Hm, how many times do people expect an enchant to proc on a single power activation?
For the vast majority of powers the answer will be "once", so it seems weird to say that for just a few powers the answer will be "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". It seems like it would make better sense to have the answer always be "once", and tune the damage accordingly.
Are there some powers where enchants multiproc in a way that makes sense to people? If I had some examples of what people see as "expected" behavior, that would help me.
Aside: I haven't touched Vorpal/Dread. The plan is to leave those alone for this pass, so that they serve as a baseline. The no-multiproc thing is for the enchants that do X% of weapon damage. (Design note: it might seem dangerous to have things work so differently, but it's actually the opposite. If a power does 50 pings of 100 damage each, then having Vorpal proc on each would be fine, since Vorpal is doing damage based on that 100, so it would be the same as Vorpal proc'ing once on a hit of 5000. But if it's an enchant that is doing +200 per hit, then proc'ing 50 times on 50 hits of 100 is completely different from proc'ing once on a single hit of 5000. This is part of why flat damage adds are so dangerous -- if anyone remembers the weapon sharpening stones from pre-launch WoW, it was the same problem.)
@rgutscheradev, I think number of proc per single power activation should be scaled to the number of ticks of damage. Lets imagine a power that last 20 seconds but deals minimal damage, do you want a small little weapon damage proc on the first tick but then whole power will not proc any lightning/bile/flaming etc enchant for the rest 19 seconds? No, that isnt what we want, we rather have another 19 ticks of weapon damage, even if the damage is very small.
I know it may be overpowered in certain situation, but please at least allow powers like icy terrain etc with very low damage but last very long to multiproc our enchant. TY for your attention.
Hm, how many times do people expect an enchant to proc on a single power activation?
For the vast majority of powers the answer will be "once", so it seems weird to say that for just a few powers the answer will be "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". It seems like it would make better sense to have the answer always be "once", and tune the damage accordingly.
Are there some powers where enchants multiproc in a way that makes sense to people? If I had some examples of what people see as "expected" behavior, that would help me.
Aside: I haven't touched Vorpal/Dread. The plan is to leave those alone for this pass, so that they serve as a baseline. The no-multiproc thing is for the enchants that do X% of weapon damage. (Design note: it might seem dangerous to have things work so differently, but it's actually the opposite. If a power does 50 pings of 100 damage each, then having Vorpal proc on each would be fine, since Vorpal is doing damage based on that 100, so it would be the same as Vorpal proc'ing once on a hit of 5000. But if it's an enchant that is doing +200 per hit, then proc'ing 50 times on 50 hits of 100 is completely different from proc'ing once on a single hit of 5000. This is part of why flat damage adds are so dangerous -- if anyone remembers the weapon sharpening stones from pre-launch WoW, it was the same problem.)
If i slot a Enchant that proct on every hit and my skill has multi-hit capacity i expect the enchant to proc on every hit ... I've build my CW around that and because i could get my hand in a cheap "perfect lightning"!!!
I reaaly hope my DOT or multihit skill's keep activating my lightning enchant, it works this way with underdark ring's stacks and twisted weapons stacks i dont see why it would work other way with Lightning enchant
The skills i'm talking about are: Steal Time Frozen terrain Conduit of Ice
Doing thsis in another way makes no sense, if i have a vorpal sloted i will recieve my extra crit severity on every hit !!! why would the lightning don't proc on every hit ? or the flame stacks cont only one when i multi hit the target ?
Again is the same way the twisted set works and i cant recall anyone saying that is unbalanced...
I've posted based on forun posts only, i will download the preview again to see the changes tonight. If i misunderstood something sorry in advance, also Sorry for the bad english !
Skills that hit over time, like icy terrain or smoke bomb, already have their damages adjusted for this. Each tick hits for low damage. It seems fair to me that weapon enchants proc from each hit - since each hit from the skill won't be much damage anyway.
Do people like having the tooltip adjust in this way? I agree it's a bit weird, but it felt to me on balance more comprehensible (at least for the average player) than just showing the base percentage all the time. And it's way less wordy than adding a sentence that says something like "This damage is scaled by your Power (and by all the other things that normally scale your damage)".
I would prefer that the tooltip remain static and include an indication that it scales. Perhaps even something like "Deals at least 30% weapon damage (scales with power)" to avoid having a very long tooltip addition.
Hm, how many times do people expect an enchant to proc on a single power activation?
For the vast majority of powers the answer will be "once", so it seems weird to say that for just a few powers the answer will be "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". It seems like it would make better sense to have the answer always be "once", and tune the damage accordingly.
Are there some powers where enchants multiproc in a way that makes sense to people? If I had some examples of what people see as "expected" behavior, that would help me.
I think if you asked for the vast majority of powers how many times they hit, the answer will be "once". And similarly, for the for powers that do hit multiple times, they hit "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". Powers are by and large already scaled to accommodate for that. I think that it would be most intuitive to have WEs follow this pattern.
For powers that apply DoTs, I think only the first hit (which applies the DoT) should trigger the WE. But for other powers, like ones that create or apply some sort of entity that repeatedly hits baddies who stay in range, it makes sense thematically and practically for the powers to apply the WE multiple times.
All of the following apply a thing or leave behind a thing that continues to hit baddies. Icy Terrain Conduit of Ice Storm Pillar Bloodbath Crescendo Spinning Strike There may be others (Pillar of Power or Plant Growth?)
For Oppressive Force and Steal Time, I guess we could have it only hit once, but it still feels like it would be thematically more appropriate to have it proc multiple times.
I get what you're saying about flat damage additions compared to % additions, but the reality is that only allowing these powers to benefit once will significantly devalue them compared to other options and reduce build variety at least in the dps category.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Oh boy, huge can of worms....
To lay things out plain, Robert (this is easier, so I hope you don't mind) has to try to implement something that won't be a huge disappointment while simultaneously trying to not create another Lostmaunster or Owlbear Cub.
But if you've got weapon enchants that can be applied by any damage source (at-will, encounter, daily, class feature damage proc, feat damage proc... and sometimes boon damage is affected by weapon enchants), AND you're scaling weapon enchant damage with power and buffs, AND you're allowing them to proc from every damage tick (the cooldowns typically only apply to secondary utility effects, remember), you're basically looking at doing that very thing.
Having DoTs not be able to proc effects more than once has a tendency to leave things pretty darned underwhelming though.
So while it seems very intuitively wrong for Imprisonment to cause your weapon enchant to hit 60 times (once per every check the game performs to see if the target remains imprisoned for the entire duration?), I think I see where Robert is coming from with a need to put some kind of upper limit in place.
Frankly, this question about about how many a enchant should proc is clearly mor farreaching than just the weapon enchant subject. It touches the reason we have multi hit on some powers and not orthers. It is so ill conconceived that we have distictions like on hit, on power use, on when Timmie is in the well with a tuba or with cement shoes. I exagerate but maybe it's time to ask ourselves this question: what use do we have of a multi hit power that will just add a lot of numbers on the display with an added summ number if we could have the exact same result with a big equivalent hit? Furthermore for the majority of multi-hit powers, the determination if it's a critical strike is not done on every hit but on the whole power, making the fact that thy multi hit rather pointless. Time to clean this mess methinks. Crits, enchants procs, sets procs should be calculated on every hit as the intuition would see it. For DoTs on the other hand it should be calculated only once at the application of the DoT.
Hm, how many times do people expect an enchant to proc on a single power activation?
For the vast majority of powers the answer will be "once", so it seems weird to say that for just a few powers the answer will be "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". It seems like it would make better sense to have the answer always be "once", and tune the damage accordingly.
Are there some powers where enchants multiproc in a way that makes sense to people? If I had some examples of what people see as "expected" behavior, that would help me.
Aside: I haven't touched Vorpal/Dread. The plan is to leave those alone for this pass, so that they serve as a baseline. The no-multiproc thing is for the enchants that do X% of weapon damage. (Design note: it might seem dangerous to have things work so differently, but it's actually the opposite. If a power does 50 pings of 100 damage each, then having Vorpal proc on each would be fine, since Vorpal is doing damage based on that 100, so it would be the same as Vorpal proc'ing once on a hit of 5000. But if it's an enchant that is doing +200 per hit, then proc'ing 50 times on 50 hits of 100 is completely different from proc'ing once on a single hit of 5000. This is part of why flat damage adds are so dangerous -- if anyone remembers the weapon sharpening stones from pre-launch WoW, it was the same problem.)
If i slot a Enchant that proct on every hit and my skill has multi-hit capacity i expect the enchant to proc on every hit ... I've build my CW around that and because i could get my hand in a cheap "perfect lightning"!!!
I reaaly hope my DOT or multihit skill's keep activating my lightning enchant, it works this way with underdark ring's stacks and twisted weapons stacks i dont see why it would work other way with Lightning enchant
The skills i'm talking about are: Steal Time Frozen terrain Conduit of Ice
Doing thsis in another way makes no sense, if i have a vorpal sloted i will recieve my extra crit severity on every hit !!! why would the lightning don't proc on every hit ? or the flame stacks cont only one when i multi hit the target ?
Again is the same way the twisted set works and i cant recall anyone saying that is unbalanced...
I've posted based on forun posts only, i will download the preview again to see the changes tonight. If i misunderstood something sorry in advance, also Sorry for the bad english !
I've just tested the Lightning in the Preview and is this change mentioned abouve is already there i didnt understand what it means... looks like it still procs on every dmg tick...
Ive also seen the Imprisionment "effect/bug" looks bad, the question is is not possible to turn over the enchant on this encounter ? i mean i shouldnt deal any dmg so is shoudnt proc any enchantment also...
I not worth destroy one entire build because we got a broken skill, the problem is in this skill not in multihits
Please look at this with care
Post edited by rafaelda on
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
I know it may be overpowered in certain situation, but please at least allow powers like icy terrain etc with very low damage but last very long to multiproc our enchant. TY for your attention.
@rgutscheradev Allowing multi-proccing on skills contributes to build diversity, which this whole enchant re-work thing is supposed to support. Do not kill that. If something turns out to be broken, we'll make sure to report it. While imprisonment wasn't working as intended, it was still ticking slowly. It didn't turn that skill into a competitive one that would never leave our bar. The current meta is still "full debuff - high burst", simply because of the HP pool of the trash mobs being so low. Ticking skills often take too long and don't even have time to finish, therefore losing a lot of their potential. Do not do anything too crazy with the way encounters work now or how things are procced. Those mechanics are basically the indentities of the classes, the reason why we pick them. I'd still say that you fine-tune enchants (numbers, enchant proc mechanics) so that there is something for everyone.
- Dread/Vorpal contribute to big hits - Flaming/Plague Fire hit once and then do DoT - Lightning/Fey add flat damage on proc - Frost/Holy Avenger hit and buff/debuff - ....
I don't see why the new enchantments shouldn't support multiple playstyles. Different classes capitalize on different types of enchantments, based on how frequently they can proc them. You proc quickly? Go for the flat damage. You don't have multi-proccing abilities but can stand there and constantly deal damage? Dread/Vorpal is the way to go. You spend a lot of time kiting around? Flaming/Plague Fire. Now, you'd have to fine-tune numbers accordingly depending on what role you want the enchant to have. DoT enchants like Flaming/Plague Fire should have a small on-hit direct damage, but the DoT should be scaled up accordingly. Lightning/Fey should provide a reasonable on-hit damage. Frost/Holy Avenger seem to complement support roles, lower their direct damage, strengthen the support aspect.
I can see things from your perspective, you want to introduce a consistent way for enchants to work, because that would lay down the groundwork for future changes and make everything easier to predict and calculate. This is a good approach, looking at it from your perspective. From the players perspective, this lowers the fun factor and makes the identities of the classes/builds worse. They all have very distinguishable playstyles. The people who created them originally did a really great job on that.
My advice? Go with the theme, make enchants support characters/builds.
Another piece of info to add (sorry, this is getting into technical details of how the powers are built, but at this point that's unavoidable).
When I say "no more multiproccing", that's not exactly right. Powers are built different ways. DoTs, for example, have a "tick rate". There's one power, it goes on the target, and it "ticks" every so often (2x per second, say). What I changed was to say "you only get to proc your WE on the first tick".
But other powers are built differently. For example, powers that put a patch of damage on the ground create an (invisible) entity that sits there and "attacks" nearby foes every so often. Each attack of that entity is its own attack, and can (potentially) have its own proc. (Even powers that "look like" you're "really attacking" are often built this way, such as the Hunter/Ranger power Rain of Arrows.)
So, for example, Icy Terrain "attacks" multiple times during its duration, and it (still) gets multiple WE procs.
So not everything has stopped proc'ing. I encourage people to try things out when the changes hit and see what they think.
But yes, as Becky says, we don't want to create another Lostmauth or Owlbear cub issue. As far as possible, I want to build things right mechanically, and adjust the numbers up or down as needed. Trying to improve the damage by allowing weird/buggy things (like the 60 procs on Imprisonment) will only be bad in the long run.
(Side note on Imprisonment: the reason it is "ticking" is because it's a toggle power. It actually puts a very short stun (.4 sec) on the target every quarter second, so that when you toggle it off it's responsive -- at worst a .4 second delay. That's where the 60 is coming from: 15/0.25.)
As damoc says, it's a bit of a mess. Cleaning it up top to bottom would involve rewriting more of the combat engine than would be smart (rewrite too much, and at some point you just break everything), but hopefully we can clean things up within the existing engine as we go. What's happening with the WEs is part of that struggle. There are other parts going on as well (many of you are aware of the various "X doesn't proc Y when it clearly should" bugs we have -- another designer is working on one of those bugs right now as I type this). But big picture, proccing (and especially *how often* one should proc) is something many MMOs have problems with, and I can't say that Neverwinter has figured out the perfect solution. But I want to keep making it better.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
(sorry, this is getting into technical details of how the powers are built, but at this point that's unavoidable)
This actually provides a lot of insight that I think is welcome. I am now wondering if this is an indicator of powers that snapshot a critical hit vs. ones that don't.
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
@rgutscheradev All of this just began from imprisonment. So please don't dig deep down and end up ruining things. Steal time is the only other thing questionable about the CW. IT/CoI deal very low damage.
Please don't end up nerfing dreadtheft or blades. They're already low dps to begin with. Even with WE multiprocs you'll see a GWF mow down mobs by the time a SW with lightning gets the chance. Damnation and temptation need all the damage they can squeeze out.
Mention rain of arrows? Do archers and combat really need to be more inferior to trappers?
So in the end this is about DoTs, but DoTs never multiproc'd to begin with.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited January 2017
He mentioned Rain of Arrows specifically as an example of an invisible entity that makes each hit an individual attack and therefore could still proc your weapon enchant on every hit. Icy Terrain too.
Another piece of info to add (sorry, this is getting into technical details of how the powers are built, but at this point that's unavoidable).
When I say "no more multiproccing", that's not exactly right. Powers are built different ways. DoTs, for example, have a "tick rate". There's one power, it goes on the target, and it "ticks" every so often (2x per second, say). What I changed was to say "you only get to proc your WE on the first tick".
But other powers are built differently. For example, powers that put a patch of damage on the ground create an (invisible) entity that sits there and "attacks" nearby foes every so often. Each attack of that entity is its own attack, and can (potentially) have its own proc. (Even powers that "look like" you're "really attacking" are often built this way, such as the Hunter/Ranger power Rain of Arrows.)
So, for example, Icy Terrain "attacks" multiple times during its duration, and it (still) gets multiple WE procs.
So not everything has stopped proc'ing. I encourage people to try things out when the changes hit and see what they think.
But yes, as Becky says, we don't want to create another Lostmauth or Owlbear cub issue. As far as possible, I want to build things right mechanically, and adjust the numbers up or down as needed. Trying to improve the damage by allowing weird/buggy things (like the 60 procs on Imprisonment) will only be bad in the long run.
(Side note on Imprisonment: the reason it is "ticking" is because it's a toggle power. It actually puts a very short stun (.4 sec) on the target every quarter second, so that when you toggle it off it's responsive -- at worst a .4 second delay. That's where the 60 is coming from: 15/0.25.)
As damoc says, it's a bit of a mess. Cleaning it up top to bottom would involve rewriting more of the combat engine than would be smart (rewrite too much, and at some point you just break everything), but hopefully we can clean things up within the existing engine as we go. What's happening with the WEs is part of that struggle. There are other parts going on as well (many of you are aware of the various "X doesn't proc Y when it clearly should" bugs we have -- another designer is working on one of those bugs right now as I type this). But big picture, proccing (and especially *how often* one should proc) is something many MMOs have problems with, and I can't say that Neverwinter has figured out the perfect solution. But I want to keep making it better.
Very good explanation, all of these details significantly help provide the right context for the discussion. Thanks for continuing the dialog!
Another piece of info to add (sorry, this is getting into technical details of how the powers are built, but at this point that's unavoidable).
When I say "no more multiproccing", that's not exactly right. Powers are built different ways. DoTs, for example, have a "tick rate". There's one power, it goes on the target, and it "ticks" every so often (2x per second, say). What I changed was to say "you only get to proc your WE on the first tick".
But other powers are built differently. For example, powers that put a patch of damage on the ground create an (invisible) entity that sits there and "attacks" nearby foes every so often. Each attack of that entity is its own attack, and can (potentially) have its own proc. (Even powers that "look like" you're "really attacking" are often built this way, such as the Hunter/Ranger power Rain of Arrows.)
So, for example, Icy Terrain "attacks" multiple times during its duration, and it (still) gets multiple WE procs.
So not everything has stopped proc'ing. I encourage people to try things out when the changes hit and see what they think.
But yes, as Becky says, we don't want to create another Lostmauth or Owlbear cub issue. As far as possible, I want to build things right mechanically, and adjust the numbers up or down as needed. Trying to improve the damage by allowing weird/buggy things (like the 60 procs on Imprisonment) will only be bad in the long run.
(Side note on Imprisonment: the reason it is "ticking" is because it's a toggle power. It actually puts a very short stun (.4 sec) on the target every quarter second, so that when you toggle it off it's responsive -- at worst a .4 second delay. That's where the 60 is coming from: 15/0.25.)
As damoc says, it's a bit of a mess. Cleaning it up top to bottom would involve rewriting more of the combat engine than would be smart (rewrite too much, and at some point you just break everything), but hopefully we can clean things up within the existing engine as we go. What's happening with the WEs is part of that struggle. There are other parts going on as well (many of you are aware of the various "X doesn't proc Y when it clearly should" bugs we have -- another designer is working on one of those bugs right now as I type this). But big picture, proccing (and especially *how often* one should proc) is something many MMOs have problems with, and I can't say that Neverwinter has figured out the perfect solution. But I want to keep making it better.
Why do some powers like TR Path of blades not proc any weapon enchantments at all? But others like Icy terrain do?
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
He mentioned Rain of Arrows specifically as an example of an invisible entity that makes each hit an individual attack and therefore could still proc your weapon enchant on every hit. Icy Terrain too.
Never said anything about SWs.... As if SWs didn't have enough problems already....
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Ok, idea seems good, and if it will indeed be more "friendly" for the engine that makes the game shine up it will be good for players as well. While trying classes i've noticed a lot of powers that alone didn't made any sence because they had none weapon enchant procs like slam for example, but be very carefull about power animation cancel/escape(like indomitable strenght, very usual of pvp players) and doted powers that with single procs may be very inferior to vorpal/dread and at last keep and eye and something new for lifedrinker, like i said before flaming dot life steals, i would rather carry a flaming for survival over lifedrinker, if 5 targets are being affected by 3 stacks of the dot each hitting by 10k( wich is perfectly possible), 15 attacks/second at 20% ls rate severity and incoming healing will translate into 43 200k life stolen every second and a behaviour similar to permanent life regain.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Another piece of info to add (sorry, this is getting into technical details of how the powers are built, but at this point that's unavoidable).
When I say "no more multiproccing", that's not exactly right. Powers are built different ways. DoTs, for example, have a "tick rate". There's one power, it goes on the target, and it "ticks" every so often (2x per second, say). What I changed was to say "you only get to proc your WE on the first tick".
But other powers are built differently. For example, powers that put a patch of damage on the ground create an (invisible) entity that sits there and "attacks" nearby foes every so often. Each attack of that entity is its own attack, and can (potentially) have its own proc. (Even powers that "look like" you're "really attacking" are often built this way, such as the Hunter/Ranger power Rain of Arrows.)
So, for example, Icy Terrain "attacks" multiple times during its duration, and it (still) gets multiple WE procs.
So not everything has stopped proc'ing. I encourage people to try things out when the changes hit and see what they think.
But yes, as Becky says, we don't want to create another Lostmauth or Owlbear cub issue. As far as possible, I want to build things right mechanically, and adjust the numbers up or down as needed. Trying to improve the damage by allowing weird/buggy things (like the 60 procs on Imprisonment) will only be bad in the long run.
(Side note on Imprisonment: the reason it is "ticking" is because it's a toggle power. It actually puts a very short stun (.4 sec) on the target every quarter second, so that when you toggle it off it's responsive -- at worst a .4 second delay. That's where the 60 is coming from: 15/0.25.)
As damoc says, it's a bit of a mess. Cleaning it up top to bottom would involve rewriting more of the combat engine than would be smart (rewrite too much, and at some point you just break everything), but hopefully we can clean things up within the existing engine as we go. What's happening with the WEs is part of that struggle. There are other parts going on as well (many of you are aware of the various "X doesn't proc Y when it clearly should" bugs we have -- another designer is working on one of those bugs right now as I type this). But big picture, proccing (and especially *how often* one should proc) is something many MMOs have problems with, and I can't say that Neverwinter has figured out the perfect solution. But I want to keep making it better.
I think this explanation is clear and necessary. You shouldn't be afraid to share things like that. They help players who really want to understand the game !
I also think that if this change is well done, it could be one of the bests ! Less lag, more happy people.
The only question i'm still asking myself is : even if powers that create entity will still proc WE on each attack, what about powers that don't put DoT or entity but deals their damages over some ticks ? For example : Steal Time, Ray of Enfeeblement, Dreadtheft, Blade of Vanquished Armies (not sure if this one creates entity or not),... Will they proc WE on each tick or only on the first one ? Limiting those powers to proccing WE on the first hit would be a hard nerf imho so i hope that's not your plan !
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited February 2017
A thing i noticed in gwf was some feats/ powers not buffing WE and it makes no sence to me, for example, this is the exeption to rule powers in Bilethorn in GWF:
Only the listed powers are buffed, but for instance trample the fallen has no effect on WE buffing, a class feature that is already very dependent on targets being controlled should be given that atention. Also, praticly nobody uses but....this is strange sometimes grand fissure deals no damage at all but still procs enchantments.
Edit probably grand fissure problem is related to elevation, or aparently it seems by hiting the dummies.
Post edited by treesclimber on
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited February 2017
Feedback:
http://oi66.tinypic.com/nd347a.jpg The new flaming enchant have lower dmg then the nerfed Feytouched also the flaming enchants dot aoe and main weapon dmg is not affercted by armor penetration as y can see on those pic.
Folowing the tooltip even the dot dmg shoud do more dmg then the new nerfed feytouched , but it not even near it . Feytouched deal 800 the dot of flaming deal 30 and the main weapon dmg deal around 600 dmg (i dont even want to talk about those 155% Aoe was around 1200) this is joke and on top of this feytouched and all other weapon enchants dont have this armor penetration bug but flaming is not affected by armor penetration as somone else mentioned in this thread (also affected live server).
One in all Flaming is the worst weapon enchant now its not even reach (cuz debuffs)Bronzewood.
rgutscheradev you told us you wanted Flaming to be the best cuz it have zero utility only raw dmg it dosnt look like.
As it's part of the upcoming build, could I ask that you relook at Barkshield. The Barkshield layers are removed by trivial amounts of damage so the enchant needs something else for it to be attractive. Alternatively relook at the manner with which the layers are removed. Increasing the dmg that the layers can absorb is only part of the story. Tnx
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
As it's part of the upcoming build, could I ask that you relook at Barkshield. The Barkshield layers are removed by trivial amounts of damage so the enchant needs something else for it to be attractive. Alternatively relook at the manner with which the layers are removed. Increasing the dmg that the layers can absorb is only part of the story. Tnx
you mean although one charge is 20k if some one hits you for say 1000 damage it removes a charge?
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
As it's part of the upcoming build, could I ask that you relook at Barkshield. The Barkshield layers are removed by trivial amounts of damage so the enchant needs something else for it to be attractive. Alternatively relook at the manner with which the layers are removed. Increasing the dmg that the layers can absorb is only part of the story. Tnx
Maybe 5% or more in damage taken would remove a charge.
Update: I just checked in a fix that should let a Control Wizard get to 6 Chill Stacks even with a T. Bilethorn.
The issue was that both Chill and the Bilethorn slow (along with all the other slows in the game) are marked as part of a "RunSpeedPenalty" group. The game won't let you keep stacking things that are part of the same group (which is intentional; that's what the groups are for).
I added a mod onto Chill that does nothing, but counts as a Chill stack. If you are maxed out on RunSpeedPenalty, you can still add +1 "stack of nothing" and make progress on your Chill count (but you won't get the extra slow -- again, that's intended).
Hopefully this will solve @thefabricant's problem without making CW's super-powered in some other way. Please let me know if you find any broken things CWs can now do -- it all looked good to me in testing, but there's lots of stuff going on in the Chill system.
Comments
For the vast majority of powers the answer will be "once", so it seems weird to say that for just a few powers the answer will be "more than once, where 'more' is some unknown number". It seems like it would make better sense to have the answer always be "once", and tune the damage accordingly.
Are there some powers where enchants multiproc in a way that makes sense to people? If I had some examples of what people see as "expected" behavior, that would help me.
Aside: I haven't touched Vorpal/Dread. The plan is to leave those alone for this pass, so that they serve as a baseline. The no-multiproc thing is for the enchants that do X% of weapon damage. (Design note: it might seem dangerous to have things work so differently, but it's actually the opposite. If a power does 50 pings of 100 damage each, then having Vorpal proc on each would be fine, since Vorpal is doing damage based on that 100, so it would be the same as Vorpal proc'ing once on a hit of 5000. But if it's an enchant that is doing +200 per hit, then proc'ing 50 times on 50 hits of 100 is completely different from proc'ing once on a single hit of 5000. This is part of why flat damage adds are so dangerous -- if anyone remembers the weapon sharpening stones from pre-launch WoW, it was the same problem.)
I know it may be overpowered in certain situation, but please at least allow powers like icy terrain etc with very low damage but last very long to multiproc our enchant. TY for your attention.
I've build my CW around that and because i could get my hand in a cheap "perfect lightning"!!!
I reaaly hope my DOT or multihit skill's keep activating my lightning enchant, it works this way with underdark ring's stacks and twisted weapons stacks i dont see why it would work other way with Lightning enchant
The skills i'm talking about are:
Steal Time
Frozen terrain
Conduit of Ice
Doing thsis in another way makes no sense, if i have a vorpal sloted i will recieve my extra crit severity on every hit !!! why would the lightning don't proc on every hit ? or the flame stacks cont only one when i multi hit the target ?
Again is the same way the twisted set works and i cant recall anyone saying that is unbalanced...
I've posted based on forun posts only, i will download the preview again to see the changes tonight.
If i misunderstood something sorry in advance, also Sorry for the bad english !
Leliana C.W. - Opressor CW
Lelian O.P. - Bulwark Paladin
For powers that apply DoTs, I think only the first hit (which applies the DoT) should trigger the WE. But for other powers, like ones that create or apply some sort of entity that repeatedly hits baddies who stay in range, it makes sense thematically and practically for the powers to apply the WE multiple times.
All of the following apply a thing or leave behind a thing that continues to hit baddies.
Icy Terrain
Conduit of Ice
Storm Pillar
Bloodbath
Crescendo
Spinning Strike
There may be others (Pillar of Power or Plant Growth?)
For Oppressive Force and Steal Time, I guess we could have it only hit once, but it still feels like it would be thematically more appropriate to have it proc multiple times.
I get what you're saying about flat damage additions compared to % additions, but the reality is that only allowing these powers to benefit once will significantly devalue them compared to other options and reduce build variety at least in the dps category.
To lay things out plain, Robert (this is easier, so I hope you don't mind) has to try to implement something that won't be a huge disappointment while simultaneously trying to not create another Lostmaunster or Owlbear Cub.
But if you've got weapon enchants that can be applied by any damage source (at-will, encounter, daily, class feature damage proc, feat damage proc... and sometimes boon damage is affected by weapon enchants), AND you're scaling weapon enchant damage with power and buffs, AND you're allowing them to proc from every damage tick (the cooldowns typically only apply to secondary utility effects, remember), you're basically looking at doing that very thing.
Having DoTs not be able to proc effects more than once has a tendency to leave things pretty darned underwhelming though.
So while it seems very intuitively wrong for Imprisonment to cause your weapon enchant to hit 60 times (once per every check the game performs to see if the target remains imprisoned for the entire duration?), I think I see where Robert is coming from with a need to put some kind of upper limit in place.
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It is so ill conconceived that we have distictions like on hit, on power use, on when Timmie is in the well with a tuba or with cement shoes. I exagerate but maybe it's time to ask ourselves this question: what use do we have of a multi hit power that will just add a lot of numbers on the display with an added summ number if we could have the exact same result with a big equivalent hit?
Furthermore for the majority of multi-hit powers, the determination if it's a critical strike is not done on every hit but on the whole power, making the fact that thy multi hit rather pointless.
Time to clean this mess methinks. Crits, enchants procs, sets procs should be calculated on every hit as the intuition would see it. For DoTs on the other hand it should be calculated only once at the application of the DoT.
Ive also seen the Imprisionment "effect/bug" looks bad, the question is is not possible to turn over the enchant on this encounter ? i mean i shouldnt deal any dmg so is shoudnt proc any enchantment also...
I not worth destroy one entire build because we got a broken skill, the problem is in this skill not in multihits
Please look at this with care
Allowing multi-proccing on skills contributes to build diversity, which this whole enchant re-work thing is supposed to support.
Do not kill that. If something turns out to be broken, we'll make sure to report it. While imprisonment wasn't working as intended, it was still ticking slowly. It didn't turn that skill into a competitive one that would never leave our bar. The current meta is still "full debuff - high burst", simply because of the HP pool of the trash mobs being so low. Ticking skills often take too long and don't even have time to finish, therefore losing a lot of their potential.
Do not do anything too crazy with the way encounters work now or how things are procced. Those mechanics are basically the indentities of the classes, the reason why we pick them. I'd still say that you fine-tune enchants (numbers, enchant proc mechanics) so that there is something for everyone.
- Dread/Vorpal contribute to big hits
- Flaming/Plague Fire hit once and then do DoT
- Lightning/Fey add flat damage on proc
- Frost/Holy Avenger hit and buff/debuff
- ....
I don't see why the new enchantments shouldn't support multiple playstyles. Different classes capitalize on different types of enchantments, based on how frequently they can proc them. You proc quickly? Go for the flat damage. You don't have multi-proccing abilities but can stand there and constantly deal damage? Dread/Vorpal is the way to go. You spend a lot of time kiting around? Flaming/Plague Fire.
Now, you'd have to fine-tune numbers accordingly depending on what role you want the enchant to have. DoT enchants like Flaming/Plague Fire should have a small on-hit direct damage, but the DoT should be scaled up accordingly. Lightning/Fey should provide a reasonable on-hit damage. Frost/Holy Avenger seem to complement support roles, lower their direct damage, strengthen the support aspect.
I can see things from your perspective, you want to introduce a consistent way for enchants to work, because that would lay down the groundwork for future changes and make everything easier to predict and calculate. This is a good approach, looking at it from your perspective.
From the players perspective, this lowers the fun factor and makes the identities of the classes/builds worse. They all have very distinguishable playstyles. The people who created them originally did a really great job on that.
My advice? Go with the theme, make enchants support characters/builds.
When I say "no more multiproccing", that's not exactly right. Powers are built different ways. DoTs, for example, have a "tick rate". There's one power, it goes on the target, and it "ticks" every so often (2x per second, say). What I changed was to say "you only get to proc your WE on the first tick".
But other powers are built differently. For example, powers that put a patch of damage on the ground create an (invisible) entity that sits there and "attacks" nearby foes every so often. Each attack of that entity is its own attack, and can (potentially) have its own proc. (Even powers that "look like" you're "really attacking" are often built this way, such as the Hunter/Ranger power Rain of Arrows.)
So, for example, Icy Terrain "attacks" multiple times during its duration, and it (still) gets multiple WE procs.
So not everything has stopped proc'ing. I encourage people to try things out when the changes hit and see what they think.
But yes, as Becky says, we don't want to create another Lostmauth or Owlbear cub issue. As far as possible, I want to build things right mechanically, and adjust the numbers up or down as needed. Trying to improve the damage by allowing weird/buggy things (like the 60 procs on Imprisonment) will only be bad in the long run.
(Side note on Imprisonment: the reason it is "ticking" is because it's a toggle power. It actually puts a very short stun (.4 sec) on the target every quarter second, so that when you toggle it off it's responsive -- at worst a .4 second delay. That's where the 60 is coming from: 15/0.25.)
As damoc says, it's a bit of a mess. Cleaning it up top to bottom would involve rewriting more of the combat engine than would be smart (rewrite too much, and at some point you just break everything), but hopefully we can clean things up within the existing engine as we go. What's happening with the WEs is part of that struggle. There are other parts going on as well (many of you are aware of the various "X doesn't proc Y when it clearly should" bugs we have -- another designer is working on one of those bugs right now as I type this). But big picture, proccing (and especially *how often* one should proc) is something many MMOs have problems with, and I can't say that Neverwinter has figured out the perfect solution. But I want to keep making it better.
Here is a bug Sharp recently posted about entity-type spells on CW, btw
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1227659/bug-storm-spell-and-entity-type-skills
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Please don't end up nerfing dreadtheft or blades. They're already low dps to begin with. Even with WE multiprocs you'll see a GWF mow down mobs by the time a SW with lightning gets the chance. Damnation and temptation need all the damage they can squeeze out.
Mention rain of arrows? Do archers and combat really need to be more inferior to trappers?
So in the end this is about DoTs, but DoTs never multiproc'd to begin with.
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While trying classes i've noticed a lot of powers that alone didn't made any sence because they had none weapon enchant procs like slam for example, but be very carefull about power animation cancel/escape(like indomitable strenght, very usual of pvp players) and doted powers that with single procs may be very inferior to vorpal/dread and at last keep and eye and something new for lifedrinker, like i said before flaming dot life steals, i would rather carry a flaming for survival over lifedrinker, if 5 targets are being affected by 3 stacks of the dot each hitting by 10k( wich is perfectly possible), 15 attacks/second at 20% ls rate severity and incoming healing will translate into 43 200k life stolen every second and a behaviour similar to permanent life regain.
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I also think that if this change is well done, it could be one of the bests ! Less lag, more happy people.
The only question i'm still asking myself is : even if powers that create entity will still proc WE on each attack, what about powers that don't put DoT or entity but deals their damages over some ticks ?
For example : Steal Time, Ray of Enfeeblement, Dreadtheft, Blade of Vanquished Armies (not sure if this one creates entity or not),... Will they proc WE on each tick or only on the first one ?
Limiting those powers to proccing WE on the first hit would be a hard nerf imho so i hope that's not your plan !
Only the listed powers are buffed, but for instance trample the fallen has no effect on WE buffing, a class feature that is already very dependent on targets being controlled should be given that atention. Also, praticly nobody uses but....this is strange sometimes grand fissure deals no damage at all but still procs enchantments.
Edit probably grand fissure problem is related to elevation, or aparently it seems by hiting the dummies.
http://oi66.tinypic.com/nd347a.jpg
The new flaming enchant have lower dmg then the nerfed Feytouched also the flaming enchants dot aoe and main weapon dmg is not affercted by armor penetration as y can see on those pic.
Folowing the tooltip even the dot dmg shoud do more dmg then the new nerfed feytouched , but it not even near it . Feytouched deal 800 the dot of flaming deal 30 and the main weapon dmg deal around 600 dmg (i dont even want to talk about those 155% Aoe was around 1200) this is joke and on top of this feytouched and all other weapon enchants dont have this armor penetration bug but flaming is not affected by armor penetration as somone else mentioned in this thread (also affected live server).
One in all Flaming is the worst weapon enchant now its not even reach (cuz debuffs)Bronzewood.
rgutscheradev you told us you wanted Flaming to be the best cuz it have zero utility only raw dmg it dosnt look like.
It would be nice if all weapon enchantments worked for trickster rogues encounters "smoke bomb" and "path of blades"
Currently the only weapon enchants that work with those encounters are vorpal and dread.
In the past all enchantments worked with smokebomb.
Thanks for considering this as a viable option.
The issue was that both Chill and the Bilethorn slow (along with all the other slows in the game) are marked as part of a "RunSpeedPenalty" group. The game won't let you keep stacking things that are part of the same group (which is intentional; that's what the groups are for).
I added a mod onto Chill that does nothing, but counts as a Chill stack. If you are maxed out on RunSpeedPenalty, you can still add +1 "stack of nothing" and make progress on your Chill count (but you won't get the extra slow -- again, that's intended).
Hopefully this will solve @thefabricant's problem without making CW's super-powered in some other way. Please let me know if you find any broken things CWs can now do -- it all looked good to me in testing, but there's lots of stuff going on in the Chill system.