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Terrifying Insight: Who moved my cheese?
dread4moor
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
Just ran eSoT, eToS, eVT and eLoL with three DPS and two DCs:
One Virtuous AC (Kali Gold) and my RiDO.
The results... HILARIOUS. Mobs melting like butter. 30 second boss fights.
Our TR never had a lashing with less the 900k damage.
Will post ACT and screenshots to corroborate., but see Kali's video for yourself.
In order to remove the AA cheese we moved it to Terrifying Insight cheese.
Discuss among yourselves.
Edit: Correction. Lashing range was 200k min 900k max. The hyperbole is strong with this one.
One Virtuous AC (Kali Gold) and my RiDO.
The results... HILARIOUS. Mobs melting like butter. 30 second boss fights.
Our TR never had a lashing with less the 900k damage.
Will post ACT and screenshots to corroborate., but see Kali's video for yourself.
In order to remove the AA cheese we moved it to Terrifying Insight cheese.
Discuss among yourselves.
Edit: Correction. Lashing range was 200k min 900k max. The hyperbole is strong with this one.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Post edited by dread4moor on
3
Comments
who run in buffer groups (2 dc's!) want less buffs...
why did you gear up so excessively?
how representative do you think a 2 dc group is, when PUG's always have one dc at max?
take off some of your stuff and let smaller dc's/groups be!
btw: it was clear from the last twitch stream, how it is impossible to always design for the BIS edge...
how neverwinter is being designed just to play it...
It shouldn't have been a passive buff, such a bad idea. It should have been just the normal mechanic, but each hit on something makes it take slightly more damage.
"it's funny how top geared people
who run in buffer groups (2 dc's!) want less buffs..."
Wrong. My RiDO is my third alt, is not BiS/"top geared".
Wrong. No one here wants less buffs. I've played 3 buff/support toons for 3 1/2 years, son.
The problem is the implementation of DC buff "balancing".
Terrifying Insight should not be purely passive application of 20% damage boost.
DO can just stand there with hands in pockets and give more party damage boost then AA and BoB combined. The OP buff shifted paragons.
"why did you gear up so excessively "
This was not a controlled scientific study. A handful of us were the first to log on so we dove right in with a combo. Never claimed case-control or statistical significance. We'll get to it eventually.
"how representative do you think a 2 dc group is, when PUG's always have one dc at max?"
First, as I said, not representing anything. Testing synergies under the new updates.
And serious players do not PUG unless they are desperate. Always run in premade or LFG. Premades u can structure any way you like. It's called innovation, bro.
"take off some of your stuff and let smaller dc's/groups be!"
No idea what that means. I earned my gear over >3rs hard work, thank you.
"btw: it was clear from the last twitch stream, how it is impossible to always design for the BiS."
No idea. I'm not BiS. We are testing encounter and daily powers, not gear.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
father, no doubt you are the better and more serious player!
and that's what it was about...
there are worse players than you, like me... in this beautiful game
and we normally have no more than 1 dc in our groups, and we even PUG!
(which makes it all quite a bit more difficult than in the experience with Kali Gold -- i like his videos! -- you describe)
Queue made PUGs get 1 healer, DC or OPD. LFG struggles to find 1 healer or runs without. People beat the content with what they have. Optimized groups are exception not the rule.
That pisses me off. The hellbringer class feature is a crappy debuff. Why are classes so backwards in this game?!
All things considered, the party damage boost from Terrifying Insight is just too good to pass up as a DC. It's like having the power boost from AA going all the time. The only downside is it only seems to work for party members and it lacks the damage immunity of AA.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
I agree with @dread4moor the results are somewhat hilarious. It's not as if running with 2 DCs wasn't always cheesy, but with the DO buff differentiation now it's very silly.
I needed to tweak my build a little with chains AP generation going out of the window, but my AC virt is still very much viable and dropping HG+AA while DO buffbot adds TI etc. results in cheese. Nothing new here, move along.
I do NOT endorse cheese runs. I hate them in fact. You missed the sardonic point of this post.
We show things that are far more powerful then WAI in hopes that the devs will avoid drastic changes in the future.
I love my RiDO, glad I can solo without difficulty. But I do not want to be a buffbot.
As for two DC combos? Testing synergies is not an El33t snobbish thing at all.
It's how we learn to master the game mechanics. I doubt I will run AC+DO regularly. But I learned a lot about how these new powers work by doing so.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
It's a hey I want attention post, with nothing to look at. Great job. Why bother.
we have had 5 mods of updates..
you cant do that..
you simply cannot.
t2s are just farming material right now.. its not meant to be anything else..
@sh00termcl0vin , correct.
Here is a simple ACT demonstration of the boost.
GWF vs dummy x 1 min without TI:
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS DPS AVERAGE RESIST HITS CRIT% EFFECTIVENESS
Outgoing Damage 3,214,028 51,260.41 58,864.98 16,915.94 All 190 39% 123.8 %
GWF vs dummy x 1 min with TI
TYPE DAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MINHIT MAXHIT HITS SWINGS CRIT% FLANK% EFFECTIVENESS
Outgoing Damage 3,916,646 59,343.12 17,722.38 0 256,271 221 221 31% 0% 123.6 %
No surprise. 3.2K to 3.9k. ~ 22% damage boost absolutely passive.
But that is, of course, totally irrelevant.
The point is not the magnitude of the damage boost itself.
I love the boost TBH. Not asking for a nerf.
The point is that this change was a mistaken attempt at "fixing" AA.
There are two problems which I was addressing with this "fix":
1) Terrifying Insight should not be a passive >20% damage boost to the entire party (without any effort, application or skill/technique required).
2) The "fix" to the Anointed Army problem was to swap one overpowered ability (AA) with an even MORE overpowered ability (the new Terrifying Insight). lol. whatevah. We have 18 hours of preview testing of these changes and 6 ACT recorded hours of data... but sure. No idea what we're talking about. Feel free to post your superior data.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
DO viable now? but but but all clerics should be anointed champions!
DO is stuck with HG as only good daily power for buffing, TI needs to stay the way it is or if changed then AC should get its ability to use AA and HG at the same time taken away to balance things out.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
You can either have a bad DO DC who stands around with hands in pockets and buffs 20%, or you can have a good DO DC who actually plays their toon and buffs far more.
You can have a bad OP who buffs much more than 20% passively but does little else, or a good OP who buffs more than 20% passively and contributes in other ways.
At the end of the day, if you have to choose between the good OP and the bad OP, or the good DC and the bad DC, are you ever going to choose the DC or OP who stands around with hands in pockets? I don't think so.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Making it short, power share is not AA only. Sorry dread. This is not the proof that TI is better than AC DC. It's only the proof that your team mates don't know how to take advantage of having an AC DC. You said it: "one/four party members were out of AA AoE range in >50% of castings.
No intentions to be rude, but the best you can say is that your team needs a DO more than an AC, because you don't know how to take the best advantage from an AC DC.
When I play with my guildes, they are all aware of how the relative positioning has an impact on the power share effectiveness: you'll never see a 50% AA miss ratio (the first part of FBI can be an exception sometimes).
You have room for improvement, but this has nothing to do with TI vs power share. Sorry again Dread, but this is only the final proof that you are missing something.
You keep on forgetting all the power share components: it's not AA only.
A RiAC having 32K unbuffed power, shares up to 58% (not 33%) of his/her power = 18,560.
If you and your team mates have max bondings, then it becomes
~18560 x 3 = 55680~18560 x 2.85 = 52896 more power. Bondings and positioning are often the real discriminant.If you want to know if TI is better than power share, then you've to solve this simple equation:
and this is the result.
For example if a player has 32k unbuffed power, the AC DC must provide 14,4k power to be better than TI. Taking your example, your RiAC can generate up to 18.5k power. If max bondings are considered, then no way: power share is def better.
If the players cannot use this opportunity because they are out of range >50%...well you're in a under performing team and TI is very often better than any power share AC DC.
My final assessment is not that DO is better than AC: what you wrote is the proof that you're missing opportunities ("at least one/four party members were out of AA AoE range in >50% of castings").
Ofc not all power share components can be 100% uptime at the same time, so there are moments where DO is better and other moments when an AC DC is better if the players know what they're doing: this is the best you can say as a general comment.
Another thing you can say is that, if you're a low IL buffer DC, go DO because you don't have enough power to share yet.
The final message is simple: at high level there's space for both DO and AC, even better if they are in the same team.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
For the Bondings part, aren't 3x R12 Bondings 2.85? And isn't the legendary bonus only off of the comp's basic stats?
And for the unbuffed power for the DPSer, is it when the DPSer isn't doing anything, or does unbuffed power also include the power the player recieves from Bondings (ex: the power from Bonding Runestones, stats from comp gear, stats from enchants, etc.)?
And are the formula + chart copyrighted/trademarked? (wanted to download/use them for study/reference material).
According to @michela123, BoB has the same AS radius (DC is the center). I'm not 100% sure about it, but I don't have data to say anything alternative.
WoL has a 30' radius (tooltip)
When I'm in a dungeon with my guildies I suggest to check where the tank is because I'm always close to him. Against (semi) static bosses, it's quite simple: tank in front, and all the others behind the boss at short range. checked my spreadsheet: you're right about both points.
So it's not 55680, but 52896 + legendary bonus off of the comp's basic stats.
Anyhow this doesn't change the results. There's a discussion in the Temple forum where @dupeks studied all the items that contribute to the unbuffed power.
For example, the values from enchantments, boons, artifact, gear contribute to the unbuffed power.
Power from the twisted set, the +X sudden rings, bondings don't contribute to the unbuffed power.
Usually we consider the unbuffed power because that's the reference value to calculate the power share.
It's important to know that in a power share interaction is more important to buff the companion with bondings than the player. It was used the first time by @thefabricant long time ago when in the temple forum we discussed AA+bondings vs HG.
He didn't write the formula explicitly, but he's the moral owner.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
let me add something i already posted in the relevant thread (pc cleric build for mod 11 after the update changes) in the cleric forum:
with my faithful dc soloing is MORE (not less!) difficult with TI than with (former) AA etc, even when damage of many powers was increased.
one more thing: i feel this thread IS a nerf thread, even when the OP maintains it is not.
i do not understand OP's motivation to "test", or rather expose the new DO dc, when this class is his 3rd alt...
as is generally the case with nerf threads, they are posted in order to cut off possibilities from other classes/people... so as to give advantage to oneself in one way or the other...
they make for bad feeling/atmosphere
and luckily are often closed.
enjoy playing dc!
one more aspect to this:
my faithful dc's main job these days is to PUG t1
that's where she has lots of work healing and protecting
she is thankful for a constant extra buff from TI as DO
-- especially as these groups damage is generally VERY low
and she has to work hard enough protecting chars with little defense
and healing them up, when needed.
if the OP requests her to "paint" all enemies with TI
-- and it used to be painting each one several times for maximum effect --
she would likely not get to an end with it, besides her core tasks.
and: please don't nerf paladins, they have been nerfed enough!!!
i guess they are happy when they can contribute what they contribute now to a group.
So the formula works in case a player does nothing and he/she gets the buff. Probably this is what @rjc9000 wants to know.
But the formula works anyway: I assume that if a player has max bondings, he/she can easily go up to 50k++ power and TI applies. In this case the AC DC must provide power in the following range to have the same TI effect:
A high-end AC DC can do it, so I would say that in this case AC and DO are very close (you need 34k unbuffed power to share up to 20k power) .
For a full bondings DPS it's important to know that a 2.1k DO with rk 4 TI and a 4.3k power buffer AC are similar from this point of view, but probably it's not true the opposite (a 2.1 AC and 4.3 DO). Unfortunately for power share, the IL matters.
New findings are always welcome.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF