I have acknowledge countless times factually that bonding can provide up to 285% while the other 15% if from the Legendary Bonus. If I'm looking at something as I did to provide people an explanation in was clearly identified which runestones, gear, and even enchantments where loaded into a striker companion. I then showed the example as part of a total package so the value of 18252 power is correct in the context provided (people are smart enough to realize 15% of that comes from the Legendary Bonus) from the Legendary Striker Companion as I've been extremely clear in how I've explained it.
Don't start with Ad-hominem, your remarks if other people are smart enough or not are not appropriate. But just to for your benefit: Legendary companion provides the active bonus to an augment in the same exact way. Meaning is shouldn't be included in the comparison. Your inclusion is just an attempt to skew the data in the favor of your argument.
I was also very clear when I stated For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin with 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. A Cleric or Great Weapon Fighter with 35,500 power represents a 89% power boost again if you take 35,500/4000 for every 10% boost=8.875 or 89%. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents a 14% power boost. It is with minor variation by class about 10% gain for every 4000 in power growth so I respectfully disagree with your statement that 17339/4000= power only represents a 24% increase as it is indeed 43% in your example, or using the conditions I've clearly outlined a 46-47% damage bonus.
Anyone can easily validate these values themselves.
And I've clearly wrote Lets look at the power increase not when we are naked, but for someone that can afford rank 12 bondings. That means at least 30k power in resting mode.
I'm sure you do understand that 25k power is not 62% damage boost. It's only correct as over base, or in the single case when you started with 0. This is not correct in this case.
Because you are evidently smarter than me, just in case, I'll link you material instead of explaining:
You are again trying to skew, and misrepresent. Your naked lab HR is a bit different from the real HR using those bonding, by about 30k power. So don't try to fool people around. And don't play games.
I have acknowledge countless times factually that bonding can provide up to 285% while the other 15% if from the Legendary Bonus. If I'm looking at something as I did to provide people an explanation in was clearly identified which runestones, gear, and even enchantments where loaded into a striker companion. I then showed the example as part of a total package so the value of 18252 power is correct in the context provided (people are smart enough to realize 15% of that comes from the Legendary Bonus) from the Legendary Striker Companion as I've been extremely clear in how I've explained it.
Don't start with Ad-hominem, your remarks if other people are smart enough or not are not appropriate. But just to for your benefit: Legendary companion provides the active bonus to an augment in the same exact way. Meaning is shouldn't be included in the comparison. Your inclusion is just an attempt to skew the data in the favor of your argument.
I was also very clear when I stated For a Hunter Ranger at level 70 a boost (before any of his gear or enchantments or boons) are added or equipped a power boost of 18252 is about a 47% Damage boost. Whereas a Wizard or Paladin with 25,000 power represents about a 62% power boost. A Cleric or Great Weapon Fighter with 35,500 power represents a 89% power boost again if you take 35,500/4000 for every 10% boost=8.875 or 89%. Whereas a Paladin with a 5602 power boost represents a 14% power boost. It is with minor variation by class about 10% gain for every 4000 in power growth so I respectfully disagree with your statement that 17339/4000= power only represents a 24% increase as it is indeed 43% in your example, or using the conditions I've clearly outlined a 46-47% damage bonus.
Anyone can easily validate these values themselves.
And I've clearly wrote Lets look at the power increase not when we are naked, but for someone that can afford rank 12 bondings. That means at least 30k power in resting mode.
I'm sure you do understand that 25k power is not 62% damage boost. It's only correct as over base, or in the single case when you started with 0. This is not correct in this case.
Because you are evidently smarter than me, just in case, I'll link you material instead of explaining:
You are again trying to skew, and misrepresent. Your naked lab HR is a bit different from the real HR using those bonding, by about 30k power. So don't try to fool people around. And don't play games .
I'm not 'skewing or misrepresenting anything'. I've even verified those numbers and values using the very tool you yourself identified. I apologize if I at first replied to your message without quoting your message. You must realize we all have many different things were all working on sometimes while also reading or replying to the forums. As a result if you've misunderstood something then please send me a message.
Still it remains that power grows about 10% every 4000 power over it's base or Rank I, II, III or IV damage value depending how many power points you've invested into it. As I've stated 25,000 power is a 62% power boost, or equally a 35,500 is 89%. Plot those exact values using Janne's @ 25100 & 35400 and you'll still get 62.89% and 88.7% which is the tool you've provided and its almost identical to would I previously identified with the exception of a minor rounding error.
Let's assume going with the Example of an HR who's has base power of 17300 including all their 135-150 gear loaded with Rank 8 Enchantments equipped on their character with all Artifacts slotted and boons totally 17300. That would represent a 43.35% damage boost over what their character would receive if they were to take all their gear off and move it into the bank then RESPEC there character's so all boons buff were 0 except the investment they made in power points.
So a character prior to summoning their Legendary Striker Companion who had 3 R12 Bonding Stones, 3 sets of +4 Fierce Companion Gear, and loaded with 6 R12 Brutal Enchantments in the Legendary Companion. When the companion was summoned (we'll look only at power to keep it simple) it would boost the current 17,300 power on a Hunter Ranger by a further 18252 (after the companion starts his attacks in combat) for a grand total of = 35552.
This would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% to 89% which represents a further boost of almost 45%.65 or as I previously explained 18252/4000=4.563*10 (45.63) if you use the 4000 as a rought / quick & fast method to gauge how often you gain 10% power boost.
Now realize I did play a little closer attention to the power relationship. But Critical and Armor Pen work in a similar fashion. Still I appreciate the tool you shared it certainly is a Nice tool. I only hope many others find it as useful or perhaps as handy as I might, it's always good to have a few get reference materials to reference when needed.
So Thank You for Sharing that!
Post edited by strathkin on
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Still the facts remain unchanged it grows about 10% every 4000 power, or as I've stated 25,000 power is a 62% power boost, or equally a 35,500 is 89%. Plot those exact two points I've previously using Janne's @ 25100 & 35400 and you'll still get 62.89% and 88.7% which is almost not even really a rounding error.
And still facts remain unchanged that for an actual HR it will be 24% or so. And ignoring my posts that you so conveniently didn't quote now, or adding smiles wont change it.
Still the facts remain unchanged it grows about 10% every 4000 power, or as I've stated 25,000 power is a 62% power boost, or equally a 35,500 is 89%. Plot those exact two points I've previously using Janne's @ 25100 & 35400 and you'll still get 62.89% and 88.7% which is almost not even really a rounding error.
If i have 25100 power (62.89% dmg increase) and someone buffs me up to let's say 35400 power (88.7% increase) how much is my actual damage output increased?
(Note: I picked these two numbers because you had already agreed with the % values the correspond to. So bear with me for a second)
My incremental damage increase is not 88.7% obviously, since I had power to begin with (not comparing against 0).
And it's not the difference either: 88.7 - 62.89 = 25.72% That's not correct.
The formula for incremental damage would be ((New Damage) - (Old Damage)) / (Old Damage).
In this case since damage scales linearly with power, we can factor out everything except for the power contribution. So in this case we get:
(1.887 - 1.6289) / 1.6289 = 0.15845. Or like a 16% damage increase.
The point is that the more starting power you already have, the less every point of power helps you in terms of % increase in damage output. The "increases your damage by X%" tooltips are really confusing and misleading. Because you're NEVER measuring against a naked power-less character. And every 400 points of power doesn't give you a direct 1% increase in DPS, it's an additive 1% increase to the scalar component of the damage calculation that is dependent on power. Assuming you have some power to begin with, this will always be far less than a 1% increase to your DPS.
Edit: another mechanic that works similarly in this game is mount speed. Green / Blue / Purple / Orange gives increases of 50%/80%/110%/140% over base speed respectively.
So if I'm walking on foot and I summon my green mount, will I go 50% faster? Yes because (1.5 - 1)/1 = 50%. Great. (Side note: this is similar to your first 400 points of power giving you 1% damage increase).
Now I decide to upgrade my mount to blue. Does that mean if I upgrade from green to blue I'll go 30% faster because 80% - 50% = 30%? Nope. I'll go (1.8 - 1.5)/(1.5) = 20% faster compared with my green mount.
Now what if I upgrade again from blue to purple? Will I go 30% faster than my blue mount? Nope. I'll go (2.1 - 1.8)/(1.8) = 16.67% faster compared with my blue mount. Notice that the benefit is decreasing?
And then I sell my firstborn child and last scraps of dignity for an orange mount. How's that look? (2.4 - 2.1)/(2.1) = 14.29% compared with my purple mount. Wow did I really sell my child for less than 15% speed boost?
Let's assume going with the Example of an HR who's has base power of 17300 including all their 135-150 gear loaded with Rank 8 Enchantments equipped on their character with all Artifacts slotted and boons totally 17300. That would represent a 43.35% damage boost over what their character would receive if they were to take all their gear off and move it into the bank then RESPEC there character's so all boons buff were 0 except the investment they made in power points.
So a character prior to summoning their Legendary Striker Companion who had 3 R12 Bonding Stones, 3 sets of +4 Fierce Companion Gear, and loaded with 6 R12 Brutal Enchantments in the Legendary Companion. When the companion was summoned (we'll look only at power to keep it simple) it would boost the current 17,300 power on a Hunter Ranger by a further 18252 (after the companion starts his attacks in combat) for a grand total of = 35552.
This would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% to 89% which represents a further boost of almost 45%.65 or as I previously explained 18252/4000=4.563*10 (45.63) if you use the 4000 as a rought / quick & fast method to gauge how often you gain 10% power boost.
See my previous post for a full explanation (the 2nd half of my post where I use mount speed as an example might be particularly helpful), but the math you have here is a bit off.
At 17,300 your damage boost is 43.35%. At fully bonded 35,552 it's 89%. So what is the incremental effect to your damage output?
(1.89 - 1.4335) / (1.4335) = 0.3184, or let's call it 32% damage increase.
It's not correct to say your damage increase is 89% - 43.35% = 45%.
The higher your base power is, the less that 18,252 extra power will help you.
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
Just drop it, no point pursuing this anymore. Thread maker said his opinion, others said their opinions in comment. Everything should be clear at this point.
Just drop it, no point pursuing this anymore. Thread maker said his opinion, others said their opinions in comment. Everything should be clear at this point.
I think dupeks and me managed to clarify what was causing confusion, more than it ever was a disagreement between us. I believe all is good and people are against busy advancing their characters and working to help Neverember rebuild River District.
Poor Neverember... he's sacrificed so much for the people of P.E. Need to help him get back to helping him rebuild some of his riches that he's spend defending the City and River District itself. Have a good evening.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
No... The base Damage of 1000 is and must remain the benchmark which everything is evaluated against in this example.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for: 1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for: 1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for: 1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state: [(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is: [(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
I have another idea. Why not make bonding the entire opposite of augment. For example, augment give companion stat to player while bonding give player stat to companion. That will give companion a role to play rather than a buff bot for the player. But then, the entire game difficulty need to be reevaluate again.
I like the initial concept of the idea and a bit surprised that's not the way bonding stones were originally designed. That train has already left the station so it's a bit hard to do with the existing runestone; but I have spoken earlier that it be nice to see 1-3 new runestones introduced just as we've had the introduction of savage, brutal or demonic enchantments.
Perhaps this idea of yours could have some merit to possibly a new runestone but again it would need some rework to ensure players could only slot either a # of bonding stones or possibly this other not both at the same time. Still it would be nice to see 1-3 new runestones if not with this bonus with some other combinations.
The simple fact that you are disagreeing with thefabricant on in-game stats and how they work is enough to show how little you understand what you are talking about.
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2
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
No... The base Damage of 1000 is and must remain the benchmark which everything is evaluated against in this example.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for: 1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for: 1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for: 1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state: [(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is: [(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
I am currently at the damage boost of 43.35% and I want to know, is it better to use hallowed ground (the DC daily power, boosts damage by 40%, is multiplicative with base damage) or to have my power get boosted up to the 89% damage boost.
In the example of the 89% damage boost:
1890 damage.
In the example of Hallowed Ground:
1433.5*1.4=2006.9
In case you aren't aware, 2006.9 is greater than 1890. Power is not multiplicative with itself, you are not gaining a 45.9% damage increase, if you were, then hallowed ground would be worse than adding the power.
FYI, the next time you try to cite a source of information like Janne (@micky1p00 in this thread but whatever), please read the credits on the website and you might realize I may know what I am talking about.
This is just my perspective on bonding stones. They are the specifically BIS that players work towards. Augments are currently a great cheap alternative for new players or characters. On Xbox there are now lots of Goats for under 25k AD. Rank 9 runestones are very cheap at 20K AD. These augments are OP can take you for the levelling of your character until; 1)Buy R7/8 bondings depending on the market 2)Acquire VIP and receive companion boxes 3)Buy companion boxes straight from AH
I can remember when the Goats flooded the market from the locket thingies and i bought one for a new character with R9 runestones i had that were selling for pittance. Content became trivial and enemies died in droves up till Dread Ring content, where bondings became the next upgrade. As far as I remember there wasn't discussions of nerfing the augments (I may be wrong here...)
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
No... The base Damage of 1000 is and must remain the benchmark which everything is evaluated against in this example.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for: 1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for: 1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for: 1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state: [(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is: [(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
I'm not sure where to start...
I guess first: at the page you link there is a bottom part (In red):
3. This is not compound interest. Not even close. A simplification of compound interest in this context will be gaining 10% power per hit (after the hit). And hence for 1k base weapon damage, and 20k power we will have
Hit #1: 1000 * (1+ 20/40) = 1500. Hit #2: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.1/40) = 1550 Hit #3: 1000 * (1+ 22*1.1/40) = 1605 Hit #4: 1000 * (1+ 24.2*1.1/40) = 1665.5
At the forth hit, we did 3 times +10% but when comparing to simply adding 30% power, we see: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.3/40) = 1650
1665.5 / 1650 * 100 = 100.93 -> We earned via the compound interest 0.93% more than the bulk increase sum.
4. Percents are simple, they are simple fraction notation, but they have fundamental requirement: You must properly handle of what the percent is.
If we want to know the dps increase in %, we need to take our new value, divide by the old value (substract the 1, if we want increase) and multiply by 100. This is the basics. The same way if we have 5 apples and we added a new apple, how much our new apple wealth is as compared to the old in percent ? 6/5*100 = 120% And how much it as increase? 20% increase.
We can verify:
5 * 1.2 = 6
Lets assume that fabricant had 5 apples and got 1. We know that his apple wealth increased by 20%. But Janne had also 5 apples and got 4 more (this is the proper order of things).
Now lets see by how much Janne's wealth increased:
(9/5 - 1 ) * 100 = 80%, or we can say Janne's current wealth is 180% larger than the starting one.
Lets check by how much Janne richer than fabricant:
9/6 * 100 = 150%, meaning, fabricant will need to increase his current wealth by 50% to match Janne. Lets verify:
6 * 1.5 = 9 Now looks like this works, now lets check your idea:
[(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% translates to:
[9/5-1] - [6/5-1] = 80% - 20% = 60%
What those 60% signify ?
At each point, and each percent, we know what the percent signify, amount of X relative to amount Y. By subtracting and comparing the percents directly you lost the context and 'units of measurement'. This allows to answer who's percent higher, but we can't translate it back to apples realm.
It will also won't answer by how many percent Janne is richer, as you saw above, it's not 60%, but 50%.
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
FYI, the next time you try to cite a source of information like Janne (@micky1p00 in this thread but whatever), please read the credits on the website and you might realize I may know what I am talking about.
While this thread became out of proportion, in general, an argument should have value by it's own merit and not by the fame / infamy of it's provider.
And while credit is given freely and often deserved, this implies I can't do percents without your help.... I really hope this is not correct. Though I do use my fingers which is limiting to counting to 10 at winter. Not going to remove the socks from my toes just for math. Though if anyone want to help with my future calculation, please send:
This will allow twice as many digits !
4
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
FYI, the next time you try to cite a source of information like Janne (@micky1p00 in this thread but whatever), please read the credits on the website and you might realize I may know what I am talking about.
While this thread became out of proportion, in general, an argument should have value by it's own merit and not by the fame / infamy of it's provider.
And while credit is given freely and often deserved, this implies I can't do percents without your help.... I really hope this is not correct. Though I do use my fingers which is limiting to counting to 10 at winter. Not going to remove the socks from my toes just for math. Though if anyone want to help with my future calculation, please send:
This will allow twice as many digits !
@micky1p00 That was not what I meant at all janne and you know it, sorry for coming across that way
Also I do agree about an argument standing on it's own legs but really, when someone is citing your website Janne and isn't even reading the contents of it properly (missing the entire section on diminishing returns+ power to dps increase)... I am kind of at a loss as to why I am even arguing.
Also, I do believe you stole 3 of your apples from me, now, kindly return them.
Lets assume that fabricant had 5 apples and got 1. We know that his apple wealth increased by 20%. But Janne had also 5 apples and got 4 more (this is the proper order of things).
This just made my day.
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3
checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
for me, if i am reading the first post, this shouldn't be a nerf bondings post, this should be an "replace paingiver for something useful for Pc and Console Players" Post.
I could not read, how both (the Cw and the Hr) played, who deald as first damage and who benefits most on "paingiver"
So for an example an whole different story:
We did yesterday som Ad farm runs (2x Etos, 2x esot) most with guildies and @jaegernl with some of his chars. One of the runs was with my Alt Hr (2.9ilvl,normal Dread, 3x normal Bondings on an Shadowdemon) and an second Hr (near 4.3 ilvl, Trans Dread, 3x R12 Bondings on an Arenea Pet , she prefers that Pet for Styling things^^)
So, these very fine Lady has sometimes in the evening the issue, that her left hand hurt that much, she isn't able to change fast from ranged to melee Attacks and yesterday she wasn't also able to hold the pace/speed from the party. So she missed most from the first and second boss. Meanwhile i changed before the run started an mount bonus from wanderers fortune to gladiators guille, i was able to get the speed buff from the gf, i played very aggressive (i need that sometimes to get rid of the stress i had at work over the day).
So all these things led that when i am looking before we could get in to Syndrith that i was on Rank 1 on paingiver. She was only able to "outdps" me at the end, bc now she benefits also from all buffs/debuffs and her better gear and for sure better knowledge of her class, as i said i don't main an Hr, i like the aggressive playstyle from an Trapper Hr, but it is "just" an Alt and fun char for me.
So also for me it is time to replace these whole "paingiver", "who healt most", "who died most" or "who recieved most damage" things to something more useful espaiccelly for the consoleros boys/girls who are not able run things like Act.
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation. The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost. The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
No...
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
No... The base Damage of 1000 is and must remain the benchmark which everything is evaluated against in this example.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for: 1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for: 1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for: 1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state: [(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is: [(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
I'm not sure where to start...
I guess first: at the page you link there is a bottom part (In red):
3. This is not compound interest. Not even close. A simplification of compound interest in this context will be gaining 10% power per hit (after the hit). And hence for 1k base weapon damage, and 20k power we will have
Hit #1: 1000 * (1+ 20/40) = 1500. Hit #2: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.1/40) = 1550 Hit #3: 1000 * (1+ 22*1.1/40) = 1605 Hit #4: 1000 * (1+ 24.2*1.1/40) = 1665.5
At the forth hit, we did 3 times +10% but when comparing to simply adding 30% power, we see: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.3/40) = 1650
1665.5 / 1650 * 100 = 100.93 -> We earned via the compound interest 0.93% more than the bulk increase sum.
4. Percents are simple, they are simple fraction notation, but they have fundamental requirement: You must properly handle of what the percent is.
If we want to know the dps increase in %, we need to take our new value, divide by the old value (substract the 1, if we want increase) and multiply by 100. This is the basics. The same way if we have 5 apples and we added a new apple, how much our new apple wealth is as compared to the old in percent ? 6/5*100 = 120% And how much it as increase? 20% increase.
We can verify:
5 * 1.2 = 6
Lets assume that fabricant had 5 apples and got 1. We know that his apple wealth increased by 20%. But Janne had also 5 apples and got 4 more (this is the proper order of things).
Now lets see by how much Janne's wealth increased:
(9/5 - 1 ) * 100 = 80%, or we can say Janne's current wealth is 180% larger than the starting one.
Lets check by how much Janne richer than fabricant:
9/6 * 100 = 150%, meaning, fabricant will need to increase his current wealth by 50% to match Janne. Lets verify:
6 * 1.5 = 9 Now looks like this works, now lets check your idea:
[(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% translates to:
[9/5-1] - [6/5-1] = 80% - 20% = 60%
What those 60% signify ?
At each point, and each percent, we know what the percent signify, amount of X relative to amount Y. By subtracting and comparing the percents directly you lost the context and 'units of measurement'. This allows to answer who's percent higher, but we can't translate it back to apples realm.
It will also won't answer by how many percent Janne is richer, as you saw above, it's not 60%, but 50%.
Clearly you someone who like to over analyze things. And are missing or choosing to ignore the most most basic facts.
Anyone will realize as power grows further gains will represent a smaller increase if you comparing that to previously boosted damage buff from power when it was 20k, then 30k, then 50k, then 60k etc... But you're also not comparing it to base. Janne's identifies power grow is flat or as I've indicated it's grows 10% for 4000 power.
Using that simply fact 18500 power would be shown as a 45% boost over base. Just as 35000 power is a 89% boost. If this power is being added to an character that already has power or had none it will change how much power they gain over their previously power boost but it does not change how much power they gain to the base damage which is 10% boost for every 4000.
The fact that I've clearly 'touched' a nerve that has so many disagree is clear evidence many like the "OP" ness of bondings.
It's funny how people will say augments are not supposed to be powerful, yet are in denial when it comes to accepting many things about bondings:
▪ It's the only runestone that recieves a higher +840 power/defense along with an insane 95% augment boost. ▪ A companion with 3 boosts the players buff to 285%; while the companion attacks with 100% of the buff themselves.
That effectively gives the player an extremely powerful companion, or effectively like they had one companion and 3 augments summoned at the same time. These facts speak for themselves...
Comments
I'm sure you do understand that 25k power is not 62% damage boost. It's only correct as over base, or in the single case when you started with 0. This is not correct in this case.
Because you are evidently smarter than me, just in case, I'll link you material instead of explaining:
Read the relative increase here:
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/dr
And then use the graphs or calculators on the bottom here:
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power
You are again trying to skew, and misrepresent. Your naked lab HR is a bit different from the real HR using those bonding, by about 30k power. So don't try to fool people around. And don't play games.
I'm not 'skewing or misrepresenting anything'. I've even verified those numbers and values using the very tool you yourself identified. I apologize if I at first replied to your message without quoting your message. You must realize we all have many different things were all working on sometimes while also reading or replying to the forums. As a result if you've misunderstood something then please send me a message.
Still it remains that power grows about 10% every 4000 power over it's base or Rank I, II, III or IV damage value depending how many power points you've invested into it. As I've stated 25,000 power is a 62% power boost, or equally a 35,500 is 89%. Plot those exact values using Janne's @ 25100 & 35400 and you'll still get 62.89% and 88.7% which is the tool you've provided and its almost identical to would I previously identified with the exception of a minor rounding error.
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power
Let's assume going with the Example of an HR who's has base power of 17300 including all their 135-150 gear loaded with Rank 8 Enchantments equipped on their character with all Artifacts slotted and boons totally 17300. That would represent a 43.35% damage boost over what their character would receive if they were to take all their gear off and move it into the bank then RESPEC there character's so all boons buff were 0 except the investment they made in power points.
So a character prior to summoning their Legendary Striker Companion who had 3 R12 Bonding Stones, 3 sets of +4 Fierce Companion Gear, and loaded with 6 R12 Brutal Enchantments in the Legendary Companion. When the companion was summoned (we'll look only at power to keep it simple) it would boost the current 17,300 power on a Hunter Ranger by a further 18252 (after the companion starts his attacks in combat) for a grand total of = 35552.
This would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% to 89% which represents a further boost of almost 45%.65 or as I previously explained 18252/4000=4.563*10 (45.63) if you use the 4000 as a rought / quick & fast method to gauge how often you gain 10% power boost.
Now realize I did play a little closer attention to the power relationship. But Critical and Armor Pen work in a similar fashion. Still I appreciate the tool you shared it certainly is a Nice tool. I only hope many others find it as useful or perhaps as handy as I might, it's always good to have a few get reference materials to reference when needed.
So Thank You for Sharing that!
If i have 25100 power (62.89% dmg increase) and someone buffs me up to let's say 35400 power (88.7% increase) how much is my actual damage output increased?
(Note: I picked these two numbers because you had already agreed with the % values the correspond to. So bear with me for a second)
My incremental damage increase is not 88.7% obviously, since I had power to begin with (not comparing against 0).
And it's not the difference either: 88.7 - 62.89 = 25.72% That's not correct.
The formula for incremental damage would be ((New Damage) - (Old Damage)) / (Old Damage).
In this case since damage scales linearly with power, we can factor out everything except for the power contribution. So in this case we get:
(1.887 - 1.6289) / 1.6289 = 0.15845. Or like a 16% damage increase.
The point is that the more starting power you already have, the less every point of power helps you in terms of % increase in damage output. The "increases your damage by X%" tooltips are really confusing and misleading. Because you're NEVER measuring against a naked power-less character. And every 400 points of power doesn't give you a direct 1% increase in DPS, it's an additive 1% increase to the scalar component of the damage calculation that is dependent on power. Assuming you have some power to begin with, this will always be far less than a 1% increase to your DPS.
Edit: another mechanic that works similarly in this game is mount speed. Green / Blue / Purple / Orange gives increases of 50%/80%/110%/140% over base speed respectively.
So if I'm walking on foot and I summon my green mount, will I go 50% faster? Yes because (1.5 - 1)/1 = 50%. Great. (Side note: this is similar to your first 400 points of power giving you 1% damage increase).
Now I decide to upgrade my mount to blue. Does that mean if I upgrade from green to blue I'll go 30% faster because 80% - 50% = 30%? Nope. I'll go (1.8 - 1.5)/(1.5) = 20% faster compared with my green mount.
Now what if I upgrade again from blue to purple? Will I go 30% faster than my blue mount? Nope. I'll go (2.1 - 1.8)/(1.8) = 16.67% faster compared with my blue mount. Notice that the benefit is decreasing?
And then I sell my firstborn child and last scraps of dignity for an orange mount. How's that look? (2.4 - 2.1)/(2.1) = 14.29% compared with my purple mount. Wow did I really sell my child for less than 15% speed boost?
At 17,300 your damage boost is 43.35%. At fully bonded 35,552 it's 89%. So what is the incremental effect to your damage output?
(1.89 - 1.4335) / (1.4335) = 0.3184, or let's call it 32% damage increase.
It's not correct to say your damage increase is 89% - 43.35% = 45%.
The higher your base power is, the less that 18,252 extra power will help you.
I never said the damage increase is 89%. I stated it grew to 89%, from 43.35%, an increase of almost 45.65%. The same thing just said a different way.
You'll see in this quote this, "would effectively increase his damage boost from 43.35% (based upon the 17300 from his gear not the companion or bonding stones) to 89% (which represents a boost from bondings stones of 18252) or almost a 45.65% for a total power buff of 35552 (of which 18252 came from the companion).
Note:
Total power buff is what he had before and after augmentation.
The value 18252 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Power buff Boost.
The value 14769 is the Companions: Bonding, Gear & Enchantment Critical buff Boost which were excluded above.
Send me a PM if you still don't understand what is being said.
Poor Neverember... he's sacrificed so much for the people of P.E. Need to help him get back to helping him rebuild some of his riches that he's spend defending the City and River District itself. Have a good evening.
Lets say you hit for 1000 damage with no power.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
How much have you increased from 1433.5 to get to 1890?
1890/1433.5-1=0.31845134287
or a 31.8% increase.
You don't measure the absolute distance, you measure the relative distance.
With the damage boost of 43.35%, you hit for:
1000*1.4335=1433.5 Here you have no problem agreeing the base damage is 1000?
With the damage boost of 89% you hit for:
1000*1.89=1890
With the damage boost of 1.25% you hit for:
1000*2.25=2250
Changing the formula to incorrectly state:
[(1890/1433.5-1]=0.31845134287 it's using prior gain's from higher power to misrepresent the damage increase.
The correct method is:
[(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% gain over the base damage being 1000.
Perhaps you should read wiki's page on compound interest cause in this example power is the interest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest
"Compound interest is the addition of interest to the principal sum" which is what your trying to do or as they go on to say interest on interest. If you plot just the 18252 power boost from the companion as a raw value in Janne's you'd also get a 45% gain with that much power over the base.
http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/power
As I've said from the start every 4000 power represents about a 10% gain so 50000 power although Janne's uses a more complicated formulae of [1+(power/39908.4)] although they do state in the chart below: "We saw that power doesn't have diminishing returns, but when we are looking at our dps increase we must take into account the relative increase to our current power."
That however is an entirely different assessment as I've explained above. Cause just the raw power of [(18252/4000)*10]=45 as the 10 is a multiplier give that is how many times 4000 goes into it for the 10% buff. Or just plot 18252 in Janne's or look at what the character sheet of someone who has that power says and it also agree.
WHEN STAT GEEKS ARGUUUUUUUUE!
Perhaps this idea of yours could have some merit to possibly a new runestone but again it would need some rework to ensure players could only slot either a # of bonding stones or possibly this other not both at the same time. Still it would be nice to see 1-3 new runestones if not with this bonus with some other combinations.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
In the example of the 89% damage boost:
1890 damage.
In the example of Hallowed Ground:
1433.5*1.4=2006.9
In case you aren't aware, 2006.9 is greater than 1890. Power is not multiplicative with itself, you are not gaining a 45.9% damage increase, if you were, then hallowed ground would be worse than adding the power.
FYI, the next time you try to cite a source of information like Janne (@micky1p00 in this thread but whatever), please read the credits on the website and you might realize I may know what I am talking about.
1)Buy R7/8 bondings depending on the market
2)Acquire VIP and receive companion boxes
3)Buy companion boxes straight from AH
I can remember when the Goats flooded the market from the locket thingies and i bought one for a new character with R9 runestones i had that were selling for pittance. Content became trivial and enemies died in droves up till Dread Ring content, where bondings became the next upgrade. As far as I remember there wasn't discussions of nerfing the augments (I may be wrong here...)
I guess first: at the page you link there is a bottom part (In red):
It's there for a reason,
2. Read this: http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/dr
A whole bloody section about relative increase.
3. This is not compound interest. Not even close. A simplification of compound interest in this context will be gaining 10% power per hit (after the hit). And hence for 1k base weapon damage, and 20k power we will have
Hit #1: 1000 * (1+ 20/40) = 1500.
Hit #2: 1000 * (1+ 20*1.1/40) = 1550
Hit #3: 1000 * (1+ 22*1.1/40) = 1605
Hit #4: 1000 * (1+ 24.2*1.1/40) = 1665.5
At the forth hit, we did 3 times +10% but when comparing to simply adding 30% power, we see:
1000 * (1+ 20*1.3/40) = 1650
1665.5 / 1650 * 100 = 100.93 -> We earned via the compound interest 0.93% more than the bulk increase sum.
4. Percents are simple, they are simple fraction notation, but they have fundamental requirement: You must properly handle of what the percent is.
If we want to know the dps increase in %, we need to take our new value, divide by the old value (substract the 1, if we want increase) and multiply by 100. This is the basics.
The same way if we have 5 apples and we added a new apple, how much our new apple wealth is as compared to the old in percent ?
6/5*100 = 120%
And how much it as increase? 20% increase.
We can verify:
5 * 1.2 = 6
Lets assume that fabricant had 5 apples and got 1. We know that his apple wealth increased by 20%.
But Janne had also 5 apples and got 4 more (this is the proper order of things).
Now lets see by how much Janne's wealth increased:
(9/5 - 1 ) * 100 = 80%, or we can say Janne's current wealth is 180% larger than the starting one.
Lets check by how much Janne richer than fabricant:
9/6 * 100 = 150%, meaning, fabricant will need to increase his current wealth by 50% to match Janne.
Lets verify:
6 * 1.5 = 9
Now looks like this works, now lets check your idea:
[(1890/1000)-1] - [(1433.5/1000)-1] = 45.9% translates to:
[9/5-1] - [6/5-1] = 80% - 20% = 60%
What those 60% signify ?
At each point, and each percent, we know what the percent signify, amount of X relative to amount Y. By subtracting and comparing the percents directly you lost the context and 'units of measurement'. This allows to answer who's percent higher, but we can't translate it back to apples realm.
It will also won't answer by how many percent Janne is richer, as you saw above, it's not 60%, but 50%.
And while credit is given freely and often deserved, this implies I can't do percents without your help.... I really hope this is not correct. Though I do use my fingers which is limiting to counting to 10 at winter. Not going to remove the socks from my toes just for math. Though if anyone want to help with my future calculation, please send:
This will allow twice as many digits !
Also I do agree about an argument standing on it's own legs but really, when someone is citing your website Janne and isn't even reading the contents of it properly (missing the entire section on diminishing returns+ power to dps increase)... I am kind of at a loss as to why I am even arguing.
Also, I do believe you stole 3 of your apples from me, now, kindly return them.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
for me, if i am reading the first post, this shouldn't be a nerf bondings post, this should be an "replace paingiver for something useful for Pc and Console Players" Post.
I could not read, how both (the Cw and the Hr) played, who deald as first damage and who benefits most on "paingiver"
So for an example an whole different story:
We did yesterday som Ad farm runs (2x Etos, 2x esot) most with guildies and @jaegernl with some of his chars.
One of the runs was with my Alt Hr (2.9ilvl,normal Dread, 3x normal Bondings on an Shadowdemon) and an second Hr (near 4.3 ilvl, Trans Dread, 3x R12 Bondings on an Arenea Pet , she prefers that Pet for Styling things^^)
So, these very fine Lady has sometimes in the evening the issue, that her left hand hurt that much, she isn't able to change fast from ranged to melee Attacks and yesterday she wasn't also able to hold the pace/speed from the party.
So she missed most from the first and second boss.
Meanwhile i changed before the run started an mount bonus from wanderers fortune to gladiators guille, i was able to get the speed buff from the gf, i played very aggressive (i need that sometimes to get rid of the stress i had at work over the day).
So all these things led that when i am looking before we could get in to Syndrith that i was on Rank 1 on paingiver.
She was only able to "outdps" me at the end, bc now she benefits also from all buffs/debuffs and her better gear and for sure better knowledge of her class, as i said i don't main an Hr, i like the aggressive playstyle from an Trapper Hr, but it is "just" an Alt and fun char for me.
So also for me it is time to replace these whole "paingiver", "who healt most", "who died most" or "who recieved most damage" things to something more useful espaiccelly for the consoleros boys/girls who are not able run things like Act.
Anyone will realize as power grows further gains will represent a smaller increase if you comparing that to previously boosted damage buff from power when it was 20k, then 30k, then 50k, then 60k etc... But you're also not comparing it to base. Janne's identifies power grow is flat or as I've indicated it's grows 10% for 4000 power.
Using that simply fact 18500 power would be shown as a 45% boost over base. Just as 35000 power is a 89% boost. If this power is being added to an character that already has power or had none it will change how much power they gain over their previously power boost but it does not change how much power they gain to the base damage which is 10% boost for every 4000.
That is all I've ever said.
It's funny how people will say augments are not supposed to be powerful, yet are in denial when it comes to accepting many things about bondings:
▪ It's the only runestone that recieves a higher +840 power/defense along with an insane 95% augment boost.
▪ A companion with 3 boosts the players buff to 285%; while the companion attacks with 100% of the buff themselves.
That effectively gives the player an extremely powerful companion, or effectively like they had one companion and 3 augments summoned at the same time. These facts speak for themselves...
The 25 dc tia was back in mod 9. The reason (wol iirc) why u could stack power to infinity and beyond was fixed long time ago.