The fundamental flaw in Neverwinter's economy. [Why Bots rule the game]

torontodave · June 2016

The fundamental flaw in Neverwinter's economy is invoking.

With 4 hours of PLAY:
Players can make 32k AD a day by running dungeons/salvaging items/doing weekly tasks
It takes approx 3-4 hours to run enough dungeons to salvage items to reach the refining cap.
Players can also pray 5? times in those 4 hours, to get 2500 RAD, and
3 resonant bags from leadership
3 thaumaturgic bags from leadership
1 celestial coin

4 hours of legit play(per day) gets you 34,500 AD, 3 resonant bags, 3 thaum bags, 1 celestial coin.

With 8 hours of Invoke/Leadership Botting:
Bots can make 3k AD a day by invoking
6 Resonant bags from leadership [doing the task twice]
6 Thaumaturgic bags from leadership [doing the task twice]
2 celestial coins [reaching full invokes]

With 50 bots cycling logins over 8 hours, you get 150,000 AD, 300 Resonant bags, 300 Thaumaturgic bags, 100 celestial coins.

After one week, the player will have 241,500 and be burnt out from playing the same dungeons 4 hours a day for 7 days. The player will have 21 reso/thaum bags, and 7 celestial coins.

After one week, the botter will have 1,050,000 AD, 2,100 Resonant bags.(6x7x50) 2,100 Thaum bags, and 700 celestial coins. (2x7x50)

The economy will continue to widen between botters and players.
Botters will set the prices on the AH, and botters will be the only ones able to buy anything.

Inflation will never stop.

Who wants to bother PLAYING a game that the bots already have won?

Create a system that a bot can play, and only a bot will play it.

You need to remove AD from invoking to fix the economy.

You need to make PLAYING profitable again to get me back to this game. A bot shouldn't be able to out-earn a player by 4:1. =P

@strumslinger @badbotlimit @yetweallfalldown @rgutscheradev @terramak @panderus @bbascomdev @dextructoid

@badbotlimit @badbotlimit @badbotlimit @badbotlimit

LIMIT THE BAD BOTS$*@#!$#@!289$#@!~ =P

ghoulz66 · June 2016

Ummm what? Are you calling me a bot? With 31 characters I can't afford squat still.

flyingleon · June 2016

I am not sure bots will go invoking path to earn ADs, you need more than one month to get the cost of character slot back.

namelesshero347 · June 2016

Allowing 50 toons on one account was the original sin. The worst design decision ever. Nobody can play 50 toons. Whoever green-lighted that saw only dollar signs from selling account slots.

I agree, get rid of invoke AD. Add more AD to running content. Bots can still make AD selling RP. At least this benefits players.

torontodave · June 2016

flyingleon said:
I am not sure bots will go invoking path to earn ADs, you need more than one month to get the cost of character slot back.

In one month, 50 bots make 4 million AD. A char slot is 200? zen? 150 on sale? .. 150x500 = 75,000 ad x 50 = 3.7mil.

50 Bots pay for themselves in under a month.

kvet · June 2016

Well. botters don't put 50 bots in one account, but they definitely put 100 bots across 50 accounts. Actually... unlimited bots across unlimited accounts whereas a legit player will have typically have (very liberally) 10 characters on average (on one or more accounts). Some of us have way more, some less, but 10 feels like a good average. No very many legit players actually gind with more than a few characters though, it takes way too long, so the 1 toon for legit character per day feels pretty accurate to me, maybe not always the same toon, but still fairly accurate. What you failed on is the scope of the bot problem, as I said, it's not 50 per one account - they don't bother buying slots, they just generate hundreds of accounts and create two toons on each, but them up to invoke level and leave them until they're banned. Wash-rinse-repeat 10K times a week.

silverkelt · June 2016

All I know is that every anti bot move, has done nothing but made the game worse for legit players.

So give us your suggestions, because all I see is a statement.

BOTTERs will always beat players.. in every game.. like ever.

Removal of bots, though, has made the game worse for most players, not better. Because the GAME itself is designed around botting.

THE FUNDAMENTAL flaw is that you need bots to play the game.. your entire philosphy is way off, removal of invoking AD, just removes AD from legit players (again)

Bots just move on to next source of income.

How about reduction of COST to a point that legit players playing 20 hours a week can progress faster, via ACTUAL game play.. you know .. GRANTING real RP for drops in dungeons, which Ive asked and asked and asked for.

The best we have is CN and random 6k RP drops.

THE real issue is that you need as much RP as we do, forcing players to turn to bots for it.

SPUTTTERRRRRSSS MUTTERS many things.

deathbeez · June 2016

silverkelt said:
All I know is that every anti bot move, has done nothing but made the game worse for legit players.

I agree.

torontodave · June 2016

Do you REALLY need the 3k you get per day from invoking? No? Then why let bots reap it? =X

Unknown · June 2016

This content has been removed.

torontodave · June 2016

I'm saying that bots out-earn players 4:1 at minimum and that has to end.

I play 20 mins a day and get 200ad from first invoke.

No point for me to play when all someone has to do is code a bot to login and pray and out-earns me 4:1 no matter what I do.

silverkelt · June 2016

I earn about 40k per day from invoking, so yes I need it. Its part of my AD equation, I would just have to run 12 dungeons to earn that much from salvage.

Its 20-30% of my daily income you want to strip away.

silverkelt · June 2016

oh and yes.. I wouldnt run the 12 more dungeons, I would just throw my hands up and say screw it. This game is getting way way WAY over the top in terms of time walls.

silverkelt · June 2016

torontodave said:
I'm saying that bots out-earn players 4:1 at minimum and that has to end.

I play 20 mins a day and get 200ad from first invoke.

No point for me to play when all someone has to do is code a bot to login and pray and out-earns me 4:1 no matter what I do.

They will always out earn you, that is my point, IF the only way to get AD was to run 100 bots through a non epic dungeon, they will do it, it snot like you need HAMSTER, doesnt even matter if they die 50 times.

THey earn all day, over multiple accounts ALL the time, we cant do that.

The only way to STOP bots , is to make a system that requires no bots and reduces cost by like 50-75%. Your suggestion, only REMOVES one aspect of AD for players, but still makes Bots win.

eolee · June 2016

bots dont open up slots, bots use the 2 char slots and move on to another account, i dont get what you're complaining about. Oh i see, you're calling bots real players that bought legit slots and invoke on their toons. Gotcha.

flyingleon · June 2016

There is a simple way to anti bots. Don't buy their ADs. And guess what?

sockmunkey · June 2016

Have we learned nothing? Killing leadership didnt fix things and hurt players. Changing how invoking worked didnt fix things and hurt players. Why then do you think more of the same version of take, take, take, from the players is going to produce different results?

Hurting bots ability to produce, and subsequently doing so to players as well. Is never the answer. You stop bots by preventing them from delivering goods or by making legit means of gaining more attractive.

wildfirede · June 2016

""oh and yes.. I wouldnt run the 12 more dungeons, I would just throw my hands up and say **** it. This game is getting way way WAY over the top in terms of time walls. ""

can't quote from mobile but this, if i was not getting my ad and eventual ward from invoking i am joining you... + bots do not hope to get money from that, as they have a bhrn factor e.g. the shortest and undetectable path till they produce ad is used currently the stronghold farm is the top bot location.

to the op - what if i told you you can make more than one char

taitinhakkaaja · June 2016

4 hours of dungeon grind to get 30k ad? Seriously you can run 5 elol easily in 1 hour and that should be more than enough to get 30k ad and you should get horn more than once a month by that amount of grind.

Dragon runs take like 10 mins and often in zerg groups we do more than 1 instance, so plenty of RP from 10 mins grind.

So only issue is not how long you play it's what content you play. We can earn good amount of ad in short amount of time used.
Another thing is playing AH, buy cheap sell for profit... Easiest AD ever.

swoods74 · June 2016

If you are only playing 30 minutes a day why would you think you should be able to keep up with those of us investing way more time who are not bots?

silverkelt · June 2016

eolee said:
bots dont open up slots, bots use the 2 char slots and move on to another account, i dont get what you're complaining about. Oh i see, you're calling bots real players that bought legit slots and invoke on their toons. Gotcha.

I had the same feeling.

taitinhakkaaja said:
4 hours of dungeon grind to get 30k ad? Seriously you can run 5 elol easily in 1 hour and that should be more than enough to get 30k ad and you should get horn more than once a month by that amount of grind.

Dragon runs take like 10 mins and often in zerg groups we do more than 1 instance, so plenty of RP from 10 mins grind.

So only issue is not how long you play it's what content you play. We can earn good amount of ad in short amount of time used.
Another thing is playing AH, buy cheap sell for profit... Easiest AD ever.

No .. and here is the reason why, I HAVE already probably run 5 toons through ten dungeons, ANY more then that you keep loosing AD.

ALL this does is remove AD from my coffers, nothing else.

You are asking me to RUN another 10-12 dungeons on top of the 10-12 I already have run.

to replace this missing AD. ITs stupid .

silverkelt · June 2016

OH... BY the way, you all IGNORE the fact that prices were falling on high end enchants, UNTIL they removed cwards and pwards and then REMOVED botted rp from nodes.

Instead of asking for another item to be removed, ask for those two items back, that will help our economy more then your request would.

hawkeyel · June 2016

silverkelt said:
OH... BY the way, you all IGNORE the fact that prices were falling on high end enchants, UNTIL they removed cwards and pwards and then REMOVED botted rp from nodes.

Instead of asking for another item to be removed, ask for those two items back, that will help our economy more then your request would.

+1

plasticbat · June 2016

torontodave said:
I'm saying that bots out-earn players 4:1 at minimum and that has to end.

I play 20 mins a day and get 200ad from first invoke.

No point for me to play when all someone has to do is code a bot to login and pray and out-earns me 4:1 no matter what I do.

Your life style limits you to 20 minutes a day in one duration. My life style allows me to play (say) 10 minutes per duration for 6 different duration. Obviously, I will out earn you. I do that myself personally. Yes, you can say I "code" myself (a human) to do a bot's job.

peonlicious · June 2016

silverkelt said:
OH... BY the way, you all IGNORE the fact that prices were falling on high end enchants, UNTIL they removed cwards and pwards and then REMOVED botted rp from nodes.

Instead of asking for another item to be removed, ask for those two items back, that will help our economy more then your request would.

Bring an guy for this oscar.

torontodave · June 2016

I'm not asking for less AD for the players.

Even if "my lifestyle" allowed for 8 hours of play, I can only make 32k per character.

If I could have coal and pres wards returned to the tarmalune store I would.

I'm just saying, that a player, should be able to out earn a bot. Increase rewards for players by 4.

Example - If Sharandar, Dread Ring, Tyranny, Maze Engine, etc are all at 100%, have an 'Endgame' daily key quest that changes every day. There are loads of lairs from the campaign to choose from, or even select 365 of the best foundry missions, and have a new one every day. Have it reward what the botters make.

Devalue the effort that goes into all these people invoking on 50 chars, make it more fun to play the game. (even on alts, getting all alts to 100%) Otherwise its just an invoke simulation. =X

silence1x · June 2016

peonlicious said:

silverkelt said:
OH... BY the way, you all IGNORE the fact that prices were falling on high end enchants, UNTIL they removed cwards and pwards and then REMOVED botted rp from nodes.

Instead of asking for another item to be removed, ask for those two items back, that will help our economy more then your request would.
Bring an guy for this oscar.

+1 to silverkelt's post

AND

+1 to peonlicious for channeling Kolat with that gif

sm0ld3r · June 2016

silverkelt said:
All I know is that every anti bot move, has done nothing but made the game worse for legit players.

This.

To the OP of this thread:
Stop proposing nonsense that will cause all the remaining players to quit.

There is also another way of looking at Leadership and invoking. It's there to keep the existing players coming back. If you get rid of leadership and invoking then people won't feel obligated to log in every day and you know what happens after someone doesn't log in for a week or 2? That's right, they forget all about the game and never come back.

So, my advice, stop looking through a microscope and proposing solutions that will have far worse implications than the problems you think exist.

If you go back to Mod1/2 folks could actually farm CN for stuff that was actually sellable on the AH. I knew plenty of folks that were able to earn enough for full rank 10s (that's as high as they went back then) all from farming CN. Today, good luck farming anything. I haven't seen an Orcus wand in over 2000 CN runs.

Simply put they don't want you to earn any AD playing the game.

silverkelt · June 2016

with thousands and thousands of runs in cn, pom, throne, edemo and nemo, Ive yet to GET 1 +5 ring I could use on ANY toon really.

ITS not that Im not running dungeons, there just is barely any reason to run them.

polaris1986 · June 2016

Ok, but I can play by 4 characters during 4 hours and have 136 000 ad for 1 playing day. And its legal.

maybe they should delete second celestial coin.
make new prices for added characters.

200 zen for first 2
400 zen for next 2
600 zen for next 2
1000 zen for 10 chars
2000 zen for 20 chars
6000 zen for 30 chars
12 000 zen for 50 chars. my idea (c)

wylonus · June 2016

from those invokings, it really need upgrade and update, those coffers are so outdated, they were good enough for 60 level characters, and now we have 70 level characters and these are too low to be good enough, since AD nerfed and loss of profession ADs.
devs still ignore and still pulling those that are most needed. i have old posts buried under pages of old topics and some were archived about needing those coffer updates. we want those C-ward back in invokings as character bounded and unsellable to auction house. i havent seen any c-ward in over 10 months since last one from coffers.
they are just becoming greedy as those bot farmers. i refuse for that price on zen market. it's still too high.

The fundamental flaw in Neverwinter's economy. [Why Bots rule the game]

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