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make the solo pvp queue permanent!!!!

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  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    clonkyo1 said:

    pando83 said:

    BiS PvP GWF was a regeneration sentinel (immortals).

    I will make an exception on this answer: Trust me, If you coulnd't kill a High regen GWF back in mod 2 with a Destroyer GWF, you were doing things really wrong, basically, because you blew GWF's armor up like hell (usually, back in those days, a Destroyer would reduce like 60% of Sent's Armor dealing up to 3k per at will crit hit [which, usually, was 1 out of 2 hits] by just proning him/her on crit hit with "take down" and, on unstop + high rec, you didn't allow regen to catch up with the damage that you dealt on unstop) and far worse was when a CW was on the fight, because the GWF's armor went to almost 0, and even worse when HD was introduced.

    Also, just for asking, which were the BiS PvE and PvP builds for all other classes?
    Simple answer.
    First: it's well known BiS PvP build was sentinel. It was superior for a reason: destroyers were dying BEFORE they could even land the hits. May be you forgot this. When you're dead, you deal 0 damage. Now, if we want to talk seriously, we can stop pretending that destroyer was a viable PvP build/ on par with regeneration sentinels back in module 2. They were not. You might also stop trying to imply that I am doing something wrong. I am not. I know you guys already tried to imply that the issues i list are because i'm not a good player. Too bad for you, it looks like i am not.
    I already wrote how i got into top 40 GWFs in NCL. Did you manage to get into top 40 of a very populated class using an instigator build and PvE enchants vs overpowered negations and feytouched, playing over 250+ games with few disconnects? Yeah, NCL is not a good indicator. Still, i didn't do it with a BiS build. I did it with bad enchants and sub-optimal build for testing purposes. What did you accomplish clonky, to say i'm a bad player?
    My name is also in credits of a PvP build from a very strong PvP BiS GWF. So may be my knowledge of the class is not that bad. Where's your name?

    Not to brag, but if you want to keep implying that "i do something wrong", may be you have FACTS to support your claim.

    So to answer: Destroyer was not viable because it died so quickly that it was considered inferior to sentinel regeneration builds in PvP. Because GWFs in PvP are easy targets and can't go full DPS or they get melted before killing anything. It's the basics of the class in PvP. Your pretty theory about recovery destroyers in module 2 is simply proved wrong by facts. Facts are that Sentinels with regeneration were BiS, not recovery destroyers.
    In fact, the matter was not if regeneration sentinels (who were still called "immortal sentinels") could be killed or not. It was about this simple fact:

    I just managed to show you that PvP and PvE builds differ from more than "just tenacity and a few stat tweaks". With facts. And facts are that module 2 BiS PvP GWF was a regeneration sentinel because destroyers were way too squishy.

    Last: the discussion is about PvP builds being way different due to not just tenacity and a few stats. If you want to know about other classes you might want to check yourself. My purpose is done, which was to show you with an easy example that when you write that PvP and PvE builds would be on par without tenacity, you say a false thing.

    You didn't bring any valid argument, you just answered to oranges with apples:

    - matter: PvP and PvE builds being different for more than just tenacity and a few stats tweaks, regeneration sentinels being BiS in PvP vs destroyer PvE build being way behind due to lack of survivability= no time to deal serious damage. You answered talking about the chance for a regeneration sentinel to get killed 1v1 or 1v2 with a CW. Completely off topic.

    - matter: GWF as an example to show that there's more than just tenacity that makes a PvP and PvE build different. You answer asking about other classes' builds--->chance of a PvP and PvE build to coincide for a class, which is a different matter. Basically i told you and show you "see, there's more than tenacity between PvP and PvE BiS builds"--->example and you asnwer by asking me "ok, but did you know other classes in module 2 except GWF?"--->completely off-topic.

    I also talked about iron vanguard vs swordmaster. Currently, BiS PvP GWF is iron vanguard even if swordmaster can be viable (but still less effective and in fact, not used much in PvP), due to mobility (mainly threat rush)/ easy mark (TR again) and lack of PvP funcionality of weaponmaster strike (AoE that forces you to stand still) and flourish. BiS PvE GWF is, instead, swordmaster, due to the higher damage.

    So again: there's more than tenacity that makes PvP and PvE builds different, so what you wrote in your post is not true and is an oversemplification. You need, as i said, to also rebalance paths and classes to have PvE and PvP builds coincide or make PvP and PvE builds both equally strong in both modes but just with different roles. It's not the case now.

    You didn't answer any of the arguments i brought you. You switched to different matters to shift the discussion. Don't derail.

    The matter is: PvP and PvE builds differ for more than just tenacity gear and a few stats. Is it true? Yes. I brought examples.

    Answer this and stay on topic.
    Post edited by pando83 on
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,082 Arc User
    @pando83 I also told him (@clonkyo1) in his what is wrong with pvp poll that the problem is no dual spec
    that pve and pvp are just too different specs
  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    Randomising as many aspects of any game is the true path to achieving balance. Thus, a random que brings this game closer, but obviously won't solve all the issues. Endgame content also is usually very unbalanced. Being able to twink a low level character is unbalanced. Etc, etc.

    So why are the problems there/not solved? 1) PvP was an afterthought add-on that was not taken seriously in development
    2) the current state of PvP is a money maker

    A solo que is not a cure it just alleviates a symptom.
  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    kharneth -
    Not that there aren't problems with PvP under lvl 70, they just aren't as pronounced. If you and your friend que up 9 times out of 10 and can't even drop down out of spawn point without being slaughtered immediately, would you really keep playing PvP? Maybe you might make it to a capture point if you're lucky. When you first hit 70, try it, you'll understand the need for something to be done and solo que is the easiest/quickest solution as it already exists.

    It's not that premade team PvP needs to leave. It just makes more sense as an event or tournament to me, with rewards to teams that do well. Just my opinion. I really don't care if it is permanent if we have more access to solo q.
  • grampyrulz#4209 grampyrulz Member Posts: 95 Arc User
    I don't think the core issues that pervade this game can/will be fixed. If you mean all the nuances between class balance (not just between different classes, but in the paragon choices as well), gear balance, switching back and forth from PvE/PvP, being able to twink out low lvl characters, bug abuses....the prospect of a total fix is dubious at best. Anything that can be done within a reasonable amount of time treats only a symptom.

    And then, after all that is fixed, you really want to play domination maps forever?

    I will take the ibuprofen for my back pain.
  • kharneth#9586 kharneth Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    > @grampyrulz#4209 said:
    > kharneth -
    > Not that there aren't problems with PvP under lvl 70, they just aren't as pronounced. If you and your friend que up 9 times out of 10 and can't even drop down out of spawn point without being slaughtered immediately, would you really keep playing PvP? Maybe you might make it to a capture point if you're lucky. When you first hit 70, try it, you'll understand the need for something to be done and solo que is the easiest/quickest solution as it already exists.
    >
    > It's not that premade team PvP needs to leave. It just makes more sense as an event or tournament to me, with rewards to teams that do well. Just my opinion. I really don't care if it is permanent if we have more access to solo q.

    Actually,
    I think your solution of having a solo-queue permanently is the opposite solution. We should be looking at giving premades their own queue and letting the other queue be for solo-queue people or people in groups of under 3 or under 4. Not that solo-queueing isn't a solution, and you're right that it's easy because it already exists, but I think giving a separate queue for experienced/geared players would be better. Make a different queue that requires at least a party of 3, or even an entire party of 5. Make the rewards for winning way nicer than the regular queue. You could even make these games rated versus the regular non-rated games, so that players will get more out of their time by queueing like this.

    If my friend and I queued 9 times out of 10 and couldn't drop down without being slaughtered and I knew it was not my fault for allocating skills incorrectly or using them incorrectly, than I would quit the game. I'll be 70 next week and based on what I hear on the forums, I will probably stop playing. However, based on my experience in the game, it's as fun as hamsters, and I am having the hardest time imagining this scenario actually happening. Time will tell :pensive:
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User

    "A solo que is not a cure it just alleviates a symptom." -grampyrulz#4209



    100% agree! I know devs will touch PvP once and then ignore it 1 year again. That's why I'd like to see the core issues fixed rather than alleviate some symptoms. No need to waste the anyway little resources they put into PvP for solo queue.

    Which resources get wasted? SoloQ is already done, all that's needed is to make it permanent, which costs literally nothing in terms of time or manpower.
    It's been said that it does not solve all the issues of pvP, but it solves ONE ISSUE, which is the disparity that we see when premades of PvP guilds/ players face pug teams.
    The changes ayroux, you and clokyo proposed need way more time and testing. With the times of the devs we're talking about months, since they won't stop working on expansions just to fully focus on PvP. Class balance, gear rebalance, boon system changes/ PvP deeper balance require a lot of testing and effort to be effective.
    In the meanwhile, we should be stuck with current mixed queue that is, basically, 9/10 a pugstomping of premades on pugs or partial premades critically shifting the balance of each match?
    SoloQ proved to improve quality of PvP for THE MAJORITY of the players (which are not PvP premades), and can potentially bring more players to play PvP= more population=matchmaking working better.
    So we must ask for it to become permanent AND for the devs to work on deeper PvP balance in the meanwhile.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User

    > @grampyrulz#4209 said:

    > kharneth -

    > Not that there aren't problems with PvP under lvl 70, they just aren't as pronounced. If you and your friend que up 9 times out of 10 and can't even drop down out of spawn point without being slaughtered immediately, would you really keep playing PvP? Maybe you might make it to a capture point if you're lucky. When you first hit 70, try it, you'll understand the need for something to be done and solo que is the easiest/quickest solution as it already exists.

    >

    > It's not that premade team PvP needs to leave. It just makes more sense as an event or tournament to me, with rewards to teams that do well. Just my opinion. I really don't care if it is permanent if we have more access to solo q.



    Actually,

    I think your solution of having a solo-queue permanently is the opposite solution. We should be looking at giving premades their own queue and letting the other queue be for solo-queue people or people in groups of under 3 or under 4. Not that solo-queueing isn't a solution, and you're right that it's easy because it already exists, but I think giving a separate queue for experienced/geared players would be better. Make a different queue that requires at least a party of 3, or even an entire party of 5. Make the rewards for winning way nicer than the regular queue. You could even make these games rated versus the regular non-rated games, so that players will get more out of their time by queueing like this.



    If my friend and I queued 9 times out of 10 and couldn't drop down without being slaughtered and I knew it was not my fault for allocating skills incorrectly or using them incorrectly, than I would quit the game. I'll be 70 next week and based on what I hear on the forums, I will probably stop playing. However, based on my experience in the game, it's as fun as hamsters, and I am having the hardest time imagining this scenario actually happening. Time will tell :pensive:

    Actually, what the playerbase perceived was that soloQ gave the best results, mixedQ the worst, 2menQ something in the middle.
    Giving us soloQ gives the best results because by default mixedQ becomes a queue for premades, since pugs will all go to soloQ.
    In mixedQ you can have a full premade face, for example, a mixed 2-men+3-men premades. These premades are usually formed by geared PvPers so you'll have most likely a team that can fight better the 5-men premade or even beat it as seen in xsayajinx examples. On the other side, mixedQ gives a lot of room for full or partial premades vs full pug teams, which ends up in no-fun, one-sided matches.

    The truth is that full premades or 3-men/2-men premades right now are formed by PvP guilds or at least players that are used to PvP/ built for it. It makes sense to fully separate AT LEAST soloQ players from premades to have a rough separation between dedicated PvPers and random pugs. Dedicated Pvpers who go soloQ are scattered and we've seen that matchmaking usually manages to create more matches that at least involve a fight.

    These are the reasons why soloQ was more fun than current mixedQ or duoQ. This is what we can get now easily, while asking the devs to look deeper into gear gap and builds/ class balance/ tenacity to make PvP fun again.

    PvP as it's now is NOT anymore a money maker because players didn't pay more to get stronger. They just lefy PvP completely. Now the devs need a way to make players come back.
  • alana#7465 alana Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    > @wdj40 said:
    > Please, thread (posted a thread on Reddit too).
    >
    > I played last night and had a massive amount of fun for once, I was actually able to kill a lot of people and have some really good fun games. Makes such a difference seeing people play instead of sit for 8mins and do nothing etc.
    >
    > I had a few wins and a couple of losses, mixed teams and just generally had a good time, that has not happened in PvP for such a long time for me.
    >
    > Please bring solo queue in for good.

    Solo PvP is amazing. Please bring it back. I always solo and when i play against of 5 guys who are queued together they always slaugther us. Solo is much more fair and fun.
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    clonkyo1 said:

    pando83 said:


    The changes ayroux, you and clokyo proposed need way more time and testing. With the times of the devs we're talking about months, since they won't stop working on expansions just to fully focus on PvP. Class balance, gear rebalance, boon system changes/ PvP deeper balance require a lot of testing and effort to be effective.

    For once, you have said something with reasonable accuracy. And trust me when i tell you this: if we debunked the Mod10 changes for all classes in less than 4 hours, which was the band time devs took to upload the whole patch notes to forums, we will test those changes in less than 1 month almost for sure (we warned about Combat's HR and Conq's new meta almost before the 2nd day of the patch's release)... You should not disparage our knowledge on the matter.
    All i wrote is true or at least based on FACTS.
    It's curious how you stil ldidn't answer the main topic of discussion but you kept either avoiding it, trying to shift the matter on something else, or focused on only one argument (see your last post) and completely ignore the simple question: isn't it true that PvP and PvE builds differ for much more than just "tenacity and a few stats"? You didn't answer yet.

    And it's a very important point when we weight the impact that PvP premades have on matchmaking.

    So please answer the question of the topic. Come on. So many smart comments/ jokes about me with your sayajin buddy, and you can't comment on how PvP and PvE builds differ for more than just tenacity and a few stats? (which is what you wrote in one of your posts).

    Answer the topic of discussion please.
  • fatrabbitfartfatrabbitfart Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    For thoses who against solo queue. You guys dont get simple thing: we want solo queue. Its so hard to understand it?! So much bla bla things. We want option to play solo and not meet premades. You want premade? yw queue classic domi. We want solo queue to not meet coach potatoes from pvp guilds.
  • goodyearbaddaygoodyearbadday Member Posts: 59 Arc User

    For thoses who against solo queue. You guys dont get simple thing: we want solo queue. Its so hard to understand it?! So much bla bla things. We want option to play solo and not meet premades. You want premade? yw queue classic domi. We want solo queue to not meet coach potatoes from pvp guilds.

    You don't understand... they want to meet pugs they can roll over. If they only fight other premades, they might actually lose.

  • goodyearbaddaygoodyearbadday Member Posts: 59 Arc User

    @goodyearbadday You are right! Premades actually just want to fight matches they can 100% win, any competitive match would be no fun.

    MixedQ for the win please!!!

    It's not about fun, & it's not about competition. It's about win/loss ratio. 2 men enter, one man leaves. If 2 premades face eachother in a PvP match.... one team loses. If a premade faces a PUG team, it's a 100% win...

  • fatrabbitfartfatrabbitfart Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    @goodyearbadday I couldn't care less about win/lose & kill/death ratio. As long as I have fun the above aspects doesn't matter to me.



    Dude, we faced another team two times and beat them easily, the 3rd time we faced them I asked if they join for fun or if they need daily win & other pvp quests. It was as assumed the latter one, so we've just let them win, couldn't care less about that.

    Ohh how nice, and so sweet, u guys pitty other team and let them win. Cool story. When I faced same premade 2 times, we lose only match started, they waited us at camp fire and only u jump down u got killed. I offer trade caps, answer was "no trade for u". Yes all clear. I should queue for classic domi, and pray to meet "friendly premade" who will pitty us pugs and let us win for daily victory.

  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    enough talk about premades and builds, lets talk about the positive side of solo queue and why it improves the quality of pvp for the majority :)
    icydrake%20avatar2_zpsg7rp0xti.jpg

    Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
  • goodyearbaddaygoodyearbadday Member Posts: 59 Arc User

    True icy, let's talk about the positive sides:



    - You become a more skillful player by using the solo queue. Why? You'll find yourself most of the time solo against multiple enemies ON THE NODE. I appreciate that my team gives me some sparring rounds and watching me from above (pillars, bridge)



    - You gain more experience in PvP because instead of joining 2 games per day you will have to join many more times to ensure your daily win.



    - You learn to clearly differ PvE from PvP gear. You will realize that PvE gear has no Tenacity hence is pretty useless for PvP.



    - You will learn that you need nodes (points) to win the match but mostly no one except you knows about it, weird?



    - You will learn kills:death ratio > win:loss ratio.



    Finally it's the pugs who made me play premades and roll over them because at some point you get sick of the stupidness in solo queue.

    When pray tell is a PUG supposed to learn any of these things? When they get ROFL-stomped as soon as they come down from the campfire? Or maybe in the 0.5 seconds it takes them to get one shot to death as soon as they step on a node.

  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    Don't act like 10/10 matches are premades, please. I am tired of this misleading exaggeration.



    I, myself queue solo from time to time and hardly meet any premades, so do my guildies & friends (the majority of PvP community).

    I posted screenshots (that got deleted) of my match history on my HR showing you that you can indeed meet premades multiple times.
    If you talk about full premades yes, it does not happen THAT frequently but due to low population, when a full premade decides to farm domination, you can very well waste 1 hour or so meeting only them.
    I play soloQ mostly, with multiple toons, and my experience is that, instead, you very well meet premades or half/ partial premades most of the time. Bad luck? May be. But you can't base PvP on "luck". Matchmaking is there to balance teams. If you allow one side to preform their team you can't expect reliable balance. But rather, some players will be more lucky (or favored by matchmaking flaws) and get more "good pug teams", as clonkyo said, while others might waste time trying to get not a win, but even just a match that involves some fight and fun.
    Half premades do not make an exception. If you have 4 experienced and geared PvPers going PvP at the same time, and they can all gang up together, you'll hardly get a balanced match.
    It's, again, logic.

    My 2 cents about PvP solo queue:

    - it creates more balanced matches compared to mixedQ. Most of the players experienced this.
    - it allows all players to have more fun since matches do not insta-end in a no-contest or one-sided slaughter, but rather involve some fight
    - allows less experienced or geared players to enjoy PvP since the TEAMS are more balanced and, as a result, they can at least act as support instead of getting slaughtered instantly
    - point above: players new to PvP get to build some PvP experience in actual fight/ node capping, instead of experiencing an exciting trade caps for 10 minutes after being roflstomped in 1 second
    - makes mixedQ free of the evil low gear pugs that sayajin hates so much, since they all go to soloQ now, allowing him and his premade mates to peacefully form their own PMvsPM matches and coordinate perfectly in the mixedQ. MixedQ becomes, basically, a queue dedicated to the "true PvP circle". Isn't this a win-win situation?
    - makes more people join PvP since you don't spend 10 matches vs premades or half premades of PvP guilds to get 2 dailies done, but you can easily get a win out of 2 matches due to the more balanced teams
    - gives the whole community (and not just the small PvP circle) a chance to have fun in PvP while asking for class balance/ gear gap fix and all the other pretty things that will most likely take months or more to happen
    - it costs absolutely nothing. It's already there, all the devs need to do is make it permanent. So it does not take away manpower from class balance exc...
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    Guys these arguments are making my head spin.

    It's darn hard to see where the debate ends and the personal opinions start.

    In discussions like this I honestly don't think any of you are going to every be able too show "evidence" to support your claims. As stated over and over again all of the "evidence" is personal experience which can neither be proven nor disproved.

    In situations like this, state your peace and leave it. You can only say "is not" and "is too" so many times before it devolves into "You are stupid" and "No, you are." I have never felt this way about threads before but in all seriousness you all would be better off drawing lines and just creating a Forr and Against thread than having these endless circular debates.

    -Ambisinisterr
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Simple truth is, the vast mayority of the few remaining PVP player in this game seem to have no interest in premade vs premade PVP.
    And the sad truth is , that despite the fact that it should be a piece of cake to implement two seperat queues and just try to improve everyones gameexperience , cryptic is too slow or too hamster to just react and go one step forward, lol
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I do agree, we're discussing opinions and personal experiences. As it's been said, you can't prove if one or the other is the right one. Which is why we "discuss". Which is what we usually do. When the reply, however, is that i should accept someone else's opinion or experience as the "right one" because, quote at hand:

    It's up to you to accept that, maybe, out there are better players than yourself, myself included, and that you're not as good as you may think you are.


    someone self-proclaims himself "a better player", then there's no discussion. We just have different opinions (obviously the right one is that of the "small PvP circle" of superior beings :3 ).
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