn't also add a second powerful benefit. :*
I have never asked for a Neff and this certainly is not that because the stones remain the same they function in the same manner. Just one less could be slotted to only into the first two slots.
Today many augments are limited in that manner as most have no more than two defense slots and others only one or none.
Perhaps if anything the one thing it highlights even if bondings don't change:
▪ A companion with 3 R12 bonding can provide almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all the boons combined.
I also noticed you completely avoided my suggestion that you re-run the dungeon but using your r11 bondings and a normal companion. You assert there's little gear difference between you and you say the main difference is he's upgraded artifacts, which is 120 points? Yeah that 30% of the IL difference between you, where's the other 70? You also say his artifacts are Legendary but you do not mention what rank - are they 100 or 139 because that's a variation of over 5,000 stat points.
You state he has a r7 Plaguefire but you avoid mentioning where he IS getting his IL from - especially as you say "The Control Wizard even had better gear than the HR with 150 head, 150 armor, 150 arms (survivor's wraps) and similar enchantments.". It's also odd that he'd have a r7 PF on a 3.2k character unless he's using a proper one elsewhere - which again is illogical as he has expensive enchantments on his companion and the ones on the character must be mostly rank 9-10 - but again, you only mention the one that justifies your position because going for a really dirt cheap WE on a character he's obviously geared and obviously understands HOW to gear is strange.
The reason I'm saying this is because you present 'evidence' in an extremely biased manner, leaving out facts that go against your position and using what's left as the sole logical factors in your conclusions.
You also work from the assumption that the DPS output of the CW and the HR are equal at the same progression stages and that you both have an equal understanding of your builds - i.e. all things apart from bondings are equal. That is a big assumption and usually wrong, but please provide some actual numbers.
Can you also state how you know he has done less than 50% of the boons?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Augments are cheap and are fine as a stepping stone to bigger and better things - bondings
Nerf this, nerf that . . . . . . it never ends
Augments are old and should be significantly worse than a companion with bondings, asking for them to be buffed or brought closer to bondings is like asking for M11 or M10 weapons to be nerfed so that M6 EE weapons are on par with the latest and greatest. It's bad form.
The simple facts are well quite simple:
▪ A fully gear geared companion with R12 enchantments & 3 R12 Bondings boosts the benefits by a factor of 3.
▪▪ In this case the companion gain's the benefit, while the player gains 3x the magnitude, possibly 3x extended to the party.
▪ An Augment does this at 100-115% or up to two R12 Eldritch by 12% each if it has two defense slots.
▪▪ Unlike the Augment which gets an either / or choice when using Eldritch, a companion gets both with Bonding.
▪▪ The Augments only role is that, and if a buff's is extended to a party, is far lower magnitude.
I'm sorry that you feel it is a nerf.
Still others have asked for more tiered Dungeons, so perhaps that if anything is where this could lead. I've suggested perhaps something similar but with a twist with a variation on something done in Castle Never. Has Cryptic ever tried to introduce a two tiered dungeon perhaps 2500 that pulls 2 (>3.3k players) with 3 (>2.5k players) where perhaps you start together but progress thru portions in groups of 2 or 3? We have portals some players go into during Castle Never, some together, others alone, that takes you into a skirmish floor, but those could even be Mini Dungeons, Crypts or Sewers and depending on the Color of Portal players decide which 2 or 3 players attempt it based on clues, symbols, or hints dropped in the dungeon. They could even change every run... I'd rather see something like this implemented if it could be done well.
Still it's hard to argue a companion with 3 R12 bondings stones provides:
▪ A powerful companion who benefits & extends a player almost 2.5x greater buffs (>35000) than all campaign boons combined.
Augments were never supposed to be in any sense comparable to a summoned companion with bonding runestones. They are cheaper - one even claimable on every new alt when you arrive in PE for the first time. They are meant to be inferior - that's just how things are.
I want things like (for example)
FBI (the version now)
Hard FBI (2x hp, enemys deal 30% more dmg,)
Very hard FBI( 4x HP, 2x dmg resist, 100% more dmg)
Impossible FBI (10x HP 4x dmg resist 200% more dmg, all enemys controll immune,...)
And so on.
On a fully geared player, a bonded companion represents appx 20% of a players stats. The fact that someone can move r12's to a new character and give them a buff that is high for their level is no different to a 2k character being in a GH20 guild and getting an extra 8k power & defence/lifesteal - or having 5 purple mounts available and kitting them out with purple insignias.
It distorts the perception of their IL until they get everything else closer to maxed. This of course is going to be fixed on the next update when companions, mounts and boons are added to item level.
Can I just reiterate the point that removing the bonding bonus from a BiS player will reduce their in-combat stats by appx 6.5% and will not have the impact you're saying it will.
Your arguments are without statistical validity and it's very notable that you continue to avoid addressing these points. It's also notable that now your original comparison has been shown to be completely invalid that you've tried to avoid it by saying " That example is but one of many you can find in a lot of dungeons runs" which again avoids giving any evidence to support your position.
Please stop talking in generalisations and deal with the detail because without that you may as well just post "please change bondings cos someone beat my CW and I thought it was unfair..."
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Things were a lot more fun way back when you would get unbound items that you could sell for a decent amount of AD, but right now, well...the sad fact is that a lot of the content is just not worth running - the reward/effort ratio is just too low.
This is particularly irritating in the case of something like mSP. I ran that yesterday for the first time and walked away with salvage worth maybe 8000 AD or so.
It's a good looking dungeon - it's great to see all the changes that have been made, but why, why would I want to ever run it again? Considering the effort, the reward just isn't there.
The same applies to your "hard" dungeons - sure, they could easily make harder versions (but then again, that was really already the idea behind having "normal" and "master" versions of the same content), but for even harder versions, you would want to see even better loot, and I just cannot see that happen without a policy change.
Also i would also ask to Bring back SCA stuff into the game as it will be unfair for new player that join this game after the shutdown of SCA.
"Legendary companion (with procs): ~27.3k
Stronghold Boons (exc utility & pvp): 16k
Other boons: tricky to add but say 9*4*400= 14.4k plus a bunch of situational effects giving somewhere in the region of 20k? So roughly 25k at any one time?"
So companion stats are slightly above campaign specific boons - about 10% and not the 250% you stated. Honestly, where are you pulling your figures from??
When you add SH boons they represent only 39% of added stats. When you add everything else (which you should do) they represent the previously stated 20% of total in-combat stats.
I will also repeat - why on earth are you running an augment and why are you using this as a baseline? The purpose of augments is to assist lower level players in the early stages of the game - they are not end-game BiS and you are misrepresenting them by treating them as the baseline against which all stats should be measured.
Edit: can I also ask what class your main character is - or is it the CW?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I agree companions should be slightly superior to augments, or as you've suggested augments slightly inferior.
It was simply a suggestion that perhaps bonding played a role. As a striker/controller/leader/defender companion is the only one that receives the full benefits of the buff to attack with, but then also uses it while also amplifying by a factor of up to 3x to the player. Whereas an augment only augments those abilities and does nothing with them itself, only to pass them on to the player. I've heard a few state my argument is flawed and perhaps maybe it is.
Still we agree on a few things like the power creep discussion in forums, and that augments were never designed to be superior to strikers, controllers, leaders or defender companions.
Typically the most an Augment companions provides is no more than 2 defense slots so their maximum augmentation benefit is between 100% - 139%; where other companions have 5 attack abilities yet extend augmentation up to 300% using the same buff's they attack with.
It had just seemed to be a plausible contributor... but as anyone knows there's many factors at play in this game.
I was simply suggesting an alternative. Perhaps not for every dungeon but perhaps one Epic Dungeon similar to the Illusionist Gambit that gradually increases difficulty and asks when your done. Or expanding what's done in Castle Never where people run into Portals some alone others together but doesn't have to be a small skirmish floor, could instead be a mini dungeons / crypts / sewers from within the dungeon that requires no more than 2 or 3 players complete but whom chooses what? It was just an idea to add a little more variety or dynamics as situations change based on the class and skills of each player. Nothing more nothing less. Well this is refreshing cause now we seeing some trying to use a little out of the box thinking... I don't how or if that could be implemented but it is never-the-less an original and very creative solution.
A companion is capable at most in of receiving 12777 in buff's given to the player at 300% or 38331.
So based upon the companions quality it's initial attacks before being buffed by any runestones, gear, or enchantments will start higher and gain a higher damage % increases for every 2500-3000 it's various given. One companion depending on their quality may get 10% another could be as high as 15% every time that value crosses that milestone. Now for Armor Pen every 1500 or so roughly works out to means 12-17% more Penetration and for Critical Strike every 2000 increases the chance by about 4-7%. These values vary slightly by the companions based upon their quality as well as their class and type.
Now lets assume a Legendary Striker Companion is equipped with all R12 Brutal's given +420 Power & +420 Critical which it has 6 of. It's also using in this particular case using 3 of the new Fierce +4 Companion gear providing +348 Power & +521 Critical along with the 3 R12 Bonding Stones giving 3 +840 boost to Power. In this scenario the companion receives 11,007 (6084 Power & 4923 Critical) not the possible maximum of 12,777 spoken of earlier as I'm trying to use a simple example with only two values to give a player to comprise the full buff of 33,021 (18252 Power & 14769 Critical) in this case.
For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin at 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents a 14% power boost. It roughly works with some variation works out to about 10% gain for every 4000 in power.
As for critical would be increased by 14769 increases the critical hit chance by over 30%. For each class it's slightly different but generally every 4k comes very close to about a 10% damage boost.
Now remember with bondings the companion gains the full benefit for their attacks which also show up in the players Damage calculation so were not only in this just evaluating 33,021 against your 21k (example) we also have to add what the companion benefits [33,021+11,007] so divide 44028/21k - oh heck lets even bump it up to 22k in case you were really low. Also unlike boons which can include a wide variety of benefits companions gear, runestones or enchantments in this case can be focused on just one or two offensive or defensive abilities. In this example their the two more desired offensive abilities that are going to boost damage by far the furthest. In this case even when I bumped up your own estimate twice the companion still provides 2x (2.00172) higher benefit over the campaign boons by your own estimate which I even increased twice over a mix of offensive, defensive, out of combat or even a unidentified chance of boons.
Now keep in mind that's not the highest which was [(12777)x3]+12777=51108/22k=2.32 times which is very close to my original 2.5x where I had not included Brynn or River into the total. No by no means am I saying the boons are highly valuable because they are, and over the course of the next year or two even more will be added. I was hoping to avoid much of this detail as I was simply trying to illustrate a point.
Lets take your 6084 power, bondings provide 2.85 and not x3 like you calculated. We get 17339 power. In terms of dps this will net a 24.803% increase and not 47%.
"we also have to add what the companion benefits [33,021+11,007] so divide 44028/21k"
What you added here? The companion damage has different functions, and is completely negligible, around 1% of the players total.
Upgrade augments to give ten times the stats at 20 times the current augment costs?
I was also very clear when I stated For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin with 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. A Cleric or Great Weapon Fighter with 35,500 power represents a 89% power boost again if you take 35,500/4000 for every 10% boost=8.875 or 89%. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents about a 14% power boost. Its only a minor variation by class but works out to about a 10% gain for every 4000 in power growth; so I respectfully disagree with your statement that only represents a 24% increase. 17339/4000=4.334 or each 4000 representing 10%(43%) power boost, or using the conditions I've clearly outlined a 46-47% damage bonus based upon example given.
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power
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