How are we supposed to provide accurate analytics with the current state of the Foundry?

iandarksword · March 2017

In response to the data-mining comments made by @mimicking#6533 in the "State of the Game" live stream with @strumslinger and @nitocris83. This is not meant to be demeaning, but to provide feedback to better make decisions regarding analytics and metrics collected.

How are we supposed to provide accurate metrics/analytic data when:

1. The current reward system for the Foundry is horrendous, an uncommon random piece of gear is NOT sufficient for many players. The reward system in this game is designed to steer players to content, the current reward system for Foundry does the exact opposite. Players do not feel the reward is worthwhile compared to other content within the game that is completed in a similar amount of time, regardless of the quality of story provided. This is not a reflection of the talent of the author, nor is it the reflection of the players' interest in the content created. If players were given a reward useful in their character's progression, there would be more interest in Foundry content. The aforementioned issue, as well as the removal of AD from completion of four eligible quests during Module 6, has handicapped interest profoundly. As a community, authors want players to feel rewarded for choosing to run Foundry quests, not disappointed with the outcome in the chest upon completion. A perfect analogy for the current state of Foundry rewards is the "rocks received by Charlie Brown while trick-or-treating." GIVE PLAYERS A REASON TO SEEK THE CONTENT IN THE FIRST PLACE AND THEY WILL SEEK IT.

2. The editor is inoperable at the present time. There are currently broken quests and no way to fix them. Players will choose a quest, reach a point where it is broken and quit, leaving a negative opinion for Foundry content and no way to provide a review. Authors are likewise unable to fix the problems those players encounter. Because of this, a vicious circle is left to spin and spin. There are also unfinished and unpublished works needed to continue campaigns, without these, players are unable to see the author's intended outcome. The editor being down is not the fault of the Foundry community, we do not control the editor downtime.

3. Because of reasons #1 and #2, the only recourse the community has had is to appeal to the forums for answers and to ask for fixes. We have not only come here, but also formed social media groups with our brothers and sisters in STO, formed Foundry oriented guilds such as Mythweavers, places to ask questions, share reviews, and discuss issues and solutions, (which we have in turn attempted to appeal to the devs repeatedly, seemingly to no avail.) Many ideas and solutions have been discussed ad nauseam on these very forums. We have had players live stream and YouTube Foundry quests in the past. We have asked for rewards to be addressed since the AD removal in Module 6, and been left wanting. We continue to show up through forum posts and live streams, like a bad penny. What more proof do you need that there is player interest? Simply because it does not generate direct income does not mean it isn't worth investing in. There are ways the Foundry can indirectly generate income, drawing more players into the game, which have been discussed on the forums and submitted to the devs several times. With the current state of the Foundry, most in the community have communicated that the system is, with all due respect, unfairly stacked against being successful and rendered completely unable to compete with existing PvE content.

beckylunatic · March 2017

This is so, so, so important. Trying to derive how many people are actually using Foundry right now is meaningless. The quest creators can't edit, and even being able to republish existing material only works if their quest hasn't been unfixably broken. Many wonderful creators have left over the years due to lack of support. Many quests that do get republished are broken and won't be fixed because their creator is gone.

And players, even players who love and cherish Foundry quests, are only paying it lip service at this point. Why? Why aren't we playing these quests just for sheer joy? Well, in part because of the risk of wasting time on a broken quest, and in part because the reward structure has been ~~undermined~~ destroyed. Absolutely everything else we've been given to do is more rewarding, and there is so ridiculously much that we *have to* do, we don't have time for Foundry. None of us literally has to do anything at all, but the progression structure pressure is enormous. Already, to do everything in Neverwinter that I'd like to do, I've calculated that I need about 4 days a week just for gaming. I can't. Literally just can't even. We need to earn AD to buy stuff for character progression; no AD from playing Foundry. We need RP to refine all our refinable equipment; refinement drops in Foundry are a fraction of what they are anywhere else. There are no useful equipment drops in Foundry, only random trash that is barely worth the effort to identify and liquidate. Stronghold advancement? Haha, no.

It has always been a vicious cycle that people don't spend time with Foundry because it receives no support, but Foundry receives no support because the numbers show that nobody is spending time with it. I feel a little sick over this.

@mimicking#6533 @nitocris83

instynctive · March 2017

R. A. Salvatore himself said that the Foundry is the most important aspect of this (or any MMO) game. Players are tired of grinding the same 8 or 9 quests in each areas, especially for Campaign Currency to fill up the Stronghold Mimics. Players want more dungeons.

Please let us do this for and with you, Cryptic. Give us good tools so that we can tell our stories. Give us updated/Foundry-specific assets. Let us design bosses and multi-tiered quests. Let us build a dungeon for the uber-leets. Let us build PvP playing fields. Let us build Stronghold/Alliance quests (that start in the SH map).

But most importantly, reward the players. give them the change to get a box of shards (of their choosing), or RAD, or even epic equipment. Dye packs! RP. Bind it all to account, that's fine.

But I have to agree with Ian and Becky: it's not fair to chop off the Foundry's legs, then berate it because it can no long run.

Take the time. Spend the "bandwidth". FIX the Foundry. Let us tell our stories too. "Unlimited Content".

tyfighter77 · March 2017

I want to echo the thoughts of beckylunatic and iandarksword. We know you are aware of our interest and concerns and we are grateful you acknowledged it in the live stream.

The main reason for this thread is, I believe, the worry that your data-mining will show very dismal usage of the Foundry if it is based on current analytics. Almost not worth bothering. However, if you have the ability / plan to study historical data from when the Foundry was functional and there was an AD reward system, we would be more encouraged.

What it comes down to, is do you, the developers, and those who make the decisions with/for you have enough imagination and trust in your user base to fix the Foundry. I understand it is a business decision first, but at some point someone thought it was very important and worthwhile, or we would never have had a foundry in the first place. And it sounds as if the main reason it fell through the cracks was the original developer leaving rather than it being a logistical failure. So yes it will take a little risk on your part. Especially if you are only using current data.

But understand and make no mistake, the Foundry is a thing that attracted many players to your game. If you have been losing players consider thzt point. I have talked to many people who left out of frustration over lack of Foundry support, I'm sure you are well aware.

The feature of user generated content is the main thing that sets this MMO apart from all the others. Yes there are other things, but really, this is the main unique feature. There was a lot of talk in the live stream about bringing us back to D&D roots. There's not much more D&D than homebrew adventures. Please tell us you are considering all of this, and not simply data-mining without context.

And you can bring that to the next meeting with the decision makers. Thanks.

nitocris83 · March 2017

Hi everyone! This exact same concern was brought up when we internally discussed gathering metrics. The short answer: we aren't just looking at current usage but also past, drop off rates and correlation to foundry issues, etc. We didn't go into deep level discussions on how we'll gather the data due to time constraints (as you saw, I suck at keeping to a schedule when streaming) but it's not "let's take a look at the last couple days of usage".

tyfighter77 · March 2017

@nitocris83

That's very encouraging, thank you.

fluffy6977 · March 2017

Just to throw this in, not only does foundry need to be revitalized for PC, it needs to be introduced to console with the ability to edit on console or PC and publish to all three platforms. Before anyone says anything about that being too hard or not allowed by Microsoft, Halo5 currently has the Forge (literally map and game mode editor complete with cinematics, albeit somewhat limited there) running on PC and Xbox One, with the ability to edit on PC and publish to Xbox One. It can be done, and it is wildly successful for Halo. Need help figuring it out? Have a chat with 343 and Microsoft, I'm sure they'd be willing to help steer you in the right direction.

As for rewards, dish out normal refinement(BtAoP) and add a loot chest (with length/difficulty tiers determining drop tables, maybe fashion pieces/outdated transmute gear?). Make everything that drops from Foundry quests BtAoP. Problem solved, although to be honest I would run the quests for the stories.

Even on console, user driven content is a huge win for companies, and honestly it was an enormous letdown for me and my group to learn that the Foundry would not be available on Xbox. Especially now that there is another DnD based game on console for a $20 price point that just so happens to not only allow you to create content to run with friends, but actually allows for a live DM to adjust the dungeon on the fly (too easy? Here's a new mob. Running too fast? Watch out for that spiked pit), you cannot afford to ignore Foundry content, and you definitely cannot afford to exclude console from participation in it.

Get the resources you need from PWE to make this happen, pull a Standing Stone Games maneuver, whatever you gotta do, do it. It will be worth it. If you need to push management a little for it, you could always bring up the new WotC Digital company, not sure what Cryptic's licensing contract is, but if I were management over there I'd be getting nervous about it right about now.

dzaims · March 2017

I just want to echo the pleas of my fellow storytellers. Foundry is to NW what freestyle DMing is to D&D. Sure, when we started playing D&D, it was the DM using the 'Keep in the Borderlands', or one of the other mountains of TSR-published modules, but eventually, the DMs would be writing their own quests, doing their own maps. It brings more to the game for the DMs, and more to the players.

Yes, the rewards have needed work for a long time, but the AD bump made up for that, before it got whacked. Yes, everyone in the game needs RP now, so make chest rewards BtA RP (blue-level, perhaps) and an AD reward structure similar to Skirmishes.

IF you can make Foundry functional and FUN again, I promise, I'll fix the three I wrote, and give you more.

valcontar73 · March 2017

Wondering what do you seek?

"Metrics usage" or "fun" playing the foundries?

Wondering what do you want?

Bored grinding players, or happy players?

dread4moor · March 2017

@nitocris83 @mimicking#6533 @strumslinger
First, thank you for the livestream. You were very generous with your time.

The message received from the livestream re: forum investment was silence and it was NOT by accident.
Silence is the loudest message possible.
It says loud and clear what Cryptic's actions have been saying for the past two years:
"We are divesting the foundry."

Don't be shy about it or ashamed. You are a company with narrow profit margins. We get that.
What you are saying is "Foundry is a cost center, not a revenue center. We cannot invest resources in cost centers."
If that is the reality, there is no shame in that. Just be open about it.

But from a business perspective, many of your customers believe divesting in the Foundry is a major opportunity cost.

A minimal investment of designer FTE hours in the foundry can generate ongoing revenue and retain/grow your cash-paying customer base.
Business plan:
Activate the editor. Add account-bound blue and purple RPs (unbottable) and Genie Tokens to Foundry chests as an incentive for Foundry users to return to official Campaign content. Those players will buy zen and keys.
The above suggestions of @fluffy6977 will bring this as buzz marketing momentum to the consoles. More zen and more keys.

The foundry "Unlimited Content" is not just a broken promise... it is a missed business opportunity.

joenettles · March 2017

I agree with everyone that the foundry needs rewards, updates and upgrades. I have hundreds of ideas of how to make it better. But first please JUST TURN IT BACK ON... Give us what we had and enjoyed before, even with the bugs. Then you can work on system stability (getting rid of the hand crank) and move forward. It's just like dungeons, we just want the things we had years ago.

I'm sure everybody is like me, and thinks you're just waiting for everyone to stop using it. So you can remove it when nobody will notice. If you just reload the assets to the maps, costumes, etc.. and say "Yes, we are going to work on asap. And it will be better!" Then we can all go right back to using it fixing broken stories, making content, and waiting.

tripsofthrymr · March 2017

tyfighter77 said:
There was a lot of talk in the live stream about bringing us back to D&D roots. There's not much more D&D than homebrew adventures.

I think R.A. Salvatore would agree with you.

instynctive · March 2017

tripsofthrymr said:
I think R.A. Salvatore would agree with you.

I'm glad you found that... which is why I simply commented on it, instead of providing a link.

ghoulz66 · March 2017

I feel it is too late for the foundry. It was neglected for too long and too many authors have left because of it. Unless you manage to pull off a miracle that solves all the problems which are endless. But with such small staff and resource problems, I don't see it happening.

tripsofthrymr · March 2017

ghoulz66 said:
I feel it is too late for the foundry. It was neglected for too long and too many authors have left because of it.

That problem is easily solved:

List authors of popular, non-exploit foundry quests from open beta to now.
Remove from the list those that still actively play.
Email those still on the list, "Hey! We just relaunched the Foundry. Here are the cool, new features. Come back and have a look."

sandukutupu · March 2017

The OP (iandarksword) has made some great contributions to the Foundry. Also he has suggested rewards that would make the Foundry more enjoyable. I happy to call him a personal friend. It has been over a year now since I was "focused" as iandarksword on the Foundry. Before I return with same commitment and dedication, I need to know the tools are in place and will be available, when I have the time to be available. It can't be some email saying, Hey come have a look. I am talking about trust, too many times our trust has been one sided. I will remain hopeful and optimistic about the future of the Foundry.

However... recent events has me taking an extended break from the game. I think I will wait and see what they offer me to return to the game. It will have to be a lot more than the 30 days of VIP and Frostborn gear they offered to all those who no longer play.

Note to the Management (who is not paying attention): How about rewarding the people playing on a weekly basis instead?

Catch ya later players!

iandarksword · March 2017

@mimicking#6533 has responded to similar concerns on another feedback thread here, (I would quote it, but my mobile doesn't seem to do that properly):
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1229042/why-the-developer-stream-state-of-the-game-3-7-was-soo-far-off-the-mark
As Julia (@nitocris83) mentioned above, Thomas updated they're examining the entire span of Foundry useage. I know many folks here and elsewhere are hopeful that solutions will be found, the "old car" analogy in the linked thread seems a fair description of the situation. The rewards for quests still remain the largest hurdle, let's hope our feedback and suggestions to improve those are taken into consideration. Hopefully they can address the current issues with the missing assets in the editor so that we can return to being creative again.

damoc · March 2017

I can't create a custom map. so I don't bother with the Foundry

instynctive · March 2017

Perhaps they should just junk everything and start over from scratch. Brand new foundry, brand new editor... and incorporate the changes that we've been begging for for years.

iandarksword · March 2017

I think it's got a decent framework, just was neglected. It's likely that it needs a good tune-up. Hopefully, it's not like this:

https://youtu.be/-CPss95p3Ck

plavia · March 2017

they need to start from scratch

allow very limited options to foundry creator. (few monsters and small maps)
once he level up with his creation (campaign) he will get more options.
it should take lot of time to level up.

at the end he will be able to create full dungeon with real boss and purple reward.
till then reward should give special potions, overload enchants and refining such as marks of power, stabilty etc..

they have certain amount of players, out of that few % are using foundry. (might be even less then 1%)
it should be a few thousands.
they should be able to control the content, rewards, etc.

they can add the foundry option to L20 guilds, ppl will less abuse the system if they know they can be explled.
or if there is guild penalty.

beckylunatic · March 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rryQfAnQs3M

demonmonger · March 2017

You could always play my foundry

Just look for the quest called

"Race for the Chest 2.0"

Bring all your friends!!!

If you are vip you can hijack party by adding people and summoning gateway to foundry missions.

hustin1 · March 2017

I'm still amazed to this day that the devs haven't put rewards in certain Foundry quests that the bulk of players would want, for this reason:

Featuring a Foundry quest creates a separate, "frozen" version of that quest.

In other words, when someone at Cryptic features a quest, they can be certain that it's not an "exploit" quest. They can then add rewards to it that are either relevant to all of the other content that people run or are separately desirable.

We've already seen how a simple thing like expanding the loot tables has created the incentive for players to grind existing dungeons: there is no reason why the concept couldn't be extended to the Foundry. Also, since many Foundry quests are associated with certain zones, there is no reason why there couldn't be a synergy of dev-added rewards with rewards available in those zones.

It was at least gratifying to see @mimicking#6533 elaborate on some of the issues plaguing the Foundry, such as the lack of error reporting. At least this gives us some insight into what's going on (it's really hard to not put my software engineer hat on here as that's what I do for a living). I'm just hoping that it's using something flexible under the hood like XML...

waryur · March 2017

You're datamining? Now?
...
I agree with everything else everyone else has said.
I am just, shook.
Datamining. Now. A year after you announced you'd make no updates or fixes for a year.
And you never did it before? Or had a system/program in place?

Does Crypt/whoever even have a data analyst who can actually analyze the data? Not someone that can write code and generate data reports. Someone with Lean Management? Six Sigma? TQM? Someone that knows, professionally, that if you have bad data going in you're going to get bad data coming out? And has the skills to identify the gaps and include them in the analysis? Someone that can drill down the data for astronomical points, or at least explain it to you in Xbar-R chart or pretty run/control charts? Or I don't know, that can set up the parameters for a proper datamining? Like acknowledging the TOTAL CUUMULATIVE MONTHS the Foundry has been down since beta - no one can run any Foundry content if it is not up. No one can build if it is not. And certainly no one will run Foundry if you take out every reminder that it even exists from any new player walk throughs/guides/advertising.
Do you have someone to correlate the data with the dates of any key events/changes? Or even has a calendar of them? Like removing the Foundry AD from Rhix or RA Salvatore's interview and praise. Or every time a Foundry was announced as being featured. Or a calendar of holidays? Where were the upticks, the downswings. Or... or... or.

I sincerely, truly, hope there is a person involved that can professionally analyze and interpret the datamining and hopefully was involved in the design of the mining in the first place.

mathmaster74 · March 2017

@iandarksword At a time like this, I'm afraid our only option is to ban all non-Foundry content from our playtime. Let the metrics show our commitment. Demonmonger has the right idea. We need to play each other's quests and promote Foundry authorship with more than just words. People (ahem) need reviews and tips. Imagine what a difference an entire guild like your Mythweavers could make if they, and you, and I, and all who have written here, and all who have written across other Foundry threads would commit to playing Foundry content only. The metrics couldn't be ignored. At the very least we need to treat Foundry quest playtime as equal to regular content playtime. Will it save The Foundry? I'm not entirely convinced. I watched a playback of the state of the game livestream. Mimic King described The Foundry as a hand-crank mechanism designed by a developer who has left Cryptic. Clearly those left behind have difficulty understanding this developer's work. It seems as though the metrics would have to support them bringing in outside help to fix The Foundry. Still...it seems the best, and perhaps only, chance for The Foundry. Imagine the developers working on modules 11b and 12 and 13 and getting low returns on their fully staffed modules because players are all running PGC in The Foundry instead. That's about what it would take, it seems.

iandarksword · March 2017

@mathmaster74#2783 I've recently been trying to review 2, maybe 3 quests a day if time allows. I'm trying to mix it up between some popular ones and some buried ones. I wouldn't say to ignore everything except Foundry, but definitely making an effort to review a few each day if possible is a good idea.

trgluestickz · March 2017

I can remember doing a few foundry quests a long time ago and I stumbled across some good ones that I really enjoyed. I stopped playing foundry because most of the quests I attempted would turn out to be broken and uncompletable and in order to progress, I couldn't afford to spend hours rolling the dice hoping to get a quest that wasn't broken and was well written.

I agree with most of the other people on this thread. The foundry's neglect is a huge missed oportunity for both player and company alike and with some love, would be a cash cow and draw more players to this game. I'd definitly play foundry if it was restored and updated.

I am a pvp player myself and would particularly love to see the ability to make pvp maps added to the foundry. I would also participate in PVE content and likely have a lot more fun doing so than I currently do if there was a huge viariaty of player made content to choose from.

hustin1 · March 2017

This is so frustrating. Over a month ago I was ready to put in teleporters to drastically cut down on the backtracking in my quest, and of course the editor was broken. I have a TON of work done on a custom map for another quest, and now I'm forced to sit and wait...and wait...and wait.

For crying out loud -- is it too much to ask for a bugfix? Is anyone trying to at least fix the editor? Is the datamining to determine if they want to improve the Foundry or whether they want to just FIX it???

nevfe · March 2017

The Foundry, done well would lift this game up like no other. I'm still amazed at the quality some people manage even with the state it's in. But it probably needs a complete re-write and my suspicion is that Cryptic are not going to do that because they can't justify it when it won't run at all on consoles.

But imagine, the River District dig sites would have been an awesome way to integrate Foundry into the latest module if it had been up to it. And surely the big problem for MMO publishers is keeping up with the constant demand for new content. What better way to slake that thirst than have your players create?

Things that are needed

1) A way to set a 'budget' on how mob packs can be placed. I.e. you can only have so many of a particular type within a given area. This would help stop 'exploit' maps

2) Proper boss mobs with boss mob abilities

3) Proper rewards

4) A fix so that it's not broken after every new module.

5) A way to draw in non-authors to running foundry quests (e.g. linking in Foundry to new modules as part of the story).

Is it too late? I get the sense that the number gathering exercise is about preparing a justification for shutting it down permanently.

Perhaps there might be a way Cryptic could get get the player base to work on the rewriting the code itself? I've more years under my belt in the computer industry than I care to admit to now. It's something I might consider doing on some sort of 'no sale, no fee' basis. I.e. if a player-team of coders could come up with a Foundry system good enough that helped the game earn revenue then there'd be rewards at the end.

hustin1 · March 2017

I'd certainly be willing to lend a hand, though I think hell would freeze over before the devs granted us that kind of insight. Just as long as it's not in any way related to flight controls for manned aircraft so that I can't have a conflict of interest

How are we supposed to provide accurate analytics with the current state of the Foundry?

Comments