Why nerf Steel Defence to only 3.5s? This has been broken for so long and now the "fix" is to make it worse? What good could possibly be done in 3.5s? 6 seconds gives enough time for a rotation, stamina recoop, and back behind your shield. First you kill paladins and now you will leave low geared guardian fighters in the wind. This game is more than just DPS, someone has to tank. They will force people to perma shield in fights then when everyone has converted, the next nerf will come around so they will make more money. When you are taking damage from your whole team from KV, lower gear scored players are now screwed. They will do what is needed to force people to buy Zen. Just another cash grab is all this is. It will stay until people have changed and then the next nerf will hit causing another complete switch in equipment and builds.
Feedback: Class Feature: Steel Defense The duration is not enough considering how long some animations take and how short a distance we can move if we need to haul HAMSTER in 3.5 secs. Either make it last as it did or change it so it gives 10-40% for a fixed 6 secs. See my suggestion below regarding the protector tree as to how this could be made more interesting.
Seems to me everyone agrees with the idea that the trees need a serious rework.
*Disclaimer: numbers given are just for illustration, as I have no knowledge of how the calculations actually work or would end up like in-game. Not sure if the suggested changes could even be effected. Just my view of how the trees should be, anyway.
Conq: Seems nice as-is (except for the few tweaks suggested here and there), considering that you remain able to tank (according to your basic stats/buffs) while benefitting from a DPS increase from the feats it gives. A tree used mostly for PVP and people who don't want to drag the solo content out or feel like their gear/boons allow them to tank well enough already.
-Powerful Strike should go here (from tact).
Protector: Supposed to be the tanking tree of this class, though it seems to offer very little in terms of feats that help us... protect others.
-Brawling Warrior gives 5% to KV, but that seems a little low. This is a nice idea for the purpose of this tree. It could instead heal us by some small amount while it's activated. Something of the sort, since, you know, this tree is meant to allow us to protect others a bit better. -The United feat should go here, imo (from tact). -Daunting Challenge, as well (from tact). -Staying Power should increase the effect of Steel Defense in some way (50-90%), as pointed up there. The WMS buff it gives could be slapped on the default bonus the at-will gains from ranking up.
Tactician: This one ought to focus on our ability to increase the party's damage, control ability, and AP gain. Quite simple.
-Overwhelming Impact should go here, as it increases the damage of others even if the Dailies it applies to aren't popular due to having been nerfed to HAMSTER and not being good in general (from prot). -Improved Vigor would go here, since it's self AP gain (from conq). -Balanced Shield Fighter should go here, but instead of increasing damage, should apply a short form of control that would proc Crushing Pin (from prot). -Grim Promise should reduce the target's DR. -Surging Tide could be changed to apply a debuff for the party like it used to do before it was changed.
Feedback: Class Feature: Steel Defense Reducing it to 3.5 seconds makes it really hard to do anything useful during its effect. I would prefer seeing a cooldown on this ability, maybe of 18 seconds, which would make it more in line with what I think the original use of the feature was intended to be.
ITF: you have nerfed it rightly so, please allow it to be used while moving
Still think it should have an activation similar to Knight's Valor where you activate it and it stays up until you deactivate it. It's not a powerful enough buff to justify having to continuously reactivate it.
You can't really compare the effect of the bubble to Steel Defense. The bubble is an activated daily, Steel Defense is an additional bonus you get for activating a daily if you have the feature slotted, on top of whatever the daily you activate already does.
Mostly, it seems like a way to address that AP generation is now much higher than when Steel Defense was first designed, which means that a significantly higher percentage of the time can be spent immune to damage than is healthy gameplay.
You can compare it to to encounters that allow an OP to be essentially invincible though. Bubble is a bad comparison because the problem was that it made your party invincible when their tank already was.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
With the publication of today's blog, I can only say that making Tide of Iron a personal instead of group debuff might well accomplish freeing players from having to slot it, but it's likely a move too much in the other direction. A support class lives and dies by what it has to offer to the party, and as such, if you strip too many of their buffs, they may struggle to find a place (not saying this will happen, as I think ITF is still very strong). It's an interesting suggestion to put a group debuff capability onto the Tactician feat Surging Tide; this is a feat I've never been able to find room for in my builds precisely because the debuff it offers only applies to the caster, severely limiting the usefulness. Without a group debuff on Tide, I will certainly try other rotations, but I think an Iron Vanguard is likely to settle on Crushing Surge and Threatening Rush, while a Swordmaster will likely choose Weapon Master and Crushing Surge (unless the new Cleave ends up really amazeballs).
At any rate, I don't think it's such a terrible thing for some classes to have an at-will that provides either so much utility or such greater damage than the others that it's practically required. GWFs and TRs are both currently modelled this way for damage, while the second at-will you slot can be more informed by build and playing style (yeah, there's a preferred optimal meta, but different styles can work without being totally horrible by comparison). OPs are almost invariably going to want Radiant Strike for utility, but their second at-will choice changes according to build. Other classes either rely less on at-wills overall and can choose what incorporates best into their playing style (CW and trapper-meta HR), or can choose their at-wills based on what utility currently serves them best (DC and SW).
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Feedback: Swordmaster Paragon Feats: Staying Power/Grim Promise With the decision to break the links between GWF and GF paragons, the positions of these two feats should be flipped to match the thematic paths they're placed into. Currently, the debuff is in the tanking path and the damage mitigation feat is in the buff/debuff path.
(GWF paragons need too much attention to make them viable before making any similar judgement calls about IV feats. Right now, they neither match nor mismatch, IMO.)
did you incorporate any feedback from this official feedback thread before today's blog post officially communicating the changes?
If he's compiling a list of updated notes to post as he did for the other classes, we'll probably know very soon. I'm certain he was holding off on commenting in this thread until the blog was published, so we should see some interaction shortly.
@amenar did you incorporate any feedback from this official feedback thread before today's blog post officially communicating the changes?
The blog was written before any of these changes went to the preview forum. It was intended to come out alongside the changes, but was delayed.
I have about... two dozen things I'm looking into based on the feedback from this thread, so thank you guys very much for what you've provided so far. I'm glad that, for the most part, the feedback has been constructive, and I hope it continues to be so.
The next build that will hit preview has already been pulled, and won't have any additional GF changes in it. The next next preview build should, and I'll let you know what they'll be when they're ready.
I notice when Guardian Fighters gain immunity the threat of the target is reset. Also, the debuff is removed after the immunity gain. This is not good.
A huge problem happens on the battle of the blue dragon in Dragonglight Stronghold Event. The debuff should not be removed in this case.
Feedback: Power: Weapon Master's Strike This change doesn't make any sense. One, the snapping to target is really clunky and awkward. Two, the double damage to primary target makes this seem like the best single-target At-Will, on top of being the best AOE At-Will. What exactly was the goal of this change? What was the point? It seems to have simultaneously made WMS the best At-Will, while also being more annoying to use. I may not even use Crushing Surge anymore if this change goes through. Just Cleave or Tide and WMS now.
I don't understand why you make the forum post when you are never gonna listen to us, clearly you don't care about the community or what we think, even with these very valid points. We want to help, truly, but seriously guys don't make a thread if your not going to listen and do something about it. It's just a waste!
There is a developer right above you in this same page saying that they did listen and based on the feedback from this thread they have over twenty new things they are now looking at.
Into the Fray: No longer increases damage by a percentage of your damage resistance. Now grants a flat +15% damage bonus, + 5% more per rank.
FEEDBACK: I get that this was necessary. The thing is that PvE GFs were stacking defense well past the cap in order to make it effective and now you've essentially made all that worthless. This is going to mean some pretty significant changes for builds. There needs to be something to make that investment still worthwhile (no matter what paragon tree you choose) or you're going to see a lot of GFs quit or park their toons.
I'm already parking mine they have basically destroyed the gf class....and its not the first time they have done it...I'm really wishing I can ask for a refund of all the money I have spent since just the 50% off deal they has...it went into my gf that now I don't know what I can do with...I still hit like a wet noodle, have a monster crit cap, cant keep agro for nothing, took all the good buffs away....what good is a gf looks like back to begging for dungeons like in mod 5-6
I would like to see them add some defense buffs to some of are encounters. Being we are a tank after all. Or you can just wait for the longer fights to see that we cant tank any more. Was okay when a fight was a minute or less lol.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I would like to see them add some defense buffs to some of are encounters. Being we are a tank after all. Or you can just wait for the longer fights to see that we cant tank any more. Was okay when a fight was a minute or less lol.
Wish they're change iron warrior to be more useful. Linebreaker assault is still lackluster. 10% DR.
With the lunging CD increase it now sucks as a gap closer and survival buff.
I’ve tested the GF changes on the preview server and was very pleased with them, even though the ITF nerf. Great job!
At the same time, I think it possible to make some changes of the two skills and related feats in respective paths.
Feedback: Power: Knight's Challenge. Decrease effect down to 50% from 100%. Feat: Staggering Challenge (Conqueror path). Increase the effect related to the Knight’s Challenge from 2/4/6/8/10% up to +10/20/30/40/50%. Thus, only by a path of the conqueror and learned Staggering Challenge feat GF can get the maximum bonus from the Knight’s Challenge.
Power: Knight's Valor. Reduce damage absorption effect to 25% down from 50% and decrease bonus per skill level down to 5%. Feat: Brawling Warrior (Protector path). Change effect related to the Knight's Valor from current to + 5/10/15/20/25% damage absorption. In addition, 5 feat level should double the bonus for each level of Knight's Valor skills.
IMHO these changes will give each branch tangible bonuses and help to diversify GF builds. Thank you for attention.
I’ve tested the GF changes on the preview server and was very pleased with them, even though the ITF nerf. Great job!
At the same time, I think it possible to make some changes of the two skills and related feats in respective paths.
Feedback: Power: Knight's Challenge. Decrease effect down to 50% from 100%. Feat: Staggering Challenge (Conqueror path). Increase the effect related to the Knight’s Challenge from 2/4/6/8/10% up to +10/20/30/40/50%. Thus, only by a path of the conqueror and learned Staggering Challenge feat GF can get the maximum bonus from the Knight’s Challenge.
Power: Knight's Valor. Reduce damage absorption effect to 25% down from 50% and decrease bonus per skill level down to 5%. Feat: Brawling Warrior (Protector path). Change effect related to the Knight's Valor from current to + 5/10/15/20/25% damage absorption. In addition, 5 feat level should double the bonus for each level of Knight's Valor skills.
IMHO these changes will give each branch tangible bonuses and help to diversify GF builds. Thank you for attention.
Sounds good. It will give GF value in different roles in different builds.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
The Burst of GF is Still same as live, so change the prones to Stun at least, (Bull charge etc.) if you want to let them stomping people.
Like everyone else said on this thread and Mods said to people on other threads, stop requesting and crying nerf's on the GF they are not looking for what needs to be nerfed. They are looking for bugs and very concise feedback that affects the class. The burst damage of the GF will remain the same for obvious reasons of the Conquerer path.
Bring back Takedown.
Feedback: Bull charge should stun players like every single prone encounter.
I’ve tested the GF changes on the preview server and was very pleased with them, even though the ITF nerf. Great job!
At the same time, I think it possible to make some changes of the two skills and related feats in respective paths.
Feedback: Power: Knight's Challenge. Decrease effect down to 50% from 100%. Feat: Staggering Challenge (Conqueror path). Increase the effect related to the Knight’s Challenge from 2/4/6/8/10% up to +10/20/30/40/50%. Thus, only by a path of the conqueror and learned Staggering Challenge feat GF can get the maximum bonus from the Knight’s Challenge.
Power: Knight's Valor. Reduce damage absorption effect to 25% down from 50% and decrease bonus per skill level down to 5%. Feat: Brawling Warrior (Protector path). Change effect related to the Knight's Valor from current to + 5/10/15/20/25% damage absorption. In addition, 5 feat level should double the bonus for each level of Knight's Valor skills.
IMHO these changes will give each branch tangible bonuses and help to diversify GF builds. Thank you for attention.
But then Feat: Inspiring Leader must be changed to 5/10/15/20/25% bonus damage.
This is a very bad proposal for all GF in general.
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forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
Feedback: Nice changes but Knight's Challenge needs to be looked at too. We have tested on PTR and GF with KC is still able to consistently one shot a fully geared GWF with just one daily "Indomitable Strength". (GWF is with full tenacity gear lionsmere+2 rosegold ring, 200k HP, 8.8K defense) It usually takes 80-100% of the above geared GWF which means it will pretty much one shot kill 99% other GWFs, with just one daily... doesnt even need anvil to finish up....
YES finish off gf. Knight challenge need hands to play it. FOR example if he cast knight challenge on you enemies still can control him. IN THAT case you will kill gf 1 rotation x2 damage. PLUS the casting time is awful!
I'm trying to make sense of mamalion's comment here, but i'm not sure if it's against or for KC, but speaking as a GF, I don't mind the long cast time on KC, it helps balance it out, since it tells my opponents (the few times i bother using KC), that they are going to need help from their friends, or start dodging.
As for the coment about one-shotting BiS GWF's, I'm going to call this one a lie. The 8% damage increase can't possibly make it that much more powerfull than on live, and I am yet to one shot anything but PvE geared anything with KC and IS combo. However, if you did in fact one shot, or get one shot this way, I am going to assume that you were testing in IWD, with comp bonuses and such. If so, then this data can hardly be worth using to diminish the GF's damage capabilities in dom/gg even further. Present evidence of doing this in dom/gg, and I will gladly eat those words.
But then Feat: Inspiring Leader must be changed to 5/10/15/20/25% bonus damage.
No. Tactician path already have good benefits. Such change of Inspiring Leader will kill another paths for GF. Buffbots will continue to press one button sluggishly.
Comments
The duration is not enough considering how long some animations take and how short a distance we can move if we need to haul HAMSTER in 3.5 secs. Either make it last as it did or change it so it gives 10-40% for a fixed 6 secs. See my suggestion below regarding the protector tree as to how this could be made more interesting.
Seems to me everyone agrees with the idea that the trees need a serious rework.
*Disclaimer: numbers given are just for illustration, as I have no knowledge of how the calculations actually work or would end up like in-game. Not sure if the suggested changes could even be effected. Just my view of how the trees should be, anyway.
Conq:
Seems nice as-is (except for the few tweaks suggested here and there), considering that you remain able to tank (according to your basic stats/buffs) while benefitting from a DPS increase from the feats it gives. A tree used mostly for PVP and people who don't want to drag the solo content out or feel like their gear/boons allow them to tank well enough already.
-Powerful Strike should go here (from tact).
Protector:
Supposed to be the tanking tree of this class, though it seems to offer very little in terms of feats that help us... protect others.
-Brawling Warrior gives 5% to KV, but that seems a little low. This is a nice idea for the purpose of this tree. It could instead heal us by some small amount while it's activated. Something of the sort, since, you know, this tree is meant to allow us to protect others a bit better.
-The United feat should go here, imo (from tact).
-Daunting Challenge, as well (from tact).
-Staying Power should increase the effect of Steel Defense in some way (50-90%), as pointed up there. The WMS buff it gives could be slapped on the default bonus the at-will gains from ranking up.
Tactician:
This one ought to focus on our ability to increase the party's damage, control ability, and AP gain. Quite simple.
-Overwhelming Impact should go here, as it increases the damage of others even if the Dailies it applies to aren't popular due to having been nerfed to HAMSTER and not being good in general (from prot).
-Improved Vigor would go here, since it's self AP gain (from conq).
-Balanced Shield Fighter should go here, but instead of increasing damage, should apply a short form of control that would proc Crushing Pin (from prot).
-Grim Promise should reduce the target's DR.
-Surging Tide could be changed to apply a debuff for the party like it used to do before it was changed.
Reducing it to 3.5 seconds makes it really hard to do anything useful during its effect. I would prefer seeing a cooldown on this ability, maybe of 18 seconds, which would make it more in line with what I think the original use of the feature was intended to be.
At any rate, I don't think it's such a terrible thing for some classes to have an at-will that provides either so much utility or such greater damage than the others that it's practically required. GWFs and TRs are both currently modelled this way for damage, while the second at-will you slot can be more informed by build and playing style (yeah, there's a preferred optimal meta, but different styles can work without being totally horrible by comparison). OPs are almost invariably going to want Radiant Strike for utility, but their second at-will choice changes according to build. Other classes either rely less on at-wills overall and can choose what incorporates best into their playing style (CW and trapper-meta HR), or can choose their at-wills based on what utility currently serves them best (DC and SW).
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
With the decision to break the links between GWF and GF paragons, the positions of these two feats should be flipped to match the thematic paths they're placed into. Currently, the debuff is in the tanking path and the damage mitigation feat is in the buff/debuff path.
(GWF paragons need too much attention to make them viable before making any similar judgement calls about IV feats. Right now, they neither match nor mismatch, IMO.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I have about... two dozen things I'm looking into based on the feedback from this thread, so thank you guys very much for what you've provided so far. I'm glad that, for the most part, the feedback has been constructive, and I hope it continues to be so.
The next build that will hit preview has already been pulled, and won't have any additional GF changes in it. The next next preview build should, and I'll let you know what they'll be when they're ready.
Feedback: Class Feature: Steel Defense
I notice when Guardian Fighters gain immunity the threat of the target is reset. Also, the debuff is removed after the immunity gain. This is not good.
A huge problem happens on the battle of the blue dragon in Dragonglight Stronghold Event. The debuff should not be removed in this case.
This change doesn't make any sense. One, the snapping to target is really clunky and awkward. Two, the double damage to primary target makes this seem like the best single-target At-Will, on top of being the best AOE At-Will. What exactly was the goal of this change? What was the point? It seems to have simultaneously made WMS the best At-Will, while also being more annoying to use. I may not even use Crushing Surge anymore if this change goes through. Just Cleave or Tide and WMS now.
With the lunging CD increase it now sucks as a gap closer and survival buff.
I’ve tested the GF changes on the preview server and was very pleased with them, even though the ITF nerf. Great job!
At the same time, I think it possible to make some changes of the two skills and related feats in respective paths.
Feedback:
IMHO these changes will give each branch tangible bonuses and help to diversify GF builds.Power: Knight's Challenge. Decrease effect down to 50% from 100%.
Feat: Staggering Challenge (Conqueror path). Increase the effect related to the Knight’s Challenge from 2/4/6/8/10% up to +10/20/30/40/50%.
Thus, only by a path of the conqueror and learned Staggering Challenge feat GF can get the maximum bonus from the Knight’s Challenge.
Power: Knight's Valor. Reduce damage absorption effect to 25% down from 50% and decrease bonus per skill level down to 5%.
Feat: Brawling Warrior (Protector path). Change effect related to the Knight's Valor from current to + 5/10/15/20/25% damage absorption. In addition, 5 feat level should double the bonus for each level of Knight's Valor skills.
Thank you for attention.
It will give GF value in different roles in different builds.
Feedback:
Bull charge should stun players like every single prone encounter.
Frontline Surge stuns instead of knocking prone.
Fair.
Dead🔪This is a very bad proposal for all GF in general.
As for the coment about one-shotting BiS GWF's, I'm going to call this one a lie. The 8% damage increase can't possibly make it that much more powerfull than on live, and I am yet to one shot anything but PvE geared anything with KC and IS combo.
However, if you did in fact one shot, or get one shot this way, I am going to assume that you were testing in IWD, with comp bonuses and such. If so, then this data can hardly be worth using to diminish the GF's damage capabilities in dom/gg even further.
Present evidence of doing this in dom/gg, and I will gladly eat those words.