Back on topic... I have not even been able to enjoy this event since Saturday. I have reported it for 3 days and lots of other people having problems too.
Really gutted, enjoying an event until server issues... Looking at Reddit it seems to be a UK thing
Typical, I actually really enjoy something only to be not be able to play it... not just that but I cannot get my daily VIP keys
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
This is why Solo que works. 1. It gives the better players 3.5 to 4k il a chance to play with out being stomped by 3 bis guild members they can actually contribute to a team and maybe carry it this is a win for him 2. it gives the lower Ils a chance to work as a team and rotate nodes ves the 4k Il player and still win
I played a great match against @Pandos team All 5 were 2.5 il to 3.1 all of which I was able to kill singly but when his HR i believe was around 2.7 il and the GF who was around 3k teamed up they were able to beat my 4k that HR cc and GF rotation was pretty deadly. The rest of his team worked together to rotate the nodes. The match seesawed back and forth and ended with the lower level team winning with team work. I did try to pm @ pando after I realized who he was but he had left the game. These are the matches I live for with scores of 1000 to 986 not the match when its 1000 to 29.
This is why Solo Que works 20 matches most were even matches but 3. I won several but lose several also. Most were close and left me very worn out from the intensity of the match going to the end to see who won. 1. had 1 that was done in 30 seconds was severe out of balance my favor 2. 1 where I was brought in to a match that had started was down 270 to 72 match was turned around ended 1000 to 872 where 2nd 4k on my team was able to turn the match due to out of balance. 3. had 1 where other team kicked till was 3 4k on other side was good fight but was over powered 1000 to 690 but still had fun
So with these kind of matches how can you say Solo was bad? Now the issue is Balance the matches some fix so kick or loss of player has a IL within 200 of player leaving to come into existing match so cant kick till whole team is 4. We as players should enjoy the solo que its the best Cryptic has to offer right now and its for the players.
The problem I'm seeing now is that people are getting booted and voted out of matches. I think that should be taken out. Yes, someone just standing there deserves to get booted but kicking a 2k when you're winning by 50 points but struggling to maintain it is hurting more than helping. Either take the win or take the loss. It's part of "solo queue".
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
The problem I'm seeing now is that people are getting booted and voted out of matches. I think that should be taken out. Yes, someone just standing there deserves to get booted but kicking a 2k when you're winning by 50 points but struggling to maintain it is hurting more than helping. Either take the win or take the loss. It's part of "solo queue".
I hate getting vote-kicks in my face while I'm fighting. I generally just hit escape.
The problem I'm seeing now is that people are getting booted and voted out of matches. I think that should be taken out. Yes, someone just standing there deserves to get booted but kicking a 2k when you're winning by 50 points but struggling to maintain it is hurting more than helping. Either take the win or take the loss. It's part of "solo queue".
I hate getting vote-kicks in my face while I'm fighting. I generally just hit escape.
That moment when you are ready to dodge shocking execution and...the kick vote windows pops up
I've been having a blast from solo que because if its not solo que theres more premade matched just had 5 really good sweaty games soo much funner then rolling over nubs
Solo queue just ended, tried 3 matches and all 3 were garbage with no fight, 1000-50 scores and obviously 2+ 4k toons doing a half or a full premade.
Some guys i didn't see in solo queue the whole duration of the event. One of them from a 4k full premade was even mocking my 2.5k+ team in one match. He startedy writing "oh, we are so dead" before the match started, then after the insta wipe "your team gave up already? ". Then we spent 10 minutes doing nothing.
It's a total waste of playtime. You spend 10 minutes doing nothing. The difference in quality of PvP between solo and normal queue is pretty huge and clear. And the only different feature between solo queue and normal queue is the ability to form 2+ men premades. SO i guess it's pretty clear where the big problem is. But i'm sure some players will still say that premades/ half-premades are not the issue.
Hope they will notice how the number of players playing PvP and how much the PvP drops after solo queue ends. Is it that hard to figure out that solo queue is needed to have most of the population enjoying PvP more/ again? I don't really care about dedicated PvPers even if well, i'm one of them. Don't care about "undergeared pugs". Solo queue games are more balanced and fun. Period. Mixed queue is dead and gives 99% of no-contest games wasting our playtime.
So until deeper balance is achieved (ahahahahahaha -_-') let us have at least some decent fun when going to PvP.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
+1 for solo queue, I played about 30 matches and they were geneally quite enjoyable
forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
@jhpnw If I read you correct there, you want the queue to search for a replacement for a kicked player, of equal gear range as the kicked player, right?
If so, I totally agree.
I can to some degree understand why a duo or trio, fighting another duo/trio or even full pre-made, might want to kick a very weak player in order to balance out the match, thus making it more interesting, but those who do this in solo queue matches have imo completely missed the point with the PvP mode.
Solo Q plus applying tenacity to piercing damage would definitely tempt me back into pvp...
Edit: addressing Clonkys point above, yes the gear gap is a big issue but at least with a solo Q you've as much chance to get that 4k player on your team as on the other side. I really like the previously mentioned idea of 'gladiator/bare knuckle' matches where everyones gear gets lowered to, say, 'blue' status - including enchantments and artifacts and all boons are removed for the match duration.
It'd be like pre-70 pvp without cheaters with mythic artifacts
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
stat gap, which is of course a problem, can be overcome to a certain extent by mixing teams (= implementing solo queue). the other gap between premades and solo players is COORDINATION GAP, a premade has much better communication possibilities (voice).
"But i'm sure some players will still say that premades/ half-premades are not the issue." -by @pando83
Haha the bait is too strong to not answer. If we get the insane gear gap fixed a.k.a boons which give literally ten thousands of stats, you will be able to fight back premades. And solo queue event won't be ruled/carried by single 4k+ players.
Until then, no problem to keep solo queue in-game. But as mentioned a dozen times, it's not necessary to collect invalid data which was the intention of @panderus with solo queue. Wasted resources, wasted time. Core-problems must be fixed first to make the game overall more healthy.
But by now, I feel like beating a dead horse.
I'm sorry but i disagree. First: it's not a matter of boons alone. You can strip all toons of boons, and a PvP specced premade/ half premade will still destroy big time a pug team unless, somehow, the pug team is composed of dedicated PvPers too. For example, let's say you strip a PvP-specced GWF and a PvE specced GWF of boons. PvP GWF uses T.Fey and T.Neg, while PvE GWF uses PvE enchants---> T.Vorpal and, for example, T.Soulforged or even T.Fireburst. Both with tenacity gear but different enchants and spec. PvE GWF specced for high crit, most likely. PvP GWF for more survivability. The PvP GWF will easily kill the PvE specced GWF at same iLvL. Let's take a look at mixed queue this way: you'll still have experienced, geared and PvP-specced, coordinated players on one side, who know how to rotate, the matchups and are used to PvP fights, versus a mixed team that might have some exped PvPers, but most likely some PvE players with little experience in PvP.
Long story short: even at same iLvL, you guys know that dedicated PvPers will still destroy a mixed pug team of the same iLvL big time, unless that team is formed by other geared and dedicated PvPers.
To have some sort of balance keeping premades in the equation you need to rebalance:
- all paths, all builds to DELETE the difference between PvP and PvE builds - all enchants, to delete the difference between PvP BiS enchants and PvE BiS enchants, cause T.Fey wins hands down vs T.Vorp - tenacity, to rework stuff like crit resistance - all classes, obviously - create iLvL brackets at least
and still, you'll have a huge sea of difference due to experience in PvP combat/ class matchup (for example, knowing which class send to contest a node vs another class for best results), and last, but not the least, voice chat coordination which PvP guilds and alliances usually use. It would still be a stompfest after waiting what, months, to get all the things above done. Plus, since toons are built based on boons too (stat balance), you will tell to all players to rework their gear completely to change build. Which might mean re-farm PvP different PvP armor to get different stats, change enchants to rebalance stats, exc...
While, on the other side, we already see that soloQ alone already improves multiple times the quality of matches in PvP in no time.
Just keeping SH boons out of the equation would change pretty much nothing about what happens now, and you should know it. Would make players from lower level guilds a bit closer to players from higher rank guilds, but premades or half premades from PvP guilds would still transform those matches in 1000-100 instead of 1000-50, garbage. Same with campaign boons. A toon with less campaign boons is a new toon, a less geared and less experienced toon, that is POWERLESS against a premade of PvP players, even taking away all the boons.
We DO need deeper balance but what you guys want to do (boons, mounts stripping) will impact LESS than taking premades out of the equation, while taking longer. Premades were stomping pugs even during module 1. I remember it well. I remember going down and seeing fully PvP specced teams from PvP guilds with, let's say, immortal regeneration GWFs in titan armor, doing the same exact thing that premades from PvP guilds do now.
@clonkyo: you are writing nonsense and it's also pretty weird to read your posts about me. I have explained plenty of times how i play, the fact that i always fight vs players who are more geared than me, and that i don't even attack much weaker toons, even in mixed queue, and what i do. Plus what we are discussing have no links to any "overpowerness" you keep blabbering about, Yet you keep repeating that weird stuff as if you were trying to convince someone that i'm somehow interested in keeping my "overpowerness" (which does not exist since 3.3k without HP SH boon and with rank 8s is nowhere "overpowered") against other players when i already explained (and can be proved just fighting with/vs me in game) that i always tail the more geared enemies in PvP and don't even attack much weaker enemies or enemies who can't fight back. I also wrote that in the last soloQ i only played on my alt HR with half boons and 2.6k iLvL, and still, you write "you only want to keep your overpowerness".
Do you realize that you look quite...special this way? It looks like you don't even read what other people write. You just keep repeating the same thing like a mantra, even if in the post above it's been explained to you that it's the opposite. Someone writes to you "i play soloQ only with my undergeared 2.6k alt" and you reply "now i know you only want to keep your overpowerness, unless you play only with your alt!!!" (also trying to mock me adding up "and keep thinking you're slowing down stronger enemies").
The point is that soloQ allows us to have 1000-700 games, no matter if you win or lose. You can fight. Games are more balanced. It's been written 1000x times.
MixedQ, on the other side, 9 times out of 10 is 1000-50 with no fight, just one-sided stomps and trade capping.
This is my simple argument and now you're invited to stop with straw-man arguments and personal attacks. Next time i'll just report your post and have it deleted since you do not discuss and your personal attacks are, on top of it, completely disregarding what i write or what i do in game.
Now you guys can keep pretending that premades are not an issue and that premade pugstomping didn't exist in module 1 and pre-boons. But it's false. PvP guilds have been pugstomping with their premades since i started playing in 2013. Simply because in this game PvP and PvE are quite different, with different specs and builds for PvP and PvE, plus PvP experience playing a BIG role. And the result is that allowing dedicated PvPers to gang up together vs pug teams is the same as organizing a match between a professional football team and an amateur football team.
Post edited by pando83 on
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
stat gap, which is of course a problem, can be overcome to a certain extent by mixing teams (= implementing solo queue). the other gap between premades and solo players is COORDINATION GAP, a premade has much better communication possibilities (voice).
Premades were stomping pugs even during module 1. I remember it well. I remember going down and seeing fully PvP specced teams from PvP guilds with, let's say, immortal regeneration GWFs in titan armor, doing the same exact thing that premades from PvP guilds do now.
As i grew tired of your nonsense and your bad habit to put words on my hands that i didn't write (don't get why you still think that i'm talking about your game play instead of your behaviour defending your overgearness while complaining about the overgearness of other players who stomp you [Just to inform you: your overgearness on berserk allows you to survive vs undergeared players due the fact that they deal almost 0 damage to you. I will not even care to explain about regen, LS, heal insignias, drowned weapons [not centered on you] and other stuff]), I invite you to gather a 2k IL team and stomp everyone on PvP as you still think that "premade teams" are that powerful... hope you don't come here to complain about a single 4k IL char destroying your whole team because you think that you're slowing down that player... but well, you should be on a premade team, you should win for good and for sure.
- Too bad that i didn't complain about "players who overgear me but instead i wrote that i usually TAIL AND FIGHT PLAYERS WHO OUTGEAR ME. I complained about joining a match and find all the 4k players in the enemy team gangin' up together. A match is of 10 players. If al lthe 5 strongest guys gang up together, there is the a problem. So again, you are talking about something that was not written here but is only in your head. Learn to read, please.
- My overgearness on berserk would allow me to survive against multiple 2k enemies if i were fighting said 2k players. Too bad that i wrote 15 times that i tail the strongest enemies who usually outgear me. As an example, i talked about multiple matches, since NCL (first time i did it) till this module, where i stood on a node fighting Saber. Not the 2k pugs in his team. 4k GWF Saber. So again, how do i "defend my overgearness" if i put myself against players who outgear me? Looks like i am defending also the "overgearness" of those players, which would be against my interest, right? So may be this might suggest you that i'm discussing a completely different matter.
- "hope you don't come here complaining about a single 4k character blah blah blah". I never complained about a single 4k toon destroying a team. YOU did it. I wrote that even if there's a single 4k toon in a soloQ match, i always tried to come up with strategies, often successfully, to contain him. And make my team win. I also stated that even in such a match, even if i lose, i can still have fun. So let's see. YOU complained that "a single 4k toon can make my team lose *cry*". I wrote that i do not care as long as the match is fun and that i can (and already did) come up with strategies to contain said 4k player. Looks like it's YOU who can't deal with that 4k toon. I can, and i already did. Believe me or not. You say that i "think i'm slowing down the player". I did it in NCL and it allowed me to turn multiple games where my team was losing, into a win. Talking to my team, making them rotate, and sacrificing myself on a node, and suddenly my team makes a comeback and wins. Yeah, it's just me daydreaming right?
What about you learn to play and learn to adapt, and learn to still have fun even if there's that 4k toon making things more difficult?
Last: where do you see all these 2k premades? Nowhere. PvP premades are formed all by dedicated and geared PvPers, with a very, very small fraction of premades of semi-geared players. Your last post contains no facts, no real examples, nothing. All you could do was come up with a "2k premade" example when mixedQ is instead filled with partial or full premades of experienced and seasoned PvPers. For a simple reason: who forms premades of PvP? Casual PvPers? Common players? Nope. Dedicated PvPers do it. And dedicated PvPers are, 99% of the times, 3k+/ 3.5k+ or 4k+ players, with toons built with PvP builds, stats and gear. And it's the exact reason why 9/10 mixedQ matches end up in a 1000-50 score with no fight at all, while soloQ proved to have a majority of games with a 1000-500/ 1000-700 or even head-to-head scores, with more fight and more fun.
It seems that since you can't fight the bad 4k enemy, or since you can lose (oh my god! The world will fall if you lose a PvP match!!) you don't even consider soloQ. When you play a soloQ match and lose due to a single 4k enemy, you think only about the loss and the fact that the 4k toon caused it. What i do, instead, is come up with a strategy, which sometimes allows my team to win, and even when i lose, what i think about is that i could still fight back and have fun, while in mixedQ it would've been a match against not 1, but 5 4k enemies and i would've been sitting at campfire or trading caps the whole time.
This is why soloQ is the best short-term solution to make PvP at least FUN again. True balance is another matter and i'm ready to give up mount bonuses, insignias, build, weapons, enchants, boons i don't care, as long as cryptic allows me to 1) free respec since PvE boons are different from PvP-focused boons 2)completely change my build and gear to match the new changes AT NO COST = i don't have to spend milions of AD again to sell stuff/ buy stuff/ change stuff to rework my toon from scratches.
It would be extremely naive to say premades of experienced pvp'ers do not have an immediate advantage. Not just effective communication, but also the fact they choose who's on their team - so they are all geared players who know what they are doing and communicate with each other for added advantage.
Solo Q mixes it up. Plain and simple. Is it the 'fix' everyone wants? No, but it moves the game in the right direction.
Until the devs bring in dual speccing for pvp play plus auto gear levelling AND applying tenacity to piercing damage you will not find a balanced match where it's purely skill v skill but this does address one of the main areas of imbalance.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
domination solo matches are the only thing that stop pug team going up against a team of 4ks with maxed guild boons where one of their players could take down the entire opposing side. I think this is what the game needs to make domination matches more balanced, some classes do seem to have an advantage over the others in pvp but at least the domination solo matches ensure you stand a better chance against the team its self. I came out of some solo matches feeling like my character was a beast for a change, rather than having to run 10 matches or more just to get paired up against another pug team rather than a premade 4k team. so with the normal domination matches I was coming out with 1 win in about every 10 matches but with the domination solo matches it was about 50/50 as to whether we would win or not. I think its absolutely ridiculous that you haven't made this permanent already because the domination matches can be dominated by the premade teams still but the pug teams can still fight against other pug teams without having to go through match after match of absolute slaughter where it just boils down to your team either calling GG and the opposing side being kind enough to let you cap or your team calling GG and the other team just deciding to carry on killing you all instead forcing your team to spend the rest of the match in the spawning zone, this is the reality of pvp in neverwinter until you make the obvious decision of making the domination solo matches permanent.
- i've not "started to admit". I wrote like 5-6 times in previous posts the same things (soloQ not being a solution to the whole balance issue exc...). This confirms that YOU DO NOT READ OR UNDERSTAND WHAT OTHER POEPLE WRITE. Thank you for making it pretty clear.
- Premades ARE a big source of lack of balance same as gear gap/ boons exc... Also: you keep talking about "2k premades", but the issue with premades is exactly that in PvP most premades are formed by geared and exped PvP players. So it completely defeats your logic: reality is that mixedQ is FILLED with geared and exped PvPers premades stomping random teams. Even if you make 2k toons able to somehow "damage" the premade, they will still stomp. Period. I gave you the example: in moduel 1 you didn't have this gear gap and yet, premades were stomping. I clearly remember, for example, a premade from old guild Exodus stomping in consecutive games (4 men premade). Module 1. No boons pretty much. How do you explain it? As i told you, premades in PvP ARE A BIG SOURCE OF IMBALANCE.
PvP and PvE are such different worlds that you need to rework 90% of the game to achieve deep balance. It takes time, If they even can do it considering they always lack manpower. You can take away SH boons, mounts, insignias,campaign boons from PvP, and you'd still join Domination to end up vs a PvPer omnipresent premade and get stomped without a chance to fight back. My GWF is 3.3k. Strip me, put me against another 3.3k player with no PvP build/ less experience in PvP and i'd still stomp him as fast as i can do now. Allow me to form a nice gang with other experienced PvPers, put us against unexperienced PvPers or PvE players with the same gear/ battlepower, and we'd still stomp them big time and they will not even cap once.
Also: i didn't "just admit" that i'd strip my toon if needed. I already wrote it multiple times, posted in ayroux post to say i like the ideas and so on. It's you who do not read and started with your own "overgearness mantra". What i wrote is that premades mixed with pug teams ARE a big issue, as big as gear gap. While you and a few others try to say it's not. FACTS that i explained say the opposite. PvP guilds premades have always been, and still are, disrupting PvP. Since module 1. Since pre-module 1.
santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Clonkyo, I don't think you're addressing the use of TeamSpeak to coordinate a 5 main overgeared, uber-coordinated pre-made. I'll await the wall of text with a box of popcorn.
1 - i've not "started to admit". I wrote like 5-6 times in previous posts the same things (soloQ not being a solution to the whole balance issue exc...). This confirms that YOU DO NOT READ OR UNDERSTAND WHAT OTHER POEPLE WRITE. Thank you for making it pretty clear.
2 - Premades ARE a big source of lack of balance same as gear gap/ boons exc... Also: you keep talking about "2k premades", but the issue with premades is exactly that in PvP most premades are formed by geared and exped PvP players. So it completely defeats your logic: reality is that mixedQ is FILLED with geared and exped PvPers premades stomping random teams. Even if you make 2k toons able to somehow "damage" the premade, they will still stomp. Period. I gave you the example: in moduel 1 you didn't have this gear gap and yet, premades were stomping. I clearly remember, for example, a premade from old guild Exodus stomping in consecutive games (4 men premade). Module 1. No boons pretty much. How do you explain it? As i told you, premades in PvP ARE A BIG SOURCE OF IMBALANCE.
3 - PvP and PvE are such different worlds that you need to rework 90% of the game to achieve deep balance. It takes time, If they even can do it considering they always lack manpower. 4 - You can take away SH boons, mounts, insignias,campaign boons from PvP, and you'd still join Domination to end up vs a PvPer omnipresent premade and get stomped without a chance to fight back. 5 - My GWF is 3.3k. Strip me, put me against another 3.3k player with no PvP build/ less experience in PvP and i'd still stomp him as fast as i can do now. Allow me to form a nice gang with other experienced PvPers, put us against unexperienced PvPers or PvE players with the same gear/ battlepower, and we'd still stomp them big time and they will not even cap once.
6 - Also: i didn't "just admit" that i'd strip my toon if needed. I already wrote it multiple times, posted in ayroux post to say i like the ideas and so on. It's you who do not read and started with your own "overgearness mantra". What i wrote is that premades mixed with pug teams ARE a big issue, as big as gear gap. While you and a few others try to say it's not. FACTS that i explained say the opposite. PvP guilds premades have always been, and still are, disrupting PvP. Since module 1. Since pre-module 1.
1 - False as hell, but well. Even on this post you still keep saying that "premades" are a problem, Sometimes, stating that "premades" are even a bigger issue than "gear gap" .
2 - Premades are NOT that problemtic by composition at all. The problem with "premades" is that you get more undergeared players on your team too if you solo Q with regardless of the mod (trust me, i still remember those teams too), i think we do agree on this as we are saying this, right? So, from where comes the "stopm" part of yours? if players can fight back , the definition of "stomp" can't be applied. Do PvP players more chances to win a game? Yes, it should be that way. That does mean that "mixed teams" can't win? not at all. Right now, PvP is one side. Back in the days, it wasn't. Like it or not and this is what we are saying all time along: Non premades could fight back to premade teams back in the days. Obviously, you could get paired with undergeared layers BUT, even those undergeared players could help you win the match. Nowadays, this is not happening at all due the gear gap.
3 - We are ot talking about PvE here. Thats why PvE boons should de taken out from PvP, they're one source of imbalance on PvP. 4- false as hell. Precisely, is that stuff what makes undergeared players not fight back: they can't due they lack the "power creep" that the "gear gap" grants. Back in the days, players wearing blue PvP gear (battlescared) could save the day, Nowadays? try not to laugh. When artifacts made their way in the game... as hard as it was to increase them, and harder to make higher rank enchants (until Mod2 kicked in, i think, which the new RP system "allevieated" [notice quotes] the old one), made a "gear wall" and i think that you're remembering those days, because i remember entering PvP with my Timeless hero set on my GF and wearing a Normal Vorpal and some Rad R6 or AoW set on my GWF with a lesser plaguefire with more Rad R6 and enjoying PvP so much. Don't believe me? Ask @ayroux about those days.
5 - Of course a PvP player should have an edge over PvE players. The thing is that you're making that "edge" as "allow players to do one side fights". Even on LoL, undergeared players can be useful on team fights. On here? not a chance. And this is independently of "pug" or "premade" teams. But using your own example, let's see what happends on that fight. Let's see if it is as easy as "stomp" that player as you have stated here that that fight would be one side too.
6 - And, again, the problem with "premades" is the over gearness, not the "premade itself". Seems like it's you tht you're using the "premade mantra" just to make your point clear, forcing others to explain "why" that imbalance exists (on my case: the "over gearness mantra" as you call it). BTW, you're wrong:
- 5 pug over geared team (if the luck is much to put them together, ofc, as happened to me some times) can face (this is, fight back) 5 premade over geared team and even win them. - 5 pug undergeared team can face 5 premade undergeared team. - 5 pug over geared team will stomp a 5 premade under geared team.
and so on.
Now that you're left without any reasoning behind your statments, you're brinning up the "only overgeared players (should ring a bell) do premades"argumen which, it's false for 2 reasons:
- no one is forviding me to do an undergeared premade team ( @xsayajinx1 , want to jump in after i buy my new comp?. XD) . - i did it time to time in the past together some friends (as i said lot of times, i do these kind of crazy things) before mod4 kicked in. And yes, we won time to time too vs premades (i think we won like 4 times. XDDD).
Is mainly this second point that i can say what i say. Have you even, ever tried to do a under geared premade team before mod4?
But well, as Sayajin has stated: seems like im beating a dead horse.
Hey there,
I kinda disagree...
1) Ok, I don't really disagree here cuz, it's a personal issue between U & Pando so, don't know/don't care
2) Your last line is correct, gear cap IS a part of the problem. However, remember where you are posting. This is a thread on how solo-queue needs to be made permanent. The only difference between solo-Q, & normal dom. is no pre-mades. If pre-mades were not a problem, this thread would not exist. Apparently, people are willing to overlook gear gap, to some extent, in favor of a pre-made free environment.
3) Here is a tricky one. I can see the logic in removing PVE boosts from PvP. There are a couple of problems with this. First, how far do you go in stripping PVE boosts from PvP? Boons, sure that makes sense. What about Mounts? Do you strip mount bonus'? What about Artifacts? There are artifacts available for PvP rewards. Should only those be allowed in PvP? Which brings us to our second problem with stripping PVE powers out of PvP... it further widens the gear gap. PvP boons are not really available to most players at the moment. Technically, anyone can get them, but in practice, unless you are in a PvP guild that is really not gonna happen. Meanwhile, anyone CAN get the PVE boons, eventually. By removing them, you are making already under-powered toonz, even more under powered. I don't see how that helps.
4) I think that sentence got away from you. You seem to have changed topic somewhere. You are the one saying that gear gap is the big problem with PvP now, but all of a sudden it is possible to Q up with lvl 6 enchants & gearz from 3 mods ago & NOT have your HaMsTeR handed to you? I don't think so.
5) This is a dangerous line of thought, " Of course a PvP player should have an edge over PvE players." Taken to it's extremes, this line of thinking would preclude pugs from EVER being able to compete in PvP. Which, thanks to the pre-mades, is kind of exactly where we are, right now, in the current state of PvP. PvP players win matches, earn glory, buy PvP gear & get better. PvP players trade glory for feeder artifacts for upgrading & get better. Mostly PVE focused (stats, gearz, etc.,) pugs are so far behind competition is not even an option. More often than not, survival is not an option. Which, once again, is why solo-Q is so popular... BECAUSE there are no pre-mades.
6) Yes, gear gap IS a part of the problem, BUT to say that pre-mades have nothing to do with the gear gap is a little naïve. Most pre-mades are guild based. These guilds have regular events to help their players lvl up & gear up as quickly as possible. Some guilds even have banks full of epic gearz for their members to choose from.
ok, so.... 2 final points. You are right, gear gap is an problem with the current PvP mode. Pando is not wrong, the pre-mades are ALSO a problem. Given the popularity of Solo-Q, most players see pre-mades as the bigger problem.
Lastly, it is possible to set up a pre-made of 2k, 2.5k. or 3k IL players. But why would you? Given the current matching system, I don't see any reason why that "under=geared" team would expect to meet BiS PvP guild pre-mades any less thn a pure pug team would. & the results would be the same.
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Really gutted, enjoying an event until server issues... Looking at Reddit it seems to be a UK thing
Typical, I actually really enjoy something only to be not be able to play it... not just that but I cannot get my daily VIP keys
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1. It gives the better players 3.5 to 4k il a chance to play with out being stomped by 3 bis guild members they can actually contribute to a team and maybe carry it this is a win for him
2. it gives the lower Ils a chance to work as a team and rotate nodes ves the 4k Il player and still win
I played a great match against @Pandos team All 5 were 2.5 il to 3.1 all of which I was able to kill singly but when his HR i believe was around 2.7 il and the GF who was around 3k teamed up they were able to beat my 4k that HR cc and GF rotation was pretty deadly. The rest of his team worked together to rotate the nodes. The match seesawed back and forth and ended with the lower level team winning with team work. I did try to pm @ pando after I realized who he was but he had left the game. These are the matches I live for with scores of 1000 to 986 not the match when its 1000 to 29.
This is why Solo Que works
20 matches most were even matches but 3. I won several but lose several also. Most were close and left me very worn out from the intensity of the match going to the end to see who won.
1. had 1 that was done in 30 seconds was severe out of balance my favor
2. 1 where I was brought in to a match that had started was down 270 to 72 match was turned around ended 1000 to 872 where 2nd 4k on my team was able to turn the match due to out of balance.
3. had 1 where other team kicked till was 3 4k on other side was good fight but was over powered 1000 to 690 but still had fun
So with these kind of matches how can you say Solo was bad? Now the issue is Balance the matches some fix so kick or loss of player has a IL within 200 of player leaving to come into existing match so cant kick till whole team is 4. We as players should enjoy the solo que its the best Cryptic has to offer right now and its for the players.
I think it's been 2 years since i got a match like this. A true head-to-head.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
Some guys i didn't see in solo queue the whole duration of the event. One of them from a 4k full premade was even mocking my 2.5k+ team in one match. He startedy writing "oh, we are so dead" before the match started, then after the insta wipe "your team gave up already?
Then we spent 10 minutes doing nothing.
It's a total waste of playtime. You spend 10 minutes doing nothing. The difference in quality of PvP between solo and normal queue is pretty huge and clear.
And the only different feature between solo queue and normal queue is the ability to form 2+ men premades. SO i guess it's pretty clear where the big problem is.
But i'm sure some players will still say that premades/ half-premades are not the issue.
Hope they will notice how the number of players playing PvP and how much the PvP drops after solo queue ends.
Is it that hard to figure out that solo queue is needed to have most of the population enjoying PvP more/ again?
I don't really care about dedicated PvPers even if well, i'm one of them. Don't care about "undergeared pugs". Solo queue games are more balanced and fun. Period.
Mixed queue is dead and gives 99% of no-contest games wasting our playtime.
So until deeper balance is achieved (ahahahahahaha -_-') let us have at least some decent fun when going to PvP.
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If I read you correct there, you want the queue to search for a replacement for a kicked player, of equal gear range as the kicked player, right?
If so, I totally agree.
I can to some degree understand why a duo or trio, fighting another duo/trio or even full pre-made, might want to kick a very weak player in order to balance out the match, thus making it more interesting, but those who do this in solo queue matches have imo completely missed the point with the PvP mode.
Edit: addressing Clonkys point above, yes the gear gap is a big issue but at least with a solo Q you've as much chance to get that 4k player on your team as on the other side. I really like the previously mentioned idea of 'gladiator/bare knuckle' matches where everyones gear gets lowered to, say, 'blue' status - including enchantments and artifacts and all boons are removed for the match duration.
It'd be like pre-70 pvp without cheaters with mythic artifacts
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stat gap, which is of course a problem, can be overcome to a certain extent by mixing teams (= implementing solo queue).
the other gap between premades and solo players is COORDINATION GAP, a premade has much better communication possibilities (voice).
First: it's not a matter of boons alone. You can strip all toons of boons, and a PvP specced premade/ half premade will still destroy big time a pug team unless, somehow, the pug team is composed of dedicated PvPers too. For example, let's say you strip a PvP-specced GWF and a PvE specced GWF of boons. PvP GWF uses T.Fey and T.Neg, while PvE GWF uses PvE enchants---> T.Vorpal and, for example, T.Soulforged or even T.Fireburst. Both with tenacity gear but different enchants and spec. PvE GWF specced for high crit, most likely. PvP GWF for more survivability.
The PvP GWF will easily kill the PvE specced GWF at same iLvL.
Let's take a look at mixed queue this way: you'll still have experienced, geared and PvP-specced, coordinated players on one side, who know how to rotate, the matchups and are used to PvP fights, versus a mixed team that might have some exped PvPers, but most likely some PvE players with little experience in PvP.
Long story short: even at same iLvL, you guys know that dedicated PvPers will still destroy a mixed pug team of the same iLvL big time, unless that team is formed by other geared and dedicated PvPers.
To have some sort of balance keeping premades in the equation you need to rebalance:
- all paths, all builds to DELETE the difference between PvP and PvE builds
- all enchants, to delete the difference between PvP BiS enchants and PvE BiS enchants, cause T.Fey wins hands down vs T.Vorp
- tenacity, to rework stuff like crit resistance
- all classes, obviously
- create iLvL brackets at least
and still, you'll have a huge sea of difference due to experience in PvP combat/ class matchup (for example, knowing which class send to contest a node vs another class for best results), and last, but not the least, voice chat coordination which PvP guilds and alliances usually use.
It would still be a stompfest after waiting what, months, to get all the things above done.
Plus, since toons are built based on boons too (stat balance), you will tell to all players to rework their gear completely to change build. Which might mean re-farm PvP different PvP armor to get different stats, change enchants to rebalance stats, exc...
While, on the other side, we already see that soloQ alone already improves multiple times the quality of matches in PvP in no time.
Just keeping SH boons out of the equation would change pretty much nothing about what happens now, and you should know it.
Would make players from lower level guilds a bit closer to players from higher rank guilds, but premades or half premades from PvP guilds would still transform those matches in 1000-100 instead of 1000-50, garbage.
Same with campaign boons. A toon with less campaign boons is a new toon, a less geared and less experienced toon, that is POWERLESS against a premade of PvP players, even taking away all the boons.
We DO need deeper balance but what you guys want to do (boons, mounts stripping) will impact LESS than taking premades out of the equation, while taking longer.
Premades were stomping pugs even during module 1. I remember it well. I remember going down and seeing fully PvP specced teams from PvP guilds with, let's say, immortal regeneration GWFs in titan armor, doing the same exact thing that premades from PvP guilds do now.
@clonkyo: you are writing nonsense and it's also pretty weird to read your posts about me. I have explained plenty of times how i play, the fact that i always fight vs players who are more geared than me, and that i don't even attack much weaker toons, even in mixed queue, and what i do. Plus what we are discussing have no links to any "overpowerness" you keep blabbering about, Yet you keep repeating that weird stuff as if you were trying to convince someone that i'm somehow interested in keeping my "overpowerness" (which does not exist since 3.3k without HP SH boon and with rank 8s is nowhere "overpowered") against other players when i already explained (and can be proved just fighting with/vs me in game) that i always tail the more geared enemies in PvP and don't even attack much weaker enemies or enemies who can't fight back.
I also wrote that in the last soloQ i only played on my alt HR with half boons and 2.6k iLvL, and still, you write "you only want to keep your overpowerness".
Do you realize that you look quite...special this way? It looks like you don't even read what other people write. You just keep repeating the same thing like a mantra, even if in the post above it's been explained to you that it's the opposite.
Someone writes to you "i play soloQ only with my undergeared 2.6k alt" and you reply "now i know you only want to keep your overpowerness, unless you play only with your alt!!!" (also trying to mock me adding up "and keep thinking you're slowing down stronger enemies").
The point is that soloQ allows us to have 1000-700 games, no matter if you win or lose. You can fight. Games are more balanced. It's been written 1000x times.
MixedQ, on the other side, 9 times out of 10 is 1000-50 with no fight, just one-sided stomps and trade capping.
This is my simple argument and now you're invited to stop with straw-man arguments and personal attacks. Next time i'll just report your post and have it deleted since you do not discuss and your personal attacks are, on top of it, completely disregarding what i write or what i do in game.
Now you guys can keep pretending that premades are not an issue and that premade pugstomping didn't exist in module 1 and pre-boons. But it's false. PvP guilds have been pugstomping with their premades since i started playing in 2013.
Simply because in this game PvP and PvE are quite different, with different specs and builds for PvP and PvE, plus PvP experience playing a BIG role. And the result is that allowing dedicated PvPers to gang up together vs pug teams is the same as organizing a match between a professional football team and an amateur football team.
- My overgearness on berserk would allow me to survive against multiple 2k enemies if i were fighting said 2k players. Too bad that i wrote 15 times that i tail the strongest enemies who usually outgear me. As an example, i talked about multiple matches, since NCL (first time i did it) till this module, where i stood on a node fighting Saber. Not the 2k pugs in his team. 4k GWF Saber. So again, how do i "defend my overgearness" if i put myself against players who outgear me? Looks like i am defending also the "overgearness" of those players, which would be against my interest, right? So may be this might suggest you that i'm discussing a completely different matter.
- "hope you don't come here complaining about a single 4k character blah blah blah". I never complained about a single 4k toon destroying a team. YOU did it. I wrote that even if there's a single 4k toon in a soloQ match, i always tried to come up with strategies, often successfully, to contain him. And make my team win. I also stated that even in such a match, even if i lose, i can still have fun.
So let's see. YOU complained that "a single 4k toon can make my team lose *cry*". I wrote that i do not care as long as the match is fun and that i can (and already did) come up with strategies to contain said 4k player.
Looks like it's YOU who can't deal with that 4k toon. I can, and i already did. Believe me or not. You say that i "think i'm slowing down the player". I did it in NCL and it allowed me to turn multiple games where my team was losing, into a win. Talking to my team, making them rotate, and sacrificing myself on a node, and suddenly my team makes a comeback and wins. Yeah, it's just me daydreaming right?
What about you learn to play and learn to adapt, and learn to still have fun even if there's that 4k toon making things more difficult?
Last: where do you see all these 2k premades? Nowhere. PvP premades are formed all by dedicated and geared PvPers, with a very, very small fraction of premades of semi-geared players. Your last post contains no facts, no real examples, nothing. All you could do was come up with a "2k premade" example when mixedQ is instead filled with partial or full premades of experienced and seasoned PvPers. For a simple reason: who forms premades of PvP? Casual PvPers? Common players? Nope. Dedicated PvPers do it. And dedicated PvPers are, 99% of the times, 3k+/ 3.5k+ or 4k+ players, with toons built with PvP builds, stats and gear.
And it's the exact reason why 9/10 mixedQ matches end up in a 1000-50 score with no fight at all, while soloQ proved to have a majority of games with a 1000-500/ 1000-700 or even head-to-head scores, with more fight and more fun.
It seems that since you can't fight the bad 4k enemy, or since you can lose (oh my god! The world will fall if you lose a PvP match!!) you don't even consider soloQ. When you play a soloQ match and lose due to a single 4k enemy, you think only about the loss and the fact that the 4k toon caused it. What i do, instead, is come up with a strategy, which sometimes allows my team to win, and even when i lose, what i think about is that i could still fight back and have fun, while in mixedQ it would've been a match against not 1, but 5 4k enemies and i would've been sitting at campfire or trading caps the whole time.
This is why soloQ is the best short-term solution to make PvP at least FUN again.
True balance is another matter and i'm ready to give up mount bonuses, insignias, build, weapons, enchants, boons i don't care, as long as cryptic allows me to 1) free respec since PvE boons are different from PvP-focused boons 2)completely change my build and gear to match the new changes AT NO COST = i don't have to spend milions of AD again to sell stuff/ buy stuff/ change stuff to rework my toon from scratches.
Solo Q mixes it up. Plain and simple. Is it the 'fix' everyone wants? No, but it moves the game in the right direction.
Until the devs bring in dual speccing for pvp play plus auto gear levelling AND applying tenacity to piercing damage you will not find a balanced match where it's purely skill v skill but this does address one of the main areas of imbalance.
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- Premades ARE a big source of lack of balance same as gear gap/ boons exc... Also: you keep talking about "2k premades", but the issue with premades is exactly that in PvP most premades are formed by geared and exped PvP players. So it completely defeats your logic: reality is that mixedQ is FILLED with geared and exped PvPers premades stomping random teams. Even if you make 2k toons able to somehow "damage" the premade, they will still stomp. Period. I gave you the example: in moduel 1 you didn't have this gear gap and yet, premades were stomping. I clearly remember, for example, a premade from old guild Exodus stomping in consecutive games (4 men premade).
Module 1. No boons pretty much. How do you explain it? As i told you, premades in PvP ARE A BIG SOURCE OF IMBALANCE.
PvP and PvE are such different worlds that you need to rework 90% of the game to achieve deep balance. It takes time, If they even can do it considering they always lack manpower.
You can take away SH boons, mounts, insignias,campaign boons from PvP, and you'd still join Domination to end up vs a PvPer omnipresent premade and get stomped without a chance to fight back. My GWF is 3.3k. Strip me, put me against another 3.3k player with no PvP build/ less experience in PvP and i'd still stomp him as fast as i can do now. Allow me to form a nice gang with other experienced PvPers, put us against unexperienced PvPers or PvE players with the same gear/ battlepower, and we'd still stomp them big time and they will not even cap once.
Also: i didn't "just admit" that i'd strip my toon if needed. I already wrote it multiple times, posted in ayroux post to say i like the ideas and so on. It's you who do not read and started with your own "overgearness mantra". What i wrote is that premades mixed with pug teams ARE a big issue, as big as gear gap. While you and a few others try to say it's not.
FACTS that i explained say the opposite. PvP guilds premades have always been, and still are, disrupting PvP. Since module 1. Since pre-module 1.
I kinda disagree...
1) Ok, I don't really disagree here cuz, it's a personal issue between U & Pando so, don't know/don't care
2) Your last line is correct, gear cap IS a part of the problem. However, remember where you are posting. This is a thread on how solo-queue needs to be made permanent. The only difference between solo-Q, & normal dom. is no pre-mades. If pre-mades were not a problem, this thread would not exist. Apparently, people are willing to overlook gear gap, to some extent, in favor of a pre-made free environment.
3) Here is a tricky one. I can see the logic in removing PVE boosts from PvP. There are a couple of problems with this. First, how far do you go in stripping PVE boosts from PvP? Boons, sure that makes sense. What about Mounts? Do you strip mount bonus'? What about Artifacts? There are artifacts available for PvP rewards. Should only those be allowed in PvP? Which brings us to our second problem with stripping PVE powers out of PvP... it further widens the gear gap. PvP boons are not really available to most players at the moment. Technically, anyone can get them, but in practice, unless you are in a PvP guild that is really not gonna happen. Meanwhile, anyone CAN get the PVE boons, eventually. By removing them, you are making already under-powered toonz, even more under powered. I don't see how that helps.
4) I think that sentence got away from you. You seem to have changed topic somewhere. You are the one saying that gear gap is the big problem with PvP now, but all of a sudden it is possible to Q up with lvl 6 enchants & gearz from 3 mods ago & NOT have your HaMsTeR handed to you? I don't think so.
5) This is a dangerous line of thought, " Of course a PvP player should have an edge over PvE players." Taken to it's extremes, this line of thinking would preclude pugs from EVER being able to compete in PvP. Which, thanks to the pre-mades, is kind of exactly where we are, right now, in the current state of PvP. PvP players win matches, earn glory, buy PvP gear & get better. PvP players trade glory for feeder artifacts for upgrading & get better. Mostly PVE focused (stats, gearz, etc.,) pugs are so far behind competition is not even an option. More often than not, survival is not an option. Which, once again, is why solo-Q is so popular... BECAUSE there are no pre-mades.
6) Yes, gear gap IS a part of the problem, BUT to say that pre-mades have nothing to do with the gear gap is a little naïve. Most pre-mades are guild based. These guilds have regular events to help their players lvl up & gear up as quickly as possible. Some guilds even have banks full of epic gearz for their members to choose from.
ok, so.... 2 final points. You are right, gear gap is an problem with the current PvP mode. Pando is not wrong, the pre-mades are ALSO a problem. Given the popularity of Solo-Q, most players see pre-mades as the bigger problem.
Lastly, it is possible to set up a pre-made of 2k, 2.5k. or 3k IL players. But why would you? Given the current matching system, I don't see any reason why that "under=geared" team would expect to meet BiS PvP guild pre-mades any less thn a pure pug team would. & the results would be the same.