My "high end DC" got 38k+ power at 3.3 IL, and in case I get the artifacts up to level 139 , put some effort in my radiants and my mounts/Insignia, farm that Lifesilk spinnert, etc .... in the end at maxed eqip the basepower can get >50k. BoB is inconsitent some times, the companion rebuff also. But if you take BoB + AA together (both buff allies in range, no need to even be in your party) and provide a "minimum positioning" from your teammates, there is no discussion about AC being "worse" and TI being OP, like devlin and rapo allready pointed at. Both paragons are pretty strong. The far more signifiant disbalance lies between rightous and faithfull/virtous imo.
Indeed, the high-end concept is flexible. At 4.28K I usually have ~40k if I give up the Armpen stat of the stronghold boon. I also wanted a bit of crit and a good amount of recovery. I had to give up some power sources to do it. At the end I don't care too much if I need 15s more to complete a task.
to @dread4moor why no answer? what you think of palladins aura courage and aura gifts? if buffbots are problem we must not stop to clerics.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited March 2017
Divine Chains of Blazing Light with bonding procs, no AA, no TI on my dc:
Chains of Blazing Light with bonding procs, AA, no TI on my dc:
(The top 3 hits are the ones with AA)
Chains of Blazing Light with bonding procs, no AA and TI:
(The top 3 hits are the ones in question.)
You can easily check 11434.3/9528.6 = 1.2 (because you know, instead of wasting 1 minute getting inaccurate results you can test with 2 hits with fixed damage weapons but anyhow.)
The hit with AA however was:
14033.1/9528.6 = 1.47273471444
AA Alone was better in this case than TI.
I respecced all feats and boons for this test, was only checking with stats and powers at rank 4. Using the fixed damage weapons on preview. The 20% effectiveness is because my pet is a dancing shield.
So yeah, I call BS on, "TI is better than AA+BoB."
True, if you run with a DC who does nothing but stand around then DO is better than AC since 20% is better than 0%, but if they actually do something then it isn't the case.
Or if your dc is really slow, never catches up to the party and never hits them with AA then TI>AA.
Or, if your DC doesn't know how to keep AA up and has partial uptime then TI>AA.
However, if they can actually play well it isn't the case. You know, skill actually matters for something.
A good group will notice a slight clearspeed increase with DO+AC after these changes hit, but it is not massive. Of coarse, if your DC buffed 0% before and buffs 20% now because they were bad, the results are much better.
Maybe try 1 run with DO+AC where the DO has TI slotted, then another run with the same group where it isn't. That might be a better test.
A good group will notice a slight clearspeed increase with DO+AC after these changes hit, but it is not massive. Of coarse, if your DC buffed 0% before and buffs 20% now because they were bad, the results are much better. Maybe try 1 run with DO+AC where the DO has TI slotted, then another run with the same group where it isn't. That might be a better test.
In some circumstances, it may not be so slight when AC+DO are together in terms of absolute values while the % difference is always the same (with TI - without TI: it's an extreme case, but it happens sometimes). I tried to walk in the shoes of a dps. The table shows his perspective, capturing some elements (other things are not considered): I hope I didn't make mistakes and a test is necessary for sure. Unfortunately I play 2 hours in the evening, I've to decide if I want to play or if I want to test and usually I prefer to play Consider the table as a pure speculation and a bit redundant. It's interesting to note the difference with/without power share.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
This has been moved to the DC class forums.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
After reading all the post this is what I am hearing from the tester of this update to DO vs AC.
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K or higher in power and , at that point DC players can pick between AC or DO for their build. This means that a majority of DC that are out there should go to the DO path simply because TI buff is better than power sharing of the AC.
To me as a long time MMO player this will pigeonhole plenty of DC into the DO paragon that do not have 34K in power. That is not how a revamp should work. Players should be able to pick whichever one they want as long as both are fairly equal, but that does not seem the case with the current update.
Maybe the devs can do power sharing scaling for a AC to ensure that AC and DO are both viable regardless of a DC power.
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K.
Nope. 34k is the worst case. Probably I was not very clear about it and the formula is quite generic. So I try to consider a specific "use case". Let's assume that a GWF has 30k power and he has a companion with 3 offensive slots and rk 12 bondings. The companion has 6k power (a realistic number). The companion attacks and the GWF is buffed by 6000 x 2.85 = 17100 power. Now the GFW has 30000 + 17100 = 47100 power Let's assume that the GWF has also Protector's Camaraderie and he has now 4 active stacks = 47100 * 0.12 = 5652 more power. Overall the GWF has 52752 power = ~2.32x damage. TI applies and now the GWF has 2.32 * 1.2 = 2.784x damage
A power buffer who wants to provide the same effect, must buff (1+pow/40000) = 2.784 -> 71360 power. The difference is 71360 - 52752 = 18608 (because the GWF already has 52752 and the DC has to inject the difference to reach the target value 71360). There are many ways to do it (and the formula says nothing about it). Let's assume that the AC DC has BoB+FB+WoL+AA active (58% power share): 1) The DC buffs the player only and misses the companion. In this case the DC must have 18608/0.58 = 32k unbuffed power. This is the worst case and also the case of a player who doesn't have bondings (for example he has an augment). 2) The DC buffs the companion only. This buff goes to the bonding cycle, so the DC must share 18608/2.85 = 6529 power, i.e the DC must have 6529/0.58 = 11257 unbuffed power. So low. 3)The DC buffs both the player and the companion. Now the story is different because 18608 is split between the player and the companion: x (player) + 2.85x (companion) = 18608. So you need to buff 4833 , i.e. the DC must have 4833/0.58 = 8333 unbuffed power. Ridiculously low
In all 3 cases, Protector's Camaraderie is effected, so the power buff exceeds TI. This shows how important is the relative positioning of the team and probably it also explains a bit the test from @thefabricant At low IL, before chosing between AC or DO, you have to consider who are your team mates, their equipments, their companions and so on. When I suggest to go DO with a low IL DC, I assume he/she is pugging, playing with players at the same level, without bondings....... which is not always true. Sorry for the misunderstanding. There's also the case where you miss the AA buff, but you buff with BoB, or the opposite. There's a big grey area of "something in the middle". I'm old and now I've a haeadache with the hope I didn't make mistakes because they are my real specialization.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I did not follow that math. According to BoB + AA being a 48% powerbuff towards your groupmates i will spend 16,3k power to you and your companion at 34k power. If you assume your teammates wear augments or low level companions without bondings, TI will be the better choice. Last time I run content with 4 mates and "zero" bondings is loong ago, even casual player wear bondings at normal or greater level. A companion with 3 normal bondings spend about 16k power on top towards the owner if power shared from DC, now you are far better than TI. Following my experience in mSVA lately "the balls" do not disappear immidiately and most player are in buffrange... companions are another story and it is impossible to get all in range of AA/BoB ... but your Bob and your AA buff all allies (10) not only 5 teammates, so I buff the double ammount Following my experience in CN , elol, eSoT, eToS and some more, most of your group and companions are in range of BoB/AA. Casting AA in the beginning you do trigger a big buff towards the group.
Imo DO should be considered to be superior in case: 1.your group runs augments or 2. got companions with no bondings 3. is spread all over the map 4. likes red aoe zones 5. hates DC´s and tries to get at distance
Even there are a lot of new player to this game, the scrub factor is not that high to tell this is hte majority of NWO player.
One thing to add, DO is a 35+20% dps buff right from the start by casting HG, AC has to buff HG followed by AA so he is a bit slower from the start, DO puts PoD on the boss AA is delayed. In the end DO might win the race in a short lasting fight.
I did not follow that math. According to BoB + AA being a 48% powerbuff towards your groupmates i will spend 16,3k power to you and your companion at 34k power.
Imo it DO should be considered to be superior in case: 1.your group runs augments or 2. got companions with no bondings 3. is spread all over the map 4. likes red aoe zones 5. hates DC´s and tries to get at distance
It's a good list . But think about HR trappers going in and out or shy SW dreadthefting from the distance...
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I did not follow that math. According to BoB + AA being a 48% powerbuff towards your groupmates i will spend 16,3k power to you and your companion at 34k power.
Imo it DO should be considered to be superior in case: 1.your group runs augments or 2. got companions with no bondings 3. is spread all over the map 4. likes red aoe zones 5. hates DC´s and tries to get at distance
It's a good list . But think about HR trappers going in and out or shy SW dreadthefting from the distance...
While I think it's reasonable to assume an ACDC will have more base power to share then a DODC (and thus, will share more power through WoL), since both have access to WoL, and both will most likely select it, it's probably better to ignore that feat for the most part when comparing TI vs power sharing.
again??? only 3 days passed and you scream for a nerf
1) TI is not overpowered, INTF gives 30%, bear of sins 10%, condeming gaze 15%... i dont think 20% is game breaking. (i admit its no where near annonited action, but thats a diffrent stroy)
2) do not expect the dev to update a class every week. they update once a year or so. with this update we need to play for a long time. they will update dungeons and other classes in the future. DC was very strong at mod5 - and durring time it end up being weak. HR had update recently and you have to agree they are very strong - when other classes will get balance it will even ETOS was impossible when it came (literally impossible) - now i send my mules to do it anyway with this update we need to play in the future modes and it will be tough
3) more than one DC in party is crazy strong, the fastest runs i did were DC runs. (CN, tiamat, edemo) i doubt if 5 DC in PVP can be defeated 2DC with weapon of light and companions, buff the party by +80% power just by standing close (in your example its around 30k power) with AC BoB its +60% more power ofc you will do hits more than 1mil with that.
4) for the majority, runs are actualy harder now. i had several fails of MSVA and even FBI is not that easy (DO or AC) the contenet is not only for L20 guildies with on all R12 enchants. if you wana show DO is overpowerd --> please join a 2.8K GS party and lets see how fast you do CN.
*half of DC powers and feats are broken or usless, you should complain on those rather on the few that actually works
I did some mSVA. 80% of player allways pop their aoe in the raid, and this noobfactor has to be covered by the supporterclass, allways... If you time HG+AS+DG, press DC sigil when runes show up, maybe pop devine armor or AA on top,the moment he is calling and the OP puts his Sigil and casts (guess it´s shield of faith?), noone dies, nothing happens.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K or higher in power
ironically the number that was floating around pre-AC/DC becoming manadatory was 33K in the AA vs HG discussions. The GF using HG damage resistence to strengthen HG was the deciding factor then. Once they nerfed ITF and broke AA everyone went AC/DC now here we are a year later back to the same debate and logic
Yeah, let's say that it's an update of that logic given the latest changes.
@devlin#3775 We can consider the case where the DO has WoL, then you've to include some numbers, but the model is always the same. Let's assume the DO with WoL has 25k power, buffing 2500 (10%) both the player and the companion with bondings - best case. GWF 30000+(6000+2500)*2.85 (Wol companion) = 54225 + 2500 (WoL GWF) = 56725 + 6807 (Protector's Camaraderie) =63532 =2,5883 x 1.2 (TI) =3,10596 = 84238 power
Difference: 84238 - 63532 = 20706
AC DC power share cases to be better than TI (FB+WoL+AA - best case): Case 1- player only) The AC DC must have at least 35.7 k power Case 2 - companion only) The AC DC must have at least 12.5 k power Case 3 - player + companion) The AC DC must have at least 9.3k power
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
One more argument for DO. As far as I know, the AA power buff does not stack. So running solo with my DC, I have ca. 130k power with AA buff and the rest of my buffs active. With AC DCs, who have lower base power, the buff is much lower.
My DC has ~3.7k IL, but many DCs stacked recovery, so their power buff is worse then mine. So long story short, even in group content you might want to go DO, to participate on the synergy of AC/DO, if the other DCs you are grouped with tend to have higher power.
One more argument for DO. As far as I know, the AA power buff does not stack. So running solo with my DC, I have ca. 130k power with AA buff and the rest of my buffs active. With AC DCs, who have lower base power, the buff is much lower.
My DC has ~3.7k IL, but many DCs stacked recovery, so their power buff is worse then mine. So long story short, even in group content you might want to go DO, to participate on the synergy of AC/DO, if the other DCs you are grouped with tend to have higher power.
Even if you've more power to share but another DC has found a better position, he can reach a higher number of players /companions with bondings and his overall buff can be better than yours. In some circumstances, more AC DCs in the right places can overcome the short range of the power buff, extending the coverage: in mSVA check how many fire archons are often far away and not reached by AA if you play behind the boss. Or you may want to buff a strong ranged class covering the runes in that moment for whatever reason. There are many aspects to take into account beyond the power share potential. I don't know if TI is group bounded or not because it would be another element to take into account in >5 contents: where do you want the DO to go? The group where the AC DC has the highest power or the group where the AC DC knows how to manage the position? In any case AC + DO work very well together: that's sure.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K.
Nope. 34k is the worst case. Probably I was not very clear about it and the formula is quite generic. So I try to consider a specific "use case". Let's assume that a GWF has 30k power and he has a companion with 3 offensive slots and rk 12 bondings. The companion has 6k power (a realistic number). The companion attacks and the GWF is buffed by 6000 x 2.85 = 17100 power. Now the GFW has 30000 + 17100 = 47100 power Let's assume that the GWF has also Protector's Camaraderie and he has now 4 active stacks = 47100 * 0.12 = 5652 more power. Overall the GWF has 52752 power = ~2.32x damage. TI applies and now the GWF has 2.32 * 1.2 = 2.784x damage
A power buffer who wants to provide the same effect, must buff (1+pow/40000) = 2.784 -> 71360 power. The difference is 71360 - 52752 = 18608 (because the GWF already has 52752 and the DC have to inject the difference to reach the target value 71360). There are many ways to do it (and the formula says nothing about it). Let's assume that the AC DC has BoB+FB+WoL+AA active (58% power share): 1) The DC buffs the player only and misses the companion. In this case the DC must have 18608/0.58 = 32k unbuffed power. This is the worst case and also the case of a player who doesn't have bondings (for example he has an augment). 2) The DC buffs the companion only. This buff goes to the bonding cycle, so the DC must share 18608/2.85 = 6529 power, i.e the DC must have 6529/0.58 = 11257 unbuffed power. So low. 3)The DC buffs both the player and the companion. Now the story is different because 18608 is split between the player and the companion: x (player) + 2.85x (companion) = 18608. So you need to buff 4833 , i.e. the DC must have 4833/0.58 = 8333 unbuffed power. Ridiculously low
In all 3 cases, Protector's Camaraderie is effected, so the power buff exceeds TI. This shows how important is the relative positioning of the team and probably it also explains a bit the test from @thefabricant At low IL, before chosing between AC or DO, you have to consider who are your team mates, their equipments, their companions and so on. When I suggest to go DO with a low IL DC, I assume he/she is pugging, playing with players at the same level, without bondings....... which is not always true. Sorry for the misunderstanding. There's also the case where you miss the AA buff, but you buff with BoB, or the opposite. There's a big grey area of "something in the middle". I'm old and now I've a haeadache with the hope I didn't make mistakes because they are my real specializa@@thefabricant
Thanks for clarifying the power sharing on AC.
Given the change to AA and it now having a cool down, it would seem that AC and DO are fairly close now for gr@thefabricant
How about soloing; is the AC now better thanks to the increase in damage? How does DO vs AC compare when soloing dungeons in campaigns?
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K.
Nope. 34k is the worst case. Probably I was not very clear about it and the formula is quite generic. So I try to consider a specific "use case". Let's assume that a GWF has 30k power and he has a companion with 3 offensive slots and rk 12 bondings. The companion has 6k power (a realistic number). The companion attacks and the GWF is buffed by 6000 x 2.85 = 17100 power. Now the GFW has 30000 + 17100 = 47100 power Let's assume that the GWF has also Protector's Camaraderie and he has now 4 active stacks = 47100 * 0.12 = 5652 more power. Overall the GWF has 52752 power = ~2.32x damage. TI applies and now the GWF has 2.32 * 1.2 = 2.784x damage
A power buffer who wants to provide the same effect, must buff (1+pow/40000) = 2.784 -> 71360 power. The difference is 71360 - 52752 = 18608 (because the GWF already has 52752 and the DC have to inject the difference to reach the target value 71360). There are many ways to do it (and the formula says nothing about it). Let's assume that the AC DC has BoB+FB+WoL+AA active (58% power share): 1) The DC buffs the player only and misses the companion. In this case the DC must have 18608/0.58 = 32k unbuffed power. This is the worst case and also the case of a player who doesn't have bondings (for example he has an augment). 2) The DC buffs the companion only. This buff goes to the bonding cycle, so the DC must share 18608/2.85 = 6529 power, i.e the DC must have 6529/0.58 = 11257 unbuffed power. So low. 3)The DC buffs both the player and the companion. Now the story is different because 18608 is split between the player and the companion: x (player) + 2.85x (companion) = 18608. So you need to buff 4833 , i.e. the DC must have 4833/0.58 = 8333 unbuffed power. Ridiculously low
In all 3 cases, Protector's Camaraderie is effected, so the power buff exceeds TI. This shows how important is the relative positioning of the team and probably it also explains a bit the test from @thefabricant At low IL, before chosing between AC or DO, you have to consider who are your team mates, their equipments, their companions and so on. When I suggest to go DO with a low IL DC, I assume he/she is pugging, playing with players at the same level, without bondings....... which is not always true. Sorry for the misunderstanding. There's also the case where you miss the AA buff, but you buff with BoB, or the opposite. There's a big grey area of "something in the middle". I'm old and now I've a haeadache with the hope I didn't make mistakes because they are my real specialization.
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K or higher in power
ironically the number that was floating around pre-AC/DC becoming manadatory was 33K in the AA vs HG discussions. The GF using HG damage resistence to strengthen HG was the deciding factor then. Once they nerfed ITF and broke AA everyone went AC/DC now here we are a year later back to the same debate and logic
I do remember reading that back in July time frame right before the game was launched on PS4. I was trying to get my head around the DO and AC paths prior to playing and played DO until I hit 70 and than went AC right after that. I like both paths and simply would like to ensure that based on my stats I can provide the group the best buff from my DC.
I guess I will have to wait and see. For now I will continue to be a AC.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Bonding permanent uptime ( chance to proc chance to proc chance to proc chance to proc) is not cheese;p
Bondings proc on PC at exactly 285%? With SoMI update on Xbox, they range from 291 to 357 (possibly bigger variance, but those are my personal h/l)
Last time I checked (a while ago), yes exactly at 285% (+15% if you have orange pet for a grand total of 300% max stat transfer).
How are you testing this? Since bondings use buffed pet stats that are not listed on the character sheet (including any auras etc.) are you sure you're not picking up extra stats because of a closeby power sharer?
0 rising or sudden ring, no additional procs. Just attack a dummy or any enemies and check ur stats occasionally. It seems to pick a number on that spectrum, and then never go lower than that....only upwards. There a way to add screenshots? It's easiest to look at ur armor pen stat, as nothing should fluctuate that
No one tried it yet? It's like a 3 minute test lol
It's not a 3min test lol.
The stones are working as indicated, but I believe that not all of the companion's stats are shown as increased on the sheets.
Here is the test I did. Used a common Damarian Shepherd rank 20. At that rank he has Sheet Power, Crit, and ArPen equal to 130 each.
I slotted 0, 1, 2, or 3 Rank 12 bondings in the pet and used Astral Seal to initiate combat. After I proc'd, I would record my own stats. I tried as best I could to get naked (removed gear, idled other pets, swapped to empty stable, transmute wep with no power)
Condition
Power
Crit
ArPen
Naked
1134
1598
0
1 Bonding Proc
2067
1733
135
2 Bonding Procs
3375
1868
270
3 Bonding Procs
4496
2003
406
It's easiest to see looking at the ArPen as you suggested (power is hard since I have weps of light and didn't feel like respeccing). Crit is pretty consistent too, deviating only at 3 bonding stones (405 vs. 406). There's always always issues with rounding (and this game rounds weird).
So if you see 1 stone gave 135 stats. This is a problem because the pet has only 130 ArPen. But if you remember that he has "Expert Striker" which grants 10% more offensive stats and isn't reflected on the sheet, it makes sense.
135 * 1.1 = 143 and 143 * .95 is 135.85. So that's a hair over what we expected, but we're working with rounded numbers here so it's possible that the pet was only 129.5 stats or some of my measurements were rounded down on the stats sheet. Either way, not a huge error.
And it was consistent. Very consistent.
Now I didn't equip any equipment on the pet or myself other than the bonding stones. If you are saying I need to test with specific equipment say so and I can follow up in a day or two.
Edit: fixed a couple typos Edit 2: power is complicated because of weps of light and also damarian shep has 1 offense slot, which I slotted first because I am a sillyhat (I should have slotted it last hehe)
Well the swings on consol are absurd, it would have just been a 3 minute test to look for 100 point swings in arp. Ok cool, so maybe this problem gets fixed today for us? Pretty hard to min max when ur crit can be up or down like 10%, and arp a few %.
Thanks for testing
EDIT: I only did the tests on a legendary fire archon, and legendary con artist. A bunch of other people verified it as well, but again....all were using legendary strikers. So...might be something related to the 15% bonus
Well the swings on consol are absurd, it would have just been a 3 minute test to look for 100 point swings in arp. Ok cool, so maybe this problem gets fixed today for us? Pretty hard to min max when ur crit can be up or down like 10%, and arp a few %.
Thanks for testing
EDIT: I only did the tests on a legendary fire archon, and legendary con artist. A bunch of other people verified it as well, but again....all were using legendary strikers. So...might be something related to the 15% bonus
Can I ask how you tested? I'm curious if you're picking up some other interaction that's causing stats to fluctuate. The legendary bonus definitely can (it used to at times drop off or double stack momentarily), but it could also be something else...
Like I said I don't recall there ever being a period of time after they changed bondings from multi-stacks to a single stack when they did not work as described. I suppose it's possible that this was a console-only bug, but those are quite uncommon... Then again if the bug was beneficial then its not as likely to have been reported...
Comments
BoB is inconsitent some times, the companion rebuff also. But if you take BoB + AA together (both buff allies in range, no need to even be in your party) and provide a "minimum positioning" from your teammates, there is no discussion about AC being "worse" and TI being OP, like devlin and rapo allready pointed at.
Both paragons are pretty strong.
The far more signifiant disbalance lies between rightous and faithfull/virtous imo.
At the end I don't care too much if I need 15s more to complete a task. This is a sad truth.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Chains of Blazing Light with bonding procs, AA, no TI on my dc:
(The top 3 hits are the ones with AA)
Chains of Blazing Light with bonding procs, no AA and TI:
(The top 3 hits are the ones in question.)
You can easily check 11434.3/9528.6 = 1.2 (because you know, instead of wasting 1 minute getting inaccurate results you can test with 2 hits with fixed damage weapons but anyhow.)
The hit with AA however was:
14033.1/9528.6 = 1.47273471444
AA Alone was better in this case than TI.
I respecced all feats and boons for this test, was only checking with stats and powers at rank 4. Using the fixed damage weapons on preview. The 20% effectiveness is because my pet is a dancing shield.
So yeah, I call BS on, "TI is better than AA+BoB."
True, if you run with a DC who does nothing but stand around then DO is better than AC since 20% is better than 0%, but if they actually do something then it isn't the case.
Or if your dc is really slow, never catches up to the party and never hits them with AA then TI>AA.
Or, if your DC doesn't know how to keep AA up and has partial uptime then TI>AA.
However, if they can actually play well it isn't the case. You know, skill actually matters for something.
A good group will notice a slight clearspeed increase with DO+AC after these changes hit, but it is not massive. Of coarse, if your DC buffed 0% before and buffs 20% now because they were bad, the results are much better.
Maybe try 1 run with DO+AC where the DO has TI slotted, then another run with the same group where it isn't. That might be a better test.
I tried to walk in the shoes of a dps. The table shows his perspective, capturing some elements (other things are not considered): I hope I didn't make mistakes and a test is necessary for sure. Unfortunately I play 2 hours in the evening, I've to decide if I want to play or if I want to test and usually I prefer to play
It's interesting to note the difference with/without power share.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
DO DC is recommend to DC until you can hit roughly 34K or higher in power and , at that point DC players can pick between AC or DO for their build. This means that a majority of DC that are out there should go to the DO path simply because TI buff is better than power sharing of the AC.
To me as a long time MMO player this will pigeonhole plenty of DC into the DO paragon that do not have 34K in power. That is not how a revamp should work. Players should be able to pick whichever one they want as long as both are fairly equal, but that does not seem the case with the current update.
Maybe the devs can do power sharing scaling for a AC to ensure that AC and DO are both viable regardless of a DC power.
Probably I was not very clear about it and the formula is quite generic. So I try to consider a specific "use case".
Let's assume that a GWF has 30k power and he has a companion with 3 offensive slots and rk 12 bondings.
The companion has 6k power (a realistic number).
The companion attacks and the GWF is buffed by 6000 x 2.85 = 17100 power.
Now the GFW has 30000 + 17100 = 47100 power
Let's assume that the GWF has also Protector's Camaraderie and he has now 4 active stacks = 47100 * 0.12 = 5652 more power.
Overall the GWF has 52752 power = ~2.32x damage.
TI applies and now the GWF has 2.32 * 1.2 = 2.784x damage
A power buffer who wants to provide the same effect, must buff (1+pow/40000) = 2.784 -> 71360 power.
The difference is 71360 - 52752 = 18608 (because the GWF already has 52752 and the DC has to inject the difference to reach the target value 71360).
There are many ways to do it (and the formula says nothing about it).
Let's assume that the AC DC has BoB+FB+WoL+AA active (58% power share):
1) The DC buffs the player only and misses the companion. In this case the DC must have 18608/0.58 = 32k unbuffed power. This is the worst case and also the case of a player who doesn't have bondings (for example he has an augment).
2) The DC buffs the companion only. This buff goes to the bonding cycle, so the DC must share 18608/2.85 = 6529 power, i.e the DC must have 6529/0.58 = 11257 unbuffed power. So low.
3)The DC buffs both the player and the companion. Now the story is different because 18608 is split between the player and the companion: x (player) + 2.85x (companion) = 18608. So you need to buff 4833 , i.e. the DC must have 4833/0.58 = 8333 unbuffed power. Ridiculously low
In all 3 cases, Protector's Camaraderie is effected, so the power buff exceeds TI.
This shows how important is the relative positioning of the team and probably it also explains a bit the test from @thefabricant
At low IL, before chosing between AC or DO, you have to consider who are your team mates, their equipments, their companions and so on. When I suggest to go DO with a low IL DC, I assume he/she is pugging, playing with players at the same level, without bondings....... which is not always true. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
There's also the case where you miss the AA buff, but you buff with BoB, or the opposite. There's a big grey area of "something in the middle".
I'm old and now I've a haeadache with the hope I didn't make mistakes because they are my real specialization.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
According to BoB + AA being a 48% powerbuff towards your groupmates i will spend 16,3k power to you and your companion at 34k power.
If you assume your teammates wear augments or low level companions without bondings, TI will be the better choice. Last time I run content with 4 mates and "zero" bondings is loong ago, even casual player wear bondings at normal or greater level.
A companion with 3 normal bondings spend about 16k power on top towards the owner if power shared from DC, now you are far better than TI.
Following my experience in mSVA lately "the balls" do not disappear immidiately and most player are in buffrange... companions are another story and it is impossible to get all in range of AA/BoB ... but your Bob and your AA buff all allies (10) not only 5 teammates, so I buff the double ammount
Following my experience in CN , elol, eSoT, eToS and some more, most of your group and companions are in range of BoB/AA. Casting AA in the beginning you do trigger a big buff towards the group.
Imo DO should be considered to be superior in case:
1.your group runs augments or
2. got companions with no bondings
3. is spread all over the map
4. likes red aoe zones
5. hates DC´s and tries to get at distance
Even there are a lot of new player to this game, the scrub factor is not that high to tell this is hte majority of NWO player.
One thing to add, DO is a 35+20% dps buff right from the start by casting HG, AC has to buff HG followed by AA so he is a bit slower from the start, DO puts PoD on the boss AA is delayed.
In the end DO might win the race in a short lasting fight.
But think about HR trappers going in and out or shy SW dreadthefting from the distance...
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
only 3 days passed and you scream for a nerf
1) TI is not overpowered, INTF gives 30%, bear of sins 10%, condeming gaze 15%... i dont think 20% is game breaking. (i admit its no where near annonited action, but thats a diffrent stroy)
2) do not expect the dev to update a class every week. they update once a year or so. with this update we need to play for a long time.
they will update dungeons and other classes in the future.
DC was very strong at mod5 - and durring time it end up being weak.
HR had update recently and you have to agree they are very strong - when other classes will get balance it will even
ETOS was impossible when it came (literally impossible) - now i send my mules to do it
anyway with this update we need to play in the future modes and it will be tough
3) more than one DC in party is crazy strong, the fastest runs i did were DC runs. (CN, tiamat, edemo)
i doubt if 5 DC in PVP can be defeated
2DC with weapon of light and companions, buff the party by +80% power just by standing close (in your example its around 30k power)
with AC BoB its +60% more power
ofc you will do hits more than 1mil with that.
4) for the majority, runs are actualy harder now. i had several fails of MSVA and even FBI is not that easy (DO or AC)
the contenet is not only for L20 guildies with on all R12 enchants.
if you wana show DO is overpowerd --> please join a 2.8K GS party and lets see how fast you do CN.
*half of DC powers and feats are broken or usless, you should complain on those rather on the few that actually works
If you time HG+AS+DG, press DC sigil when runes show up, maybe pop devine armor or AA on top,the moment he is calling and the OP puts his Sigil and casts (guess it´s shield of faith?), noone dies, nothing happens.
@devlin#3775 We can consider the case where the DO has WoL, then you've to include some numbers, but the model is always the same.
Let's assume the DO with WoL has 25k power, buffing 2500 (10%) both the player and the companion with bondings - best case.
GWF 30000+(6000+2500)*2.85 (Wol companion) = 54225 + 2500 (WoL GWF) = 56725 + 6807 (Protector's Camaraderie) =63532 =2,5883 x 1.2 (TI) =3,10596 = 84238 power
Difference: 84238 - 63532 = 20706
AC DC power share cases to be better than TI (FB+WoL+AA - best case):
Case 1- player only) The AC DC must have at least 35.7 k power
Case 2 - companion only) The AC DC must have at least 12.5 k power
Case 3 - player + companion) The AC DC must have at least 9.3k power
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
My DC has ~3.7k IL, but many DCs stacked recovery, so their power buff is worse then mine. So long story short, even in group content you might want to go DO, to participate on the synergy of AC/DO, if the other DCs you are grouped with tend to have higher power.
In some circumstances, more AC DCs in the right places can overcome the short range of the power buff, extending the coverage: in mSVA check how many fire archons are often far away and not reached by AA if you play behind the boss. Or you may want to buff a strong ranged class covering the runes in that moment for whatever reason.
There are many aspects to take into account beyond the power share potential.
I don't know if TI is group bounded or not because it would be another element to take into account in >5 contents: where do you want the DO to go? The group where the AC DC has the highest power or the group where the AC DC knows how to manage the position?
In any case AC + DO work very well together: that's sure.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Given the change to AA and it now having a cool down, it would seem that AC and DO are fairly close now for gr@thefabricant
How about soloing; is the AC now better thanks to the increase in damage? How does DO vs AC compare when soloing dungeons in campaigns?
I guess I will have to wait and see. For now I will continue to be a AC.
How are you testing this? Since bondings use buffed pet stats that are not listed on the character sheet (including any auras etc.) are you sure you're not picking up extra stats because of a closeby power sharer?
The stones are working as indicated, but I believe that not all of the companion's stats are shown as increased on the sheets.
Here is the test I did. Used a common Damarian Shepherd rank 20. At that rank he has Sheet Power, Crit, and ArPen equal to 130 each.
I slotted 0, 1, 2, or 3 Rank 12 bondings in the pet and used Astral Seal to initiate combat. After I proc'd, I would record my own stats. I tried as best I could to get naked (removed gear, idled other pets, swapped to empty stable, transmute wep with no power)
It's easiest to see looking at the ArPen as you suggested (power is hard since I have weps of light and didn't feel like respeccing). Crit is pretty consistent too, deviating only at 3 bonding stones (405 vs. 406). There's always always issues with rounding (and this game rounds weird).
So if you see 1 stone gave 135 stats. This is a problem because the pet has only 130 ArPen. But if you remember that he has "Expert Striker" which grants 10% more offensive stats and isn't reflected on the sheet, it makes sense.
135 * 1.1 = 143 and 143 * .95 is 135.85. So that's a hair over what we expected, but we're working with rounded numbers here so it's possible that the pet was only 129.5 stats or some of my measurements were rounded down on the stats sheet. Either way, not a huge error.
And it was consistent. Very consistent.
Now I didn't equip any equipment on the pet or myself other than the bonding stones. If you are saying I need to test with specific equipment say so and I can follow up in a day or two.
Edit: fixed a couple typos
Edit 2: power is complicated because of weps of light and also damarian shep has 1 offense slot, which I slotted first because I am a sillyhat (I should have slotted it last hehe)
Thanks for testing
EDIT: I only did the tests on a legendary fire archon, and legendary con artist. A bunch of other people verified it as well, but again....all were using legendary strikers. So...might be something related to the 15% bonus
Like I said I don't recall there ever being a period of time after they changed bondings from multi-stacks to a single stack when they did not work as described. I suppose it's possible that this was a console-only bug, but those are quite uncommon... Then again if the bug was beneficial then its not as likely to have been reported...