From what I understand 99% running leadership are not bots. They are real players that are struggling with a flawed system design. You need tons of RP and AD to get anywhere in this game and to keep it fun. If you cant buy new shiny items in the game like mounts, companions, fashion, enchantments etc the game is no fun. So if they remove the pathetic income a player has or remove the bots, this game will die within a few months.
Like someone mentioned before. The whole game is designed around bots putting RP on AH to sell. But the RP from real bots is not coming from leadership, its coming from skill nodes mostly. Or it did. Stack of rank 5s went from 4k to 30k from the last change a few weeks back. Who did this punish the most? The players because now they have to spend more AD.
There will always be bots in a game like this. They will always move on to the next thing that gives RP/AD or whatever. A few years back when you could make a profit playing the game like running CN for ancient weapons and sell and before they introduced RP to the game, we didn't need bots to afford stuff. But today its much harder.
The ways that we (the players) can farm enough RP or AD is extremely limited and you would have to grind to the death and still not come close to what you want. Nobody in their right mind will repeat the same quests or kill the same mobs over and over and over again for weeks, months and years. Thats why Im extremely happy for the bots. The way Cryptic wants us to play is not a way many players would stick around for.
Edit: They need to go back to the early system with BoE items that is worth farming and selling in AH and once that system is in place, THEN they can work on limiting the bots. But having random drops in CN were only 0.1% of the players actually gets it is insane. I did over 100 CN runs and over 100 Edemo and no artifact/legendary rings. I know many others that did WAY more than that with the same results. Its a really idiotic game design.
Let me ask you, would you rather run CN 500 times and MAYBE get 1 artifact drop worth 1m AD or would you run a few leadership chars that gives you some RP everyday not based on any crazy RNG?
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Since original leadership nerf, I was the thorn in cryptic side over costing, I think if I left they wouldve been happy, this proposal would do nothing for legit players.. nothing.
DO you think invoking is the reason you cant buy zax? its because there is no real reason to sell it. There is your problem.
Ill probably purchase some zen during the double event, buy vip and bags.. BUT there is zero incentive for me to sell zen, Ive never sold zen on purpose (once sold it on accident when I meant to move it, because I forget to lower the price on the listing.)
I will never sell zen.. WHY, BECAUSE there is zero reason to sell it. I cant scream about it loud enough. THE return of selling zen IS bad, horribad.
What they should do is reward players for selling zen so free players can play, say you get the 500 to 1 ratio, but you get like store credit of like 15% of your zen post, so that way you can GET AD, build up credit you can use yourself or something of that nature.
Right now its just too hampered, you clearly dont get enough AD back for selling zen, its always been the case.
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
I just want the rewards for playing players to be superior, or at least equitable, to the rewards received from AFK progression.
At my "casual" playtime of 3 hours a day of NW, I can never catch up to someone who is AFK praying all the time.
Players should be rewarded 5x what afk'ers can earn, just by being active - doing daily/weekly content, doing challenging content that BOTS CANT DO. =D
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
This is all probably a moot point. They are obviously and slowly phasing out the PC for the XB1 and PS4 consoles, which don't have the Foundry and is not that easy to bot. IF they keep the PC model up and running, it will only be used and abused for beta testing console ideas. If you wish to see the future of Neverwinter for the PC, just visit the Cryptic game Champions Online, still running with fewer than 500 players a day. The game is neglected and ignored.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,404Arc User
I just want the rewards for playing players to be superior, or at least equitable, to the rewards received from AFK progression.
At my "casual" playtime of 3 hours a day of NW, I can never catch up to someone who is AFK praying all the time.
Players should be rewarded 5x what afk'ers can earn, just by being active - doing daily/weekly content, doing challenging content that BOTS CANT DO. =D
For those who has 50 toons and praying are not really AFK. Each round takes them at least 15 minutes to finish them all. For the first 2 rounds, it becomes one round because after the 50th finish, he/she needs to go back to the first to pray again. Think about how much life is sucked out to do that. One probably needs to spend 2 hours just for praying. Then, inventory management, exchange coin for chest, ... That is hardly AFK. Then, you put profession in the mix. That is a job.
Can I copy that? No, I don't have their kind of time or strength.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Exactly. If one who is part time and tries to compete with one who is full time, the one who is full time should have an edge 99% of the time. Actually, I think it is more than full time. I think they spend more time than my working hours. I work 5 days per week and they work 7 days per week. If one has the will to endure the hard ship, I have no problem with their effort.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
my point is, there's a bot for that. you don't actually have to be praying. =P
if you've honestly wasted your life invoking just for AD I feel sorry for you.
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
my point is, there's a bot for that. you don't actually have to be praying. =P
if you've honestly wasted your life invoking just for AD I feel sorry for you.
There is a bot for that but that costs money and people I know does not use that. Getting a bot for 'commercial' use may "justify" the cost. For personal use, it is expensive especially that needs to 'upgrade' every time Cryptic does something.
I do not judge how others want to play the game when they are within the rule.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,404Arc User
How do any of you manage to play this content on more than 1-2 characters ? I would love to try more characters but I literally cannot justify it.
When my character reaches the point that can clear all the content with ease, I start to play a new one. Especially, because of "this content", there is a need to play a new one. Otherwise, it becomes very boring for me.
A 2.8k to 3k character can clear the current content. I don't have anything besides weapon enchantment which is higher than rank 9. About 80% of the equipped enhancement is rank 8. Personally, at this moment, I don't have the urge to get something better. I consider that as luxury. Also, that may also because the 3 characters (GWF, OP, TR) I actively play do not need higher. I can imagine SW, HR, CW may.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Cryptic/whomever gets the money has 1 job: Make the most money possible. If they make a few players mad while trying to combat 3rd party ad sales....they dont care. A high zen to AD rate will encourage players like yourself who play 30 minutes a day to consider sinking actual $ into the game. Putting coal wards/wards into zen market only ensured the zen exchange would steadily climb (since its a mandatory item for character growth). If bots only generated AD and refinement, they wouldnt care since that helps lead to zen inflation and lowered in game costs....both of which make spending real $ look better and better. However, many of these bots are selling on 3rd party sites, which takes money from thier pockets. So as you can see, every move is calculated only with the thought of stopping 3rd party sales
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
Exactly how much of that stuff mentioned was BoC or BoP?
I think I missed something here how a bot is somehow better than a player. For one thing players hold better conversations.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
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torontodaveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 992Arc User
None of the AD, nor the Thaum bags, nor the Resonant bags are bound.
NW-DSQ39N5SJ - 'To Infinity, and BEYOND!' - Spelljammer Quest. Skyships, Indiana Jones moments NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
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vaporwalkerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 19Arc User
edited June 2016
i dont really give a rats HAMSTER what anyone else makes, if they are a live player or a bot. I care about what i can make. atm refining costs (RP) and upgrade costs (AD) are far too steep to notice a small difference after months of gameplay. EVERY last change Cryptic has made to "curb the bot problem" has made it more difficult for me to improve my toons. frankly, bots made it easier for all of us, everything was so much cheaper. and thats kinda sad.
Edit: refining is probably the shittiest system I've dealt with in an mmo-rpg. it should be trashed and eliminated and have meaningful drops from dungeons.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I wouldn't mind the removal of AD from invoking or changing all unbound invoking rewards to BtA status. However, I would really like to see better rewards for actually playing the game....better unbound boss drops from dungeons in particular.
As things are I hardly run dungeons any more...the reward/effort ratio simply isn't hogh enough.
I would keep invoking AD as it is. AD gain from invoking ain't really that much and it help pvp players to get small amount of ad without need of normal pve content. Other thing invoking is playing the game, professions is playing the game so getting ad from those is what this game is meant to be -> reward playing the game.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,404Arc User
edited June 2016
For this game, the one who has more toons always has the edge over who does not. That includes playing the game to earn AD.
e.g. right now, whoever has more toon to play CTA will earn a lot more AD than those who does not. A naked level 70 character can play CTA. Each one can earn 5000 AD (more with VIP) in 2 runs during this period. 5000 AD * N toons is what one can earn per day in this period.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I would agree as far as it's impossible to become a dominant player in the economy and reach BiS without botting / exploiting. Probably even most of the current 'legit' big players build up their bank rolls in questionable ways.
I also think this game is botting friendly because of it's grind structure. You correctly mentioned invoking. I think the mechanic is fine as incentive to log in daily. I would restructure the rewards to be handed out for a certain amount of consecutive logins, scratch ADs and return to one invoke per day. The incremental invoking is something a bot can handle way better than a human and therefore is counter-productive. Another issue is that too many mechanics scale way too well with character slots.
I'm also a long-time supporter to build rewards around stuff that bots can't do, or can't do effectively. Let utility enchantments drop uncapped and BoE in epic dungeons off kill participation, add more ADs to every completion, increase salvage value of items and include Demogorgon and Tiamat. I'm sure there's plenty of ideas in that regard.
I would disagree though that the game can't be effectively played. The issues the OP describes is an issue of the top 5%. You can very much build up a character and bring it to 3k in reasonable time. The only valid number I know is 430ish hours from zero to 3k, which are about 145 gaming sessions of three hours. Given that you can run any content conveniently at that item level, it's OK.
That's PVE of course. PVP is another story and we definitely need a better way for new players to be more competitive in PVP way faster.
From what I understand 99% running leadership are not bots. They are real players that are struggling with a flawed system design.
What? Running the gateway might have received a major hit, but since it's the easiest way to bot, they will still do whatever nets the most ADs there.
Do you REALLY need the 3k you get per day from invoking? No? Then why let bots reap it? =X
Yes, I do. And the 2400 I get from Biggrin's, etc. I need all the AD I can get, esp for RP--which has skyrocketed. I also needed the ~10K/day I used to get from Leadership.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,404Arc User
i dont see a problem when it's about leadership or praying , i would even say that NW team needs to make a better system for it called Auto Pray and Auto Profession , basically accepting that as a feature of the game , Black Desert have that when it's about fishing and trading, so why couldn't Neverwinter have one similar for Auto Profession and Auto Prayin' , this would boost the sellings for character slots sale, it will decrease the amount of RP value and it will decrease the number of bots, if every player is allowed to do it, there won't be a point in using bots to do that, because RP can become obsolete with this change, and i am fine by it. But the issue of botting is around because of : 1. skill nodes and i am happy that they fixed it, thats where the problem begin with the complaints that the stacks of r5 ended up skyrocketing 2. releasing a enchantment that works like the old feyblessing and dragonhoard ench , called Quartermaster is another one that will promote towards botting . in reality how they could've fixed both of the issue is to fill the gap of RP that was left from the skill nodes fix, with a better mechanic of those enchantments also a better reward system in these dungeons, EX: dragonhoard enchantment, feyblessing, quarter master should drop equally for every class while they are doing a dungeon, or all of that can boost up the final loot from the chest, this way it cannot be botted since no bot is able to survive in those dungeons, and players can obtain good amount of REWARDS. The reason why its mechanic needs to be changed is that not every class is a DPS class that can kill an enemy and therefor get a DROP. So it needs a new way to work so that it can fill out other players.
like i said above , you equip 5 of them, they are goin to increase the % of the final chest by 10% = meaning that i will get more RP from the final chest. or i will get drops based on my damage/healing and tanking in the dungeon , thats another way to obtain RP.
these 2 ways is goin to promote playin the game and not AFKING.
1. There are already bots in the dungeon run. They don't need to survive the dungeon. Its PUG members need to finish it unless they give up and leave. They can't kick it unless there is no valuable on the ground. 2. The Black Desert feature is to promote AFK'ing (just saying). 3. Cryptic has been "promoting" getting more character slot without saying. People sees that as the best investment without saying. Character slot is the cheapest way to get more storage, more resource, more salvage limit, more AD. Its price is very low comparing with other services (bag, bank slot, etc). Then, they had a 80% off sale for character slots after they nerf'ed something.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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bigredbrentMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 155Arc User
edited June 2016
Add auto profession and auto invoking options to the top ranks of VIP. Remove VIP from the ZEN store and only allow it to be purchased with real money. Add lifetime VIP for something reasonable like $200.
After that, add BOE items back to the game that can be obtained from dungeons. Also bring back epic versions of all the old dungeons. Then sit back and watch the profits roll in and the player base sky rocket.
This not being done already seems almost criminal...
I have never paid for VIP and am Rank 10. It is not hard to come up with 500k AD a month. That is not a subscription.
It also isn't making them as much money. If they want profits, they should use something like VIP to guarantee an income, instead of HAMSTER up the in game economy whenever they are feeling greedy.
Comments
Like someone mentioned before. The whole game is designed around bots putting RP on AH to sell. But the RP from real bots is not coming from leadership, its coming from skill nodes mostly. Or it did. Stack of rank 5s went from 4k to 30k from the last change a few weeks back. Who did this punish the most? The players because now they have to spend more AD.
There will always be bots in a game like this. They will always move on to the next thing that gives RP/AD or whatever. A few years back when you could make a profit playing the game like running CN for ancient weapons and sell and before they introduced RP to the game, we didn't need bots to afford stuff. But today its much harder.
The ways that we (the players) can farm enough RP or AD is extremely limited and you would have to grind to the death and still not come close to what you want. Nobody in their right mind will repeat the same quests or kill the same mobs over and over and over again for weeks, months and years. Thats why Im extremely happy for the bots. The way Cryptic wants us to play is not a way many players would stick around for.
Edit: They need to go back to the early system with BoE items that is worth farming and selling in AH and once that system is in place, THEN they can work on limiting the bots. But having random drops in CN were only 0.1% of the players actually gets it is insane. I did over 100 CN runs and over 100 Edemo and no artifact/legendary rings. I know many others that did WAY more than that with the same results. Its a really idiotic game design.
Let me ask you, would you rather run CN 500 times and MAYBE get 1 artifact drop worth 1m AD or would you run a few leadership chars that gives you some RP everyday not based on any crazy RNG?
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Since original leadership nerf, I was the thorn in cryptic side over costing, I think if I left they wouldve been happy, this proposal would do nothing for legit players.. nothing.
DO you think invoking is the reason you cant buy zax? its because there is no real reason to sell it. There is your problem.
Ill probably purchase some zen during the double event, buy vip and bags.. BUT there is zero incentive for me to sell zen, Ive never sold zen on purpose (once sold it on accident when I meant to move it, because I forget to lower the price on the listing.)
I will never sell zen.. WHY, BECAUSE there is zero reason to sell it. I cant scream about it loud enough. THE return of selling zen IS bad, horribad.
What they should do is reward players for selling zen so free players can play, say you get the 500 to 1 ratio, but you get like store credit of like 15% of your zen post, so that way you can GET AD, build up credit you can use yourself or something of that nature.
Right now its just too hampered, you clearly dont get enough AD back for selling zen, its always been the case.
At my "casual" playtime of 3 hours a day of NW, I can never catch up to someone who is AFK praying all the time.
Players should be rewarded 5x what afk'ers can earn, just by being active - doing daily/weekly content, doing challenging content that BOTS CANT DO. =D
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Can I copy that? No, I don't have their kind of time or strength.
Thats not call playing game, its a full time job.
If one has the will to endure the hard ship, I have no problem with their effort.
if you've honestly wasted your life invoking just for AD I feel sorry for you.
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Getting a bot for 'commercial' use may "justify" the cost.
For personal use, it is expensive especially that needs to 'upgrade' every time Cryptic does something.
I do not judge how others want to play the game when they are within the rule.
Especially, because of "this content", there is a need to play a new one. Otherwise, it becomes very boring for me.
A 2.8k to 3k character can clear the current content.
I don't have anything besides weapon enchantment which is higher than rank 9.
About 80% of the equipped enhancement is rank 8.
Personally, at this moment, I don't have the urge to get something better. I consider that as luxury.
Also, that may also because the 3 characters (GWF, OP, TR) I actively play do not need higher.
I can imagine SW, HR, CW may.
I think I missed something here how a bot is somehow better than a player. For one thing players hold better conversations.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
NW-DC9R4J5EH - 'The Black Pearl' - Spelljammer! Phlo Riders and Space Orcs
Thanks for all the fish.
Edit: refining is probably the shittiest system I've dealt with in an mmo-rpg. it should be trashed and eliminated and have meaningful drops from dungeons.
As things are I hardly run dungeons any more...the reward/effort ratio simply isn't hogh enough.
Other thing invoking is playing the game, professions is playing the game so getting ad from those is what this game is meant to be -> reward playing the game.
That includes playing the game to earn AD.
e.g. right now, whoever has more toon to play CTA will earn a lot more AD than those who does not.
A naked level 70 character can play CTA. Each one can earn 5000 AD (more with VIP) in 2 runs during this period.
5000 AD * N toons is what one can earn per day in this period.
I also think this game is botting friendly because of it's grind structure. You correctly mentioned invoking. I think the mechanic is fine as incentive to log in daily. I would restructure the rewards to be handed out for a certain amount of consecutive logins, scratch ADs and return to one invoke per day. The incremental invoking is something a bot can handle way better than a human and therefore is counter-productive. Another issue is that too many mechanics scale way too well with character slots.
I'm also a long-time supporter to build rewards around stuff that bots can't do, or can't do effectively. Let utility enchantments drop uncapped and BoE in epic dungeons off kill participation, add more ADs to every completion, increase salvage value of items and include Demogorgon and Tiamat. I'm sure there's plenty of ideas in that regard.
I would disagree though that the game can't be effectively played. The issues the OP describes is an issue of the top 5%. You can very much build up a character and bring it to 3k in reasonable time. The only valid number I know is 430ish hours from zero to 3k, which are about 145 gaming sessions of three hours. Given that you can run any content conveniently at that item level, it's OK.
That's PVE of course. PVP is another story and we definitely need a better way for new players to be more competitive in PVP way faster.
What? Running the gateway might have received a major hit, but since it's the easiest way to bot, they will still do whatever nets the most ADs there.
2. The Black Desert feature is to promote AFK'ing (just saying).
3. Cryptic has been "promoting" getting more character slot without saying. People sees that as the best investment without saying. Character slot is the cheapest way to get more storage, more resource, more salvage limit, more AD. Its price is very low comparing with other services (bag, bank slot, etc). Then, they had a 80% off sale for character slots after they nerf'ed something.
After that, add BOE items back to the game that can be obtained from dungeons. Also bring back epic versions of all the old dungeons. Then sit back and watch the profits roll in and the player base sky rocket.
This not being done already seems almost criminal...