they'd have to do something to replace it. most of us have spent millions buffing lifesteal up and nearly all the guilds have it as a boon. it's represented heavily in the boons tree. there are other things people do than dungeons. I wouldn't want to have to have a healer or a tank with me to do dailies. if they got rid of it it's yet another thing that would be useless that people worked hard for. more than teh one class people are gripey with. Unless they fixed it afterwards; gave some comparable boon and didn't leave it just a useless tree did something to reimburse the millions spent on enchants some sort of exchange or something.. that would be enough for me to just uninstall the game for good. tanks are necessary.. and it really doesn't bother me that healers aren't necessary. do all mmos need to be identical?
and all these because gwf can run thru things. if you're going to nerf anything then nerf them. don't punish the whole of neverwinter. better yet buff all the other classes to be up there with the gwf..
Careful, firesidecat... if a dev sees your post he might want to bring up lifesteal removal at the next design meeting. I was serious about these guys being trolls and delighting in our misery.
Cat, I agree that it would have to be replaced with something decent or have some ability to compensate - such as a free Dark ench swap like they did with the lostmauth set items.
But think of this - if you moved your ~25% LS to ~25% DR you'd be taking a quarter less damage, if you chose the 1.2k Regen boon from Maze instead of the 5% CC resist, you'd heal up fast by yourself once combat is over. Add the heal procs from the likes of Enraged Regrowth & Elven Tranquility for random 20k heals and you'd be fine in most situations. Sure you'd probably use potions more but be honest, how often do you use them currently..? Personally I get tons for free and rarely use them so I end up selling them. I do think they should reduce the CD timer on healing potions though - maybe 5 secs.
Also as I said, anyone having trouble would also have the opportunity to run with a Battlefield Medic or similar but most people over 3k wouldn't need to. If I did this on my CW he'd go from 15% DR to 40% excluding bonding procs, which could take him to over 60% DR using a companion with just 1 defence rune slot.
The thing is, powercreep is inevitable and they are going to keep introducing new things. This means they will continue with the cycle of 'review & nerf' for all classes. You know they won't increase the abilities of others to bring them up to compete with the GWF - remember they could've done this with the Lostmauth set? They chose not to and now it's completely meh.
They have a stated goal of making content 'challenging' which is why the Pally has been bent over the nerfing fence several times recently even though it's less popular/capable than the GF - simply because of it's immortality abilities. AA on the DC will be next.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
personally as a person who mostly plays gwf go a head and nerf it into the ground. removing lifesteal doesn't actually help anything and has way to high of risk for unintended consequences. in fact for the nerf on gwf fighter I suggest outright replacing destroyer spec with something else. in fact lets go the HAMSTER route and replace it with what alot of gwf do anyway and make it something that focus on using lifesteal to increase survivability while doing damage.
It's true about AA too... the devs really do look at how many people use what and base decisions on that data. Pretty much every time another cleric uses AA it gets logged as one more nail in the coffin... every call for DC in chat is asking for AA clerics -- it's only a matter of time until the inevitable nerfbat frenzy. And they traditionally hit pretty hard with those things... expect AA to probably kinda suck after the plastic foam dust clears.
Yep I suspect they will apply a cooldown on its recharge similar to HG so DC's wouldn't be able to gain Action Points for 90 secs except via their sigil. That means DC's would be able to chain 2 then have to wait 90 secs before repeating.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Healing stones work but potions don't heal enough. I really think it's a bad idea to mess w lifesteal. So many unintended vpossible consequences as mentioned. Nerf gwf don't mess w the lifesteal imo I dunno about other classes but hr's lean towards low HP. Without lifesteal I'd die during battles not heal up after them.
personally as a person who mostly plays gwf go a head and nerf it into the ground. removing lifesteal doesn't actually help anything and has way to high of risk for unintended consequences. in fact for the nerf on gwf fighter I suggest outright replacing destroyer spec with something else. in fact lets go the HAMSTER route and replace it with what alot of gwf do anyway and make it something that focus on using lifesteal to increase survivability while doing damage.
GWF and Paladins seems to be the "easy-mode" class to play. I don't necessarily mean they are overpowered (although you can argue they are). I mean it takes the least amount of skill and you can pretty much button mash
Without lifesteal I'd die during battles not heal up after them.
But what if you had CC abilities that actually worked? (insert reference to control bonus rework to replace LS)
I bet you could make a go of it, even with low GS -- get a heal comp or whatever, use pots, gear more for defensive stats/HP... something tells me you could do it. You don't NEED lifesteal, that's just the addiction making excuses for itself!
I'm leveling a CW right now and avoiding all lifesteal on purpose to see how far I can get without it. How much you wanna bet that the squishiest class in the game can get all the way?
whatever. I don't want to see lifesteal removed from the game. end of. I'm not worried about it either. path of least resistance. they're not going to remove it. they'll nerf first. lifesteal is not not working as intended.
You see, I think this sums up the baseline disagreement we have here. Folks like armadeon and I maintain that LS is actually kerjiggering the entire team gameplay aspect of neverwinter. It may be a tough sell to claim that the devs probably intended for group dynamics to be monochromatic, obsoleting entire class trees, due to the lifesteal stat. That just doesn't sit right with me. I think Lifesteal got away from them as a side effect of general power creep, and the remedy they sought by making one-shots common in dungeons was perhaps a misstep on the designers' part.
But let's just agree that they probably (99.999999% likely) won't get rid of lifesteal ever. These devs seem to go all in when they make design decision "mistakes" (let's just call them what they are), and always the easiest path out of them is the one they take. Which, given their time constraints and resources available, I can't really deride them for doing.
I'm still gonna run all the content up to mod 10 without lifesteal. No twinking with high level enchants, either. Got myself a snowy faun from grinding simril fishing last night for my companion, and it's been a blast. Just cleared out the plaguefire ruins in the Chasm and I'm off to the nastier parts of Abomination Alley below to meet Quorthorn. Wish me luck!
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@thefiresidecat and @l0th4ri0, proper respect to both. Seems like an "agree to disagree" situation. Or, as the cultural elite (like myself) from Paris* say: an "empasse". *Paris, Illinois, USA. Back to OP's point, I have a friendly amendment. A PvE competitiveness alternative. What if the TEAM competed together as a TEAM to achieve TEAM rewards?
Instead of a performance chart showing which teammate is better then the others, how about a Teamwork Achievement Chart that results in increased chest loot based on "teamwork goal" benchmarks achieved?
Team Achievements No one died/only one death/only 2 deaths? 3/2/1 points. Full party arrived at all waypoints within 10 seconds of each other? 1 point Every player affected by a DPS buff at least once in every single fight? 1 point. Boss killed in Gold/Silver/Bronze time (as seen in Demorgogon)? 3/2/1/0 Points. Designated Tank damage>[all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Designated Tank damage>[50% of all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Team Score: 10 points= Everyone gets One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 9 points= Everyone gets 60% chance (each, separate RNG) of One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 8 Points = " " 50% " " 7 Points = " " 40% " " 6 Points = " " 30% " " 5 Points = " " 20% " " 4 Points = " " 10% " " <4 Points = " " 1% " " (Bad teammates deserve 0%, but the faint 1% hope is fitting RNG torture)
This creates a TEAM competition where the entire TEAM wants to work together. Buffers want to buff. DPSers want to BE buffed and want to DPS but not at the expense of their teammates lives. Tanks and healers are desperate to keep their teammates alive. GWFs will never, never run ahead of the party as that will cost the party 1 waypoint point. But that's okay. If she waits, her support teammates are motivated to buff her into a satisfying DPS frenzy. Also, she will get better loot at the end if she lets the tank agro and take all the damage.
In my fantasy PvE competition everyone is happy. Bad players are revealed early. Players are motivated to teach bad players rather than kick them. Players WANT to help each other. Loot is better and feels earned. And no one... no one cares who is the "Paingiver" . I'll take this teamwork fantasy over any "Paingiver Chart" every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Damn fine post dread, damn fine post. I've been to Paris myself -- I used to spend summers during my youth walking bean fields on my ancestral family farm in Chrisman. Nothing but corn fields and soybeans for miles and miles. lol Population:200
@thefiresidecat and @l0th4ri0, proper respect to both. Seems like an "agree to disagree" situation. Or, as the cultural elite (like myself) from Paris* say: an "empasse". *Paris, Illinois, USA. Back to OP's point, I have a friendly amendment. A PvE competitiveness alternative. What if the TEAM competed together as a TEAM to achieve TEAM rewards?
Instead of a performance chart showing which teammate is better then the others, how about a Teamwork Achievement Chart that results in increased chest loot based on "teamwork goal" benchmarks achieved?
Team Achievements No one died/only one death/only 2 deaths? 3/2/1 points. Full party arrived at all waypoints within 10 seconds of each other? 1 point Every player affected by a DPS buff at least once in every single fight? 1 point. Boss killed in Gold/Silver/Bronze time (as seen in Demorgogon)? 3/2/1/0 Points. Designated Tank damage>[all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Designated Tank damage>[50% of all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Team Score: 10 points= Everyone gets One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 9 points= Everyone gets 60% chance (each, separate RNG) of One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 8 Points = " " 50% " " 7 Points = " " 40% " " 6 Points = " " 30% " " 5 Points = " " 20% " " 4 Points = " " 10% " "
then your going to get groups that kick you after the first death or for not keeping up with the rest
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@abaddon#8285 "then your going to get groups that kick you after the first death or for not keeping up with the rest"
No sir. That old mindset will not work in this team-score system. If your friends kick you after you make one mistake then it's time to get new friends. If your LFG team kicks you after one mistake... great! They are bad team players and they were going to get a low score anyway. Anyone that kicks someone at the first error is so intolerant and selfish that they will score poorly in teamwork measures anyway. While searching for the non-existent perfect player they will self-select for "perfect" intolerant D-bags who are equally judgmental and miserable. They will fail. Even when they succeed, they experience sucks. Most MMO players I know hate playing with this kind of attitude. Successful DandD teammates show compassion and patience to each other. We all make mistakes. In my proposal, if a person makes a mistake the team is better off supporting them and finishing the dungeon. If everyone else doing their job they'll still get a reward. One mistake does not ruin the run. And how the mistaker responds (apologetic vs dismissive) tells you if you want to invite them back. Repeat or unapologetic mistake makers don't get invited back. Easy. No stress.
I would rather run 2 dungeons with a good-natured supportive team that makes a few mistakes (8 points - 50% chance of reward) then one perfect dungeon with bickering competitive <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-hats threatening to kick each other.
Life is too short to have stress while playing a game.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
People are more lenient nowadays because the PVE rewards suck, they aren't as pressured to perform well and a large contingent of players have left the game.
You see, I think this sums up the baseline disagreement we have here. Folks like armadeon and I maintain that LS is actually kerjiggering the entire team gameplay aspect of neverwinter. It may be a tough sell to claim that the devs probably intended for group dynamics to be monochromatic, obsoleting entire class trees, due to the lifesteal stat. That just doesn't sit right with me. I think Lifesteal got away from them as a side effect of general power creep, and the remedy they sought by making one-shots common in dungeons was perhaps a misstep on the designers' part.
But let's just agree that they probably (99.999999% likely) won't get rid of lifesteal ever. These devs seem to go all in when they make design decision "mistakes" (let's just call them what they are), and always the easiest path out of them is the one they take. Which, given their time constraints and resources available, I can't really deride them for doing.
I'm still gonna run all the content up to mod 10 without lifesteal. No twinking with high level enchants, either. Got myself a snowy faun from grinding simril fishing last night for my companion, and it's been a blast. Just cleared out the plaguefire ruins in the Chasm and I'm off to the nastier parts of Abomination Alley below to meet Quorthorn. Wish me luck!
power creep is not lifesteals fault. lifesteal is not the reason that power creep is happening. the original assertion was that gwf could run thru a dungeon without healers or tanks if they wanted to.. they are about the only class that can do that. therefore it's really hard to blame it on lifesteal or ALL teh classes should be able to do that right?
"then your going to get groups that kick you after the first death or for not keeping up with the rest"
No sir. That old mindset will not work in this team-score system.
If your friends kick you after you make one mistake then it's time to get new friends.
If your LFG team kicks you after one mistake... great! They are bad team players and they were going to get a low score anyway.
Anyone that kicks someone at the first error is so intolerant and selfish that they will score poorly in teamwork measures anyway. While searching for the non-existent perfect player they will self-select for "perfect" intolerant D-bags who are equally judgmental and miserable. They will fail.
Even when they succeed, they experience sucks.
Most MMO players I know hate playing with this kind of attitude.
Successful DandD teammates show compassion and patience to each other. We all make mistakes.
In my proposal, if a person makes a mistake the team is better off supporting them and finishing the dungeon.
If everyone else doing their job they'll still get a reward. One mistake does not ruin the run. And how the mistaker responds (apologetic vs dismissive) tells you if you want to invite them back. Repeat or unapologetic mistake makers don't get invited back. Easy. No stress.
I would rather run 2 dungeons with a good-natured supportive team that makes a few mistakes (8 points - 50% chance of reward) then one perfect dungeon with bickering competitive HAMSTER-hats threatening to kick each other.
Life is too short to have stress while playing a game.
times one billion but.. he's right the majority of the gamers are not like this. it would create a hostile environment as a whole
@dread4moor pretty sure this is one of the most civil disagreements on this forum. LOL. I'm not upset. I"m just tellin peeps what I think. pretty sure that's all anyone else here is doing too.
personally as a person who mostly plays gwf go a head and nerf it into the ground. removing lifesteal doesn't actually help anything and has way to high of risk for unintended consequences. in fact for the nerf on gwf fighter I suggest outright replacing destroyer spec with something else. in fact lets go the HAMSTER route and replace it with what alot of gwf do anyway and make it something that focus on using lifesteal to increase survivability while doing damage.
GWF and Paladins seems to be the "easy-mode" class to play. I don't necessarily mean they are overpowered (although you can argue they are). I mean it takes the least amount of skill and you can pretty much button mash
this is true to a point, assuming your have good gear for what your doing. gwf's damage is most about at wills and paladins heals come for basically everything. so button mashing willl get you where your going. of course doing so smartily and knowing what your doing will get you there much faster.
also both are high survivablity class, actually both are should to be able to be tanks and you can't have that as a choice without having some tankyness inherent in the class and there both melee so they need at least some of that just to stay alive... then again I see comtrol wizards who charge in melee quicker then me, even well pass the point were they should have been forced to stop, so it seems the other classes aren't exactly "hard mode"
@thefiresidecat and @l0th4ri0, proper respect to both. Seems like an "agree to disagree" situation. Or, as the cultural elite (like myself) from Paris* say: an "empasse". *Paris, Illinois, USA. Back to OP's point, I have a friendly amendment. A PvE competitiveness alternative. What if the TEAM competed together as a TEAM to achieve TEAM rewards?
Instead of a performance chart showing which teammate is better then the others, how about a Teamwork Achievement Chart that results in increased chest loot based on "teamwork goal" benchmarks achieved?
Team Achievements No one died/only one death/only 2 deaths? 3/2/1 points. Full party arrived at all waypoints within 10 seconds of each other? 1 point Every player affected by a DPS buff at least once in every single fight? 1 point. Boss killed in Gold/Silver/Bronze time (as seen in Demorgogon)? 3/2/1/0 Points. Designated Tank damage>[all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Designated Tank damage>[50% of all other party member damage combined]? 1 point Team Score: 10 points= Everyone gets One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 9 points= Everyone gets 60% chance (each, separate RNG) of One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token). 8 Points = " " 50% " " 7 Points = " " 40% " " 6 Points = " " 30% " " 5 Points = " " 20% " " 4 Points = " " 10% " "
I like this, though I would say it should have larger scale and include something for reviving a downed player that negates the "punishment" from alot of death cause somethings these things happen and to promote working with newbies instead of against them.
Yeah, that's false. You can search any class in the game followed by "soloing x dungeon" and a video will pop up. With skill and $$ all is possible lol.
GWF are easy and take no skill to play:
Most classes use at wills to buff their Encounters, the GWF does the opposite. You still need to time your rotations to maximize the buffs. This is obvious when you see 2 equally geared GWFs and one out DPS the other by a landslide.
GWF only have one viable class tree. Destroyer. You guys joke that we all have the same build, but that's literally our only choice. The other feats and paths are so obviously bad that to take Sentinel or Instigator you'd be gimping your build into the ground, and for what, to avoid a nerf? I've played a GWF since day 1 and have tried literally every possible build you can think of. I would love to be the unique stand out GWF running some sort of CC spamming off-tank but it's impossible. You can hit the DR cap with any path so why take Sentinel? Sentinel has all the defense feats in it including the cap stone that gives 40-80% DR while unstoppable, and yet no way to build Determination to get into Unstoppable? Anyway, GWF discussions should be left to the Class forum, but as a die hard GWF fan, the Class is seriously unbalanced in itself and the "one build" has been around since mod 4.
Keep in mind pve/PvP balance as well. Gwf is seriously bad in PvP in comparison to all other classes. Anything done to the Class pve wise would only hurt the gwf even further for PvP.
As for Life Steal:
The older version was fine. It became broken when players could hit for 100k damage and get 100% of that back as a heal. In theory it would have worked if everyone wasn't hitting so Damn hard. Now you just need 15% to see that it's overkill.
Competitive PvE:
They should add a Pit style solo dungeon. Where you challenge each floor and move on to the next. Each floor increasing in difficulty. Leaderboards would reflect who descended the furthest into the Pit. (Level + Time)
Yeah, that's false. You can search any class in the game followed by "soloing x dungeon" and a video will pop up. With skill and $$ all is possible lol.
GWF are easy and take no skill to play:
Most classes use at wills to buff their Encounters, the GWF does the opposite. You still need to time your rotations to maximize the buffs. This is obvious when you see 2 equally geared GWFs and one out DPS the other by a landslide.
GWF only have one viable class tree. Destroyer. You guys joke that we all have the same build, but that's literally our only choice. The other feats and paths are so obviously bad that to take Sentinel or Instigator you'd be gimping your build into the ground, and for what, to avoid a nerf? I've played a GWF since day 1 and have tried literally every possible build you can think of. I would love to be the unique stand out GWF running some sort of CC spamming off-tank but it's impossible. You can hit the DR cap with any path so why take Sentinel? Sentinel has all the defense feats in it including the cap stone that gives 40-80% DR while unstoppable, and yet no way to build Determination to get into Unstoppable? Anyway, GWF discussions should be left to the Class forum, but as a die hard GWF fan, the Class is seriously unbalanced in itself and the "one build" has been around since mod 4.
Keep in mind pve/PvP balance as well. Gwf is seriously bad in PvP in comparison to all other classes. Anything done to the Class pve wise would only hurt the gwf even further for PvP.
As for Life Steal:
The older version was fine. It became broken when players could hit for 100k damage and get 100% of that back as a heal. In theory it would have worked if everyone wasn't hitting so Damn hard. Now you just need 15% to see that it's overkill.
Competitive PvE:
They should add a Pit style solo dungeon. Where you challenge each floor and move on to the next. Each floor increasing in difficulty. Leaderboards would reflect who descended the furthest into the Pit. (Level + Time)
I know this is off topic, but... that "arena" style dungeon sounds like a lot of fun!
Maybe we could see an epic (5 man) and a raid (10 man) version as well...
And I'd like to see some loot that "doesn't" suck. Like the first few floors would reward, say, a few R5s or a Flawless Sapphire, but if you go down to, say, 200 floors, you get something like a Bonding R12.
Idk how to balance this.
Back on topic...
I would have said things that most others would have said, namely, tone down lifesteal and remove the charts.
0
greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,145Arc User
Blame the devs for power creep. The expectation that gear will have a limited lifespan is the basis for it.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Yeah when I referred to power creep I was referring to general gear updates from the devs, the numbers always getting bigger and bigger each mod... and LS got to be too strong as a result. When you are hitting for your entire HP bar worth of damage per swing/spell/shot/whatever, it's gonna be kinda OP to equate your damage with your durability. And that's all Lifesteal is, really... making Defensive Potency equal to Offensive Potency -- which leads to issues, obviously.
it would be pointless if it didn't scale up though. as it is a potion does nothing against overall hp and it's not like the newer dungeons don't hit that much harder. you still can be one shot.
yeah any class can probably find a representative person soloing a dungeon with a lot of money thrown at the toon.. but the gwf is the class that doesn't need that much thrown at it to be that effective in a dungeon. we (or at least I) am not talking about exceptions to the rule. but instead, of the norm. and yeah some things may seem like a cake walk if you have a bis toon.. and if you're in an elite guild it may seem like EVERYONE has a bis toon.. but they don't. it's still the minority. the majority is still trying to get by in a pug thru CN and failing badly. lol.
it seems to me like a group of people who run bis gwf are trying to make it look like it's not the gwf who is OP but instead something else they can point to and say nerf that not me...
lol. when really it's all about the gwf still not everyone else.
really I've ran without healers and with healers. we DO die without healers. we just choose to tough it out because the dungeons aren't fun. aren't that rewarding unless you get super lucky so it's better to get the buffs to clear it faster rather than without ever dying and at the end of the day it's still faster to revive someone than to run it without the buffs. I'd much much rather have a buffing dc than a healing dc most of the time. although I'd just as happily run it with a healer if that's who is available. I've only met a few dcs who actually prefer to heal. most prefer the buff build that I've known.
to me this really seems like a diversionary "OH NO don't look at the man behind the curtain" type shenanigan..
...to me this really seems like a diversionary "OH NO don't look at the man behind the curtain" type shenanigan..
LOL
Don't worry my friend, they are going to nerf the high holy hamster out of the destroyer spec. No one is gonna save the GWF this time, no matter what anyone says. 99% of GWF play the exact same setup. It is considered "gospel correct" to repeat "GWF has only one viable spec" ad infinitum, and that falsehood is gonna get the spec trashed in legendary fashion.
Play a Sentinel, GWFs... try it. Go Iron Vanguard and see what happens. Double mark stuff, have feats for marks, have feats for debuffs, use tanky style aggro-getting stuff instead of trying to milk every last bit of personal DPS. Discover that you don't need the Destroyer capstone to generate massive amounts of Determination constantly... don't theorycraft it away, play it. You will see that there is another world to the GWF you have been missing.
But what am I saying? Of course you will try the Sentinel. Soon enough it will be the new hot spec that was always good before the gutwrenching devastating class-murdering nerf to the Destroyer. LOL Bite down on that stick this is gonna be a rough ride.
Yeah, that's false. You can search any class in the game followed by "soloing x dungeon" and a video will pop up. With skill and $$ all is possible lol.
GWF are easy and take no skill to play:
Most classes use at wills to buff their Encounters, the GWF does the opposite. You still need to time your rotations to maximize the buffs. This is obvious when you see 2 equally geared GWFs and one out DPS the other by a landslide.
GWF only have one viable class tree. Destroyer. You guys joke that we all have the same build, but that's literally our only choice. The other feats and paths are so obviously bad that to take Sentinel or Instigator you'd be gimping your build into the ground, and for what, to avoid a nerf? I've played a GWF since day 1 and have tried literally every possible build you can think of. I would love to be the unique stand out GWF running some sort of CC spamming off-tank but it's impossible. You can hit the DR cap with any path so why take Sentinel? Sentinel has all the defense feats in it including the cap stone that gives 40-80% DR while unstoppable, and yet no way to build Determination to get into Unstoppable? Anyway, GWF discussions should be left to the Class forum, but as a die hard GWF fan, the Class is seriously unbalanced in itself and the "one build" has been around since mod 4.
Keep in mind pve/PvP balance as well. Gwf is seriously bad in PvP in comparison to all other classes. Anything done to the Class pve wise would only hurt the gwf even further for PvP.
As for Life Steal:
The older version was fine. It became broken when players could hit for 100k damage and get 100% of that back as a heal. In theory it would have worked if everyone wasn't hitting so Damn hard. Now you just need 15% to see that it's overkill.
Competitive PvE:
They should add a Pit style solo dungeon. Where you challenge each floor and move on to the next. Each floor increasing in difficulty. Leaderboards would reflect who descended the furthest into the Pit. (Level + Time)
you pretty much summarize what everyone wants for gwf like i said it will be done then we will all be happy build or no build i enjoy playing the class for i like to stand up to a fight not run from it. skill or no skill , i learned how the mechanics work just like any other class each player learnt what works or not.
it would be pointless if it didn't scale up though. as it is a potion does nothing against overall hp and it's not like the newer dungeons don't hit that much harder. you still can be one shot.
yeah any class can probably find a representative person soloing a dungeon with a lot of money thrown at the toon.. but the gwf is the class that doesn't need that much thrown at it to be that effective in a dungeon. we (or at least I) am not talking about exceptions to the rule. but instead, of the norm. and yeah some things may seem like a cake walk if you have a bis toon.. and if you're in an elite guild it may seem like EVERYONE has a bis toon.. but they don't. it's still the minority. the majority is still trying to get by in a pug thru CN and failing badly. lol.
it seems to me like a group of people who run bis gwf are trying to make it look like it's not the gwf who is OP but instead something else they can point to and say nerf that not me...
lol. when really it's all about the gwf still not everyone else.
really I've ran without healers and with healers. we DO die without healers. we just choose to tough it out because the dungeons aren't fun. aren't that rewarding unless you get super lucky so it's better to get the buffs to clear it faster rather than without ever dying and at the end of the day it's still faster to revive someone than to run it without the buffs. I'd much much rather have a buffing dc than a healing dc most of the time. although I'd just as happily run it with a healer if that's who is available. I've only met a few dcs who actually prefer to heal. most prefer the buff build that I've known.
to me this really seems like a diversionary "OH NO don't look at the man behind the curtain" type shenanigan..
This isn't for everyone, just the few..
I'm a GWF and I get beat by SWs, CWs, HRs, GFs, and TRs occasionally. All of them roughly the same ilevel as me. I also have a DC that I regularly beat GWFs on. There's nothing OP about a GWF. All GWF encounter powers are HAMSTER except the 3 we use to buff our At Wills and IBS. Life Steal works better for us than some other classes because we attack very fast with our At Wills. We also don't do extreme damage right off the rip because we have to go in, use daring shout, hidden daggers, build stacks of destroyer, go unstoppable, build stacks of destroyers purpose.. It takes a few seconds. And in a dungeon with other high DPS classes, those few seconds can mean the mob is almost dead before we get going. What are you even basing this on? You have no idea what companions people are running or what rank bondings. If you see a 2500 il GWF beat you in DPS it might just be he took his rank 12 bondings off his main to get some salvage runs in. I run with the same bunch of people all the time and we all know what the other is using gear wise. It's pretty damn even and every run we are all tied up on the damage boards. The only time I pull ahead is when IBS connects with a timed CS from a GF. As of late though, other DPS classes are using that same trick. It's dead even. If our survivability bothers you I don't know what to tell you. 99% of our attacks are melee, should we not have armor? How many Archers in the history books or in lore have you seen wearing a full suit of armor? Ranged classes = light armor, Melee = heavy armor. Even with that, not every GWF can take a hit. I sacrificed DPS in order to build my survival up for soloing. I've done dungeon runs where the other GWF in the group is constantly on the ground. This is silly. Everyone I know, has a level 70 GWF alt because they thought the same way you do, and they've all stopped playing them because they hated the class. They were getting out dps'd, dying constantly, and were extremely bored overall with the lack of versatility in the class.
By the way, using CN as an example is the worst. GWF are dead instantly in the Orcus fight without a tank to hold aggro. It's probably the easiest fight of any boss fight in the game if you're ranged DPS. I've solo'd it on my DC after a team wiped at the halfway mark. The rest of the dungeon is cake, regardless what class you bring. Any time I have jumped into a PuG CN it's a team waiting at the Campfire to fight Orcus. A GWF showing up is the worst possible class choice to get them through it.
It's fun... Sure. You can't be killed by 90% of the HAMSTER in this game. However, You do 50-60% less DPS. The group will hate you because everything is taking forever to die which only exposes their own inability to take damage. You don't reliably hold aggro. Yes, you can fill your determination bar with Daring Shout and Roar to enter "get off me bro" mode. You can't double mark without giving up either Sure Strike or Wicked Strike so you are either in single target mode or trash mode. There's no feats in the Sentinel path that are debuffs, not sure where you get that from. Also the feats are counter productive with the active abilities you would want to run as a tank spec. The only useful feats in the entire sentinel path is probably the mark, countless scars, and the + 5 AC points for slotting Weapon Master.
If you already have a tank Wtf are you even doing? Me being immortal but doing 60% less damage isn't going to make you feel better about your class, trust me. If all you want is to see us at the bottom of paingiver boards then fine, we have been there before. Our DPS is the only utility we bring to the party. Without it, we are absolutely useless. There's already 2 tank classes in the game. Everything pretty much has the ability to grant CA to the group and 2 classes can mark targets. What other functions or utilities do you see in instigator or sentinel path that you would like me to use instead. I'm sitting on 15 respec tokens.. Let me know.
Comments
and all these because gwf can run thru things. if you're going to nerf anything then nerf them. don't punish the whole of neverwinter. better yet buff all the other classes to be up there with the gwf..
buff not nerf. I'm so sick of useless things.
But think of this - if you moved your ~25% LS to ~25% DR you'd be taking a quarter less damage, if you chose the 1.2k Regen boon from Maze instead of the 5% CC resist, you'd heal up fast by yourself once combat is over. Add the heal procs from the likes of Enraged Regrowth & Elven Tranquility for random 20k heals and you'd be fine in most situations. Sure you'd probably use potions more but be honest, how often do you use them currently..? Personally I get tons for free and rarely use them so I end up selling them. I do think they should reduce the CD timer on healing potions though - maybe 5 secs.
Also as I said, anyone having trouble would also have the opportunity to run with a Battlefield Medic or similar but most people over 3k wouldn't need to. If I did this on my CW he'd go from 15% DR to 40% excluding bonding procs, which could take him to over 60% DR using a companion with just 1 defence rune slot.
The thing is, powercreep is inevitable and they are going to keep introducing new things. This means they will continue with the cycle of 'review & nerf' for all classes. You know they won't increase the abilities of others to bring them up to compete with the GWF - remember they could've done this with the Lostmauth set? They chose not to and now it's completely meh.
They have a stated goal of making content 'challenging' which is why the Pally has been bent over the nerfing fence several times recently even though it's less popular/capable than the GF - simply because of it's immortality abilities. AA on the DC will be next.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I bet you could make a go of it, even with low GS -- get a heal comp or whatever, use pots, gear more for defensive stats/HP... something tells me you could do it. You don't NEED lifesteal, that's just the addiction making excuses for itself!
I'm leveling a CW right now and avoiding all lifesteal on purpose to see how far I can get without it. How much you wanna bet that the squishiest class in the game can get all the way?
But let's just agree that they probably (99.999999% likely) won't get rid of lifesteal ever. These devs seem to go all in when they make design decision "mistakes" (let's just call them what they are), and always the easiest path out of them is the one they take. Which, given their time constraints and resources available, I can't really deride them for doing.
I'm still gonna run all the content up to mod 10 without lifesteal. No twinking with high level enchants, either. Got myself a snowy faun from grinding simril fishing last night for my companion, and it's been a blast. Just cleared out the plaguefire ruins in the Chasm and I'm off to the nastier parts of Abomination Alley below to meet Quorthorn. Wish me luck!
Seems like an "agree to disagree" situation.
Or, as the cultural elite (like myself) from Paris* say: an "empasse".
*Paris, Illinois, USA.
Back to OP's point, I have a friendly amendment. A PvE competitiveness alternative.
What if the TEAM competed together as a TEAM to achieve TEAM rewards?
Instead of a performance chart showing which teammate is better then the others, how about a Teamwork Achievement Chart that results in increased chest loot based on "teamwork goal" benchmarks achieved?
Team Achievements
No one died/only one death/only 2 deaths? 3/2/1 points.
Full party arrived at all waypoints within 10 seconds of each other? 1 point
Every player affected by a DPS buff at least once in every single fight? 1 point.
Boss killed in Gold/Silver/Bronze time (as seen in Demorgogon)? 3/2/1/0 Points.
Designated Tank damage>[all other party member damage combined]? 1 point
Designated Tank damage>[50% of all other party member damage combined]? 1 point
Team Score:
10 points= Everyone gets One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token).
9 points= Everyone gets 60% chance (each, separate RNG) of One Epic Gear + Scarce Campaign Item + a Genies Gift (universal campaign-advancement token).
8 Points = " " 50% " "
7 Points = " " 40% " "
6 Points = " " 30% " "
5 Points = " " 20% " "
4 Points = " " 10% " "
<4 Points = " " 1% " " (Bad teammates deserve 0%, but the faint 1% hope is fitting RNG torture)
This creates a TEAM competition where the entire TEAM wants to work together. Buffers want to buff. DPSers want to BE buffed and want to DPS but not at the expense of their teammates lives. Tanks and healers are desperate to keep their teammates alive.
GWFs will never, never run ahead of the party as that will cost the party 1 waypoint point. But that's okay. If she waits, her support teammates are motivated to buff her into a satisfying DPS frenzy. Also, she will get better loot at the end if she lets the tank agro and take all the damage.
In my fantasy PvE competition everyone is happy. Bad players are revealed early. Players are motivated to teach bad players rather than kick them. Players WANT to help each other. Loot is better and feels earned.
And no one... no one cares who is the "Paingiver" . I'll take this teamwork fantasy over any "Paingiver Chart" every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Back on topic: Love your idea.
"then your going to get groups that kick you after the first death or for not keeping up with the rest"
No sir. That old mindset will not work in this team-score system.
If your friends kick you after you make one mistake then it's time to get new friends.
If your LFG team kicks you after one mistake... great! They are bad team players and they were going to get a low score anyway.
Anyone that kicks someone at the first error is so intolerant and selfish that they will score poorly in teamwork measures anyway. While searching for the non-existent perfect player they will self-select for "perfect" intolerant D-bags who are equally judgmental and miserable. They will fail.
Even when they succeed, they experience sucks.
Most MMO players I know hate playing with this kind of attitude.
Successful DandD teammates show compassion and patience to each other. We all make mistakes.
In my proposal, if a person makes a mistake the team is better off supporting them and finishing the dungeon.
If everyone else doing their job they'll still get a reward. One mistake does not ruin the run. And how the mistaker responds (apologetic vs dismissive) tells you if you want to invite them back. Repeat or unapologetic mistake makers don't get invited back. Easy. No stress.
I would rather run 2 dungeons with a good-natured supportive team that makes a few mistakes (8 points - 50% chance of reward) then one perfect dungeon with bickering competitive <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-hats threatening to kick each other.
Life is too short to have stress while playing a game.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
times one billion but.. he's right the majority of the gamers are not like this. it would create a hostile environment as a whole
also both are high survivablity class, actually both are should to be able to be tanks and you can't have that as a choice without having some tankyness inherent in the class and there both melee so they need at least some of that just to stay alive... then again I see comtrol wizards who charge in melee quicker then me, even well pass the point were they should have been forced to stop, so it seems the other classes aren't exactly "hard mode"
I like this, though I would say it should have larger scale and include something for reviving a downed player that negates the "punishment" from alot of death cause somethings these things happen and to promote working with newbies instead of against them.
Yeah, that's false. You can search any class in the game followed by "soloing x dungeon" and a video will pop up. With skill and $$ all is possible lol.
GWF are easy and take no skill to play:
Most classes use at wills to buff their Encounters, the GWF does the opposite. You still need to time your rotations to maximize the buffs. This is obvious when you see 2 equally geared GWFs and one out DPS the other by a landslide.
GWF only have one viable class tree. Destroyer. You guys joke that we all have the same build, but that's literally our only choice. The other feats and paths are so obviously bad that to take Sentinel or Instigator you'd be gimping your build into the ground, and for what, to avoid a nerf? I've played a GWF since day 1 and have tried literally every possible build you can think of. I would love to be the unique stand out GWF running some sort of CC spamming off-tank but it's impossible. You can hit the DR cap with any path so why take Sentinel? Sentinel has all the defense feats in it including the cap stone that gives 40-80% DR while unstoppable, and yet no way to build Determination to get into Unstoppable? Anyway, GWF discussions should be left to the Class forum, but as a die hard GWF fan, the Class is seriously unbalanced in itself and the "one build" has been around since mod 4.
Keep in mind pve/PvP balance as well. Gwf is seriously bad in PvP in comparison to all other classes. Anything done to the Class pve wise would only hurt the gwf even further for PvP.
As for Life Steal:
The older version was fine. It became broken when players could hit for 100k damage and get 100% of that back as a heal. In theory it would have worked if everyone wasn't hitting so Damn hard. Now you just need 15% to see that it's overkill.
Competitive PvE:
They should add a Pit style solo dungeon. Where you challenge each floor and move on to the next. Each floor increasing in difficulty. Leaderboards would reflect who descended the furthest into the Pit. (Level + Time)
I know this is off topic, but... that "arena" style dungeon sounds like a lot of fun!
Maybe we could see an epic (5 man) and a raid (10 man) version as well...
And I'd like to see some loot that "doesn't" suck. Like the first few floors would reward, say, a few R5s or a Flawless Sapphire, but if you go down to, say, 200 floors, you get something like a Bonding R12.
Idk how to balance this.
Back on topic...
I would have said things that most others would have said, namely, tone down lifesteal and remove the charts.
yeah any class can probably find a representative person soloing a dungeon with a lot of money thrown at the toon.. but the gwf is the class that doesn't need that much thrown at it to be that effective in a dungeon. we (or at least I) am not talking about exceptions to the rule. but instead, of the norm. and yeah some things may seem like a cake walk if you have a bis toon.. and if you're in an elite guild it may seem like EVERYONE has a bis toon.. but they don't. it's still the minority. the majority is still trying to get by in a pug thru CN and failing badly. lol.
it seems to me like a group of people who run bis gwf are trying to make it look like it's not the gwf who is OP but instead something else they can point to and say nerf that not me...
lol. when really it's all about the gwf still not everyone else.
really I've ran without healers and with healers. we DO die without healers. we just choose to tough it out because the dungeons aren't fun. aren't that rewarding unless you get super lucky so it's better to get the buffs to clear it faster rather than without ever dying and at the end of the day it's still faster to revive someone than to run it without the buffs. I'd much much rather have a buffing dc than a healing dc most of the time. although I'd just as happily run it with a healer if that's who is available. I've only met a few dcs who actually prefer to heal. most prefer the buff build that I've known.
to me this really seems like a diversionary "OH NO don't look at the man behind the curtain" type shenanigan..
Don't worry my friend, they are going to nerf the high holy hamster out of the destroyer spec. No one is gonna save the GWF this time, no matter what anyone says. 99% of GWF play the exact same setup. It is considered "gospel correct" to repeat "GWF has only one viable spec" ad infinitum, and that falsehood is gonna get the spec trashed in legendary fashion.
Play a Sentinel, GWFs... try it. Go Iron Vanguard and see what happens. Double mark stuff, have feats for marks, have feats for debuffs, use tanky style aggro-getting stuff instead of trying to milk every last bit of personal DPS. Discover that you don't need the Destroyer capstone to generate massive amounts of Determination constantly... don't theorycraft it away, play it. You will see that there is another world to the GWF you have been missing.
But what am I saying? Of course you will try the Sentinel. Soon enough it will be the new hot spec that was always good before the gutwrenching devastating class-murdering nerf to the Destroyer. LOL Bite down on that stick this is gonna be a rough ride.
This isn't for everyone, just the few..
I'm a GWF and I get beat by SWs, CWs, HRs, GFs, and TRs occasionally. All of them roughly the same ilevel as me. I also have a DC that I regularly beat GWFs on. There's nothing OP about a GWF. All GWF encounter powers are HAMSTER except the 3 we use to buff our At Wills and IBS. Life Steal works better for us than some other classes because we attack very fast with our At Wills. We also don't do extreme damage right off the rip because we have to go in, use daring shout, hidden daggers, build stacks of destroyer, go unstoppable, build stacks of destroyers purpose.. It takes a few seconds. And in a dungeon with other high DPS classes, those few seconds can mean the mob is almost dead before we get going. What are you even basing this on? You have no idea what companions people are running or what rank bondings. If you see a 2500 il GWF beat you in DPS it might just be he took his rank 12 bondings off his main to get some salvage runs in. I run with the same bunch of people all the time and we all know what the other is using gear wise. It's pretty damn even and every run we are all tied up on the damage boards. The only time I pull ahead is when IBS connects with a timed CS from a GF. As of late though, other DPS classes are using that same trick. It's dead even. If our survivability bothers you I don't know what to tell you. 99% of our attacks are melee, should we not have armor? How many Archers in the history books or in lore have you seen wearing a full suit of armor? Ranged classes = light armor, Melee = heavy armor. Even with that, not every GWF can take a hit. I sacrificed DPS in order to build my survival up for soloing. I've done dungeon runs where the other GWF in the group is constantly on the ground. This is silly. Everyone I know, has a level 70 GWF alt because they thought the same way you do, and they've all stopped playing them because they hated the class. They were getting out dps'd, dying constantly, and were extremely bored overall with the lack of versatility in the class.
By the way, using CN as an example is the worst. GWF are dead instantly in the Orcus fight without a tank to hold aggro. It's probably the easiest fight of any boss fight in the game if you're ranged DPS. I've solo'd it on my DC after a team wiped at the halfway mark. The rest of the dungeon is cake, regardless what class you bring. Any time I have jumped into a PuG CN it's a team waiting at the Campfire to fight Orcus. A GWF showing up is the worst possible class choice to get them through it.
It's fun... Sure. You can't be killed by 90% of the HAMSTER in this game. However, You do 50-60% less DPS. The group will hate you because everything is taking forever to die which only exposes their own inability to take damage. You don't reliably hold aggro. Yes, you can fill your determination bar with Daring Shout and Roar to enter "get off me bro" mode. You can't double mark without giving up either Sure Strike or Wicked Strike so you are either in single target mode or trash mode. There's no feats in the Sentinel path that are debuffs, not sure where you get that from. Also the feats are counter productive with the active abilities you would want to run as a tank spec. The only useful feats in the entire sentinel path is probably the mark, countless scars, and the + 5 AC points for slotting Weapon Master.
If you already have a tank Wtf are you even doing? Me being immortal but doing 60% less damage isn't going to make you feel better about your class, trust me. If all you want is to see us at the bottom of paingiver boards then fine, we have been there before. Our DPS is the only utility we bring to the party. Without it, we are absolutely useless. There's already 2 tank classes in the game. Everything pretty much has the ability to grant CA to the group and 2 classes can mark targets. What other functions or utilities do you see in instigator or sentinel path that you would like me to use instead. I'm sitting on 15 respec tokens.. Let me know.