Making PvE competitive will decrease the player base in the game even faster than it is currently decreasing. By adding the type of competitiveness you are suggesting; you are steering the game into a direction where every "top" guild will be searching for the "omg leetz" players only ... this leaves every ... single .... casual ... player .... out .... that want to get the gear that you can only get from end game content.
Congratz you just lost 90% of your player base. You now have a PvE focused game with 2 guilds and a grand total of 40 people in each guild. This is now the make up of your game.
PvP is where competitive people need to go, however the PvP in this game is lacking in excitement only having one map and 1 play mode. If they added more maps and other game modes outside of domination .... PvP might make a come back, most likely not though, as balance issues are still the main problem.
This is just my opinion and how I have seen other games go down the toilet. I am sure there are some out there that think this post is the dumbest thing ever ... to those I say, it is an opinion get over it.
Ranking is not what I'm after. I'm after more variations. This game has become so repetitive. Sure, more challenging content would be nice, but we're just getting harder versions of the same stuff. It's a tiny improvement that comes only once every few months. SH patch was huge because it was something and long-term that a community of players can work towards. Now, that's out of the way and we're back to more campaigns.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
we can't all agree so it's okay that you're against the idea but like i said, some people will never change and from my point of view this will increase the fun. it doesn't mean that everyone has to participate, the rankings would just be for bragging rights, ego and possibly for other players to choose a guild based on real stats and not just words. i think there is a lot that can be done with this idea and a lot of fun and good stuff can come out it if followed through and get some more feedback on it.
Bragging rights=power. Power=discrimination. Discrimination=people being left out. I fail to see how this increases any fun. You can say that "it doesn't mean that everyone has to participate", but how do you think we ended up with these elitist hamsters in the first place? Exactly like that.
i strongly disagree with your discrimination claim. what you are talking about is already happening, the elitists are already here and they will never go away because there will be always someone new to take their place.
once more i'm saying that this will give the average player more ambition and stride to succeed at a higher lvl because right now many are not interested in trying out new builds or asking for advice, they just do their own thing and very often it doesn't work out too well. if dungeons are so difficult to put in the game because of different reasons then this ranking system will at least give us something else/more to look up to and not regard the game as such an undesirable grind place where most come to do their dailies and weeklies.
Elitism has always played a part in the game. Next time you are in PE stop & check out the LFG chat. A Dc can walk into any dungeon run they want. Good luck trying that with your CW. we really don't need to encourage the Flavor of the Month mentality.
Elitism has always played a part in the game. Next time you are in PE stop & check out the LFG chat. A Dc can walk into any dungeon run they want. Good luck trying that with your CW. we really don't need to encourage the Flavor of the Month mentality.
That is a part of any mmo really. So they give you the public queue. And then as DPS you have to wait forever to get in if you're on your own, so you wait. Then once in, lo and behold, someone inspects you, thinks you're too low they kick.
OP, you can't fight fire with fire. You don't give them ambition by showing them how weak they are. A competitive player will not care... they will compete...
The only way to strengthen the weak, is to include them in high end activities. Show them the ropes, and give them a chance. Right now, they don't get these chances, because it seems the elitists have taken over.
Probably the funniest (and most pathetic) example of competitiveness I see is in a 3 man ToS. There's often 1 well geared guy who races at top speed past mobs, glitches the door, runs to the first boss, wipes it in 2 hits so no mobs spawn, runs to the 2nd boss, does the same, straight through the door, triggers the 2 spiders at the bridge but jumps across leaving them for the others, kills the mob at the door then booms all the way to the end. Most following mobs break aggro and return to positions.
This guy then stands at the door while the other two, (often below 1k IL) attempt to hack n slash their way through all the enemies the 1st guy ran past.
I run this dungeon a lot on alts for the AD and the amount of times I've had to hang back and clear everything for a new guy just because the other one wanted to show off about how fast he can run it.
I've had enough competitiveness in this game. I'd much rather see cooperativeness.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
lol, talk about competitiveness they made mSVA pretty elitist. i see so many over 3k asking for group and no one bothers with them... and don't tell me about nSVA because the rewards aren't even worth the while...
lol, talk about competitiveness they made mSVA pretty elitist. i see so many over 3k asking for group and no one bothers with them... and don't tell me about nSVA because the rewards aren't even worth the while...
why is it so hard for 3k li people to find a group? seems like that would be the dream. getting carried by a 3k li person.
Since the game started. Every dps class will look to out dps-each other, healers to do best buffs/debuffs, tanks with buffs/end boss surivability and brag on how many enemies they have slained, etc. We all know how there is always that one dps class who runs ahead in dungeons to get most dmg and kills, but wheter it is for personal gain or for the right to brag i think there should be introduced a system which will encourage this even more. I can tell you right now that it will make many dps classes who right now don't have a good build and can't be bothered to improve that this competitive edge will wake them up, if not all of them at least half
Hmm . . . you've lost me now. the only good about people rushing ahead on a glory crusade is when they die. Sometimes when I'm tanking if I think there might be a humiliating death about to occur, I'll sit back and wait. If it does, I'll go in aggro all the mobs and "No Rez for you!!!" bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha suffer in yer jocks bwahahahahahahahahah
Alright there mr tank. Im just gonna go ahead and solo the dungeon before you arrive.
I run ahead simply because i dont need a tank unless i do FBI/MSVA or last boss in CN. Call me an elitist if u want, but i dont need u to begin with.
Lord Killington, enough said.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,118Arc User
...unless you're doing FBI/MSVA or facing Orcus. And since you can't get there alone, yes, you do need a tank. You're in a party. Act like it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
@wilswils I assume you're a high specced GWF? As such yes, you won't need a tank in most T2's. The only time I have an issue with this is when they run past adds who then return to their position, only to take on the support and thus hold them up even more. If you're clearing the adds on the way then fine.
I do hope that Cryptic wake up to this problem though. And it is a problem because it's ruining game mechanics in dungeons that are still supposed to be a group effort. Due to recent class changes and power increases we are heading toward a situation where everyone will only roll a GWF. The last time this happened was with the CW and the answer from the devs was to nerf the class into the floor.
As I've stated previously, I believe the answer is to completely remove lifesteal from the game. It's a perverse mechanic that has no place in D&D for most classes. It is the biggest factor in reducing the need for healers and tanks, turning them into buff machines in an effort to remain useful. It also negates the need for CC, which has impacted on the usefulness of the CW, TR and HR. Without Lifesteal, dps classes would stick closer to healers/tanks/debuffers and balance would be restored without nerfing damage output.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
They just need to create dungeon tiers with item level brackets. You only really need a tank for FBI (don't have mSVA yet). But this would require the whole rewards system to be reworked, isn't going to happen.
@wilswils I assume you're a high specced GWF? As such yes, you won't need a tank in most T2's. The only time I have an issue with this is when they run past adds who then return to their position, only to take on the support and thus hold them up even more. If you're clearing the adds on the way then fine.
I do hope that Cryptic wake up to this problem though. And it is a problem because it's ruining game mechanics in dungeons that are still supposed to be a group effort. Due to recent class changes and power increases we are heading toward a situation where everyone will only roll a GWF. The last time this happened was with the CW and the answer from the devs was to nerf the class into the floor.
As I've stated previously, I believe the answer is to completely remove lifesteal from the game. It's a perverse mechanic that has no place in D&D for most classes. It is the biggest factor in reducing the need for healers and tanks, turning them into buff machines in an effort to remain useful. It also negates the need for CC, which has impacted on the usefulness of the CW, TR and HR. Without Lifesteal, dps classes would stick closer to healers/tanks/debuffers and balance would be restored without nerfing damage output.
Yes im a high specced highly experienced GWF. And yes, i leave nothing behind except my group when i rush out on my crusades in dungeons. I live solely upon lifesteal right now. Guarantee 100% of my HP back on over 1/3 of my swings(41%) Lifesteal worked great before, CWs was needed because they provided great CC. Now there is nothing to CC and the best CC is to kill everything quickly.
@wilswils I assume you're a high specced GWF? As such yes, you won't need a tank in most T2's. The only time I have an issue with this is when they run past adds who then return to their position, only to take on the support and thus hold them up even more. If you're clearing the adds on the way then fine.
I do hope that Cryptic wake up to this problem though. And it is a problem because it's ruining game mechanics in dungeons that are still supposed to be a group effort. Due to recent class changes and power increases we are heading toward a situation where everyone will only roll a GWF. The last time this happened was with the CW and the answer from the devs was to nerf the class into the floor.
As I've stated previously, I believe the answer is to completely remove lifesteal from the game. It's a perverse mechanic that has no place in D&D for most classes. It is the biggest factor in reducing the need for healers and tanks, turning them into buff machines in an effort to remain useful. It also negates the need for CC, which has impacted on the usefulness of the CW, TR and HR. Without Lifesteal, dps classes would stick closer to healers/tanks/debuffers and balance would be restored without nerfing damage output.
First a call for a GWF nerf...
GWF offer no party utility. None. We do DPS and we can sprint. I'm sorry that offends you.
Remove Life steal...
In high level dungeons, boss fights, Raids, the number of baddies that are effected by CC is laughable. Life Steal didn't kill CC classes/roles the game did. Without LS what would any class besides those with healing abilities do while running their dailies? Pop potions with 20+ sec cool downs? (Don't recall I haven't used a health potion in ages) I do agree however that it has greatly affected the role of the healer. IMO it was the change to life steal that broke the relationship between DPS and Healer. It was fine the way it was. 15% LS meant you got 15% of your damage back as a heal on every attack. Now it's 100% of your damage with a 15% chance to proc. That means classes with really fast attack speeds will benefit more from the mechanic. This isn't the root of the problem though. The shift to life steal is the result of Defensive stats not mitigating properly. I purposely built my Classes to be tanky, 65% DR roughly, and yet if I walk into a mob in a dungeon it will get shredded in just 2-3 hits. There's nothing a Healer could do in that short amount of time to prevent his entire team from getting slaughtered. Also the Tanks in this game do not draw threat/aggro as well as similar classes in other MMOs. If they could then a healers job would be to keep the tank alive while he gets bombarded by adds and mobs. Thing is we have seen all this before in countless MMOs. Tanks tank, healers heal, everyone else goes glass cannon.. Content becomes underwhelming. We play the cards we are dealt.
As for the people crying about PvE not being competitive you are delusional and probably received too many participation trophies. There's plenty of reasons why people play video games or more importantly MMOs. If you're playing to escape RL and blow off steam after a long day and you don't really care about being the best or grinding for BiS gear that's totally fine. However, some people play this game to push the limits of their class, their skill, and to meet other like minded people who will help push those limits through competition. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE!! Your reason for playing doesn't have to be the same as theirs. It also doesn't make your reason the right one. If you run into each other in a pug dungeon deal with it or just stay out of pugs and just find 4 other snowflakes to play with.
IF they add anything competitive to the PVE element it should be statistics that ONLY that player can see of their own character.
Highest damage hit per power, best paingiver score per dungeon, stuff like that. Things they can try and improve upon but won't be shared except through word of mouth. Things that people already share informally but aren't recorded.
Then they can compete with themselves or the like-minded. I find people don't care to share these things for the most part.
competitiveness isnt all its cracked up to be. the only way to make it worth it is to put very good rewards behind it. which then people have a issue with because they cant obtain those rewards unable to complete the content. and then youll find classes becoming useless because they arent perfect for the job. ex gwf and cw are the only dps classes needed. hr and warlock seem to be forgotten in most places. at least i have to pug most content. most groups i see refuse to take me as a hr already.
a GWF nerf would make the class obsolete im afraid. And to be honest, GWF doesnt do that much damage. A proper built TR/HR can beat a BIS GWF in a dungeon.
Lord Killington, enough said.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
a GWF nerf would make the class obsolete im afraid. And to be honest, GWF doesnt do that much damage. A proper built TR/HR can beat a BIS GWF in a dungeon.
A proper built TR wont beat reliably a Proper build GWF when both BiS and with the same buffs, including elixirs, potions and all that. Especially in a proper buffed group.
Or let me rephrase, for the best TRs out there that I saw, and there are amazing TRs, there is always a GWF that can outdps.
"GWF doesnt do that much damage." I have no clue what GWFs you saw... I saw 5minutes eSVAs....
(I'm not saying to nerf or not nerf, or whatever)
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,118Arc User
...unless you're doing FBI/MSVA or facing Orcus. And since you can't get there alone, yes, you do need a tank. You're in a party. Act like it.
Actually. The only 3 occasions i need a tank is FBI, MSVA and Orcus, even though i've solo'd it. So your argument is invalid sir.
Really? Managed to get in all by yourself? If you can't get in the front door alone you cannot solo it no matter how you try to spin it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
@wilswils I assume you're a high specced GWF? As such yes, you won't need a tank in most T2's. The only time I have an issue with this is when they run past adds who then return to their position, only to take on the support and thus hold them up even more. If you're clearing the adds on the way then fine.
I do hope that Cryptic wake up to this problem though. And it is a problem because it's ruining game mechanics in dungeons that are still supposed to be a group effort. Due to recent class changes and power increases we are heading toward a situation where everyone will only roll a GWF. The last time this happened was with the CW and the answer from the devs was to nerf the class into the floor.
As I've stated previously, I believe the answer is to completely remove lifesteal from the game. It's a perverse mechanic that has no place in D&D for most classes. It is the biggest factor in reducing the need for healers and tanks, turning them into buff machines in an effort to remain useful. It also negates the need for CC, which has impacted on the usefulness of the CW, TR and HR. Without Lifesteal, dps classes would stick closer to healers/tanks/debuffers and balance would be restored without nerfing damage output.
First a call for a GWF nerf...
GWF offer no party utility. None. We do DPS and we can sprint. I'm sorry that offends you.
Remove Life steal...
In high level dungeons, boss fights, Raids, the number of baddies that are effected by CC is laughable. Life Steal didn't kill CC classes/roles the game did. Without LS what would any class besides those with healing abilities do while running their dailies? Pop potions with 20+ sec cool downs? (Don't recall I haven't used a health potion in ages) I do agree however that it has greatly affected the role of the healer. IMO it was the change to life steal that broke the relationship between DPS and Healer. It was fine the way it was. 15% LS meant you got 15% of your damage back as a heal on every attack. Now it's 100% of your damage with a 15% chance to proc. That means classes with really fast attack speeds will benefit more from the mechanic. This isn't the root of the problem though. The shift to life steal is the result of Defensive stats not mitigating properly. I purposely built my Classes to be tanky, 65% DR roughly, and yet if I walk into a mob in a dungeon it will get shredded in just 2-3 hits. There's nothing a Healer could do in that short amount of time to prevent his entire team from getting slaughtered. Also the Tanks in this game do not draw threat/aggro as well as similar classes in other MMOs. If they could then a healers job would be to keep the tank alive while he gets bombarded by adds and mobs. Thing is we have seen all this before in countless MMOs. Tanks tank, healers heal, everyone else goes glass cannon.. Content becomes underwhelming. We play the cards we are dealt.
As for the people crying about PvE not being competitive you are delusional and probably received too many participation trophies. There's plenty of reasons why people play video games or more importantly MMOs. If you're playing to escape RL and blow off steam after a long day and you don't really care about being the best or grinding for BiS gear that's totally fine. However, some people play this game to push the limits of their class, their skill, and to meet other like minded people who will help push those limits through competition. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE!! Your reason for playing doesn't have to be the same as theirs. It also doesn't make your reason the right one. If you run into each other in a pug dungeon deal with it or just stay out of pugs and just find 4 other snowflakes to play with.
lol calm down I didn't call for a GWF nerf or complain about their ability or express any offence, I said that (imo) they need to get rid of lifesteal to revalidate healing and tank DR.
I also said that Cryptics answer when the CW became the 'NW Superclass' was to nerf it significantly and implied that the removal of lifesteal would help to avoid them taking this course with the GWF because it would remove their immortality without impacting on their damage output.
On the point of doing dailies - there's a very simple answer: companions. There's a reason most DPS classes run with a summoned striker companion (apart from fast procs); they don't need external healing at all.
I run 4 dps classes (including GWF) and none of them need external healing at all. Sure, the occasional blast of healing in a T2 is helpful but most of the time lifesteal handles everything. bear in mind that for most solo dailies any dps over 2.8k barely takes any damage anyway and >800pts in Regen would get them back to max in a few seconds once combat is finished. For anyone having trouble, running a Battlefield Medic or Angel of Protection would be sufficient to restore balance.
The problem is that most people are so invested in their class, they are opposed to absolutely anything that they think will negatively affect them, even when that change would have a positive impact on the overall game experience.
I do agree on the point that npc enemy damage output in epic dungeons is still ridiculous. Imo it needs to be based around an average of 10k damage received against a player with 40% DR. This would encourage players to stack higher defence/deflect but also give healers sufficient time to keep players on their feet (and make HoT skills relevant).
Make no mistake - there is a distinct possibility that Cryptic will nerf the GWF UNLESS the balance is restored by OTHER MEANS. The devs have a terrible track record for over-nerfing and ruining classes and I think it's in our interests to put better options out there.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@armadeonx "there is a distinct possibility that Cryptic will nerf the GWF UNLESS the balance is restored by OTHER MEANS. The devs have a terrible track record for over-nerfing and ruining classes." No argument with the latter statement. I don't think a single SW or Palladin fan would disagree.
But GWF are not nearly as OP now as they were during that perma-unstoppable period. Could you link evidence (a dev or CM post ) suggesting an inevitable GWF nerf?
Agree that systemic changes are better then nerfs. But PvE competition is NOT the answer.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Make no mistake - there is a distinct possibility that Cryptic will nerf the GWF UNLESS the balance is restored by OTHER MEANS. The devs have a terrible track record for over-nerfing and ruining classes and I think it's in our interests to put better options out there.
This quote above is a shining example of good brain use.
Also about the lifesteal: agreed 100%. Get rid of it. They made some headway when they reduced regen to out of combat only (remember when it was constant? lol my TR would solo dungeons when underleveled in white youth gear) but lifesteal is still a glaring issue -- maybe even more since the stat rework -- and something needs to be done. If you want to have healing during combat, there are plenty of options without LS/regen: potions, mount bonuses, companions... maybe even... player Clerics? Perish the thought!
I cant even imagine the amazingly long list of things that would start to be fixed in this game with the death of lifesteal. Man, what a world THAT would be. But maybe it is best not to trust to hope in these times. I don't want a GWF nerf, but it's gonna happen. Anyone who has been around long enough has seen this before, and it wouldn't be the first major GWF nerf. They killed the entire class for over a year after the last nerfbat assault.
But GWF are not nearly as OP now as they were during that perma-unstoppable period.
Could you link evidence (a dev or CM post ) suggesting an inevitable GWF nerf?
Oh come on, man... literally 99% of GWFs are specced as destroyers with the exact same feats and skill setups. You know how the devs make balance decisions, right? They look at how many players are using which classes and which feats and then nerf the HAMSTER out of the most glaringly popular ones. Get ready for destroyers to hit like wet noodles. It may not be tomorrow, but rest assured it's gonna happen. I mean, I'm doing my part by having a GWF specced as Sentinel, but I'm only 1 guy in a class populated by many thousands. My tiny little contribution to class balance isn't going to amount to jack squat.
getting rid of lifesteal would be difficult though. what boons in strongholds, enchants. regular boons.. how would that be addressed. a lot of money and time has gone into building lifesteal. if they got rid of it then boom.. a world of angry people. easier to nerf a class I'm afraid.
getting rid of lifesteal would be difficult though. what boons in strongholds, enchants. regular boons.. how would that be addressed. a lot of money and time has gone into building lifesteal. if they got rid of it then boom.. a world of angry people. easier to nerf a class I'm afraid.
Also 100% agree. There are a LOT of egomaniacs who would drown the forums in their tears if the lifesteal stat was retired. The "I quit" threads might even reach critical mass and go full Chernobyl.
HOWEVER
Given the track record of this game, and the sheer amount of suspiciously targeted decisions made by the devs, I have only to assume that the thought of such fallout would only embolden them. I am like about 87% sure that a majority of the dev team actively purposefully trolls the playerbase.
Dear Game developers (if you are listening), Please retire the Lifesteal stat and permanently remove it from the game -- maybe make some form of it a nifty unique thing a SW can do or something, whatever -- as such action by you will result in a thunderous and catastrophic whinefest on the forums afterwards. Think of the tears... the rage... the sheer blinding hatred and tantrums. You will love it, I promise.
Yours truly, Loth
Addendum: But on a more helpful note, changing the LS stat boons/enchants to control bonus, and maybe putting the CB stat on the same curve as crit and power and so on instead of being softcapped at 1000 like the other utility stats, or making other adjustments if necessary -- that would kill two birds with one stone. All the classes and specs based on CC might have a chance to be awesome again. All the gear with LS would need to be renamed/reworked too... everything named similar to "Restoring Gauntlets of Piercing" would have to be changed to something like "Dominating Gauntlets of Piercing" and feature control bonus instead of lifesteal. Picture it... it could be glorious.
I'd be one of the angry ones if they retire lifesteal. I would plea that they don't retire it. they should instead buff all the other classes to match gwf. lol. I'm tired of things being taken away or nerfed. buff don't nerf.
Comments
Congratz you just lost 90% of your player base. You now have a PvE focused game with 2 guilds and a grand total of 40 people in each guild. This is now the make up of your game.
PvP is where competitive people need to go, however the PvP in this game is lacking in excitement only having one map and 1 play mode. If they added more maps and other game modes outside of domination .... PvP might make a come back, most likely not though, as balance issues are still the main problem.
This is just my opinion and how I have seen other games go down the toilet. I am sure there are some out there that think this post is the dumbest thing ever ... to those I say, it is an opinion get over it.
OP, you can't fight fire with fire. You don't give them ambition by showing them how weak they are. A competitive player will not care... they will compete...
The only way to strengthen the weak, is to include them in high end activities. Show them the ropes, and give them a chance. Right now, they don't get these chances, because it seems the elitists have taken over.
This guy then stands at the door while the other two, (often below 1k IL) attempt to hack n slash their way through all the enemies the 1st guy ran past.
I run this dungeon a lot on alts for the AD and the amount of times I've had to hang back and clear everything for a new guy just because the other one wanted to show off about how fast he can run it.
I've had enough competitiveness in this game. I'd much rather see cooperativeness.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Im just gonna go ahead and solo the dungeon before you arrive.
I run ahead simply because i dont need a tank unless i do FBI/MSVA or last boss in CN. Call me an elitist if u want, but i dont need u to begin with.
So your argument is invalid sir.
I do hope that Cryptic wake up to this problem though. And it is a problem because it's ruining game mechanics in dungeons that are still supposed to be a group effort. Due to recent class changes and power increases we are heading toward a situation where everyone will only roll a GWF. The last time this happened was with the CW and the answer from the devs was to nerf the class into the floor.
As I've stated previously, I believe the answer is to completely remove lifesteal from the game. It's a perverse mechanic that has no place in D&D for most classes. It is the biggest factor in reducing the need for healers and tanks, turning them into buff machines in an effort to remain useful. It also negates the need for CC, which has impacted on the usefulness of the CW, TR and HR. Without Lifesteal, dps classes would stick closer to healers/tanks/debuffers and balance would be restored without nerfing damage output.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Character: Vendetta
Yes im a high specced highly experienced GWF. And yes, i leave nothing behind except my group when i rush out on my crusades in dungeons.
I live solely upon lifesteal right now. Guarantee 100% of my HP back on over 1/3 of my swings(41%)
Lifesteal worked great before, CWs was needed because they provided great CC.
Now there is nothing to CC and the best CC is to kill everything quickly.
/Lord
GWF offer no party utility. None. We do DPS and we can sprint. I'm sorry that offends you.
Remove Life steal...
In high level dungeons, boss fights, Raids, the number of baddies that are effected by CC is laughable. Life Steal didn't kill CC classes/roles the game did. Without LS what would any class besides those with healing abilities do while running their dailies? Pop potions with 20+ sec cool downs? (Don't recall I haven't used a health potion in ages) I do agree however that it has greatly affected the role of the healer. IMO it was the change to life steal that broke the relationship between DPS and Healer. It was fine the way it was. 15% LS meant you got 15% of your damage back as a heal on every attack. Now it's 100% of your damage with a 15% chance to proc. That means classes with really fast attack speeds will benefit more from the mechanic. This isn't the root of the problem though. The shift to life steal is the result of Defensive stats not mitigating properly. I purposely built my Classes to be tanky, 65% DR roughly, and yet if I walk into a mob in a dungeon it will get shredded in just 2-3 hits. There's nothing a Healer could do in that short amount of time to prevent his entire team from getting slaughtered. Also the Tanks in this game do not draw threat/aggro as well as similar classes in other MMOs. If they could then a healers job would be to keep the tank alive while he gets bombarded by adds and mobs. Thing is we have seen all this before in countless MMOs. Tanks tank, healers heal, everyone else goes glass cannon.. Content becomes underwhelming. We play the cards we are dealt.
As for the people crying about PvE not being competitive you are delusional and probably received too many participation trophies. There's plenty of reasons why people play video games or more importantly MMOs. If you're playing to escape RL and blow off steam after a long day and you don't really care about being the best or grinding for BiS gear that's totally fine. However, some people play this game to push the limits of their class, their skill, and to meet other like minded people who will help push those limits through competition. YOU DONT HAVE TO AGREE!! Your reason for playing doesn't have to be the same as theirs. It also doesn't make your reason the right one. If you run into each other in a pug dungeon deal with it or just stay out of pugs and just find 4 other snowflakes to play with.
Highest damage hit per power, best paingiver score per dungeon, stuff like that. Things they can try and improve upon but won't be shared except through word of mouth. Things that people already share informally but aren't recorded.
Then they can compete with themselves or the like-minded. I find people don't care to share these things for the most part.
And to be honest, GWF doesnt do that much damage.
A proper built TR/HR can beat a BIS GWF in a dungeon.
Especially in a proper buffed group.
Or let me rephrase, for the best TRs out there that I saw, and there are amazing TRs, there is always a GWF that can outdps.
"GWF doesnt do that much damage." I have no clue what GWFs you saw... I saw 5minutes eSVAs....
(I'm not saying to nerf or not nerf, or whatever)
I also said that Cryptics answer when the CW became the 'NW Superclass' was to nerf it significantly and implied that the removal of lifesteal would help to avoid them taking this course with the GWF because it would remove their immortality without impacting on their damage output.
On the point of doing dailies - there's a very simple answer: companions. There's a reason most DPS classes run with a summoned striker companion (apart from fast procs); they don't need external healing at all.
I run 4 dps classes (including GWF) and none of them need external healing at all. Sure, the occasional blast of healing in a T2 is helpful but most of the time lifesteal handles everything. bear in mind that for most solo dailies any dps over 2.8k barely takes any damage anyway and >800pts in Regen would get them back to max in a few seconds once combat is finished. For anyone having trouble, running a Battlefield Medic or Angel of Protection would be sufficient to restore balance.
The problem is that most people are so invested in their class, they are opposed to absolutely anything that they think will negatively affect them, even when that change would have a positive impact on the overall game experience.
I do agree on the point that npc enemy damage output in epic dungeons is still ridiculous. Imo it needs to be based around an average of 10k damage received against a player with 40% DR. This would encourage players to stack higher defence/deflect but also give healers sufficient time to keep players on their feet (and make HoT skills relevant).
Make no mistake - there is a distinct possibility that Cryptic will nerf the GWF UNLESS the balance is restored by OTHER MEANS. The devs have a terrible track record for over-nerfing and ruining classes and I think it's in our interests to put better options out there.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
No argument with the latter statement. I don't think a single SW or Palladin fan would disagree.
But GWF are not nearly as OP now as they were during that perma-unstoppable period.
Could you link evidence (a dev or CM post ) suggesting an inevitable GWF nerf?
Agree that systemic changes are better then nerfs. But PvE competition is NOT the answer.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Also about the lifesteal: agreed 100%. Get rid of it. They made some headway when they reduced regen to out of combat only (remember when it was constant? lol my TR would solo dungeons when underleveled in white youth gear) but lifesteal is still a glaring issue -- maybe even more since the stat rework -- and something needs to be done. If you want to have healing during combat, there are plenty of options without LS/regen: potions, mount bonuses, companions... maybe even... player Clerics? Perish the thought!
I cant even imagine the amazingly long list of things that would start to be fixed in this game with the death of lifesteal. Man, what a world THAT would be. But maybe it is best not to trust to hope in these times. I don't want a GWF nerf, but it's gonna happen. Anyone who has been around long enough has seen this before, and it wouldn't be the first major GWF nerf. They killed the entire class for over a year after the last nerfbat assault.
HOWEVER
Given the track record of this game, and the sheer amount of suspiciously targeted decisions made by the devs, I have only to assume that the thought of such fallout would only embolden them. I am like about 87% sure that a majority of the dev team actively purposefully trolls the playerbase.
Dear Game developers (if you are listening),
Please retire the Lifesteal stat and permanently remove it from the game -- maybe make some form of it a nifty unique thing a SW can do or something, whatever -- as such action by you will result in a thunderous and catastrophic whinefest on the forums afterwards. Think of the tears... the rage... the sheer blinding hatred and tantrums. You will love it, I promise.
Yours truly, Loth
Addendum: But on a more helpful note, changing the LS stat boons/enchants to control bonus, and maybe putting the CB stat on the same curve as crit and power and so on instead of being softcapped at 1000 like the other utility stats, or making other adjustments if necessary -- that would kill two birds with one stone. All the classes and specs based on CC might have a chance to be awesome again. All the gear with LS would need to be renamed/reworked too... everything named similar to "Restoring Gauntlets of Piercing" would have to be changed to something like "Dominating Gauntlets of Piercing" and feature control bonus instead of lifesteal. Picture it... it could be glorious.