Duo started off as a fail

bittynation · September 2016

The system must be broke or too easy to game, because I keep running into 3 & 4 players from the same guild vs PUG team. Big fat FAIL!

loboguild · September 2016

It's because duo now allows to sync queue even better. No surprise here. It seems to be a flaw of the matchmaking and of course guilds are exploiting it.

nilchet · September 2016

Sorry Dev-folk. have to concur. duel Q is the same thing as normal dom matches. i havent had a single one yet that was even close. this is a waste of time. thanks for tryin it though
would be handy to bring back single Q though..full time perhaps?

fastrean3 · October 2016

I think duo queue is not suitable for domination as the pool size is small that some players can be easily to premade sync to 4.

Put the duo queue into GG and siege may be able to provide proper the data to u

rayrdan · October 2016

xsayajinx1 said:
Big PvP guilds sync their queue to get in the same team, it's definitely not the matchmaking. The matchmaking is fine and working as it should.

*sarcasm off*

they indeed sync q but regardless the matchmaking sucks

santralafax · October 2016

clonkyo1 said:
It's pretty funny read here the very same thing i stated back on "Solo Q" thread and i were called "troll" there.

It wasn't nearly this pronounced in soloqueue. Good matches were made all the time.*NOT* what we are seeing in Duo Queue.

drkbodhi · October 2016

I know what Santra says is true... as the first day of matches ALWAYS had more that 2 members of a PvP guild on the opposite team. In one match I had 2 duos from 2 PvP guilds vs me and 1 3.5k iL and the rest under 2.2k iL.

I have entered the regular queue and I was fighting the same exact groups. A Duo queue OUGHT to be in matches where they fight Duo Queue entrants and Solo queue entrants... you should never be able to even sync a premade into either queue.

fastrean3 · October 2016

Previous solo queue event usually 2-3 match will get 1st win of date, but this duo queue, play 2- 3hours not even get 1win

jhpnw · October 2016

if you que TR CW and GF HR from same guild at same time odds would be to get all 4 same team but if qued CW TR and CW TR I would guess they would be matched against each other so cue 2 of same as DUO should guarantee only 2 TRs on same team or what ever qued duo

ilmenira · October 2016

... all this doesn't sound encouraging...
but it's what i would have expected of DUO + rather faulty matching system...

ilmenira · October 2016

ok first 2 matches to check DUO for real... both ended 1000 : less than 100 ... the usual feeling... one lost one won... in the lost one pvp BIS duo from pvp guild on the other side + IL gap ... in won one steep IL difference: 3k chars against 2k chars...
both matches exceedingly boring... there is not much joy even in winning like this...

bring back SOLO queue pls! :-)

loboguild · October 2016

xsayajinx1 wrote: »

How can you tell, that you are going to be in the same team, if you "sync" 2x duo teams?

Guilds/Friends seem to be prioritized by matchmaking when building teams. Was already an issue with the solo queue and now it's really easy to get a partial premade of four into the match.

santralafax · October 2016

xsayajinx1 said:
How can you tell, that you are going to be in the same team, if you "sync" 2x duo teams?

I've been in at least one match where the two duos appeared to be split, all from the same guild. But you, yourself, have said the matchmaking is broken and likely to put all the BIS on one side and lowbie pugs on the other....

I noticed this a bit with Soloqueue, but that queue was a better randomizer than what we are seeing with the current queue.

elrondknight · October 2016

metalldjt said:

santralafax said:

xsayajinx1 said:
How can you tell, that you are going to be in the same team, if you "sync" 2x duo teams?
I've been in at least one match where the two duos appeared to be split, all from the same guild. But you, yourself, have said the matchmaking is broken and likely to put all the BIS on one side and lowbie pugs on the other....

I noticed this a bit with Soloqueue, but that queue was a better randomizer than what we are seeing with the current queue.
in the current que that i have experienced it placed 1 duo que from EoA and 1 duo que from Forsaken rebels in separate teams, while it filled the others with solo que, the match was quite close, both of the players from both side were displeased by the pugs and how they werent able to understand the meaning of cappin nodes. But i guess Cryptic cant do anything to improve the pugs.

How, pray tell, are PUG's supposed to improve when their only experience with PvP is either getting one-shot if they try to fight, or capping for points if they call "GG"?

elrondknight · October 2016

drkbodhi said:
I know what Santra says is true... as the first day of matches ALWAYS had more that 2 members of a PvP guild on the opposite team. In one match I had 2 duos from 2 PvP guilds vs me and 1 3.5k iL and the rest under 2.2k iL.

I have entered the regular queue and I was fighting the same exact groups. A Duo queue OUGHT to be in matches where they fight Duo Queue entrants and Solo queue entrants... you should never be able to even sync a premade into either queue.

the solution to this is simple... once you queue for solo.duo, 5x5 queue grays out, once you queue 5x5, solo queue grays out.

santralafax · October 2016

metalldjt said:

santralafax said:

xsayajinx1 said:
How can you tell, that you are going to be in the same team, if you "sync" 2x duo teams?
I've been in at least one match where the two duos appeared to be split, all from the same guild. But you, yourself, have said the matchmaking is broken and likely to put all the BIS on one side and lowbie pugs on the other....

I noticed this a bit with Soloqueue, but that queue was a better randomizer than what we are seeing with the current queue.
in the current que that i have experienced it placed 1 duo que from EoA and 1 duo que from Forsaken rebels in separate teams, while it filled the others with solo que, the match was quite close, both of the players from both side were displeased by the pugs and how they werent able to understand the meaning of cappin nodes. But i guess Cryptic cant do anything to improve the pugs.

It sounds like you had a pretty good game. At least 5 people understood how to play, I bet there were more. The match was close. Since at least three people on your team were experts, did you win?

fuxion · October 2016

The solo queue system worked alot better imo.

Please make solo queue system permanent option.

As many have stated here , Domination Duo queue syncing is definitely an issue, if this can be addressed it could work ...BUT in general the solo queue system yielded much better results in terms of balance and duration of matches etc (although not perfect but nothing will ever be)

lonewolfmk1 · October 2016

I agree, as i already wrote in the solo que thread, if one side gets 2 players from a pvp guild and the other dosent, its gg. You can compensate one BIS player, if you play smart, but not two.

ltgamesttv · October 2016

After having Qd for literally hundreds of Duo Q matches my finding is that the Q is completely random. I've been put into groups with a second duo Q of BIS from my guilds as well as other guilds.

I've been put into groups with 2 HRs 2DCs. I've been put into groups where my entire team was 2k or less vs. 3.8k + troll comps on other side.

There is no balancing by IL or by Class. If it is by ELO there is no way to tell because your rating jumps by leaps and bounds forwards and backwards on the leaderboard.

This conspiracy nonsense that PVP premades are syncing Qs comes from angry pugs who believe that PVPers are the illuminati of Domination. If they're going to put together a premade the most likely way of getting that done is getting guildmates to Q while you kick your pugs.

Duo Q is what you'd expect. A greater likelihood of having 2 BIS on one side and a lopsided match.

I truly wish people would stop with their unprovable assumptions. We can only work towards some type of fun fair matches if we give objective feedback. Throwing skewed angry perspectives into the mix only clouds the real issues.

ltgamesttv · October 2016

@panderus Could you please just clarify for us if there is a matchmaking system? I mean we have been guessing at it for mods now. If I could have anything in the game from the devs it would be more transparency.

Sorry to ping you, I'm sure you get loads of these per day but you are the most active dev on the forums.

ayroux · October 2016

tolkienbuff said:
@panderus Could you please just clarify for us if there is a matchmaking system? I mean we have been guessing at it for mods now. If I could have anything in the game from the devs it would be more transparency.

Sorry to ping you, I'm sure you get loads of these per day but you are the most active dev on the forums.

LT, you know as well as I do they tossed ELO and matchmaking out the window when players were complaining of 1hr long que times. The PVP population is too low for them to even TRY and use a matchmaking system.

defiantone99 said:
That is what I have been saying forever, they removed any form of matchmaking a long time ago. Yet, people tell me I am wrong. Just a simple form would help, like by Tenacity level and Armor Pen.

Agreed. Removed it a while ago. They cant really use anything item specific though like tenacity or ARP because players can swap gear out. Many players run around in PVE gear waiting for a Que pop and then swap gear. Any type of matchmaking based on gear will fail.

Locking gear to que for PVP is too harsh and only creates a large problem since now no non-PVP player will want to do PVP since they dont want to be forced to sit around in PE or the SH in PVP gear NOT doing anything hoping for a POP.

This is why I proposed a "PVP level" system:http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion

This would not only be FUN but also create matchmaking for you without relying on item level. It creates a "reason" to PVP and those players who DONT PVP often, will be low level and thus matched against non-PVPers like themselves making it a much more fun match.

panderus · October 2016

There is indeed still a matchmaking system, however it is not as efficient as one might expect since it is tuned to get players playing in a match in a shorter time frame and there is not a large enough spread of players always playing PvP. This means the folks higher ranked often get paired with lower ranked players because they play more often but also just because there aren't a huge pool of players at any given point.

In order for us to make the matchmaking better we would need to have longer queue times and/or get more players into the queues (this can be done with improving PvP in general or having better bonus times that change player behavior).

tldr; matchmaking is on, but we need more players to make it more noticeably effective.

rayrdan · October 2016

panderus said:
There is indeed still a matchmaking system, however it is not as efficient as one might expect since it is tuned to get players playing in a match in a shorter time frame and there is not a large enough spread of players always playing PvP. This means the folks higher ranked often get paired with lower ranked players because they play more often but also just because there aren't a huge pool of players at any given point.

In order for us to make the matchmaking better we would need to have longer queue times and/or get more players into the queues (this can be done with improving PvP in general or having better bonus times that change player behavior).

tldr; matchmaking is on, but we need more players to make it more noticeably effective.

@panderus hi, let me just say 2 things: solo q was 3x better than duo q, still duo q is 10x times better than normal pvp we have now. its only passed like what 15 hours? well i already smashed a keyboard.
second thing: i believe there is indeed a matchmaking system but is pairing more often than not the stronger players all in party like if the matchmaking is taking into account some sort of friendship (either friend list or guild association).

btw bring back the solo q as soon as possible, thanks

ayroux · October 2016

metalldjt said:

have you guys thought of giving players a predetermined ammount of stats when they are in PvP ?

such as it happend with Sahha balls where everyone were stripped of their stats, you can do the same of givin to everyone a certain ammount of stats... even thou this will kill the enchants...but maybe not to kill enchantments we can have like this

all rank 8 are boosted to rank 10 level and all rank 12 are downgraded to rank 10. this way the item game is closing down.

another idea is to make PvP gear with 3/4 bonuses meant for PvP similar to Stronghold weapons(2% MORE DAMAGE PER STACK) if its weared by the other 4 party members the bonus is increased..If its possible MAKE all the sets Adamant, Lionsmane , Prestige and Warborn give the same item level and share the same bonus, therefor there will be more ways for people obtaining the pvp sets that everyone is using decreasing the gap.

@metalldjt you are proposing this but were against them just stripping off Boons and Mount bonuses from PVP?
Id rather have them just do that, then have them mess with changing everyones gear once they get into PVP.

The actualy "gear gap" difference CAN be made to be very small if they either remove tenacity on gear and add it to every player as a "base" or just make "decent" PVP gear very easy to obtain... Its all the boons and mount stuff that is the cause for gear gap. If we are trying to "equalize" power in PVP more, the first thing that should be done is the removal of boons and mount bonuses, THEN we can try and mess with other stuff if needed. But doing that would make it a much more level playing ground right off the bat.

@panderus did you happen to look at my proposal that details all this out? http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223273/the-real-issue-with-pvp-and-what-cryptic-can-do-to-fix-it-it-isnt-premades/p1

And then for matchmaking the solution seems very simple as well:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223443/matchmaking-introducing-a-new-pvp-level-for-better-matchmaking-suggestion

superent666 · October 2016

+1 to macjae!!!:) Things like reintroducing diminished returns, nerfing healing from all sources etc. would also improve PVE and PVP in one go:)

Maybe it would be good to do some PVP event - like an equalized gear event running for 3 weeks or so with nice rewards...to draw more players in again and remind them/let them see how fun PVP could be and then after that easing over to a system with actual matchmaking (on top of other very good suggestions...like changes to crit, tenacity/PVP-gear availability etc.)

Why not introduce dynamic bracketing for PVP? Instead of the IL-system a "power level"-system would include everything and rate it better. No fixed brackets like 2000PL-2499PL. Instead set a maximum difference between toons in any given match (plus other possible restrictions...only one of each class..bla). This value could later be easily adjusted in the code in patches...make it bigger if q times are too high...reduce it if q times are ok in order to further improve gaming experience...
Make progression (refinement etc.) easier in order to ensure there´s no loneliness at the top and to please players after major nerfage.
Dual-spec would be awesome of course for a ton of reasons...but even without it...I don´t really see a problem with running around in PVP gear doing some PVE stuff while waiting for the q to pop.

If there was some proper matchmaking, a good overall gaming experience and nice rewards PVP might very well be the most exciting thing to do after you know every monster in every dungeon by name...

Well, thinking about this...considering everything it would be a major task for a sizable team...I would agree with everyone who says there are no very simple solutions at this point...they´ve clearly shot themselves in the foot by allowing the power gap to grow so big without a playerbase that is big enough for toons to be separated accordingly (in PVE and PVP) ...but one might say: they have made their bed...now they have to lie in it...OR they could just introduce more fishing and a new even more powerful weapon to make everything even more lame -.-...and do some minor changes to PVP that will not good enough in the end..

jonkoca · October 2016

All we need is soloQ, and a matchmaking algorithm that adds up the total item level of 10 queuing players, divides that number by two, then juggles players into 2 teams whos' total item levels reasonably match that number.

Wouldn't be perfect, but it would be practical, and produce competitive matches more often than not.

loboguild · October 2016

panderus wrote: »

There is indeed still a matchmaking system, however it is not as efficient as one might expect since it is tuned to get players playing in a match in a shorter time frame and there is not a large enough spread of players always playing PvP. This means the folks higher ranked often get paired with lower ranked players because they play more often but also just because there aren't a huge pool of players at any given point.

In order for us to make the matchmaking better we would need to have longer queue times and/or get more players into the queues (this can be done with improving PvP in general or having better bonus times that change player behavior).

tldr; matchmaking is on, but we need more players to make it more noticeably effective.

@panderus are you willing or able to comment on the observation that guildmates and friends are more likely to get grouped when they sync queues? It's highly counterproductive to the otherwise great idea of a solo queue. It should be truly random.

schietindebux · October 2016

jonkoca said:
All we need is soloQ, and a matchmaking algorithm that adds up the total item level of 10 queuing players, divides that number by two, then juggles players into 2 teams whos' total item levels reasonably match that number.

Wouldn't be perfect, but it would be practical, and produce competitive matches more often than not.

I would suggest first to get IL more in line, repecting SH Boons, Insigniaboni, legendary mounts/mount boni like axebeak
In case someone has zero tenacity he just should not be allowed to join PVP at all, get a requirement like 2500 minimum tenacity, that´s easy to obtain at level 70, otherwise it´s useless to implement a matchmaker following gear/IL only

schietindebux · October 2016

clonkyo1 said:

schietindebux said:
get a requirement like 2500 minimum tenacity, that´s easy to obtain at level 70
"Easy to obtain 2.5k Tenacity at level 70" ???? Am i missing something here? because i have an old toon wearing the Elemental Burning Set and she barely has 2k Tenacity. With 2 Warborn set pieces, i get like 1700 Tenacity... So, again, am i missing something here or is just you who put "2500" instead of "1500"?? O.oUu

Take it as a guideline and stop counting peas

at least any kind of minimum requirement is needed, warborn set is >2700 tenacity (4pieces), burningset is >2000, so one ring on top, guild executioner armor (blue) is 3226 tenacity ! (8pieces) so what´s the deal, you can get it for guildmarks, things are allready obtainable for every motivated player.

schietindebux · October 2016

clonkyo1 said:

schietindebux said:
at least any kind of minimum requirement is needed, warborn set is >2700 tenacity (4pieces), burningset is >2000, so one ring on top, guild executioner armor (blue) is 3226 tenacity ! (8pieces) so what´s the deal, you can get it for guildmarks, things are allready obtainable for every motivated player.
The problem, then, is that you're taking into account a side of the game that not a lot of players can use at all. If you want to bring more players into PvP, what you should do is "remove walls" not put even more walls that we do have already.

EDIT and BTW: I'm a guildless player, how i can archive those amounts?? Hope you don't say "by join a big guild".

Guildless... only option is get rid of tenacity in a whole and SH boons on top that way, I would be pleased since none of those things are needed for PVP , same with axebeak, OL enchants, insignias etc.
But can´t imagine this would happen, so I think in smaller steps.

santralafax · October 2016

metalldjt said:
makin the tenacity DEFAULT, without placing on PvP Gear sounds DECENT to me, but you still need PvP Gear with Bonuses that work against players, such Damage increase/DR Debuff etc.

I don't really see why there's a need to separate PVP and PVE gear, if tenacity is put on the character. You're always welcome to carry a second chestpiece if you want, with different enchants, and perhaps assault instead of raid, for example.

Duo started off as a fail

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