GF has a striker tree. A tree entirely dedicated to DPS. It shouldn't be able to keep up with a GWF and in 99.9% of cases can't even get close. The video shared in this thread is an anomaly. I bet if you replaced that GF with a GWF then it would be even higher again.
So lancer, you are just against GFs having a DPS tree then? Are you in agreement with me that if a GF is the only tank in a group then they will not be winning pain giver because they have to devote too much to tanking? And if there is another GF in the group to tank, and the first GF can act as a DPS (and not tank), is there something wrong with that?
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Okay, Justice is very clearly a DPS path. Find me a Paladin throwing up these numbers.
The only way to find out is to stick a top tier DPS Pally in a group with a top tier buff/debuff GF and Cleric to see what happens. Stick a Pally in that group and I bet you'll be seeing much higher numbers than you expect to. Stick a top tier GWF in there and it'll be crazier still.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
1) That video is of before the Orcus set even came out, so it's before mod 9 and lostmauth's set nerf so it doesn't even pertain to the actual state of balance. 2) Of the abilities that are causing the one shots (Bull Charge or Anvil of Doom), not even one was touched in the recent GF buff changes. It's not the at-wills causing any problem here.The fact that this GF nerf campaign started after the recent changes to OP and GF speaks volume though. Actually Bull Charge received recently a small nerf on PTS (you can no longer use while rooted). 3) There was a DC around there and, against the GWF in 2 vs 1 it still took that GF a couple of minutes to take him down, not exactly a one shot, most of the time he was hitting him for 10k (that the GWF was rapidly healing up), only when the Anvil connected (and this happened thanks to the DC's help) he could get the kill. The TR also lasted a long while and pretty much made a fool of him. The flag point (you know, the thing you have to hold to actually win the game) was being held by the opposing team pretty much the whole time, so this GF, while flexing is muscles, wasn't really helping his team achieve victory, they won despite him and not thanks to him lol. 4) No opponent there had a Stamina drain mark. I'd like to see that GF pull out the same HAMSTER against an ambushing oppressor CW with the stamina drain and see how much he lasts. Some opponents even died with a 50k hit? What the hell? Were they naked? In the end the GF was able to pull off this stunt because there was a huge gulf between the two parties. His party being the clearly superior one. PvP is a group game, not a 1vs1 affair.
Ya, I think this post has ran its course. I can't repeat myself anymore. Hopefully we will soon see more balancing on Preview and it will include bringing class roles back into the game.
What needs to be brought in is more viable paths/builds for the other classes in the game. Some of them, like the Hunter, only have one viable path. The rest barely have two. The GF needs some balancing, sure, but not the blanket nerfs being asked for in this thread. I'd much rather the time was spent on improving the other classes that need it.
Are we all in agreement that a GF who is running dps in a dungeon is using an offense oriented power load out? So, things like anvil, bull charge and KC or a different power instead of KC? And their class features and dailies are similarly dps oriented. As such, would it be fair to say that these dps power load outs completely cripple the ability of said GF to properly tank and protect the party? So a dps load out gf is effectively a dps character in this case.
Now, this gf could start slotting powers to make tanking more viable, but as they do, they lose dps in trade.
So what is the issue here really? That a pve character who completely abandons the ability to do one thing (tank) in favor of doing another (dps) can do the second thing well?
If a pve dps load out GF could tank as well as a tank load out GF we would have a problem for sure.
PvP GFs are a different sort of trouble since they don't need to protect anyone but themselves and thus they can survive damage and then dish it out. But that option is not available in pve. Rather, it is, but having to stop and block all the time drops the dps a gf can do, and that blocking still doesn't help protect the party since it is unlikely the mobs are all focused on the GF... And if they are, and the GF is blocking, then they are not doing dps
Ok, so now justify to me why a GF who goes for dps, does more single target damage than a TR who builds for dps, considering the TR can pretty much only build for dps. Sure, if a GF can build for dps and do it better than a tr, than a TR should be allowed to build for tanking and, considering GF is the better dps, should actually be a superior tank, you know, all things equal and all that.
I don't really know what the cause of super high dps is, as gf is not my main, but something needs to be done about GF and it would be nice if the gfs can decide about it.
Don't you think you should try to find that out BEFORE starting the witch hunt? Just say'n
@sockmunkey i dont think it's his job to find what the cause of the super high damage is. we know that it's from GF, and we know that his crazy damage need to be taken away, because the class it's not a striker one, it's a TANK and a CONTROLER.
Except it's not, is it?
The Tank has three very distinctive trees and roles. It's a Tank, Controller and a Striker. I'll agree that no other class has this diversity or roles (as far as I've seen), but the Tank has. To be a good Striker you have to sacrifice Tanking and Controlling until you're a very high iL. To be a Tank of a Controller, you have to sacrifice any DPS you have - even at a super high level you'll basically be licking people instead of hurting them.
To be a crazy damage GF, you need a crazy high iL and crazy high Guild Boons. There's clearly something going wrong in that original video, but you need to find out what it is and not just call for a blanket nerf of all things Guardian Fighter.
In module 5, people were all arguing for the nerfing of CW, because CW was able to fill more than 1 roll at the same time. By the same argument, GF should be balanced, because it can fill more than 1 role at once.
Okay, Justice is very clearly a DPS path. Find me a Paladin throwing up these numbers.
Pretty much this, a GF that builds purely for dps, does more damage than classes that have it for their primary roll. In contrast, a pally who builds purely for dps, does ~75% the damage of classes that build purely for dps (as in, sacrifice bubble etc for DP+dps encounters). That is more or less in line with what it should be and a GF built purely for dps should fall into the same bracket.
I have an idea. I am a GF-main player but agree Intro the Frey has gotten overpowered in PvE and PvP. It's abused in PvP by Conqueror GFs but still very much needed by GF Tactician tanks (that don't PvP.)
Tact GFs have a feat far up in the tree that makes ITF do 1/2/3/4/5% dmg.
Inspiring Leader: "Into The Fray increases the damage dealt by party members by 1/2/3/4/5% "
How about this: Cap ITF globally and no longer have it related to DR. Rank 1:20% Rank 2:10% Rank 3:10% Rank 4:10% 50% max.
Anything less and a GF conq (me included) won't slot it.
Now modify Inspiring Leader to do 5/5/5/5/5% instead of 1/1/1/1/1% more damage. So Tactician GFs will have a max ITF damage of 75% which is close to where is it now, slightly lower sure but not useless by far!
And PvP GFs will only get a 50% DPS boost instead of 80% or higher in both PvP & PvE. Does that seem far?
A 75% damageboost to a whole group sounds way too much in my world
The numbers can budge. Mind you this is for the Tactician tree only! Tact GFs are buffers by default. And not strong in tanking like a protector or in DPS like a conqueror. So they don't bring much to the table other then buffing. And it's still 15% nerf to tacts and 40/50% nerf to conquers. That's pretty extreme and I wouldn't' go much further with that without knowing more about PvP then I do. Tact GF will never win paingiver ever and I strongly doubt you'll see these pandas 1-shotting in PvP
The skills that is consistant throughout all these whine threads is bull charge (pvp) and anvil (both).
Just nerf em by bull's charge by 30% damage or something, change anvil's 40% bonus to bleed damage. Capping ITF at 80% is good for class balance (so OPs are not entirely useless in comparison). Knight's challenge should stay as it is, because it is situational and has a clear disadvantage attached to it.
If it wasn't for the powercreep, there wouldn't be this level of whine when these crazy numbers were not prevalent.
A 75% damageboost to a whole group sounds way too much in my world
The numbers can budge. Mind you this is for the Tactician tree only! Tact GFs are buffers by default. And not strong in tanking like a protector or in DPS like a conqueror. So they don't bring much to the table other then buffing. And it's still 15% nerf to tacts and 40/50% nerf to conquers. That's pretty extreme and I wouldn't' go much further with that without knowing more about PvP then I do. Tact GF will never win paingiver ever and I strongly doubt you'll see these pandas 1-shotting in PvP
All i know is what a conquerer GF can do in PVP, tactition and protector no clue if that´s a wise setup, tactition will be e huge AP buffer for your teammates I guess. Talking about buffs in a whole. I never saw a game before, juggeling with powers and feats, who spend these ammounts of buffs. 40% damage, 40% DR from a DC (AS+BtS), Hollowed ground another 30% GF...open buff for damage, no clue which is the highest ammounte ever spend , but i assume its far above 200% Long strider shot from Hunter..no clue 40% buff? CW-renegade in the sum is a huge buffer also
What we experience is: all those buffs together in a dungeon is laughable and no content ever will be found to be challenging. I knew buffs like 5-10% more from x or less from y...NWO only know 40%-50%-750%, no clue why things are that way, but I know that cryptic is definitely not able to handle those overbuffs, desperately trying to balance classes arround those "homemade pain".
The skills that is consistant throughout all these whine threads is bull charge (pvp) and anvil (both).
Just nerf em by bull's charge by 30% damage or something, change anvil's 40% bonus to bleed damage. Capping ITF at 80% is good for class balance (so OPs are not entirely useless in comparison). Knight's challenge should stay as it is, because it is situational and has a clear disadvantage attached to it.
If it wasn't for the powercreep, there wouldn't be this level of whine when these crazy numbers were not prevalent.
I think they're whining about those two skills because they see the damage they do. They're the visible symptom, but far from root cause. They don't understand the class and what they're seeing. It's the buff layers. Without the buff layers, this classes' DPS is a joke. Read on..
When you watch these PvP one-hit videos, what do you see?
They enhanced mark them (red X). Give combat advantage for 15ish % dmg? (buff #1)
They stay back and block: Shield Warrior's Wrath, 20%dmg while blocking stacks (buff #2)
They cast Into the frey: Speed boost and 70/80% dmg boost. (buff #3)
The cast Knight's Challenge. Massive 100% dmg boost. (buff #4)
They smack them with the shield. Tide of Iron. 20% dmg boost (buff #5)
Wheel of elements. 30% dmg as fire. (buff #6)
And there is other possibilities.
Trample the fallen feat. Do extra dmg to prone (bull charge) enemies. (buff #7)
Villan's Menace daily. Be CC immune, DR, and do 20% more dmg. (buff #8)
Weapon Master's strike at-will. 30% dmg to at-wills, 10% to encounters. (buff #9)
And there could be other boons and cheeseball PvP tactics I don't even know about. (buff #n+)
So when you see that videos of Bullscharge doing such high amounts of damage in PvP, it's because its hitting with 6-8 buff layers for a minimum of 235% extra damage. And for as high of almost 300% extra damage, at possibly more then that.
So, in my option, nerfs to the at-wills, base damage or the encounters (worse choice IMO) are a bad choice and show a grave misunderstand of how the GF works. If you nerfed just knight's challege and ITF, you chop DPS in half. And you spare other players that aren't using these cheeseball builds in PvE and PvP a class-killing blow
@metalldjt You're really struggling with the concept of a conqueror GF being anything other then a agro-pet/buff-bot in 5-man dungeon runs aren't you? Those days are mostly over for this class, and are certainly over for me.
ITF reduced to 10-20% ? A 70% nerf to the GF's most important skill in group and solo play? That is abhorrently unreasonable! Why lose a skill slot for a buff that will add far less DPS then just another encounter? Did you even consider that? I doubt it.
The GF DPS tree didn't just show up one day, and if you've been playing this game a while, you'd know that the Conq capstone has been nerfed before. It used to be a flat power buff, and it was amazing compared to what it got nerfed to.
And if the GF DPS tree hasn't been touched since mod 6 start, when NWO obviously chose to move the GF into a more striker-related role with the damage buffs in the patch nodes, then why all the hate all of a sudden? If it's not power creep and the class hasn't been touched in 2 mods except for the at-wills 2 weeks ago. What changed?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The skills that is consistant throughout all these whine threads is bull charge (pvp) and anvil (both).
Just nerf em by bull's charge by 30% damage or something, change anvil's 40% bonus to bleed damage. Capping ITF at 80% is good for class balance (so OPs are not entirely useless in comparison). Knight's challenge should stay as it is, because it is situational and has a clear disadvantage attached to it.
If it wasn't for the powercreep, there wouldn't be this level of whine when these crazy numbers were not prevalent.
I think they're whining about those two skills because they see the damage they do. They're the visible symptom, but far from root cause. They don't understand the class and what they're seeing. It's the buff layers. Without the buff layers, this classes' DPS is a joke. Read on..
When you watch these PvP one-hit videos, what do you see?
They enhanced mark them (red X). Give combat advantage for 15ish % dmg? (buff #1)
They stay back and block: Shield Warrior's Wrath, 20%dmg while blocking stacks (buff #2)
They cast Into the frey: Speed boost and 70/80% dmg boost. (buff #3)
The cast Knight's Challenge. Massive 100% dmg boost. (buff #4)
They smack them with the shield. Tide of Iron. 20% dmg boost (buff #5)
Wheel of elements. 30% dmg as fire. (buff #6)
And there is other possibilities.
Trample the fallen feat. Do extra dmg to prone (bull charge) enemies. (buff #7)
Villan's Menace daily. Be CC immune, DR, and do 20% more dmg. (buff #8)
Weapon Master's strike at-will. 30% dmg to at-wills, 10% to encounters. (buff #9)
And there could be other boons and cheeseball PvP tactics I don't even know about. (buff #n+)
So when you see that videos of Bullscharge doing such high amounts of damage in PvP, it's because its hitting with 6-8 buff layers for a minimum of 235% extra damage. And for as high of almost 300% extra damage, at possibly more then that.
So, in my option, nerfs to the at-wills, base damage or the encounters (worse choice IMO) are a bad choice and show a grave misunderstand of how the GF works. If you nerfed just knight's challege and ITF, you chop DPS in half. And you spare other players that aren't using these cheeseball builds in PvE and PvP a class-killing blow
For pve, this sounds reasonable, I am aware that buffs do make a big difference for any class (example GWF hidden daggers or CW chilling presence). I have no idea if this change would effect pvp and I will not be commenting on that.
The skills that is consistant throughout all these whine threads is bull charge (pvp) and anvil (both).
Just nerf em by bull's charge by 30% damage or something, change anvil's 40% bonus to bleed damage. Capping ITF at 80% is good for class balance (so OPs are not entirely useless in comparison). Knight's challenge should stay as it is, because it is situational and has a clear disadvantage attached to it.
If it wasn't for the powercreep, there wouldn't be this level of whine when these crazy numbers were not prevalent.
I think they're whining about those two skills because they see the damage they do. They're the visible symptom, but far from root cause. They don't understand the class and what they're seeing. It's the buff layers. Without the buff layers, this classes' DPS is a joke. Read on..
When you watch these PvP one-hit videos, what do you see?
They enhanced mark them (red X). Give combat advantage for 15ish % dmg? (buff #1)
They stay back and block: Shield Warrior's Wrath, 20%dmg while blocking stacks (buff #2)
They cast Into the frey: Speed boost and 70/80% dmg boost. (buff #3)
The cast Knight's Challenge. Massive 100% dmg boost. (buff #4)
They smack them with the shield. Tide of Iron. 20% dmg boost (buff #5)
Wheel of elements. 30% dmg as fire. (buff #6)
And there is other possibilities.
Trample the fallen feat. Do extra dmg to prone (bull charge) enemies. (buff #7)
Villan's Menace daily. Be CC immune, DR, and do 20% more dmg. (buff #8)
Weapon Master's strike at-will. 30% dmg to at-wills, 10% to encounters. (buff #9)
And there could be other boons and cheeseball PvP tactics I don't even know about. (buff #n+)
So when you see that videos of Bullscharge doing such high amounts of damage in PvP, it's because its hitting with 6-8 buff layers for a minimum of 235% extra damage. And for as high of almost 300% extra damage, at possibly more then that.
So, in my option, nerfs to the at-wills, base damage or the encounters (worse choice IMO) are a bad choice and show a grave misunderstand of how the GF works. If you nerfed just knight's challege and ITF, you chop DPS in half. And you spare other players that aren't using these cheeseball builds in PvE and PvP a class-killing blow
All he does is ITF-mark-BC (misses)-anvil of doom... He is running steel defence (no damagebuff) and shield warriors wrath (3 stacks), reckless attacker 5 stacks, negation (no clue if that buffs ITF), bloodlust from twisted set buffs (ITF), and some else I don´t know But no knight challenge, no tide of iron applied, no fire buff from wheel, and his anvil dealing 1 mio. ... the video is mod 9.
@deathbeez what is wrong about a capstone that spends 10% critchance and 25% damageboost (near all time)
I have an idea. I am a GF-main player but agree Intro the Frey has gotten overpowered in PvE and PvP. It's abused in PvP by Conqueror GFs but still very much needed by GF Tactician tanks (that don't PvP.)
Sorry, stopped there. My main GF is SM tact and i do PvP with her... And trust me, i can deal some damage even if she is a lowy geared GF. So, the problem is not only ITF.
Ok, I stopped. You can do some damage with your tact GM. Erm... No range or frame of reference, you attack my olive-branch attempt at a compromise (seen many of those in this thead besides whining,crusading, and flaming?) while also agreeing an issue exists, with an anecdotal off-the-cuff comment about 'some damage.' Lets stick to the math. Math is very black and white and not open to interpretation and emotions.
Are you saying your Tact can dominate in PvP. Can you prove this? Is your Tac wining paingiver in PvE against like-geared GWFs and CWs. If so, can you prove this?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I have an idea. I am a GF-main player but agree Intro the Frey has gotten overpowered in PvE and PvP. It's abused in PvP by Conqueror GFs but still very much needed by GF Tactician tanks (that don't PvP.)
Sorry, stopped there. My main GF is SM tact and i do PvP with her... And trust me, i can deal some damage even if she is a lowy geared GF. So, the problem is not only ITF.
Ok, I stopped. You can do some damage with your tact GM. Erm... No range or frame of reference, you attack my olive-branch attempt at a compromise (seen many of those in this thead besides whining,crusading, and flaming?) while also agreeing an issue exists, with an anecdotal off-the-cuff comment about 'some damage.' Lets stick to the math. Math is very black and white and not open to interpretation and emotions.
Are you saying your Tact can dominate in PvP. Can you prove this? Is your Tac wining paingiver in PvE against like-geared GWFs and CWs. If so, can you prove this?
@deathbeez all I wanted from this thread was to raise awareness to the fact that the issue existed and then have GFs (who know their class better than I do) to identify the root cause of the issue and then come up with a reasonable solution. As you have shown above, you agree that there is an issue and now I will leave it up to you (and any other gfs that want to get involved) to discuss what you think would be a decent fix. Why do I feel that discussions of class balance should be handled by the people of that class? Simply because they are the people that play the class the most and have the best understanding of it, they have the most to lose by having it balanced and so they will (hopefully, assuming they want balance) try to keep it so the class is competitive, without being over powered. I am sure you, @grimah and others can discuss the exact details of what you feel would be best.
@schietindebux whilst I do agree buffs like 75% are a stupidly large number and should be toned down, its not an issue that is native to the GF class, its an issue across all classes and if the devs are going to address them, they need to addressed on all classes at once. A debuff CW can triple party damage for example. All that happens by making the debuffs/buffs on 1 class reasonable while leaving the rest, is that the class with reasonable buffs gets sidelined because there is always another class that has silly buffs or debuffs. So I would not be in favour of toning down GF buffs to a reasonable level without doing it across all classes at once, since GF should definitely be competitive with other classes in that department.
@sockmunkey i dont think it's his job to find what the cause of the super high damage is. we know that it's from GF, and we know that his crazy damage need to be taken away, because the class it's not a striker one, it's a TANK and a CONTROLER.
cactusjackter said:
Except it's not, is it?
The Tank has three very distinctive trees and roles. It's a Tank, Controller and a Striker. I'll agree that no other class has this diversity or roles (as far as I've seen), but the Tank has. To be a good Striker you have to sacrifice Tanking and Controlling until you're a very high iL. To be a Tank of a Controller, you have to sacrifice any DPS you have - even at a super high level you'll basically be licking people instead of hurting them.
To be a crazy damage GF, you need a crazy high iL and crazy high Guild Boons. There's clearly something going wrong in that original video, but you need to find out what it is and not just call for a blanket nerf of all things Guardian Fighter. i found what the problem is, 100k hit ? there are others where an anvil hit up to 1 milion. but i guess i am a treasure hunter to find things like this.
If someone is hitting a 1 million anvil then there's going to be a debuff DC and another buff GF in there to make that possible. The debuff DC is the one that's really responsible for those crazy numbers.
***edit:grrr...having problems with the quote function - apologies to readers. what follows is my added commentary to the above 2 posters commentary***
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Spellstorm Renegades are healing mages via their capstone. I think that's one reason why Renegade is much more popular now than Thaumaturge. In fact that's one of the reasons I don't need to be a heal DC. Let me repeat - it's because of roleplay diversity of the CW class as healers that "true heal classes" don't have to focus on healing anymore if they don't want to. If CW can strike and heal why can't DC do the same?
CWs are probably the 2nd-most common class in the game after GWF and their capstone procs so much there's never a time when parties are without healing.
So to sum up Renegade CWs also have 3 roles in parties. Striker, Controller and Healer. Should Renegade CWs lose their capstone ability to heal? According to the logic used in this thread - yes. Healing is not part of what CWs are supposed to do so Chaotic Growth needs to be removed. I'd be ok with that even though my CW is renegade. It would go a way toward making healadins and healing DCs more necessary.
All he does is ITF-mark-BC (misses)-anvil of doom... He is running steel defence (no damagebuff) and shield warriors wrath (3 stacks), reckless attacker 5 stacks, negation (no clue if that buffs ITF), bloodlust from twisted set buffs (ITF), and some else I don´t know But no knight challenge, no tide of iron applied, no fire buff from wheel, and his anvil dealing 1 mio. ... the video is mod 9.
So this person does it differently. Sure From what I've seen, they (PvP GFs) also like (prefer?) shield talent so they can block longer, build SWW/capstone stacks and end the fight quicker.
No negation doesn't buff IT. I also thought that but was corrected a couple weeks ago. Neither does Villan's Menace. Nor does sieging rings.
Twisted Bloodlust is lost on getting hit but SWW and the capstone (Relentless Attacker) require getting hit. That's kind of canceles each other out, right? "Gain 160 Power when you strike an enemy, lose a stack when you are struck."
Still ITF is the common denominator. So you're saying that Anvil of Doom killed them alone? So it wasn't the multiplier, because AoD only has the multiplier if the target is under 40% hitpoints. I really don't think AoD is solely at fault here. AoD without the < 40% target HP multiplier does slightly more damage then BC and is, by far the only real DPS encounter for DPS conq GFs so I am going to vehemently defend not nerfing AoD because of a lack of understand of why it's doing what it's doing. Without AoD, a DPS GF is a Tactician GF wearing a conquerors hat and you'd kill the feat tree for solo play. Might as well throw grapes at mods in Well of Dragons.
Can I see this video? Not calling you out and I believe you. I just want to see what you're seeing. Thanks!
@deathbeez what is wrong about a capstone that spends 10% critchance and 25% damageboost (near all time)
Trust me, the old capstone was better. Pre-mod 6, 100 points=1% unlike post mod6 where 400=1%. But GFs didn't have the DPS buff of mod 6. So I don't think it was that OP. But PvPers whiners at it as usual... And so began the GF dark ages till they got buffed again in mod 6. And here we are again...
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We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
2) Of the abilities that are causing the one shots (Bull Charge or Anvil of Doom), not even one was touched in the recent GF buff changes. It's not the at-wills causing any problem here.The fact that this GF nerf campaign started after the recent changes to OP and GF speaks volume though. Actually Bull Charge received recently a small nerf on PTS (you can no longer use while rooted).
3) There was a DC around there and, against the GWF in 2 vs 1 it still took that GF a couple of minutes to take him down, not exactly a one shot, most of the time he was hitting him for 10k (that the GWF was rapidly healing up), only when the Anvil connected (and this happened thanks to the DC's help) he could get the kill. The TR also lasted a long while and pretty much made a fool of him. The flag point (you know, the thing you have to hold to actually win the game) was being held by the opposing team pretty much the whole time, so this GF, while flexing is muscles, wasn't really helping his team achieve victory, they won despite him and not thanks to him lol.
4) No opponent there had a Stamina drain mark. I'd like to see that GF pull out the same HAMSTER against an ambushing oppressor CW with the stamina drain and see how much he lasts. Some opponents even died with a 50k hit? What the hell? Were they naked? In the end the GF was able to pull off this stunt because there was a huge gulf between the two parties. His party being the clearly superior one. PvP is a group game, not a 1vs1 affair.
I am a GF-main player but agree Intro the Frey has gotten overpowered in PvE and PvP.
It's abused in PvP by Conqueror GFs but still very much needed by GF Tactician tanks (that don't PvP.)
Tact GFs have a feat far up in the tree that makes ITF do 1/2/3/4/5% dmg.
Inspiring Leader: "Into The Fray increases the damage dealt by party members by 1/2/3/4/5% "
How about this:
Cap ITF globally and no longer have it related to DR.
Rank 1:20%
Rank 2:10%
Rank 3:10%
Rank 4:10%
50% max.
Anything less and a GF conq (me included) won't slot it.
Now modify Inspiring Leader to do 5/5/5/5/5% instead of 1/1/1/1/1% more damage.
So Tactician GFs will have a max ITF damage of 75% which is close to where is it now, slightly lower sure but not useless by far!
And PvP GFs will only get a 50% DPS boost instead of 80% or higher in both PvP & PvE.
Does that seem far?
Tact GFs are buffers by default. And not strong in tanking like a protector or in DPS like a conqueror.
So they don't bring much to the table other then buffing. And it's still 15% nerf to tacts and 40/50% nerf to conquers. That's pretty extreme and I wouldn't' go much further with that without knowing more about PvP then I do.
Tact GF will never win paingiver ever and I strongly doubt you'll see these pandas 1-shotting in PvP
Just nerf em by bull's charge by 30% damage or something, change anvil's 40% bonus to bleed damage. Capping ITF at 80% is good for class balance (so OPs are not entirely useless in comparison). Knight's challenge should stay as it is, because it is situational and has a clear disadvantage attached to it.
If it wasn't for the powercreep, there wouldn't be this level of whine when these crazy numbers were not prevalent.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Talking about buffs in a whole.
I never saw a game before, juggeling with powers and feats, who spend these ammounts of buffs.
40% damage, 40% DR from a DC (AS+BtS), Hollowed ground another 30%
GF...open buff for damage, no clue which is the highest ammounte ever spend , but i assume its far above 200%
Long strider shot from Hunter..no clue 40% buff?
CW-renegade in the sum is a huge buffer also
What we experience is: all those buffs together in a dungeon is laughable and no content ever will be found to be challenging.
I knew buffs like 5-10% more from x or less from y...NWO only know 40%-50%-750%, no clue why things are that way, but I know that cryptic is definitely not able to handle those overbuffs, desperately trying to balance classes arround those "homemade pain".
When you watch these PvP one-hit videos, what do you see?
- They enhanced mark them (red X). Give combat advantage for 15ish % dmg? (buff #1)
- They stay back and block: Shield Warrior's Wrath, 20%dmg while blocking stacks (buff #2)
- They cast Into the frey: Speed boost and 70/80% dmg boost. (buff #3)
- The cast Knight's Challenge. Massive 100% dmg boost. (buff #4)
- They smack them with the shield. Tide of Iron. 20% dmg boost (buff #5)
- Wheel of elements. 30% dmg as fire. (buff #6)
And there is other possibilities.- Trample the fallen feat. Do extra dmg to prone (bull charge) enemies. (buff #7)
- Villan's Menace daily. Be CC immune, DR, and do 20% more dmg. (buff #8)
- Weapon Master's strike at-will. 30% dmg to at-wills, 10% to encounters. (buff #9)
- And there could be other boons and cheeseball PvP tactics I don't even know about. (buff #n+)
So when you see that videos of Bullscharge doing such high amounts of damage in PvP,it's because its hitting with 6-8 buff layers for a minimum of 235% extra damage. And for as high of almost 300% extra damage, at possibly more then that.
So, in my option, nerfs to the at-wills, base damage or the encounters (worse choice IMO) are a bad choice and show a grave misunderstand of how the GF works.
If you nerfed just knight's challege and ITF, you chop DPS in half. And you spare other players that aren't using these cheeseball builds in PvE and PvP a class-killing blow
You're really struggling with the concept of a conqueror GF being anything other then a agro-pet/buff-bot in 5-man dungeon runs aren't you? Those days are mostly over for this class, and are certainly over for me.
ITF reduced to 10-20% ? A 70% nerf to the GF's most important skill in group and solo play?
That is abhorrently unreasonable! Why lose a skill slot for a buff that will add far less DPS then just another encounter? Did you even consider that? I doubt it.
The GF DPS tree didn't just show up one day, and if you've been playing this game a while, you'd know that the Conq capstone has been nerfed before. It used to be a flat power buff, and it was amazing compared to what it got nerfed to.
And if the GF DPS tree hasn't been touched since mod 6 start, when NWO obviously chose to move the GF into a more striker-related role with the damage buffs in the patch nodes, then why all the hate all of a sudden?
If it's not power creep and the class hasn't been touched in 2 mods except for the at-wills 2 weeks ago. What changed?
For pve, this sounds reasonable, I am aware that buffs do make a big difference for any class (example GWF hidden daggers or CW chilling presence). I have no idea if this change would effect pvp and I will not be commenting on that.
He is running steel defence (no damagebuff) and shield warriors wrath (3 stacks), reckless attacker 5 stacks, negation (no clue if that buffs ITF), bloodlust from twisted set buffs (ITF), and some else I don´t know
But no knight challenge, no tide of iron applied, no fire buff from wheel, and his anvil dealing 1 mio. ... the video is mod 9.
@deathbeez what is wrong about a capstone that spends 10% critchance and 25% damageboost (near all time)
You can do some damage with your tact GM. Erm... No range or frame of reference, you attack my olive-branch attempt at a compromise (seen many of those in this thead besides whining,crusading, and flaming?) while also agreeing an issue exists, with an anecdotal off-the-cuff comment about 'some damage.'
Lets stick to the math. Math is very black and white and not open to interpretation and emotions.
Are you saying your Tact can dominate in PvP. Can you prove this?
Is your Tac wining paingiver in PvE against like-geared GWFs and CWs. If so, can you prove this?
@schietindebux whilst I do agree buffs like 75% are a stupidly large number and should be toned down, its not an issue that is native to the GF class, its an issue across all classes and if the devs are going to address them, they need to addressed on all classes at once. A debuff CW can triple party damage for example. All that happens by making the debuffs/buffs on 1 class reasonable while leaving the rest, is that the class with reasonable buffs gets sidelined because there is always another class that has silly buffs or debuffs. So I would not be in favour of toning down GF buffs to a reasonable level without doing it across all classes at once, since GF should definitely be competitive with other classes in that department.
***edit:grrr...having problems with the quote function - apologies to readers. what follows is my added commentary to the above 2 posters commentary***
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Spellstorm Renegades are healing mages via their capstone. I think that's one reason why Renegade is much more popular now than Thaumaturge. In fact that's one of the reasons I don't need to be a heal DC. Let me repeat - it's because of roleplay diversity of the CW class as healers that "true heal classes" don't have to focus on healing anymore if they don't want to. If CW can strike and heal why can't DC do the same?
CWs are probably the 2nd-most common class in the game after GWF and their capstone procs so much there's never a time when parties are without healing.
So to sum up Renegade CWs also have 3 roles in parties. Striker, Controller and Healer. Should Renegade CWs lose their capstone ability to heal? According to the logic used in this thread - yes. Healing is not part of what CWs are supposed to do so Chaotic Growth needs to be removed. I'd be ok with that even though my CW is renegade. It would go a way toward making healadins and healing DCs more necessary.
From what I've seen, they (PvP GFs) also like (prefer?) shield talent so they can block longer, build SWW/capstone stacks and end the fight quicker.
No negation doesn't buff IT. I also thought that but was corrected a couple weeks ago.
Neither does Villan's Menace. Nor does sieging rings.
Twisted Bloodlust is lost on getting hit but SWW and the capstone (Relentless Attacker) require getting hit. That's kind of canceles each other out, right?
"Gain 160 Power when you strike an enemy, lose a stack when you are struck."
Still ITF is the common denominator. So you're saying that Anvil of Doom killed them alone? So it wasn't the multiplier, because AoD only has the multiplier if the target is under 40% hitpoints. I really don't think AoD is solely at fault here. AoD without the < 40% target HP multiplier does slightly more damage then BC and is, by far the only real DPS encounter for DPS conq GFs so I am going to vehemently defend not nerfing AoD because of a lack of understand of why it's doing what it's doing.
Without AoD, a DPS GF is a Tactician GF wearing a conquerors hat and you'd kill the feat tree for solo play. Might as well throw grapes at mods in Well of Dragons.
Can I see this video? Not calling you out and I believe you. I just want to see what you're seeing. Thanks!
Trust me, the old capstone was better. Pre-mod 6, 100 points=1% unlike post mod6 where 400=1%.
But GFs didn't have the DPS buff of mod 6. So I don't think it was that OP. But PvPers whiners at it as usual... And so began the GF dark ages till they got buffed again in mod 6. And here we are again...