Clonkyo, I don't think you're addressing the use of TeamSpeak to coordinate a 5 main overgeared, uber-coordinated pre-made. I'll await the wall of text with a box of popcorn.
1) Ok, I don't really disagree here cuz, it's a personal issue between U & Pando so, don't know/don't care
2) Your last line is correct, gear cap IS a part of the problem. However, remember where you are posting. This is a thread on how solo-queue needs to be made permanent. The only difference between solo-Q, & normal dom. is no pre-mades. If pre-mades were not a problem, this thread would not exist. Apparently, people are willing to overlook gear gap, to some extent, in favor of a pre-made free environment.
3) Here is a tricky one. I can see the logic in removing PVE boosts from PvP. There are a couple of problems with this. First, how far do you go in stripping PVE boosts from PvP? Boons, sure that makes sense. What about Mounts? Do you strip mount bonus'? What about Artifacts? There are artifacts available for PvP rewards. Should only those be allowed in PvP? Which brings us to our second problem with stripping PVE powers out of PvP... it further widens the gear gap. PvP boons are not really available to most players at the moment. Technically, anyone can get them, but in practice, unless you are in a PvP guild that is really not gonna happen. Meanwhile, anyone CAN get the PVE boons, eventually. By removing them, you are making already under-powered toonz, even more under powered. I don't see how that helps.
4) I think that sentence got away from you. You seem to have changed topic somewhere. You are the one saying that gear gap is the big problem with PvP now, but all of a sudden it is possible to Q up with lvl 6 enchants & gearz from 3 mods ago & NOT have your HaMsTeR handed to you? I don't think so.
5) This is a dangerous line of thought, " Of course a PvP player should have an edge over PvE players." Taken to it's extremes, this line of thinking would preclude pugs from EVER being able to compete in PvP. Which, thanks to the pre-mades, is kind of exactly where we are, right now, in the current state of PvP. PvP players win matches, earn glory, buy PvP gear & get better. PvP players trade glory for feeder artifacts for upgrading & get better. Mostly PVE focused (stats, gearz, etc.,) pugs are so far behind competition is not even an option. More often than not, survival is not an option. Which, once again, is why solo-Q is so popular... BECAUSE there are no pre-mades.
6) Yes, gear gap IS a part of the problem, BUT to say that pre-mades have nothing to do with the gear gap is a little naïve. Most pre-mades are guild based. These guilds have regular events to help their players lvl up & gear up as quickly as possible. Some guilds even have banks full of epic gearz for their members to choose from.
ok, so.... 2 final points. You are right, gear gap is an problem with the current PvP mode. Pando is not wrong, the pre-mades are ALSO a problem. Given the popularity of Solo-Q, most players see pre-mades as the bigger problem.
Lastly, it is possible to set up a pre-made of 2k, 2.5k. or 3k IL players. But why would you? Given the current matching system, I don't see any reason why that "under=geared" team would expect to meet BiS PvP guild pre-mades any less thn a pure pug team would. & the results would be the same.
2 - Until those players realize that the problem are not "premades" themselves but the "gear gap" that premade possess. As i said, i invite you too to make your own undergeared(should ring a bell to you too) premade team with any composition you like and win every match on PvP. I would love watch those matches for good. Stating other things are just BS.
3 - Yes, mounts powers and insignias too, among all other things. PvP should be played by "plain chars", this is, just gear, Weapon and armor enchants up to Perfect (IMO. Some players disagree on this and want the "Trans" but i think that some trans are just too powerful, but well, this is my own opinion.) anything else creating a HUGE gear gap should stay out from PvP.
4 - "from 3 mods ago"??? Im talking about Mod1 and at the beginning of mod 2 there, where PvE gear was the BiS PvP gear. ^^U. PvP is non playable, IMO, since mod 4.
5 - I'm not taking it into "extremes" as Pando did. The difference between a PvP char and a PvE char should be that the PvP char, in example, deals 10% more damage (again, example) vs that PvE char (let's say that this is brought via "tenacity gear" [on which, IMO, should be removed too and make all gear "PvE side" as it was pre "PvP gear" but, again, this is my PoV and only a few players agree with me on this])
6 - Read 2 again. Don't forget to rec those matches, pls, i want to watch how a under geared premade team will win all matches nowadays. If you all that certain that premades are THAT problematic, you should have an easy time disproving me with facts and videos.
"7" - Why would i set a undergeared premade team up? Because if i must take that "premades are a problem on PvP" sentence of yours too seriously, undergeared premades should blow up the whole PvP community. As i said "overgeared premades are a problem as long as they fight undergeared players, not overgeared ones. Like it or not. If you think i am wrong, then, again, read 2 and 6.
How exactly is forming an undergeared premade different from Q'ing as a pug? You're STILL gonna end up facing the overgeared premades more often than not...
+ For solo queue permanent. Solo queue was so nice. Premades are the reason why no one play domination and its obvious. Damn coach potatoes dont allow even cap to have some points. Ignoring pvp now and waiting for solo q.
I've been hearing this quite a bit from different people, Solo Q brought them back and now that it's gone they are drifting away from PVP.
Same here, I was not a big PvP player but the solo queue made it really fun and interesting... Until solo queue comes back I will just not bother with it at all
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Yes needs to be implemented. Even as a max iLvl GWF (which I am) you can still lose because of the random teams which is awesome! I had so much fun. I just found it entertaining how many "really good players" tried to sync que solo que dom after proclaiming that they only like to do que syncs and not kill pugs because its not fun.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
6 GAMES IN A ROW WERE VS 4K PREMADE TEAMS AND ENDED 1000-50 OR SO, WITH CAP TRADE AND NO FIGHT, and in a couple of games on my team too there were 3-4 4k players doing soloQ
Now please come tell me how you will strip those 4k toons so much to make their premade at the same level of the 2k pug team, and how premades are an issue only because of gear gap.
6 games in a row ruined by premades, 1 hour wasted. Just wanted to fight some pvP but well, premades must have their "fun".
Pando is right, I don't even know why you continue to contradict him.
No idea what my toon is now.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
+1 Pando, we are here to discuss how good this event brings, not how premades performs in normal queue. Definately look forward to have solo queue become a permanant queue
6 GAMES IN A ROW WERE VS 4K PREMADE TEAMS AND ENDED 1000-50 OR SO, WITH CAP TRADE AND NO FIGHT, and in a couple of games on my team too there were 3-4 4k players doing soloQ
Now please come tell me how you will strip those 4k toons so much to make their premade at the same level of the 2k pug team, and how premades are an issue only because of gear gap.
6 games in a row ruined by premades, 1 hour wasted. Just wanted to fight some pvP but well, premades must have their "fun".
I feel your pain Pando, you know what gets me the most upset, when a semi-premade comes in, they experience a chance of a loss (huge egos) or they face their alliance/guild friends and jump out and you the unlucky chap gets filled into an already lost match, no AD, no glory, but you can "enjoy" having the loss on your account. What a nonsense system. Pfff...
With solo this was less obvious and since the matches were more balanced, said things rarely happened.
Since it costs no Dev time or man power switching solo permanently on, why the heck they meditate so long over it, well i know why, but their logic needs an update, it would be a win-win situation for all.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
Tho heavy piercing damage classes (TR/HR) & heavy self-buffing classes (GF/GWF) benefit the most.
P.S. "Proper class balance and lowered gear gap (think GW2) are, from my Pov, the only things that can make PvP really good in this game. It would eliminate the need for SoloQ, as the only advantage a pre-made would have, is communication and maybe experience."
-Very nice point of forumnamesuxs from another thread.
Why not have both worlds, a solo for true solo players and less power creep. Ok i do dream, but it's not against ToS yet.
P.S: Better idea, why not make solo naked, so no boons, mounts, etc., all the power creep that divides and let normal Domination be a playground for whales, so they can enjoy their shiny new toys or why not bring back Gauntlgrym as true solo playground only, would be pretty easy to do actually, it's already there collecting dust or or or, i could go on, we all could, oh well...
Jesus we got a new CM, would love to hear from her, actually would love to see a true PVP professional Dev on board comment from time to time, just talking about that "improved communication".
Guys we are like old folks in a local english gents' club, we can talk all day and sip on our tea, but if we don't have a listening and well qualified partner then it's all just a place to vent, nothing else.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
New weapons are quite hard to restore (unless in the distant future lanolin and other reagents drop significantly in price) and then looks like feeding the old weapons to them won't be enough to refine them to near-legendary?
However, i disagree when you minimize the impact of just "being a premade". In module 1 the gear gap was not that big. But i tell you the big differences you left out when comparing a premade to a pug team of players with same gear/ low gear gap:
- PvP builds. Make a GWF in PvE build face Icydrake. Same iLvL, maxed boons exc... but different builds and gear setup (PvE GWF will however have PvP armor). Icy will win 10/10 matches hands down. Now translate it on a PvP game scale. 5 PvP veterans BiS build and gear vs 5 BiS PvE players in PvP armor. The second team won't cap. Not even once. Wait...may be they will cap home node if they all rush to it at the start. Want an example: in NCL Lazalia (best PvE GWF in game) struggled to get into top 40 (i believe he scored in between 35 and 40) while PvP GWFs with same iLvL/ gear were all in top 10 hands down. My GWF scored around Lazalia and it was a 2.7 GWF at the time, in Pure plague and G.Soulforged (T.Fey and Perf. Neg+ everywhere, Lazalia included since he used a 2nd PvP set with PvP enchants), instigator build (BiS was already destroyer by far). You get the idea about how much experience can do (and no, it was not "luck", with 200+ games played during the whole NCL, last one 30 minutes before the event ended).
- PvP players all same iLvL and boons, but one team with T.Neg-T.Fey or T.Elven exc... vs payers with, let's say, T.Vorpal and T.Soulforged or other PvE armor enchant. First team will win. Hands down.
Plus, you say the premade will have "just" communication and "maybe experience (are you serious???)".
Let's explain things right:
- Maybe experience: a PvP player knows when to dodge, how to dodge, how to move from node to node, which class face with his own class and build. A PvE player with little PvP experience? Not even close. They are not used to PvP fight, and it's not a "just". It's an ocean of difference and YOU KNOW IT. With my 2.6k HR i can take down more geared PvE players just because they don't know how to time attacks vs a dodging human player, and they don't know how to time their defenses. Does a PvE player know how to tail and spot a PvP TR? Answer: NOPE. A PvP player, instead, knows which encounter use, how PvP TRs move exc...
Players say PvP is "just gear". It's false. Experience and skills still make a ton of difference, and only when gear gap is 1k+ and with "certain BiS gear pieces/boons" skill and experience get beaten. But i can tell you that 2.5k+ alts from PvP guilds beat often, and hands down, more geared mains of PvE players/ normal players.
- Just communication: you're trying to tell me that the ability to insta-coordinate rotations and team efforts via voice chat, does not create a HUGE difference compared to a pug team where everyone moves randomly, trying to "guess" what to do? Or can coordinate via chat= stop fighting, type to your team, get back to fight.
You know far too well that the above elements are a BIG difference.
It's the exact same reason why PvP guilds premades ALREADY STOMPED IN MODULE 1.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
- PvP builds. Make a GWF in PvE build face Icydrake. Same iLvL, maxed boons exc... but different builds and gear setup (PvE GWF will however have PvP armor). Icy will win 10/10 matches hands down. Now translate it on a PvP game scale. 5 PvP veterans BiS build and gear vs 5 BiS PvE players in PvP armor. The second team won't cap. Not even once. Wait...may be they will cap home node if they all rush to it at the start. Want an example: in NCL Lazalia (best PvE GWF in game) struggled to get into top 40 (i believe he scored in between 35 and 40) while PvP GWFs with same iLvL/ gear were all in top 10 hands down. My GWF scored around Lazalia and it was a 2.7 GWF at the time, in Pure plague and G.Soulforged (T.Fey and Perf. Neg+ everywhere, Lazalia included since he used a 2nd PvP set with PvP enchants), instigator build (BiS was already destroyer by far). You get the idea about how much experience can do (and no, it was not "luck", with 200+ games played during the whole NCL, last one 30 minutes before the event ended).
Hi, just passing by to answer this. First, thank you for the kindness but please do not use me for this as an example. I have a very, very bad connection (I'm from Venezuela, one of the worst internet speed connections in the world and the worst in south america) and I got disconnected in far more matches that I can even remember. As you PvP guys already know, even if you were winning a match but you get dce'd then you appeared in Protector's Enclave (or anywhere else) with a penalty for 30 minutes and a lost match, losing too many positions (I was for a while in the top 10). Now, instigator build? I have never used it in PvP. How can you be so sure about this? My only interest during the NCL was to stay in top 40 for the mount and I achieved it, that was my goal. I was also playing with my SW and ended up ranked 12. I always did solo queue and my matches were against premades most of the times. If among my interests was to be one of the best PvP gwfs I would have tried a different approach.
So, using that ranking to point out how good or bad I can be in PvP or as a measurement of my skills/gear/experience is a complete mistake, huge one.
forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
edited November 2016
@pando83 Yes. I KNOW IT. However, there's a lot of well experienced PvP'ers who queue alone, and you are just as likely to be matched with them, as you are to be matched with a "noob party", or a mix of the two, when facing a pre-made, depending on how many are in the queue at any given time. Therefore; "maybe experience".
I'm not ever going to deny that voice comms is a huge advantage, and ingame voice is a good tool for that, but whenever I turn it on, all I hear is either this: https://youtu.be/_NDzeYYX4yw or someone who assume everyone understands their native language (usually not english). That being said, it is possible to predict where a player will go to if you suddenly see them ditch a node fight, and typing something like "TR go 2" hardly takes a long time. Or.. you can just follow them yourself, if that is the better option. I've been in "pug groups" who did manage to beat premades this way, so yes, sometimes it is "just voice com"
Just for the record, not all TR's move the same. Some are extremely sneaky, some are less so. But yes, you need a certain amount of experience to know how to track any of them.
Edit: Actually, I do have voice chat on, and just mute those who fit the above description.
Hi, just passing by to answer this. First, thank you for the kindness but please do not use me for this as an example. I have a very, very bad connection (I'm from Venezuela, one of the worst internet speed connections in the world and the worst in south america) and I got disconnected in far more matches that I can even remember. As you PvP guys already know, even if you were winning a match but you get dce'd then you appeared in Protector's Enclave (or anywhere else) with a penalty for 30 minutes and a lost match, losing too many positions (I was for a while in the top 10). Now, instigator build? I have never used it in PvP. How can you be so sure about this? My only interest during the NCL was to stay in top 40 for the mount and I achieved it, that was my goal. I was also playing with my SW and ended up ranked 12. I always did solo queue and my matches were against premades most of the times. If among my interests was to be one of the best PvP gwfs I would have tried a different approach.
So, using that ranking to point out how good or bad I can be in PvP or as a measurement of my skills/gear/experience is a complete mistake, huge one.
If it was due to disconnections and "no intention to rank high" then yeah, it's not a good example. But it was not to compasre "how good you can be in PvP" Laz. As i stated in my post, it's to compare how a BiS PvE build can perform compared to a BiS PvP build. It's not to say "how skilled a player is in PvP", but rather to compare PvE build performance vs PvP build performance. Since you're here and you experienced some PvP, you can answer this: with your BiS GWF in your pure PvE build and PvE enchants (vorpal exc...) how do you perform when facing a BiS PvP GWF? Did you meet for example Saber (using him as an example because he was very active) during NCL and could you fight him 1v1?
BTW, if you read my post carefully, when i used you as an example i was not comparing skills/gear/experience. I was comparing BUILDS and i was using you as an example because since you're pretty much the best PvE GWF in game, you're ideal to compare BiS PvP build with a BiS PvE build, in PvP. Not to say you were weak in PvP or something like that. Mainly to say "see, even the best, without a PvP build, can't perform like other GWFs in PvP build". Which, thinking about it now, might be misleading since you were using a 2nd set with T.Fey/T.Neg and may be you also respecced just for NCL, no idea.
@clonkyo and sayajin: nobody said it's premade fault if other players don't go in PvP with voice chat. You can also say that it's not premade's fault if the other players use a PvE build. But then you're now basically confirming what i said.
You must separate premades from pugs exactly because it's not just gear gap that creates difference. But builds and voice chat, for example. So, as i said, if you just fix gear gap you'll still have premades stomping pug teams the same as now. Just, instead of 1000-50, you'll have 1000-100 results. Premades must have their own queue, and anything else must have the choice to go solo queue. Because there's no way to make a pug team of casuals or, worse, PvE players, competitive vs a PvP premade. And PvP premade are not the fabled 2k teams of clonky, but ALWAYS geared and experienced guilds/ alliance premades from PvP guilds. As i thought, the reasoning you're doing sayajin, is basically this: "yeah, fix gear gap (more or less), but keep mixed queue, so when we will stomp pugs again nobody will tell us it's because of gear gap, but because of skills/experience/organization". What your solution will fix is only the fact that PvP players when criticized for "stomping" will be able to reply that it's not P2W stuff but the above factors. But i'm not worried about PvP reputation only or victories. So i'm not just letting that stuff go with a "not my problem since the advantage i have now is not P2W and i can brag about my victories now". I want fun matches. PvP guild premades create boring no contests. So i want them separated from casual players/ people who soloQ exc...
Last, some numbers: 20 matches in soloQ with my HR. 19 were 1000-50/ 1000-80 range of score, and were ALWAYS involved full or partial premades from big PvP guilds/ known PvP guilds and alliances. Matches scattered in different days, different time zones.
19/20
Even if 20 games is a little example, 19/20 is a pretty significant ratio which shows how much impact PvP premades have in mixed queue. Must be placed against other premades.
If you form a PvP premade, after all, it's to face another premade, right? Isn't this what PvP guilds always said? So it's even better if you have a mixed/ premade queue where no soloQ/ pugs
1) If you don't use voice chat and you're facing the usual PvP-guild premade, it's pretty bad. You team must "type orders in chat", which means the person writing them must stop fighting. And since in a PvP match you have to non-stop rotate/ move/ change strategy, itìs impossible really coordinate through type chat. On the other side, instead, the PvP premade will always be insta-reacting to every move of your team. All 5 enemies will know in real team what happens on other nodes, where enemy players are going exc... and act accordingly. Sum it up with experience and builds, and this "triad" becomes a factor as big as gear gap or boons.
2) Builds=/= PvP gear. I'm not talking about tenacity but BUILDS. Feats, stats allocation, and even weapon/armor enchants. Example: a BiS PvE GWF with 20k+ crit stat, T.vorpal/ T.soulforged(or any other PvE armor enchant), low survivability, swordmaster path (yeah, there are SM PvP builds but this one would be a PvE build) will 100% lose badly when facing any BiS PvP GWF. But they are both BiS. No gear gap. Still, a huge difference in battlepower.
3) Nope. You're just not following my whole point or failing to understand it...
4) Here i wanted you, thank you for stating it so clearly. The big difference between my point and yours.
builds can create a difference, of course, as voice chat does. Not PvP, either solo or premade players' fault that other players don't use it or don't build mainly for PvP, right?
You just stated that you don't care about lack of balance as long as it does not come from gear. Basically, you both say that all you want is gear gap alone to be removed AND the other factors that create no-contest matches to be kept. You both wrote the same thing: "yeah it creates a big gap, but well, not my fault". Then you're not looking for real balance in PvP matches. You just want PvP guilds to be able to still gang-up together to stomp the rest of the community. Too bad i'm not looking for something so cheap. But for fun matches where both teams have similar battlepower and even the losing team can fight back. What will happen in "your PvP" is that a PvP premade with voice chat will meet a pug team with a mix of PvP players, PvE players in PvP builds, and still wreck them big time. In "my PvP", instead, both teams would have a mix of PvP and PvE players and no "edge", allowing both teams to fight just through team play. Cause in mixed teams you can compensate the gap created by builds, just rotating and changing the matchups (teamplay). In a PvP premade vs pug team you can't do that, because on the other team all the toons are PvP build/ experienced, so if you have a PvE player it instantly becomes a 5v4 match.
Now it's clear that i'm talking about real balance with fun PvP matches, while you two are just looking for a cheap accomodation that still allows pugstomping but also allows the stompers to say "not my fault" (the same as it was in module 1).
Moderated to remove personal attacks/insults. Please argue with facts, not attacks.
Trying to bring PvE players to WHAT SIDE? There's a "side"? I'm saying that they must not be forced to face PvP premades in mixed queue. You are saying that no, it's ok if they become food for premades. In mixed queue, instead, they can fight other PvE players because the enemy team is not formed by 5 PvP players. I also stated clearly that i am IN FAVOR OF GEAR GAP REMOVAL and that GEAR GAP IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE. So again, what you wrote above I respectfully disagree with, just re-reading my previous posts).
I don't try to bring undergeared pugs anywhere since i wrote that both gear gap and premades must be addressed. You wrote, and clonkyo too, that voice chat and builds are a huge gap but "not our fault if pug players don't have a dedicated PvP build or voice chat".
Explain what you wrote then. You said that those elements DO create a huge gap but then you wrote "not my fault however" aka "i wash my hands of the issue, who cares".
Ok sorry. I don't give a HAMSTER about the circle of "true PvPers". And i don't really care about PvP guilds. In fact my idea, clearly stated, is that separate queues allows them to have their "true PvPers" premades in one queue, while the other is soloQ only to avoid premade vs pug matches that are not balanced. And, as i said, all of this TOGETHER WITH GEAR GAP FIX.
Actually, the only pugstomper I see here, is you... trying to get undergeared PvE pugs on the other side via solo queue to farm some kills.
You like making assumptions?
I don't need to prove you, how wrong you are about my attitude in-game... but how could you even understand it when you never played in a competitive environment.
You made your picture about pvp guilds and pvp overall from your solo queue & solo player experience side. Good, but that's only one side. Biased as much as it could be....
Me on the contrary, experienced both sides, as solo player for very long time & as premade player. So, I do clearly hear the one sided complains & assumptions. If you was in the "circle" of true PvPers... you would've never made them. But as I said, I don't blame you.
It's the same as a kid who does something wrong because it does it for the first time, the kid didn't know it better.
Anyways, this discussion is done for me at this point, it turned into throwing around with clueless assumption and pushing a personal agenda.
No important people do read it anyways.
Hang on a minute, there is actually nothing wrong with being a PUG stomper if you only run PUG's yourself. That just means you are potentially fairly decent at PvP.
I see no good logic in what you said there. You cannot be a decent Domination player when all you come up against are pre-made teams. In fact this is what drives a lot of normal players and PvE players, like myself, away from PvP altogether
In fact I have full Elemental Lionsmane Gear, Trans Elven & Dread, Rank 10 Runes and a couple of 11's. All 5 mount bonuses, maxed Boons, Maxed Guild SH... Still even I do not have a chance against pre-made teams or Trio's or whatever whenever I run a PUG due to the matchmaking.
The only time I realised I am actually ok at PvP was during the solo queue when I could actually fight people and start to learn how to combat classes. You cannot learn anything when you do not have a cats chance in hell of doing/learning anything against pre-made teams.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
They already expressed their thought. "not premade's fault". Aka: it's still stomping, but if there's no gear gap/ boons involved it's ok. Or they believe that fixing gear gap and boons(good thing) suddenly PuG teams will be able to fight back PvP premades that rule mixed queue right now. Your experience in solo queue is what happens exactly when teams are formed by matchmaking and not by PvP guilds, and you can actually fight. Which does not mean it's balanced. But you can have a fight instead of a one-sided stomping.
I clearly stated that it's not anyone's "fault". The ones who talked about a "someone's fault" is you and sayajin. I just wrote that since builds and voice chat are a huge source of gap between pugs and organized PvP premades, you can't mix pug teams/ soloQ teams, and premades. So your first point is a load of nonsense that is not in my posts but just in your head.
I also clearly stated that boons and gear (you only mentioned boons and gear) are not the only things creating a "gap" but that there's a huge gap between PvP and PvE builds. Which means that a premade of players all dedicated to PvP, with PvP builds, will always have an edge over a mix of PvP and PvE builds of a pug team, even at same iLvL. So again, your second point is another load of nonsense that is not in my posts.
PvP gear creates a gap and i never wrote it does not. But still, it's easier to fill that gap since you can easily buy blue gear and then farm some tier 1 PvP gear to fill that gap to some extent. I also wrote in ayroux thread that i agree with proposals like moving tenacity from gear to players. Again another load of nonsense that is not in my posts, since i never said that PvP gear does not creat a gap. Just that it's easier to fill that gap. Straw argument much?
I also clearly explained that i'm not saying it's someone's fault but that, still, those things (builds and voice chat) give PvP premades a clear edge and that it's one more reason to separate PvP premades from pug teams.
In few words, also, i just wrote, CLEARLY, that what is needed is both:
- gear gap removal - separation between PvP premades and pug teams
While you and sayajin clearly wrote that all is needed is gear gap removal and that the other factors (voice chat, builds) are not important because it's not "premade's fault", while at the same time writing that yeah, builds and voice chat are a huge source of gap between Pvp premades and pug teams.
So you took the time to write a nice post which is filled with stuff that is not even close to what i wrote. You seem to either struggle to understand english/ words/ simple lines like the ones above, or just purposefully distort/ ignore what i write and change it into something else. Simply comparing my posts to what you wrote above, it's quite clear.
The difference between me and you two is that i say that other factors involved in PvP premades create a gap and, for that reason, we need not just gear gap removal but also separation between PvP premades and pug teams/soloQ players, while you guys clearly stated that (sayajin words) those factors (voice chat and builds) create a huge gap, but since you can say that "it's not premade's fault", you can ignore them.
You also keep talking about 2k premades vs 4k pug teams. Put aside the fact these "2k premades" do not exist in-game, you seem to think that if gear gap can beat "premades" in extreme situations, then premades are not an issue. While BOTH are issues. Answer this: what happens if a 2k PvP premade of, let's say, alts, with PvP dedicated builds and voice chat coordination, meets a 2k pug team with a mix of PvP and PvE builds just randomply joining a match? Will the match be balanced or will it end 1000-100? I think you know the answer. I've seen 2.5k alts of PvP players in full PvP build, beating 3k+ PvE players randomly joining domination.
It's also quite hypocritical to say that if premades can stomp pugs thanks to dedicated builds and voice chat it's ok/ not their fault, but then blame it on pugs for not using the advanced tools like voice chat, or for not building their toon specifically for PvP.
I want, instead, separate those who are indeed dedicated and experienced PvP players, from those who are not. Because else, you will not have balance. Period.
Would you put a team of NBA pro players vs a team of very tall and trained amateurs and then say "well, it's all good now. Fair match". Nope. Because even if the gap is not anyone's fault, your common sense tells you that it's pointless to match pro-players vs amateurs. What you want, instead, is to make every player "as tall as a pro-player" and then put professional teams vs amateur teams--->no balance. What i want, is to make every player as tall as a pro-player, and then mix pro-players and amateurs so that both teams have both kind of players--->balance.
I explained it with easy-to-understand words. This time, if you come again with some fantasy stuff like your last post, i won't reply. Bring some arguments clonky.
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Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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6 GAMES IN A ROW WERE VS 4K PREMADE TEAMS AND ENDED 1000-50 OR SO, WITH CAP TRADE AND NO FIGHT, and in a couple of games on my team too there were 3-4 4k players doing soloQ
Now please come tell me how you will strip those 4k toons so much to make their premade at the same level of the 2k pug team, and how premades are an issue only because of gear gap.
6 games in a row ruined by premades, 1 hour wasted. Just wanted to fight some pvP but well, premades must have their "fun".
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
With solo this was less obvious and since the matches were more balanced, said things rarely happened.
Since it costs no Dev time or man power switching solo permanently on, why the heck they meditate so long over it, well i know why, but their logic needs an update, it would be a win-win situation for all.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
P.S: Better idea, why not make solo naked, so no boons, mounts, etc., all the power creep that divides and let normal Domination be a playground for whales, so they can enjoy their shiny new toys or why not bring back Gauntlgrym as true solo playground only, would be pretty easy to do actually, it's already there collecting dust or or or, i could go on, we all could, oh well...
Jesus we got a new CM, would love to hear from her, actually would love to see a true PVP professional Dev on board comment from time to time, just talking about that "improved communication".
Guys we are like old folks in a local english gents' club, we can talk all day and sip on our tea, but if we don't have a listening and well qualified partner then it's all just a place to vent, nothing else.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
However, i disagree when you minimize the impact of just "being a premade". In module 1 the gear gap was not that big. But i tell you the big differences you left out when comparing a premade to a pug team of players with same gear/ low gear gap:
- PvP builds. Make a GWF in PvE build face Icydrake. Same iLvL, maxed boons exc... but different builds and gear setup (PvE GWF will however have PvP armor). Icy will win 10/10 matches hands down. Now translate it on a PvP game scale. 5 PvP veterans BiS build and gear vs 5 BiS PvE players in PvP armor. The second team won't cap. Not even once. Wait...may be they will cap home node if they all rush to it at the start. Want an example: in NCL Lazalia (best PvE GWF in game) struggled to get into top 40 (i believe he scored in between 35 and 40) while PvP GWFs with same iLvL/ gear were all in top 10 hands down. My GWF scored around Lazalia and it was a 2.7 GWF at the time, in Pure plague and G.Soulforged (T.Fey and Perf. Neg+ everywhere, Lazalia included since he used a 2nd PvP set with PvP enchants), instigator build (BiS was already destroyer by far). You get the idea about how much experience can do (and no, it was not "luck", with 200+ games played during the whole NCL, last one 30 minutes before the event ended).
- PvP players all same iLvL and boons, but one team with T.Neg-T.Fey or T.Elven exc... vs payers with, let's say, T.Vorpal and T.Soulforged or other PvE armor enchant. First team will win. Hands down.
Plus, you say the premade will have "just" communication and "maybe experience (are you serious???)".
Let's explain things right:
- Maybe experience: a PvP player knows when to dodge, how to dodge, how to move from node to node, which class face with his own class and build. A PvE player with little PvP experience? Not even close. They are not used to PvP fight, and it's not a "just". It's an ocean of difference and YOU KNOW IT. With my 2.6k HR i can take down more geared PvE players just because they don't know how to time attacks vs a dodging human player, and they don't know how to time their defenses. Does a PvE player know how to tail and spot a PvP TR? Answer: NOPE. A PvP player, instead, knows which encounter use, how PvP TRs move exc...
Players say PvP is "just gear". It's false. Experience and skills still make a ton of difference, and only when gear gap is 1k+ and with "certain BiS gear pieces/boons" skill and experience get beaten. But i can tell you that 2.5k+ alts from PvP guilds beat often, and hands down, more geared mains of PvE players/ normal players.
- Just communication: you're trying to tell me that the ability to insta-coordinate rotations and team efforts via voice chat, does not create a HUGE difference compared to a pug team where everyone moves randomly, trying to "guess" what to do? Or can coordinate via chat= stop fighting, type to your team, get back to fight.
You know far too well that the above elements are a BIG difference.
It's the exact same reason why PvP guilds premades ALREADY STOMPED IN MODULE 1.
So, using that ranking to point out how good or bad I can be in PvP or as a measurement of my skills/gear/experience is a complete mistake, huge one.
Yes. I KNOW IT.
However, there's a lot of well experienced PvP'ers who queue alone, and you are just as likely to be matched with them, as you are to be matched with a "noob party", or a mix of the two, when facing a pre-made, depending on how many are in the queue at any given time.
Therefore; "maybe experience".
I'm not ever going to deny that voice comms is a huge advantage, and ingame voice is a good tool for that, but whenever I turn it on, all I hear is either this:
or someone who assume everyone understands their native language (usually not english). That being said, it is possible to predict where a player will go to if you suddenly see them ditch a node fight, and typing something like "TR go 2" hardly takes a long time. Or.. you can just follow them yourself, if that is the better option.
I've been in "pug groups" who did manage to beat premades this way, so yes, sometimes it is "just voice com"
Just for the record, not all TR's move the same. Some are extremely sneaky, some are less so. But yes, you need a certain amount of experience to know how to track any of them.
Edit: Actually, I do have voice chat on, and just mute those who fit the above description.
Since you're here and you experienced some PvP, you can answer this: with your BiS GWF in your pure PvE build and PvE enchants (vorpal exc...) how do you perform when facing a BiS PvP GWF? Did you meet for example Saber (using him as an example because he was very active) during NCL and could you fight him 1v1?
BTW, if you read my post carefully, when i used you as an example i was not comparing skills/gear/experience. I was comparing BUILDS and i was using you as an example because since you're pretty much the best PvE GWF in game, you're ideal to compare BiS PvP build with a BiS PvE build, in PvP. Not to say you were weak in PvP or something like that. Mainly to say "see, even the best, without a PvP build, can't perform like other GWFs in PvP build". Which, thinking about it now, might be misleading since you were using a 2nd set with T.Fey/T.Neg and may be you also respecced just for NCL, no idea.
@clonkyo and sayajin: nobody said it's premade fault if other players don't go in PvP with voice chat. You can also say that it's not premade's fault if the other players use a PvE build. But then you're now basically confirming what i said.
You must separate premades from pugs exactly because it's not just gear gap that creates difference. But builds and voice chat, for example. So, as i said, if you just fix gear gap you'll still have premades stomping pug teams the same as now. Just, instead of 1000-50, you'll have 1000-100 results. Premades must have their own queue, and anything else must have the choice to go solo queue. Because there's no way to make a pug team of casuals or, worse, PvE players, competitive vs a PvP premade. And PvP premade are not the fabled 2k teams of clonky, but ALWAYS geared and experienced guilds/ alliance premades from PvP guilds.
As i thought, the reasoning you're doing sayajin, is basically this: "yeah, fix gear gap (more or less), but keep mixed queue, so when we will stomp pugs again nobody will tell us it's because of gear gap, but because of skills/experience/organization". What your solution will fix is only the fact that PvP players when criticized for "stomping" will be able to reply that it's not P2W stuff but the above factors.
But i'm not worried about PvP reputation only or victories. So i'm not just letting that stuff go with a "not my problem since the advantage i have now is not P2W and i can brag about my victories now".
I want fun matches. PvP guild premades create boring no contests. So i want them separated from casual players/ people who soloQ exc...
Last, some numbers: 20 matches in soloQ with my HR. 19 were 1000-50/ 1000-80 range of score, and were ALWAYS involved full or partial premades from big PvP guilds/ known PvP guilds and alliances.
Matches scattered in different days, different time zones.
19/20
Even if 20 games is a little example, 19/20 is a pretty significant ratio which shows how much impact PvP premades have in mixed queue. Must be placed against other premades.
If you form a PvP premade, after all, it's to face another premade, right? Isn't this what PvP guilds always said? So it's even better if you have a mixed/ premade queue where no soloQ/ pugs
2) Builds=/= PvP gear. I'm not talking about tenacity but BUILDS. Feats, stats allocation, and even weapon/armor enchants. Example: a BiS PvE GWF with 20k+ crit stat, T.vorpal/ T.soulforged(or any other PvE armor enchant), low survivability, swordmaster path (yeah, there are SM PvP builds but this one would be a PvE build) will 100% lose badly when facing any BiS PvP GWF. But they are both BiS. No gear gap. Still, a huge difference in battlepower.
3) Nope. You're just not following my whole point or failing to understand it...
4) Here i wanted you, thank you for stating it so clearly. The big difference between my point and yours.
You just stated that you don't care about lack of balance as long as it does not come from gear. Basically, you both say that all you want is gear gap alone to be removed AND the other factors that create no-contest matches to be kept. You both wrote the same thing: "yeah it creates a big gap, but well, not my fault". Then you're not looking for real balance in PvP matches. You just want PvP guilds to be able to still gang-up together to stomp the rest of the community.
Too bad i'm not looking for something so cheap. But for fun matches where both teams have similar battlepower and even the losing team can fight back.
What will happen in "your PvP" is that a PvP premade with voice chat will meet a pug team with a mix of PvP players, PvE players in PvP builds, and still wreck them big time.
In "my PvP", instead, both teams would have a mix of PvP and PvE players and no "edge", allowing both teams to fight just through team play. Cause in mixed teams you can compensate the gap created by builds, just rotating and changing the matchups (teamplay). In a PvP premade vs pug team you can't do that, because on the other team all the toons are PvP build/ experienced, so if you have a PvE player it instantly becomes a 5v4 match.
Now it's clear that i'm talking about real balance with fun PvP matches, while you two are just looking for a cheap accomodation that still allows pugstomping but also allows the stompers to say "not my fault" (the same as it was in module 1).
Trying to bring PvE players to WHAT SIDE? There's a "side"? I'm saying that they must not be forced to face PvP premades in mixed queue. You are saying that no, it's ok if they become food for premades. In mixed queue, instead, they can fight other PvE players because the enemy team is not formed by 5 PvP players. I also stated clearly that i am IN FAVOR OF GEAR GAP REMOVAL and that GEAR GAP IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE. So again, what you wrote above I respectfully disagree with, just re-reading my previous posts).
I don't try to bring undergeared pugs anywhere since i wrote that both gear gap and premades must be addressed.
You wrote, and clonkyo too, that voice chat and builds are a huge gap but "not our fault if pug players don't have a dedicated PvP build or voice chat".
Explain what you wrote then. You said that those elements DO create a huge gap but then you wrote "not my fault however" aka "i wash my hands of the issue, who cares".
Ok sorry.
I don't give a HAMSTER about the circle of "true PvPers". And i don't really care about PvP guilds. In fact my idea, clearly stated, is that separate queues allows them to have their "true PvPers" premades in one queue, while the other is soloQ only to avoid premade vs pug matches that are not balanced.
And, as i said, all of this TOGETHER WITH GEAR GAP FIX.
I see no good logic in what you said there. You cannot be a decent Domination player when all you come up against are pre-made teams. In fact this is what drives a lot of normal players and PvE players, like myself, away from PvP altogether
In fact I have full Elemental Lionsmane Gear, Trans Elven & Dread, Rank 10 Runes and a couple of 11's. All 5 mount bonuses, maxed Boons, Maxed Guild SH... Still even I do not have a chance against pre-made teams or Trio's or whatever whenever I run a PUG due to the matchmaking.
The only time I realised I am actually ok at PvP was during the solo queue when I could actually fight people and start to learn how to combat classes. You cannot learn anything when you do not have a cats chance in hell of doing/learning anything against pre-made teams.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Or they believe that fixing gear gap and boons(good thing) suddenly PuG teams will be able to fight back PvP premades that rule mixed queue right now.
Your experience in solo queue is what happens exactly when teams are formed by matchmaking and not by PvP guilds, and you can actually fight. Which does not mean it's balanced. But you can have a fight instead of a one-sided stomping.
So your first point is a load of nonsense that is not in my posts but just in your head.
I also clearly stated that boons and gear (you only mentioned boons and gear) are not the only things creating a "gap" but that there's a huge gap between PvP and PvE builds. Which means that a premade of players all dedicated to PvP, with PvP builds, will always have an edge over a mix of PvP and PvE builds of a pug team, even at same iLvL.
So again, your second point is another load of nonsense that is not in my posts.
PvP gear creates a gap and i never wrote it does not. But still, it's easier to fill that gap since you can easily buy blue gear and then farm some tier 1 PvP gear to fill that gap to some extent. I also wrote in ayroux thread that i agree with proposals like moving tenacity from gear to players.
Again another load of nonsense that is not in my posts, since i never said that PvP gear does not creat a gap. Just that it's easier to fill that gap. Straw argument much?
I also clearly explained that i'm not saying it's someone's fault but that, still, those things (builds and voice chat) give PvP premades a clear edge and that it's one more reason to separate PvP premades from pug teams.
In few words, also, i just wrote, CLEARLY, that what is needed is both:
- gear gap removal
- separation between PvP premades and pug teams
While you and sayajin clearly wrote that all is needed is gear gap removal and that the other factors (voice chat, builds) are not important because it's not "premade's fault", while at the same time writing that yeah, builds and voice chat are a huge source of gap between Pvp premades and pug teams.
So you took the time to write a nice post which is filled with stuff that is not even close to what i wrote. You seem to either struggle to understand english/ words/ simple lines like the ones above, or just purposefully distort/ ignore what i write and change it into something else. Simply comparing my posts to what you wrote above, it's quite clear.
The difference between me and you two is that i say that other factors involved in PvP premades create a gap and, for that reason, we need not just gear gap removal but also separation between PvP premades and pug teams/soloQ players, while you guys clearly stated that (sayajin words) those factors (voice chat and builds) create a huge gap, but since you can say that "it's not premade's fault", you can ignore them.
You also keep talking about 2k premades vs 4k pug teams. Put aside the fact these "2k premades" do not exist in-game, you seem to think that if gear gap can beat "premades" in extreme situations, then premades are not an issue. While BOTH are issues. Answer this: what happens if a 2k PvP premade of, let's say, alts, with PvP dedicated builds and voice chat coordination, meets a 2k pug team with a mix of PvP and PvE builds just randomply joining a match? Will the match be balanced or will it end 1000-100? I think you know the answer. I've seen 2.5k alts of PvP players in full PvP build, beating 3k+ PvE players randomly joining domination.
It's also quite hypocritical to say that if premades can stomp pugs thanks to dedicated builds and voice chat it's ok/ not their fault, but then blame it on pugs for not using the advanced tools like voice chat, or for not building their toon specifically for PvP.
I want, instead, separate those who are indeed dedicated and experienced PvP players, from those who are not. Because else, you will not have balance. Period.
Would you put a team of NBA pro players vs a team of very tall and trained amateurs and then say "well, it's all good now. Fair match". Nope. Because even if the gap is not anyone's fault, your common sense tells you that it's pointless to match pro-players vs amateurs. What you want, instead, is to make every player "as tall as a pro-player" and then put professional teams vs amateur teams--->no balance.
What i want, is to make every player as tall as a pro-player, and then mix pro-players and amateurs so that both teams have both kind of players--->balance.
I explained it with easy-to-understand words. This time, if you come again with some fantasy stuff like your last post, i won't reply. Bring some arguments clonky.