The Future of the GF

theguiido · August 2016

Easily one of the most forgotten things I see no GF talk about is the statements @amenar said regarding Guardian Fighters future. These statements created a whole new outlook on the GF's future, and in my opinion, has stricken me to believe our feats will be fixed, changed (for the better) and buffed eventually at some point. It has also left me in a state of wonder, curiosity, and a little fearful of whats to come in the future, and I will explain exactly what I have been thinking and researching since he has said these things a month ago.

Now of course they constantly have to work on new content, and new developmental ideas, but fixing long term problems with classes and content (especially classes) doesn't really come to mind in Cryptic's head and they have much more important things to work on then this right now. So it will be a miracle if they actually take the time to read this. But as I was saying, there were some very powerful powerful statements said on both the GWF and GF Official Threads by our dear amenar that should not be taken without caution.

I will first talk about the questionable and bad/unforeseen future that has occurred to me after reading a statement Chris wrote on "Official Great Weapon Fighter Changes" Many GF's I am sure haven't seen this as this was located on the GWF thread, but this discussed how GWF's and GF's will be separated slowly overtime and we will likely be seeing this happen slowly over time more and more.

"The Great Weapon Fighter and Guardian Fighter are two very different classes, and trying to balance them separately while leaving large chunks of powers that are identical between them has proven to not work out well for us. Powers that are very desirable by the GF are worthless to the GWF, and vice versa. As such, you'll see more and more changes where the GF and GWF versions of powers grow further apart. Internally, we broke all of the links that tied them together, and are now treating them as completely separate powers - albeit with the same names and very similar effects."

This makes me happy as I am sure it makes every other GF out there happy that we are finally treated as our own class. Finally, we are able to not be similar to the GWF in anyway. However, this personally makes me very questionable and a little fearful more than anything. Why do I say that? When Chris states "As such, you'll see more and more changes where the GF and GWF versions of powers grow further apart." This scares me for a variety of reasons.

First off, how will Cryptic know exactly what belongs to the GWF vs what belongs to the GF? Lets be honest, Steel Grace 40% Control Resist for Sword Master GF's was great for GF's. Unlike popular opinion to others who don't play the GF, using your shield to withstand CC effects is a lot harder than what other classes interpretation of it is, and as such, using a passive while retaining for example a Negation Enchantment over an Elven Battle Enchantment was great because it didn't hinder your survivability. It also aloud you to put down your shield for a little bit and take some damage because you had nothing to worry about when being CC'd and survivability wouldn't be a problem because you're wearing a negation. Steel Resolve this new passive is cool, but I think much more GF's would of preferred Steel Grace over the current Steel Resolve. That is just one example I can use on top of many I already thought of. Another example is Trample The Fallen. an Iron Vanguard Passive for both GF and GWF that is easily one of my favorite things in this game. Iron Vanguard GF deal damage when they are controlling a target, and removing this passive from Iron Vanguard GF's would be a catastrophic move by Cryptic. Crushing Pin, a feat increases damage we deal to controlled targets by ~10%, stacking both together further increases control damage. This really doesn't belong to the GWF in anyway because they aren't controlling targets as much as GF's.

See what i am saying? I hope Cryptic realizes what they are doing before blindly moving thing around because one slip up and that would be it for me on this game. My GF is my main class, and my only class I really enjoy playing a lot on. As I am sure they are for all you GF lovers out there.

However, I have hope, amenar also stated that the developers have plans for us in the future to help us out with feats and diversity in paragon paths. Hopefully, just hopefully, they will also fix the many bugs in our class, (Sheild Glitch, Villains Menace CC glitch, activation times, etc..) "there are some great ideas in here, many which align with our plans, but not all of those plans will be enacted this module. We have longer term plans to help with some of the larger disparities between specs (both Paragon Path, and Feat tree), but they're bigger than what will go into this module. While I can certainly understand that fixing everything right now would be preferable, the reality is that changes are going to be somewhat incremental.

For this module, the intent is to move things in the right direction, not arrive at "all better now."

This gives me hope that eventually, our feats and powers and bugs will be fixed in due time. I am not sure when, but hopefully this year. I can only hope that some of the things that they work on are,

~Remove most if not ALL ties from feats to powers. Ill explain what I mean by that.
most classes in this game do not have the struggle of having 16 feats be linked up to some sort of power (Encounter, At-will, Passive) and I would love to say I enjoy this a lot, but I do not. I am not the only GF who wants "stand alone" feats such as control resist, and more utilization of our mark. replacing useless feats like cruel cut style and crushing shield, and Iron Focus with better more aimed feats for that tree. The best example of this is the OP. If you take a look at their feats, you can see all of their feats have special abilities that the GF counter part does not have. It would be nice to have something similar to that instead of "Anvil of Doom can now Stun the target for 1 second".

~Address quality of life issues with this class please!
Slow at wills, super long cool downs, really long activation times, etc etc.. I cannot even begin to address how annoying it is to cast an ITF or Villains Menace and be interrupted and immobilized by an HR. The activation times especially for the duration of the buffs need to be reduced. Not slightly, but significantly. Crushing surge is so slow and to this day I ask why. Tide of Iron, Iron Warrior, Weapon Master Strike, Anvil of Doom, Indomitable Strength, even Villains Menace AFTER the activation issue was addressed is still way too long. I can go on and on. But more importantly, please fix the issues with the description of powers. Prime example is Villains Menace. It doesn't stop Dazes, or stuns, or roots, or anything really. Its bugged out so much sometimes that even a fellow GF's bull charge goes through the daily even though the buff is still active. Indomitable Strength misses so much, that you waste your action points and do the animation but nothing happens. No debuff on attacker, no damage dealt. Jagged Blades not giving action points. Seriously address these issues.

~Address feat path description to match it up with reality (and make some serious changes to feats)
Where in the feats do I gain enhanced critical's or combat advantage in the Conquerer tree? Where in the Tactician tree is control bonus, or controlling anyone. Not really "leaving foes where they ought to be" with just some lame support buffs. I would love to see many feats be revamped and buffed significantly because "Iron Guard" doesn't really do much against orcus when I'm face tanking him and his damage is not significantly reduced. Changing feats around would do great wonders and you can start by making some serious changes to the feat trees. Both feat buff, revamp, and changing descriptions.

Those are just some of the examples of many I have thought of while evaluating and some advice to give developers. Like I said it will be a saint if they listened to this but It's worth a try. @panderus @strumslinger

oneblueeyethree · August 2016

You obviously put a lot of thought into your message. I hope the Dev's take time to read it. The fact that you wrote it from a constructive point of view can help hold their attention. When posters start whining or finger pointing like children, they end up wondering why no one takes them seriously.

I agree with your points of view. The GF is my main and favorite class. I started with an SW but ditched it as soon as I hit lvl 70 for a GF. I put zero dollars into the game until I got my GF to 70 and started running epic dungeons with Guildies. Once I found the right niche for me to fill and had a blast doing it, I started actively supporting the game with small Zen purchases and still do.

I really enjoy playing this game as a GF over all other classes and truly hope that the coming changes help me support my guild-mates as they continue to ask me to run dungeons as a tank/support character. The best part of the game for me is being able to help newer 70's get through content and get geared up.

As long as I can hold aggro and face tank epic dungeons, I will have a smile on my face.

Here's hoping the future tweaks allow us GF's to continue to serve that role in a balanced fashion!

trentbail21 · August 2016

The ties to all our passives and paragon paths is ridiculous @theguiido I completely agree with you why can't you villians menace out of courage breaker and why can't I unstoppable out of it either? Things we will never know lol. Many feats are out of place for both of our classes as well like my battlefury and unfettered strike feats in the Destroyer tree and not in the Instigator tree? what?

I hope they read this and finally realize that they need to cut off the chains and make our classes actually separate instead of me having the big sword and you get a shield. They still have alot of work to do with moving and fixing things so it actually makes sense..

-Trent the Barbarian

stark760 · August 2016

Good message. I wouldn't count on new changes to "quality of life" on recharge speeds. They just "adjusted" the timers on many skills. I respec'd as a IV, but am very surprised cleave was almost as slow as Crushing surge. Going back to SM just for WMS. What upset's me is the passive's for IV. 1 is a tank skill(ferocious reaction, every 90 secs only), 1 incoming healing?, and 1 DPS for every kill. On the flip side, SM passives seems better for a tank. Also don't understand why GWF get a feat for improving Con, and we get 1 for strength? Did some figuring today, base player starts with roughly 21.6k HP at lvl 70, no bonuses. Add in 3 points for toughness(9%) and you get 23550, and then my 25 Con gives 60% bonus, so it goes to 41k? And then the gear, boons, and others go in separate stat. So wasting 3 points on feats gets you 1800 HP only? And doesn't help the gear totals at all? I had my Con up to 30, and finally saw I was only getting 1K HP for each point. So removing 5 points(20%), and 3 feat points(9%), only costs me 8k total HP. They need to fix Con.

theguiido · August 2016

I absolutely love these responses. I love your guys's involvement because it proves you guys care as much as I do. @trentbail21 I truly never understood why we share anything. Why we both have fighter in our names. We were called Warriors and you were called Barbarians.

So many things I can say, as much as you can, things we will never know at the end of the day. I don't even know if this will ever be addressed, but I will always give it a try, I wish I could say more, but at this state of the game, I am not sure what to say.

diogene0 · August 2016

While I appreciate the effort you put to write such a long post, I think that you've missed the mark when it comes to game balance. As someone who also plays a GF occasionally, but also plays other classes, what you're asking for is not reasonable in any way. I believe that if something has to happen to our class, this should absolutely be the opposite of buffs. While the GF is, in terms of equipment and overall development, my weakest active character, this is maybe my strongest chraracter. Here is why:

- it's way too easy to achieve either damage or CC immunity for long periods of time (villain's menace, steel defence) too frequently with the tactician path.
- Self-healing is too conveniently accessible. The GF class makes healers completely unneeded and undesirable, due to how fighter's recovery works and due to the ability to hide behind a long-lasting pool of stamina that blocks too much of the incoming damage, even for a lowbie GF character.
- damage is crazy. My little GF, if I spec it as conqueror, with almost no boon, 7k power, 0 armpen and 1k crit can do more damage than my righteous buff cleric that's fully developped. How does that make sense?

I'm convinced that the devs will make the right choice, and put the GF more in line with other classes - just like they did it with rangers that went either full CC or full damage but not both -, ie forcing to chose between either survivability or dps, and nuke self-healing so that Healadins and Faithful DCs have a role to play in this game.

thefabricant · August 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG9-Eb9HwkY

All I really have to say about mod 10 GF DPS is a skill named commander's strike needs a serious rework.

Commander's strike on kain (a gf who is not built properly for dps)

Commander's Strike on Ork (a proper dps gf)

Ages ago I predicted DPS GF 1 day becoming meta. Well, now it is. I know 6 top tier dps gfs now instead of only 2 and almost every GF I know has swapped to conq in pve from tact or prot.

silverkelt · August 2016

GFs can compete with any striker class in the game for pure damage.

When you compare this class to the other tank class, it far out achieves a much higher and quicker support and dps role then its counterpart.

If you do not realize this, you simply do not understand the balance of the game atm. Its not that Im opposed to the GF having DPS potential of this nature, but it should have massive penalty on its utility function to do it.

Yes.. they have to drop kv to compete.. but they still allows them ITF and CS. Simply put, this is the main issue.

Im ok with GF competing in DPS top end, Im not ok that they can compete and still tank and buff team to such a huge extent, this is the flaw in its design. A class that can provide massive utility and massive dps at the same time, is far to unbalanced in its role.

It will have to be fixed at some point.. Sadly CRYPTIC once again listened to the wrong feedback, made its own un-wise decisions and has no clue on what happens in the game. If it wasnt for some of us calling foul , broken HAMSTER things like the Frost enchantment would go on for years.

theguiido · August 2016

I just hope in the future, my suggestions and the suggestions of fellow GF's are implemented because I am tired of the same issues day in day out. Just hope what amenar said hopefully becomes a reality. Thats all.

@thefabricant @silverkelt @diogene0 The reality is that this "flaw" you guys say is in every class in this game, DPS classes being too tanky, at certain item levels you don't even need heals, or really a tank (if you don't care) things on classes that don't seem to add up (to you). Every class has some very questionable things. The GF unlike the OP is a more aggressive focused tank than its OP counterpart for a number of reasons. A simple look at its passives and powers will clearly show you that. It is a great overall tank that gains great damage through buffs. (Buffs and Control= Damage for the GF) This will never be taken away from the GF because it is not a flaw, thats how it was designed, and they will not listen to you guys QQing AGAIN. Especially you silver and diogene.

However what I do agree with are some moves like commanding strike that are still broken. That was pointed out with actual evidence.

oliboyph · September 2016

I've always thought that CS should be credited as a buff to the dps source. Making it come from the GF just lends the skill to looping buffs.

wabber · September 2016

Sometimes you see these great well thought out posts, someone spent their time writing up and you think wow this op knows exactly what you are thinking!

Then along comes some random person that writes : hey I don't really play this class that often, but I play x class and I think yours needs a nerf because I have one at 2k yada yada.

So I think to myself well I would love to have DC skill anointed army that allows me to take no damage for 4 hits .
my dinky 30-35% dmg buff would be nice to swapped with their 40% damage buff holy ground
Or even the massive amount of temp HP with binding oath that works off their HP stat that is working as intended with their non broken HP stat.

Then I remember that I chose to build up my gf instead of a DC or a paladin and go on about my day, hoping every class gets fixed in their own class review and it doesn't hurt the game to much. So I don't have to constantly find new friends to play with. People come go or reroll based on what the developers see here and in their own testing, so please stop with the advocating of nerfs as it might be your class being focused down. Instead advocate buffs or at least fixes to ongoing issues such as constitution not giving what it should in HP. Thanks.

thefabricant · September 2016

wabber#5907 said:
Sometimes you see these great well thought out posts, someone spent their time writing up and you think wow this op knows exactly what you are thinking!

Then along comes some random person that writes : hey I don't really play this class that often, but I play x class and I think yours needs a nerf because I have one at 2k yada yada.

So I think to myself well I would love to have DC skill anointed army that allows me to take no damage for 4 hits .

my dinky 30-35% dmg buff would be nice to swapped with their 40% damage buff holy ground

Or even the massive amount of temp HP with binding oath that works off their HP stat that is working as intended with their non broken HP stat.

Then I remember that I chose to build up my gf instead of a DC or a paladin and go on about my day, hoping every class gets fixed in their own class review and it doesn't hurt the game to much. So I don't have to constantly find new friends to play with. People come go or reroll based on what the developers see here and in their own testing, so please stop with the advocating of nerfs as it might be your class being focused down. Instead advocate buffs or at least fixes to ongoing issues such as constitution not giving what it should in HP. Thanks.

1) Commander's Strike is definitely not behaving as intended. I want it fixed. This is changing a skill to do what it is intended to do, not a complaint about the fact that what it is intended to do is too strong.

2) Sometimes, specific mechanics are just too strong. Buffing everyone else to compensate for said mechanics would destroy any hope of challenging content.

3) Constitution gives exactly as much HP is it is supposed to give. It gives HP based on you base HP and not your buffed HP, which means that it is a miserably small amount. You might not like this, but it is functioning the way it is intended.

diogene0 · September 2016

wabber#5907 said:
Sometimes you see these great well thought out posts, someone spent their time writing up and you think wow this op knows exactly what you are thinking!

Then along comes some random person that writes : hey I don't really play this class that often, but I play x class and I think yours needs a nerf because I have one at 2k yada yada.

So I think to myself well I would love to have DC skill anointed army that allows me to take no damage for 4 hits .

my dinky 30-35% dmg buff would be nice to swapped with their 40% damage buff holy ground

Or even the massive amount of temp HP with binding oath that works off their HP stat that is working as intended with their non broken HP stat.

Then I remember that I chose to build up my gf instead of a DC or a paladin and go on about my day, hoping every class gets fixed in their own class review and it doesn't hurt the game to much. So I don't have to constantly find new friends to play with. People come go or reroll based on what the developers see here and in their own testing, so please stop with the advocating of nerfs as it might be your class being focused down. Instead advocate buffs or at least fixes to ongoing issues such as constitution not giving what it should in HP. Thanks.

No. The GF class only got buffs since mod 1, and it was already good back then... It's time to undo the damage that's been done. The choice should be explicit and drastic: it's either tanking OR damage OR healing. Not everything at once in one character. If you tank then you're expected to do traditional mmo tank level damage. You can't heal yourself either. If you dps then you have little survivability. Every self-heal should come at the cost of a major loss in dps or survivability. If you heal, even if it's just yourself, you're not supposed to be able to sustain big hits. This has been a good way to enforce team play and a need for varied roles and gameplay in such MMOs for a long time and it works extremely well.

To clarify what I'm saying, I think conqueror shouldn't even have access to the shield block mechanic, but it should be replaced by something else. Like an encounter that knock backs enemies. Likewise, Fighter's recovery needs a rework, badly. The HR's "sit and meditate" daily is an excellent example of good self-heal design for dps and tank classes, and it should be the reference when reworking this GF skill.

theguiido · September 2016

diogene0 said:

wabber#5907 said:
Sometimes you see these great well thought out posts, someone spent their time writing up and you think wow this op knows exactly what you are thinking!

Then along comes some random person that writes : hey I don't really play this class that often, but I play x class and I think yours needs a nerf because I have one at 2k yada yada.

So I think to myself well I would love to have DC skill anointed army that allows me to take no damage for 4 hits .

my dinky 30-35% dmg buff would be nice to swapped with their 40% damage buff holy ground

Or even the massive amount of temp HP with binding oath that works off their HP stat that is working as intended with their non broken HP stat.

Then I remember that I chose to build up my gf instead of a DC or a paladin and go on about my day, hoping every class gets fixed in their own class review and it doesn't hurt the game to much. So I don't have to constantly find new friends to play with. People come go or reroll based on what the developers see here and in their own testing, so please stop with the advocating of nerfs as it might be your class being focused down. Instead advocate buffs or at least fixes to ongoing issues such as constitution not giving what it should in HP. Thanks.
No. The GF class only got buffs since mod 1, and it was already good back then... It's time to undo the damage that's been done. The choice should be explicit and drastic: it's either tanking OR damage OR healing. Not everything at once in one character. If you tank then you're expected to do traditional mmo tank level damage. You can't heal yourself either. If you dps then you have little survivability. Every self-heal should come at the cost of a major loss in dps or survivability. If you heal, even if it's just yourself, you're not supposed to be able to sustain big hits. This has been a good way to enforce team play and a need for varied roles and gameplay in such MMOs for a long time and it works extremely well.

To clarify what I'm saying, I think conqueror shouldn't even have access to the shield block mechanic, but it should be replaced by something else. Like an encounter that knock backs enemies. Likewise, Fighter's recovery needs a rework, badly. The HR's "sit and meditate" daily is an excellent example of good self-heal design for dps and tank classes, and it should be the reference when reworking this GF skill.

Your proposition is more of "I think this should happen because I say so, I don't really play the class but i'll add in my 2 cents" instead of logical advice, really man you are ridiculous. The GF NEEDED those buffs. I don't care what anyone says. Every GF can tell you the difference between not having those buffs as opposed to having them. We needed them, no ifs ands or buts. What you propose is not a smart idea, like AT ALL, and will never happen. Each path of the Guardian is meant to tank, whether it's Protector, Tactician or even Conquerer, same as a GWF being able to go unstoppable, a CW being able to control, or a HR being able to use his Bow. Wouldn't make that much sense for a combat HR just using melee blades now does it??

And there is no denying the GF is a more "aggressive" tank than the OP. The GWF is shared with us for sake.

The Oathbound Paladin has no where near the offensive capabilities the GF has and for good reason. Look at the Encounters and over all Powers of the GF, they were bred for Taunting, hand to hand combat, pulling agro, drawing foes away from allies, making sure allies have increased Damage Resistances, and the GF had and can heal them selves if needed.

Where as the Paladin is much more focused on the defensive side of things, interruptions, keeping foes right there and nowhere near allies, healing themselves and allies, making sure foes do not affect group members and allies in any way without going through the Paladin first. and an overall better tank for holding damage as they have the ability to have much more outgoing/incoming damage reductions with at wills and encounters, feats (both heroic and paragon), damage absorption and much higher damage resistance, and HP. Further proving they are a much better defensive tank.

There is a clear and cut difference between both tanks, yet they have the same abilities to do the same things on different scales.

GF= Offensive/ Taunting and Drawing Agro and pulling foes Away away from allies

OP= Defensive/ Healing and Protecting allies ensuring your allies are kept safe

Obviously both have those abilities but for the over all picture here, that is what they are when you look at powers and skills.

Do you see me calling the Paladin a DC? NO! because thats not what it is. Both tanks have the abilities to do everything you are opposed of saying (dealing damage(Conquerer/Justice), healing them selves(Light/Tactition aka AP city) and being able to tank(Bulwark/Protector) and yet you are just pinning the GF. Get over yourself.

Theres already threads and comments on here where people want the OP to have a base damage increase due to frustrating soloing content. Back to square one. Wouldn't be surprised if I saw you there.

Then we will have people like you going there and saying "NO! it's a tank class! theres no way it should be doing this much damage!"

like you said,

"If you tank then you're expected to do traditional mmo tank level damage. You can't heal yourself either. If you dps then you have little survivability. Every self-heal should come at the cost of a major loss in dps or survivability. If you heal, even if it's just yourself, you're not supposed to be able to sustain big hits. This has been a good way to enforce team play and a need for varied roles and gameplay in such MMOs for a long time and it works extremely well."

and hey man I agree with you, completely, but with broken things like mount insignias bonuses, and boons like endless consumption, tenacity, disgusting power creep both PvE and PvP, not even including the low risk/ high reward of some classes, mostly anyone can be a Tank or a Healer on some level (this level really isn't that far off like most people think). And I don't think you are that incompetent to understand what I am saying. This game has added some stuff at the begining of the game, that players like us couldn't of even dreamed of back then. It was so simple, and very easy to understand. Now it is filled with advantages for example a GWF wouldn't need a tank, because it can heal it's self through endless consumption. All it would ultimately need is a healer. A Righteous Devoted Cleric can wear a High Prophet gear set, and have no risk because of endless stamina boons so they can have no end to dodges, HP boons to make classes that aren't tanks at all, be on par with health like wise or even greater than a tank.

See what I am saying? This goes for every class, not mainly for flaws in designs of classes, but flaws in designs of the over all game. What the game has given as opposed to the actual class, because back then when GAUNT was released, a DPS GF in PvP COULD NOT hold up their shield as long as they can now. Thats not a broken class, its a flaw in the games design that just goes to show you how much has changed. Using examples like Fighters Recovery are minuscule compared to the power and survivability other classes can wield as DPS classes.

greyhawk · September 2016

I'm with Sharpedge. Fix Commanders Strike if it's not WAI, but leave the GF alone unless there are other bugs.

Like theguiido said the power creep and healing abilities for ALL classes have devalued having healers in groups. NOT a couple GF skills! Get that 'traditional MMO tank' HAMSTER out if here. Thus is NOT a traditional MMO..

trentbail21 · September 2016

Guardian fighters are fine defensively but in my personal opinion there needs to be a trade off for having that huge shield to hide behind and all. I guess we will have to see how mod 10 effects us.. (Proteus and I are on xbox)

Now all we need to to make rogues more fair... lol ya right I bet all the mods play one.

wabber · September 2016

null
Thanks for the clarification fabricant on number 3 the HP. No I do not like it and before people waste respect on it, it should be added into tooltips for con stat roll and heroic feat. Then I wouldnt feel cheated.

1 and 2 can be rolled into one reply. Yes broken skills like commanders strike should be fixed just as itf was fixed to a reasonable level. Do I want a skill to do more sure who doesn't like feeling stronger but if it trivializes content to the point of not being fun then yes rein it in.

diogene0 · September 2016

theguiido said:

diogene0 said:

wabber#5907 said:
Sometimes you see these great well thought out posts, someone spent their time writing up and you think wow this op knows exactly what you are thinking!

Then along comes some random person that writes : hey I don't really play this class that often, but I play x class and I think yours needs a nerf because I have one at 2k yada yada.

So I think to myself well I would love to have DC skill anointed army that allows me to take no damage for 4 hits .

my dinky 30-35% dmg buff would be nice to swapped with their 40% damage buff holy ground

Or even the massive amount of temp HP with binding oath that works off their HP stat that is working as intended with their non broken HP stat.

Then I remember that I chose to build up my gf instead of a DC or a paladin and go on about my day, hoping every class gets fixed in their own class review and it doesn't hurt the game to much. So I don't have to constantly find new friends to play with. People come go or reroll based on what the developers see here and in their own testing, so please stop with the advocating of nerfs as it might be your class being focused down. Instead advocate buffs or at least fixes to ongoing issues such as constitution not giving what it should in HP. Thanks.
No. The GF class only got buffs since mod 1, and it was already good back then... It's time to undo the damage that's been done. The choice should be explicit and drastic: it's either tanking OR damage OR healing. Not everything at once in one character. If you tank then you're expected to do traditional mmo tank level damage. You can't heal yourself either. If you dps then you have little survivability. Every self-heal should come at the cost of a major loss in dps or survivability. If you heal, even if it's just yourself, you're not supposed to be able to sustain big hits. This has been a good way to enforce team play and a need for varied roles and gameplay in such MMOs for a long time and it works extremely well.

To clarify what I'm saying, I think conqueror shouldn't even have access to the shield block mechanic, but it should be replaced by something else. Like an encounter that knock backs enemies. Likewise, Fighter's recovery needs a rework, badly. The HR's "sit and meditate" daily is an excellent example of good self-heal design for dps and tank classes, and it should be the reference when reworking this GF skill.
Your proposition is more of "I think this should happen because I say so, I don't really play the class but i'll add in my 2 cents" instead of logical advice, really man you are ridiculous. The GF NEEDED those buffs. I don't care what anyone says. Every GF can tell you the difference between not having those buffs as opposed to having them. We needed them, no ifs ands or buts. What you propose is not a smart idea, like AT ALL, and will never happen. Each path of the Guardian is meant to tank, whether it's Protector, Tactician or even Conquerer, same as a GWF being able to go unstoppable, a CW being able to control, or a HR being able to use his Bow. Wouldn't make that much sense for a combat HR just using melee blades now does it??

And there is no denying the GF is a more "aggressive" tank than the OP. The GWF is shared with us for sake.

The Oathbound Paladin has no where near the offensive capabilities the GF has and for good reason. Look at the Encounters and over all Powers of the GF, they were bred for Taunting, hand to hand combat, pulling agro, drawing foes away from allies, making sure allies have increased Damage Resistances, and the GF had and can heal them selves if needed.

Where as the Paladin is much more focused on the defensive side of things, interruptions, keeping foes right there and nowhere near allies, healing themselves and allies, making sure foes do not affect group members and allies in any way without going through the Paladin first. and an overall better tank for holding damage as they have the ability to have much more outgoing/incoming damage reductions with at wills and encounters, feats (both heroic and paragon), damage absorption and much higher damage resistance, and HP. Further proving they are a much better defensive tank.

There is a clear and cut difference between both tanks, yet they have the same abilities to do the same things on different scales.

GF= Offensive/ Taunting and Drawing Agro and pulling foes Away away from allies

OP= Defensive/ Healing and Protecting allies ensuring your allies are kept safe

Obviously both have those abilities but for the over all picture here, that is what they are when you look at powers and skills.

Do you see me calling the Paladin a DC? NO! because thats not what it is. Both tanks have the abilities to do everything you are opposed of saying (dealing damage(Conquerer/Justice), healing them selves(Light/Tactition aka AP city) and being able to tank(Bulwark/Protector) and yet you are just pinning the GF. Get over yourself.

Theres already threads and comments on here where people want the OP to have a base damage increase due to frustrating soloing content. Back to square one. Wouldn't be surprised if I saw you there.

Then we will have people like you going there and saying "NO! it's a tank class! theres no way it should be doing this much damage!"

like you said,

"If you tank then you're expected to do traditional mmo tank level damage. You can't heal yourself either. If you dps then you have little survivability. Every self-heal should come at the cost of a major loss in dps or survivability. If you heal, even if it's just yourself, you're not supposed to be able to sustain big hits. This has been a good way to enforce team play and a need for varied roles and gameplay in such MMOs for a long time and it works extremely well."

and hey man I agree with you, completely, but with broken things like mount insignias bonuses, and boons like endless consumption, tenacity, disgusting power creep both PvE and PvP, not even including the low risk/ high reward of some classes, mostly anyone can be a Tank or a Healer on some level (this level really isn't that far off like most people think). And I don't think you are that incompetent to understand what I am saying. This game has added some stuff at the begining of the game, that players like us couldn't of even dreamed of back then. It was so simple, and very easy to understand. Now it is filled with advantages for example a GWF wouldn't need a tank, because it can heal it's self through endless consumption. All it would ultimately need is a healer. A Righteous Devoted Cleric can wear a High Prophet gear set, and have no risk because of endless stamina boons so they can have no end to dodges, HP boons to make classes that aren't tanks at all, be on par with health like wise or even greater than a tank.

See what I am saying? This goes for every class, not mainly for flaws in designs of classes, but flaws in designs of the over all game. What the game has given as opposed to the actual class, because back then when GAUNT was released, a DPS GF in PvP COULD NOT hold up their shield as long as they can now. Thats not a broken class, its a flaw in the games design that just goes to show you how much has changed. Using examples like Fighters Recovery are minuscule compared to the power and survivability other classes can wield as DPS classes.

Who told you i didn't play my GF? I play it almost every day. Next time you try to use baseless ad hominem arguments like this and the others you use I report you for trolling. My inbox is open for apologies. I refuse to answer to someone who is that much disrespectful, even when they purposefully say misleading things to obtain unnecessary buffs for a class.

abmaiden95 · September 2016

@diogene0 as i've seen you're using a 2k gs or so GF, how can you pretend to know something about it? lol it's like driving a citroen and propose changes to a lambo, it doesn't matter if you play it 2 times a week or everyday you can't make any comparison at those IL.

theguiido · September 2016

@diogene0

"While the GF is, in terms of equipment and overall development, my weakest active character, this is maybe my strongest character." You literally contradicted yourself from previous statements. This is what you said to me. Your knowledge of the class is clearly expressed through your propositions, what you wish to be done, and over all things you say about the class.

Everything I have said is backed up with proof.

~The GF feats are at a horrible state right now, being linked up with any kind of power is a horrible idea, but 16? is an atrocity. No other class deals with this problem but the GF.

~Additionally to my previous statements, the feats (Both Heroic, and Paragon) are very bad in terms of actual feat. I have played most classes in this game,(GF,HR,DC,OP,GWF,SW) and I have never experienced such emotions of being let down when I take a look at the GF feats. Some feats like Terrifying Menace, Surging Tide, Cruel Cut Style, Reinforced Surge, Battle Trample, Crushing Sheild, Armor of Bahamut, are some examples of the 16 feats that literally serve little to no relevance or use to the Guardian Fighter and are unused for obvious and blatant reasons. They aren't good feats. They do not provide any advantage for the fighter, and in all honesty need some major makeovers and changes.

I would love to have feats similar to the Oathbound Paladin, where there is a HUGE difference in variety in terms of build and specing, and having such a huge diversity to choose in feats. Not only that, but to have the ability to have some feats that are very powerful and for the character to enjoy. This was noticed by @amenar and other Developers on some sort of level,

"There are some great ideas in here, many which align with our plans, but not all of those plans will be enacted this module. We have longer term plans to help with some of the larger disparities between specs (both Paragon Path, and Feat tree), but they're bigger than what will go into this module. While I can certainly understand that fixing everything right now would be preferable, the reality is that changes are going to be somewhat incremental."

~Your points on what you say literally make no sense. How would it make any logical sense (just because I'm speced Conquerer) not to have a shield? does it go against in what YOU believe? Heres a reality check for you,

Does taking away a Paladins Sanctuary Mechanic make any sense just because they are speced for Justice? Does taking away a Hunter Rangers Bow and Mechanic roots, make any sense to you if they are speced for combat and want to do heavy melee damage? Does prohibiting a Control Wizard to control enemies stop when they are speced into Thaumaturge? No it doesn't because it takes away their class mechanic and the options they can choose from while retaining their original point of the class.

Tank. Means take a beating. Can be furthered by being Protector or branched off either into a supportive Tactician or an offensive Conquerer.

Specs are their for a reason and like I said, this was NEVER a problem to people until mod after mod, boon after boon, insignia bonus after insignia bonus we see more things that make DPS classes to tanky, and allow other classes like a GF and DC to completely take advantage of the game and dominate in MOD 7-9 especially.

Every GF I have spoken to agrees with me on these things that I have pointed out with the hardships of the GF, not "some what" but all of it. GWF's too like Trent also cannot stand being shared with us. Doesn't make much sense how we are similar to another class and not treated as an individual class now does it? I don't care if you're going to nerf us, but please fix what people are saying.

You have yet to show me any actual proof. All you have done is talk with nothing to really prove but what YOU want done to the class.

This isn't a debate or an argument or to you a "purposefully say misleading things to obtain unnecessary buffs for a class.", I have pointed out the facts in my original post and the majority of people here seem to agree with me. This is a request to developers and feedback from players who actually play the class. Hence, why I put it here on the official class section. Not some person who plays his GF as an alt.

trentbail21 · September 2016

@theguiido Good luck at ever getting a response from a developer.. lol

theguiido · September 2016

trentbail21 said:
@theguiido Good luck at ever getting a response from a developer.. lol

All I can do is try, I won't sit around and watch nothing be done.

greyhawk · September 2016

@theguiido you're totally right man. GFs have sooo many feats that affect one or two powers that no one usually uses. It's terrible design to have that many useless feats in all our trees.

trentbail21 · September 2016

greyhawk#1973 said:
@theguiido you're totally right man. GFs have sooo many feats that affect one or two powers that no one usually uses. It's terrible design to have that many useless feats in all our trees.

@greyhawk GWF's are in the same boat! So many feats are in the wrong trees and NEVER get used especially in PvP. One day they will be looked at maybe!

boromir · September 2016

Proteus..... I couldn't agree more with your assessment. I too have built up every toon type in game besides the cleric.

I feel like the GF community just takes our situation for what it is without complaint. The feats have always been this way, save for the added few that came with mod 6. It makes new players go "hey guys, anyone got a good build?" And the response becomes convoluted to the uninitiated. We can't just say, "hey man yeah, just go down this one tree and all will make sense."

Compared to all other toons.... I recall being able to go full Justice, Trapper, etc. The GF is never a good build if you go down only one tree. A conqueror is never all conqueror tree. You always have to take the much more useful 5% deflect, 5 AC, 10% encounter cool downs. Or swap 5 AC for crushing pin. Same goes for a protector build or even a tactician, you always find yourself using feats from other trees out of necessity.

Heroics: I'm reminded of how our main Attribute "CON" is literally weaker than STR or DEX. Arguments could be made that Charisma is even better than CON. Just a sad state of build possibility. So 3 points for 9% towards CON and defense, which still doesn't show up in the tooltip, very weak. It's been proven that CON does exactly what it should. I don't care, it's still weak. And our only saving grace come mod 10 will be being in a Guild level 20 for the HP boon. That and brutals.

On my GWF, which is my favorite secondary, you have a feat that feeds your defense into your power at a rate of 20%. Can we get something similar? A reason to stack something for the benefit of something more useful/needed.

I've said this for awhile now......fix what's broken first, then if the devs deem it necessary, make changes. So many skills, and you've named the big culprits, have too long casting times and don't do what they should. A wasted daily is a bummer.

Too many feats only work for one skill. Usually a singular skill that no one uses. Flourish? No one uses that. Staggering challenge? No one uses Griffins Wrath. And Knight's Challenge is hardly ever used except under super special circumstances.

Cruel cut style...... I'm never using cleave. I tried it with weapon artifact feature this last update when I went back to IV Protector. That lasted a whole week this time lol. Still too weak compared to WMS. Needs a complete readjustment. The animation is goofy regardless. No one in real combat ever turned their back on their enemy. The Spartans incorporated their shield as an offensive tool in warfare. I'd like to see a new more powerful cleave animation where the shield comes right behind the sword for fast strikes with a good cone/range of damage. Tide of iron isn't enough. And threatening rush should do AOE damage just like it does for the Pally. Until that happens I'm sticking with crushing surge and WMS. Stabbing over your shield is better than cleave. I hate cleave. My 2 cents.

theguiido · September 2016

The feedback here is great from both a GWF stand point and a GF standpoint.

Plain and simple, our class needs a huge update.

I would love to get the word out to fix these disparities and problems with the feats so we are able to have a goal of a build. Like @boromir said, stacking defense to increase power. Something to go with something is something the GWF has, and every other class has incorporated in their feats, but oddly not in the Conquerer tree, or in the Protector tree, or really in any tree.

I would love to see a purpose to be stacking something and getting another huge benefit of another stat for that tree. We used to have this ability with stacking defense for more damage with ITF, but ever since then what are you gunna do, stack DR and go down mediocre buff lane of Tactician? That is your only way of benefiting from anything is Tactician, even though in MOD 10, that path is dead.

Another huge issue like I have mentioned is just the feats in general like some of you have recognized, some feats in their that truly make no sense. Some I am surprised are even on the class. I will not re say what I have said, but we have 16 FEATS linked with our powers and that must change to see any diversity in this class. More appealing feats, more diversity between GF's in specs and builds. I really truly love how only the GF above every class deals with this problem. I know GWF's have a similar issue, but no where as bad as GF feat wise. I would love to see a more DPS approach in the Conquerer Tree, a more Defensive and Ally aid for Protector, and a huge Support buff rework for tactician, OP blows us out of the water with all 3 feat paths, even heroic too as they are able to increase the benefits of Ability Scores by percentages.

lastly, CON is a huge issue. As stated by the fabricant above, it is working as intended, however if you are looking to stack HP, you are much better off running the HP boon and getting HP from boons, and leaving CON alone. We aren't updated anyway shape or form or on par with Paladins to where stacking something has a purpose for us. the only true benefit of having CON is AP gain, but in all reality, you can probably get a better alternative with 5/5 action surge, DC sigil, and intermediate Recovery. MOD 10 changed the way our class will be played for the future, and I don't have a problem with that. GF's are prone to change to anything and prepare for anything, thats not my problem. My problem is, if you're going to nerf us, nerf us, but fix what needs to be fixed and don't nerf things like Villains Menace, and buff things like Indomitable Strength, and Crescendo that didn't even work in the first place. Look at what the GF NEEDS compared to the OP and really look at the problem. The answer is plain and simple, GF's along with GWF's need a huge update in feats (both Heroic, and Paragon), powers, and additional mechanics to the GF class, because unlike what most "people" want to think, GF has no mechanic. We only have a "Tactical" that is our 'Guard'. Which even our shield is bugged and that was not even addressed yet.

All I can say for now is much work is needed to be done for GF's to compete with OP's now after the nerf, hopefully the developers see this, and realize hey look its, not just Proteus who clearly see's the problems with linking GF powers to feats. (Encounters, At-wills, Class Features, Dailys,) even to go as far as to mess with our Combat Challenge Mark in our feats, and oh hey look feats like Cruel Cut Style and the 15 OTHER USELESS ONES that don't need to be their need to be removed and replaced with new ones. @bbascomdev @terramak @panderus @strumslinger

flyersfan314 · September 2016

So if GF becomming obsolete in 10? If so when would it be fixed? Would we have to wait until 11 or do they fix classes with patches?

zachcampbell85 · September 2016

imgur.com/dv8N1hr

This is what I used to have, but is now completely obsolete. Invincible, 100% CC immune, massive buffs, all gone now, RIP GF.

zachcampbell85 · September 2016

This is what I used to have. Invincible, 100% CC immune, massive buffs, RIP GF.

http://imgur.com/dv8N1hr

theguiido · September 2016

flyersfan314#7217 said:
So if GF becomming obsolete in 10? If so when would it be fixed? Would we have to wait until 11 or do they fix classes with patches?

They fix classes with each module, our fix will most likely not come in a very long time. I am assuming with GWF's when they rework them, or after that.

Truly I have no idea, just a wild guess simply because it will take modules for them to balance all these classes. amenar a Developer for Cryptic that has left, stated that they will be leaving each module to a single class rework instead of what they did how they didn't truly focus on each class (GF,HR,SW,OP,DC) all of which had some major changes, some feat and path changes, some had major changes and got massive buffs like the HR, some were nerfed badly like the GF, and DC, but all of the classes I have mentioned were not focused on as much as they have planned for. The changes that were made to the already existing classes were temporary solutions to ever growing problems with the class, leaving it in a coma and band aid solution like I have stated in posts a long time ago.

Now like I have said above, each module is a different change to a class, wether that means it will literally take another 8 modules for us too see something? I hope not. I don't think I can wait another 2 years for the GF to finally have a good feat balance like other classes. That is absurdly long, and while I think they have much more important things to work on, Class Balance and Class Feedback should be at the top of their list as without classes people enjoy, you don't have much fun on the game.

It is already 100% confirmed they are working on other class balances, but I truly have no idea how long it will be for us to see changes for the GF. I expect DC, TR, and either the CW to be the next class rework, and GF will be much later most likely because they have temporarily worked on us and are collecting data for later on.

lantern22 · September 2016

Are you guys for real?

Future of the GF is fine, I haven't noticed anyone excluding GF's from PVE.

Admittedly since the Mod10, I've swapped over to Greater Bonding Stones (from Augment with Rank 9s) and also Respecc'd to a slightly more DPS build (i.e. added some Crit) but I have only noticed a small drop off in DPS for solo and I'm not having any trouble tanking CN.

Not sure about how I will go for FBI, I guess I will find out when I finally get it unlocked and get the EF Res that I need to enter.

How someone can go from "invincible" to "RIP GF" is hard to understand, because they have nerfed Steel Defence??? If the GF was invincible then it needed balancing.

There is too much "the world is going to end" in this thread, its unwarranted and it gives new players false impressions about what it is like to play a GF. Fair enough we got a bit of a nerf, but they kept the class viable - yeah its boring playing solo but it is a Tank class and the nerf wasn't too bad.

Really, I think you probably should be hoping that they don't look too hard at the GF for a while, otherwise you're probably not going to like what happens.

As for useless feats and powers etc. - every class has plenty of those

The Future of the GF

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