kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
I just removed 27 comments from this thread for either flaming, or quoting a flaming comment, or just being off topic. If you are only posting here to attack other players, don't post here. If you can post constructive feedback in a manner that is not inflammatory, feel free to comment, but this is the final warning. I am watching this thread, I will start handing out infraction points. So play nice.
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my 50cents 1. ITF is over the board since few mods, buffed by HG/AS etc. or a companion with 3xrank12 leads to silly damageboost in PVE and PVP (150%+) As we can see the damageboost from ITF in the very first video leads to a oneshot not the encounter itself. I think it would be good to start with a tonedown of ITF, a cap is needed in PVE and PVP to prevent that crazy synergy with HG+AS.
2. For a tanky class the GF overperforms in terms of damage imho. I met GF´s in PVP who dealt with their at will >50k hits+lolsetbonus vs player wearing tenacity gear
3. those "HAMSTER" GF´s and TR´s are pretty rare in NWO-PVE, that´s why all talk about GWF and warlock. We got a TR in our guild, he is PVE spec, wearing an augment with rank 9th. No clue what his augment is slottet with but...he outdamages a lot of player with the same gearscore, them running fully buffed companions. This is prove enough to me, that a TR can deal damage even without getting a 300% statbuff from his companion
4. about the "25-runs".. it´s hard to tell, since some classes have near no selfbuff/groupbuffs, like warlock (look at that poor run ), some overperform like DC /CW and maybe even TR´s got better groupbuffs than a GWF, who can´t spend much to buff their teammates
5. I never met a DC that can top classes like SW/GWF/TR etc in a boss fight at equal GS, they do good with trashgroups but on a singel target/bossfight they just suck
my 50cents 1. ITF is over the board since few mods, buffed by HG/AS etc. or a companion with 3xrank12 leads to silly damageboost in PVE and PVP (150%+) As we can see the damageboost from ITF in the very first video leads to a oneshot not the encounter itself. I think it would be good to start with a tonedown of ITF, a cap is needed in PVE and PVP to prevent that crazy synergy with HG+AS.
I think we all agree ITF has grown out of scope with the power creep. Yes, I will miss it, my dailies will be more of a chore, but it's not a quit the game nerf. If it's just that... It's the buffs, not the class as a whole, like you said. The single target DPS of a GF is still very low unless buffed with layer and layer of buffs. People are screaming about nerf a GFs power, damage, encounters, buffs, everything under the sun to serve their selfish purposes. Just ITF alone is 80%. Just that. Ok, so is 80% off the top enough? I bet it's not for some of these crusaders. One of these guys is scorned and out for blood.
That edemo video the nerf-brigade love to flaunt as exhibit A has a GF being buffed by another GF. It's almost like they set up this perfect scenario just to use as a nerf after school special video. Look what happens kids when a GF that is going all out DPS with awesome gear is buffed by another that's doing their damnest to make GF1 into a death machine...they...they do acutally DPS *shock and awe...drop of a stroke...the sky rains fire and popcorn..cats and dogs become friends and sing 'We Are The World.'
The fact is the usefullness of this class to be anything other then a buff-bot/agro pet for the DPS elitists, which has spent most of it's game-life in no-one-wants-you-ville is now under attack (again) because 3 ID'ed GF's do DPS and other player's feelings got hurt because they stay up at night dreaming of damage floaters and the paingiver charts, while the other kids dream of sheep and clouds. And they won't be happy unless they are king of DPS ..of that skirmish..that lasted 8 minutes ..that no one will remember it ..or you. It's PvE! There is no special achievement after you got the title waaaay back when. No special candy bar. It's shallow. I'm still trying to mentally digest why so many people are going crazy over this. Don't down-play it. You are.
The rest of the people playing this class will suffer. The ones not trying to show off in edemo. They probably don't have a 4k item level. 3k if they're lucky. They might even be casuals (if any haven't been chased out by hardcore fanatic fanboy'ists yet). The whales playing the FotM game, well, they're used to jumping ship when opportunity (*see bugs/exploits) present themselves. It's the players like me that will feel it the most. I don't have the patience to start over again if the GF goes back to the dark ages. And that is the goal with despicable threads like this.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
my 50cents 1. ITF is over the board since few mods, buffed by HG/AS etc. or a companion with 3xrank12 leads to silly damageboost in PVE and PVP (150%+) As we can see the damageboost from ITF in the very first video leads to a oneshot not the encounter itself. I think it would be good to start with a tonedown of ITF, a cap is needed in PVE and PVP to prevent that crazy synergy with HG+AS.
I think we all agree ITF has grown out of scope with the power creep. Yes, I will miss it, my dailies will be more of a chore, but it's not a quit the game nerf. If it's just that... It's the buffs, not the class as a whole, like you said. The single target DPS of a GF is still very low unless buffed with layer and layer of buffs. People are screaming about nerf a GFs power, damage, encounters, buffs, everything under the sun to serve their selfish purposes. Just ITF alone is 80%. Just that. Ok, so is 80% off the top enough? I bet it's not for some of these crusaders. One of these guys is scorned and out for blood.
That edemo video the nerf-brigade love to flaunt as exhibit A has a GF being buffed by another GF. It's almost like they set up this perfect scenario just to use as a nerf after school special video. Look what happens kids when a GF that is going all out DPS with awesome gear is buffed by another that's doing their damnest to make GF1 into a death machine...they...they do acutally DPS *shock and awe...drop of a stroke...the sky rains fire and popcorn..cats and dogs become friends and sing 'We Are The World.'
The fact is the usefullness of this class to be anything other then a buff-bot/agro pet for the DPS elitists, which has spent most of it's game-life in no-one-wants-you-ville is now under attack (again) because 3 ID'ed GF's do DPS and other player's feelings got hurt because they stay up at night dreaming of damage floaters and the paingiver charts, while the other kids dream of sheep and clouds. And they won't be happy unless they are king of DPS ..of that skirmish..that lasted 8 minutes ..that no one will remember it ..or you. It's PvE! There is no special achievement after you got the title waaaay back when. No special candy bar. It's shallow. I'm still trying to mentally digest why so many people are going crazy over this. Don't down-play it. You are.
The rest of the people playing this class will suffer. The ones not trying to show off in edemo. They probably don't have a 4k item level. 3k if they're lucky. They might even be casuals (if any haven't been chased out by hardcore fanatic fanboy'ists yet). The whales playing the FotM game, well, they're used to jumping ship when opportunity (*see bugs/exploits) present themselves. It's the players like me that will feel it the most. I don't have the patience to start over again if the GF goes back to the dark ages. And that is the goal with despicable threads like this.
Firstly, that was my video and I took 2 gfs because if you assuming that a gf is a dps class, then it makes sense to take a buffer AND a dps, not just 1 or the other. This shows how the GF performs as a dps, rather than a buffer/dps hybrid. It was originally intended to compare GF single target to TR single target. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, I don't really know what the cause of super high dps is, as gf is not my main, but something needs to be done about GF and it would be nice if the gfs can decide about it.
Firstly, that was my video and I took 2 gfs because if you assuming that a gf is a dps class, then it makes sense to take a buffer AND a dps, not just 1 or the other. This shows how the GF performs as a dps, rather than a buffer/dps hybrid. It was originally intended to compare GF single target to TR single target. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, I don't really know what the cause of super high dps is, as gf is not my main, but something needs to be done about GF and it would be nice if the gfs can decide about it.
Fair enough. Nice gear BTW. I spec'ed you in DR. Fancy. Yeah, double GF can be absurd. I wouldn't even think about the combo, because in a standard 5-man, I will at least IFT buff at a minimum. And also agro with Enforced Threat. And then Lunge for mobility & agro corralling. So I would never get the opportunity to do what Freya does here. It would probably be fun.
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
I'm not sure about PvP as I only play PvE, it takes me 2x the time to do dailies etc with my IV Tact GF than it does with my Ren SS CW (roughly same IL, slightly better equipped GF). So if you nerf the GF's damage on the encounts that us "average" players use to complete dailies, well its pretty obvious what that is going to do - make it so booring to play GF that no one will.
Please don't let your ePeen competitions destroy the ability of the majority of GF's to complete the never ending grind that is Dailies & levelling up.
Some of the suggestions here like nerfing ITF so it doesn't buff the GF, only party members, takes away most of our DPS for soloing. Thanks for that suggestion, that's great.
Maybe just reduce the damage the encounts do against players, as opposed to mobs, i.e. don't let Anvil do 2x damage to players. Or make KC less effective against players.
I am assuming that most of the complaining here is about PvP. If your really upset about the amount of buffing and support we give you in PvE, then maybe reduce the effectiveness of ITF / HG / AS, but not completely because imo synergies in the game make it interesting.
@thefabricant & co. - you put a lot of time and effort into this game and put effort into guide's etc. I appreciate that. But please remember that you and the ppl you play with are not average or "normal" players, your 99th percentile players that are fine tuning things to levels most of us can't. I could post hundreds of videos and screen shots (well I could if knew how to embed them into these posts) where tank/buff spec'd GF's like me and other support classes like DCs etc. that I play with are lucky if we are 2nd last in paingiver. When you make suggestions for changes to control / limit the Freya's in the game, it can have pretty drastic ramifications for others like us all way down the skill tree that don't know how to maximise everything and squeeze the best out of our paragon paths / feats / encounters.
If GF's need toning down, please do it in a way that doesn't make doing solo stuff take any longer, and also doesn't remove our ability to get and hold aggro in groups. I play a GF so I can contribute to a team / party, I don't care if I/We don't do so well in the ePeen comparisons - but if it results in making the daily component of the game boring, well that's not a good thing.
Now I'm going to go back to doing my dailies . . . I've used half my allocated playing time this morning reading this "nerf thread"
Are we all in agreement that a GF who is running dps in a dungeon is using an offense oriented power load out? So, things like anvil, bull charge and KC or a different power instead of KC? And their class features and dailies are similarly dps oriented. As such, would it be fair to say that these dps power load outs completely cripple the ability of said GF to properly tank and protect the party? So a dps load out gf is effectively a dps character in this case.
Now, this gf could start slotting powers to make tanking more viable, but as they do, they lose dps in trade.
So what is the issue here really? That a pve character who completely abandons the ability to do one thing (tank) in favor of doing another (dps) can do the second thing well?
If a pve dps load out GF could tank as well as a tank load out GF we would have a problem for sure.
PvP GFs are a different sort of trouble since they don't need to protect anyone but themselves and thus they can survive damage and then dish it out. But that option is not available in pve. Rather, it is, but having to stop and block all the time drops the dps a gf can do, and that blocking still doesn't help protect the party since it is unlikely the mobs are all focused on the GF... And if they are, and the GF is blocking, then they are not doing dps
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I don't really know what the cause of super high dps is, as gf is not my main, but something needs to be done about GF and it would be nice if the gfs can decide about it.
Don't you think you should try to find that out BEFORE starting the witch hunt? Just say'n
It might not be his job, but he took it upon himself to start the topic. And lets be fair the entire tone of the topic is antagonistic. If the goal was to get the GF community to find the cause of the problem. He only succeeded in offending them and getting everyone all defensive.
So while we can agree that there might be a problem waiting to be uncovered. He went about it in a very unproductive way. I simply suggested a bit more investigation before public finger pointing.
Lancer, are you talking pvp or pve there? Because CWs had control and DPS for 5 mods in pve, GFs have not had 5 mods yet.
As I said in my post above that you so happily ignored, in PvE a GF that specs for DPS and uses a DPS load out can't be considered a tank anymore, because they are incapable of defending a party (tanking) and doing the job of a primary DPS. If the GF starts adding tanking powers their DPS goes down a lot. So there is a trade off there, and a perfectly legitimate one.
Things are different in pvp where fights are generally 1 on 1 and a pure tank GF isn't going to do a lot to protect the party from dying, and there since the DPS GF is good at defending themselves only, and then can deal damage, they are very strong.
Overall, ITF can absolutely be toned down so it isn't so absurdly strong
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Yes, a top GF's encounter rotation can kill most players one-on-one. But then they have a 10 second wait before they're useful again. Against other top players they also need to throw a daily in there, which means they're useless for even longer. But if you go one-on-one against a GF then you're an idiot tbf. A top GF should be winning one-on-ones when their full rotation is ready.
Plus it's just so easy to dodge a GF's moves. Only the Pally and GWF can't get out of the way - and if they're properly specced and played by good players, they'll brush off the initial damage from the GF and stalemate for ages.
Think the problem is that far too many people are approaching the game as a solo player. If you're a team player, and actually play as part of an organised well-balanced team, you should be able to nullify any class.
well i am sorry to dissapoint you, but thats problably how you see it . This thread is very constructive and every proof was straight at the topic.
Guardian fighter it's dealing way to much damage for a tank class and it needs to be tonned down, if we disagree on this fact it means we are not on the same page, and you are one of the 'antagonists'. Look let's not play the mouse and the cat game, it's just a waste of time, if you have something to add to the topic, please do it, stop offending players for no reason, The reason that i advocate for class balance is that i am tired of doing PvE and hit with my IBS for 9milion damage and feel that there is no real challenge because of a buff from a into the fray, thats not GFs only utility in the game, so if you wish the contrary of that, please ask for more buffs, maybe it will be better. You people might play this game few minutes per day, but i am playin' it almost all day so it's kinda distatesful what is happening. Not to mention the missinterpretation that there is a witch hunt, it's not our fault, there were 2-3 other players that started to bash us on another thread, so we ended up with this thread that we wish to keep it on topic as much as possible..
We are entitled to provide feedback, and it's pretty accurate, i am feeling more dissapointment coming from the players tryin to diss us for stating the truth.
If you get sentimental over what some GFs are writing, then it means it's fine with how the game it's unbalanced.
Ok, so GFs do too much damage, whats the fix? You don't even know the cause, how can you know the fix? Is it the entire class? Is it a single power, a feat, gear, a single build, or some combination of all this? Calling for nerfs without even knowing what to nerf is irresponsible and a good way to provoke a hostile response, as demonstrated here. 27 posts removed and the mods issuing warnings is not is an indication that things are going well.
But if asking for this is so offensive that you feel I'm attacking you. Then there is little more I can add that you would be willing to hear. So, with that, I wish you good luck on your crusade.
@sockmunkey i dont think it's his job to find what the cause of the super high damage is. we know that it's from GF, and we know that his crazy damage need to be taken away, because the class it's not a striker one, it's a TANK and a CONTROLER.
Except it's not, is it?
The Tank has three very distinctive trees and roles. It's a Tank, Controller and a Striker. I'll agree that no other class has this diversity or roles (as far as I've seen), but the Tank has. To be a good Striker you have to sacrifice Tanking and Controlling until you're a very high iL. To be a Tank of a Controller, you have to sacrifice any DPS you have - even at a super high level you'll basically be licking people instead of hurting them.
To be a crazy damage GF, you need a crazy high iL and crazy high Guild Boons. There's clearly something going wrong in that original video, but you need to find out what it is and not just call for a blanket nerf of all things Guardian Fighter.
Are we all in agreement that a GF who is running dps in a dungeon is using an offense oriented power load out? So, things like anvil, bull charge and KC or a different power instead of KC? And their class features and dailies are similarly dps oriented. As such, would it be fair to say that these dps power load outs completely cripple the ability of said GF to properly tank and protect the party? So a dps load out gf is effectively a dps character in this case.
For most average players yes, but not for the high iL/Guild GFs.
I'm 3.8k iL and in PvE i have 24k Power and hit the 80% damage reduction cap without activating any powers or being buffed in any way. In PvE I can sacrifice about 10% damage resistance and 4k power to hit 100% armour pen.
And my guild only has level 6 Boon structures. If I was in LGPG then it'd be mental what I could do.
Something does need to be done about a GF's damage output, but the ideas thrown around in this thread really aren't the answers and are too short-sighted. Personally I'd direct my attention towards encounter cooldown times and the range of ITF and KV (both of which are massive - you don't need to be anywhere near the GF to benefit from these).
In PvE I'm able to fire off Into The Frey every 8 seconds. In PvP it's every 10 seconds. ItF's buff seems to last 7 seconds. It obviously needs a longer cooldown. It can also buff people very far away from you, so the range could be reduced as well.
With Knight's Valor I can reduce the damage taken by people half way across most Dungeon maps. I'm not sure there's an "arena" map left in PvE where this isn't true. The effective range of KV needs to be reduced.
If Bull Charge is a real problem, then the way to fix it will be to increase the knockback of it. We can literally only just get to the Prone opponent in time to hit Anvil of Doom. Add an extra 5' or 10' knockback to that and we won't have a chance of getting there.
For Anvil, maybe the number of frames it takes to connect needs to be increased along with a lead-in sound effect, more along the lines of a TR's shocking execution (but not as long as it's not as powerful). You can tell when a TR is going to hit you with SE and can dodge out of the way (if your class has a dodge). You get no such warning with AoD.
Lancer, DCs have a DPS tree. that tree is useless to heal with, it gives some buffs but it pretty much DPS only. SWs are a DPS class pure a DPS class gets, but they have a tree that lets them be a healer. CWs are supposed to controllers, but they have more DPS trees than control trees.
Neverwinter is very much about your choice of how to play your class, that is one of the great things about it. That there are options. Everyone is upset that HR and GWF only have 1 viable path (trapper and destroyer) when there are 2 other trees for those classes that go unused because they suck so bad. GWF is supposed to be a off tank.. except they can't. HE should have combat and archer, except they can't with anything remotely as capable as a trapper.
So, if a GF chooses to forgo his ability to tank and decides to DPS, what is the problem? If he can't fulfill 2 rolls at once (tank and DPS at the same time) then there is nothing to get up in arms IMO.
And if a GF is using ITF they are not going to take top damage dealer unless they are the only DPS in the group or all the other PDS are terrible, because they lost a DPS power in order to use ITF, in addition, their ITF will be much weaker than a GF who is actually speced to provide max ITF buffs and do what you say. You will never find a GF that does top DPS in a comparable group and can also provide a ITF that boosts a IBS from 600k to 2-6 million
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Lancer, DCs have a DPS tree. that tree is useless to heal with, it gives some buffs but it pretty much DPS only. SWs are a DPS class pure a DPS class gets, but they have a tree that lets them be a healer. CWs are supposed to controllers, but they have more DPS trees than control trees.
Neverwinter is very much about your choice of how to play your class, that is one of the great things about it. That there are options. Everyone is upset that HR and GWF only have 1 viable path (trapper and destroyer) when there are 2 other trees for those classes that go unused because they suck so bad. GWF is supposed to be a off tank.. except they can't. HE should have combat and archer, except they can't with anything remotely as capable as a trapper.
So, if a GF chooses to forgo his ability to tank and decides to DPS, what is the problem? If he can't fulfill 2 rolls at once (tank and DPS at the same time) then there is nothing to get up in arms IMO.
And if a GF is using ITF they are not going to take top damage dealer unless they are the only DPS in the group or all the other PDS are terrible, because they lost a DPS power in order to use ITF, in addition, their ITF will be much weaker than a GF who is actually speced to provide max ITF buffs and do what you say. You will never find a GF that does top DPS in a comparable group and can also provide a ITF that boosts a IBS from 600k to 2-6 million
The GWF's Sentinel class is massively underrated because everyone assumes GWF = DPS. A life steal orientated Sentinel class will do a lot less damage, but they're nigh-on unkillable. An Iron Vanguard Sentinel is PvP is also a terrifying opponent.
@sockmunkey i dont think it's his job to find what the cause of the super high damage is. we know that it's from GF, and we know that his crazy damage need to be taken away, because the class it's not a striker one, it's a TANK and a CONTROLER.
Except it's not, is it?
The Tank has three very distinctive trees and roles. It's a Tank, Controller and a Striker. I'll agree that no other class has this diversity or roles (as far as I've seen), but the Tank has. To be a good Striker you have to sacrifice Tanking and Controlling until you're a very high iL. To be a Tank of a Controller, you have to sacrifice any DPS you have - even at a super high level you'll basically be licking people instead of hurting them.
To be a crazy damage GF, you need a crazy high iL and crazy high Guild Boons. There's clearly something going wrong in that original video, but you need to find out what it is and not just call for a blanket nerf of all things Guardian Fighter.
i found what the problem is, 100k hit ? there are others where an anvil hit up to 1 milion. but i guess i am a treasure hunter to find things like this.
If someone is hitting a 1 million anvil then there's going to be a debuff DC and another buff GF in there to make that possible. The debuff DC is the one that's really responsible for those crazy numbers.
Are we all in agreement that a GF who is running dps in a dungeon is using an offense oriented power load out? So, things like anvil, bull charge and KC or a different power instead of KC? And their class features and dailies are similarly dps oriented. As such, would it be fair to say that these dps power load outs completely cripple the ability of said GF to properly tank and protect the party? So a dps load out gf is effectively a dps character in this case.
For most average players yes, but not for the high iL/Guild GFs.
I'm 3.8k iL and in PvE i have 24k Power and hit the 80% damage reduction cap without activating any powers or being buffed in any way. In PvE I can sacrifice about 10% damage resistance and 4k power to hit 100% armour pen.
And my guild only has level 6 Boon structures. If I was in LGPG then it'd be mental what I could do.
Something does need to be done about a GF's damage output, but the ideas thrown around in this thread really aren't the answers and are too short-sighted. Personally I'd direct my attention towards encounter cooldown times and the range of ITF and KV (both of which are massive - you don't need to be anywhere near the GF to benefit from these).
In PvE I'm able to fire off Into The Frey every 8 seconds. In PvP it's every 10 seconds. ItF's buff seems to last 7 seconds. It obviously needs a longer cooldown. It can also buff people very far away from you, so the range could be reduced as well.
With Knight's Valor I can reduce the damage taken by people half way across most Dungeon maps. I'm not sure there's an "arena" map left in PvE where this isn't true. The effective range of KV needs to be reduced.
If Bull Charge is a real problem, then the way to fix it will be to increase the knockback of it. We can literally only just get to the Prone opponent in time to hit Anvil of Doom. Add an extra 5' or 10' knockback to that and we won't have a chance of getting there.
For Anvil, maybe the number of frames it takes to connect needs to be increased along with a lead-in sound effect, more along the lines of a TR's shocking execution (but not as long as it's not as powerful). You can tell when a TR is going to hit you with SE and can dodge out of the way (if your class has a dodge). You get no such warning with AoD.
ITF has a range of 50 feet. that isn't that large. ITF's buff lasts 8 seconds. KV's range is 150 feet and stops working if you are out of line of sight. For perspective, CW ranged powers can be used from 80 feet away. Sacrificing DR and power to get 100% armor pen (i assume you mean 100% resistance ignored) is stupid, since the DR cap in pve is 60% and that xbox rumor is just a rumor. Anvil also has a reasonably long animation, and if you know anything about playing against a GF you know when they are going to use anvil.
And yes, even a max geared GF has to choose between being a great tank or a great DPS (on par with GWF) or run a hybrid path which means he is not good at either. just because you have stats for DPS doesn't mean you can do DPS if you have a tanking power load out
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The GWF's Sentinel class is massively underrated because everyone assumes GWF = DPS. A life steal orientated Sentinel class will do a lot less damage, but they're nigh-on unkillable. An Iron Vanguard Sentinel is PvP is also a terrifying opponent.
Can a lifesteal oriented sentinal GWF tank a T2 dungeon? can they tank orcus? that is what a tank is and what they do. Sentinal cannot do either of those things. PvP might be a different story but I don't think sentinal in pvp stacks up as well as you think it does, it could be playable, but not effective
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The GWF's Sentinel class is massively underrated because everyone assumes GWF = DPS. A life steal orientated Sentinel class will do a lot less damage, but they're nigh-on unkillable. An Iron Vanguard Sentinel is PvP is also a terrifying opponent.
Can a lifesteal oriented sentinal GWF tank a T2 dungeon? can they tank orcus? that is what a tank is and what they do. Sentinal cannot do either of those things. PvP might be a different story but I don't think sentinal in pvp stacks up as well as you think it does, it could be playable, but not effective
No, a GWF wont be able to tank Orcus because Orcus is an incredibly cheap OHKO boss with pretty much all of his moves. Even an 80%DR GF will be one-hit if he drops the shield at the wrong time to try and throw a buff out or regen some stamina (which, with the amount of lag there currently is in his fight, is pretty easy to get wrong).
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1. ITF is over the board since few mods, buffed by HG/AS etc. or a companion with 3xrank12 leads to silly damageboost in PVE and PVP (150%+)
As we can see the damageboost from ITF in the very first video leads to a oneshot not the encounter itself.
I think it would be good to start with a tonedown of ITF, a cap is needed in PVE and PVP to prevent that crazy synergy with HG+AS.
2. For a tanky class the GF overperforms in terms of damage imho. I met GF´s in PVP who dealt with their at will >50k hits+lolsetbonus vs player wearing tenacity gear
3. those "HAMSTER" GF´s and TR´s are pretty rare in NWO-PVE, that´s why all talk about GWF and warlock.
We got a TR in our guild, he is PVE spec, wearing an augment with rank 9th. No clue what his augment is slottet with but...he outdamages a lot of player with the same gearscore, them running fully buffed companions.
This is prove enough to me, that a TR can deal damage even without getting a 300% statbuff from his companion
4. about the "25-runs".. it´s hard to tell, since some classes have near no selfbuff/groupbuffs, like warlock (look at that poor run
some overperform like DC /CW and maybe even TR´s got better groupbuffs than a GWF, who can´t spend much to buff their teammates
5. I never met a DC that can top classes like SW/GWF/TR etc in a boss fight at equal GS, they do good with trashgroups but on a singel target/bossfight they just suck
Yes, I will miss it, my dailies will be more of a chore, but it's not a quit the game nerf. If it's just that...
It's the buffs, not the class as a whole, like you said.
The single target DPS of a GF is still very low unless buffed with layer and layer of buffs. People are screaming about nerf a GFs power, damage, encounters, buffs, everything under the sun to serve their selfish purposes. Just ITF alone is 80%. Just that.
Ok, so is 80% off the top enough? I bet it's not for some of these crusaders. One of these guys is scorned and out for blood.
That edemo video the nerf-brigade love to flaunt as exhibit A has a GF being buffed by another GF. It's almost like they set up this perfect scenario just to use as a nerf after school special video. Look what happens kids when a GF that is going all out DPS with awesome gear is buffed by another that's doing their damnest to make GF1 into a death machine...they...they do acutally DPS *shock and awe...drop of a stroke...the sky rains fire and popcorn..cats and dogs become friends and sing 'We Are The World.'
The fact is the usefullness of this class to be anything other then a buff-bot/agro pet for the DPS elitists, which has spent most of it's game-life in no-one-wants-you-ville is now under attack (again) because 3 ID'ed GF's do DPS and other player's feelings got hurt because they stay up at night dreaming of damage floaters and the paingiver charts, while the other kids dream of sheep and clouds. And they won't be happy unless they are king of DPS ..of that skirmish..that lasted 8 minutes ..that no one will remember it ..or you. It's PvE! There is no special achievement after you got the title waaaay back when. No special candy bar. It's shallow. I'm still trying to mentally digest why so many people are going crazy over this. Don't down-play it. You are.
The rest of the people playing this class will suffer. The ones not trying to show off in edemo. They probably don't have a 4k item level. 3k if they're lucky. They might even be casuals (if any haven't been chased out by hardcore fanatic fanboy'ists yet). The whales playing the FotM game, well, they're used to jumping ship when opportunity (*see bugs/exploits) present themselves. It's the players like me that will feel it the most. I don't have the patience to start over again if the GF goes back to the dark ages. And that is the goal with despicable threads like this.
Yeah, double GF can be absurd. I wouldn't even think about the combo, because in a standard 5-man, I will at least IFT buff at a minimum. And also agro with Enforced Threat. And then Lunge for mobility & agro corralling. So I would never get the opportunity to do what Freya does here. It would probably be fun.
Please don't let your ePeen competitions destroy the ability of the majority of GF's to complete the never ending grind that is Dailies & levelling up.
Some of the suggestions here like nerfing ITF so it doesn't buff the GF, only party members, takes away most of our DPS for soloing. Thanks for that suggestion, that's great.
Maybe just reduce the damage the encounts do against players, as opposed to mobs, i.e. don't let Anvil do 2x damage to players. Or make KC less effective against players.
I am assuming that most of the complaining here is about PvP. If your really upset about the amount of buffing and support we give you in PvE, then maybe reduce the effectiveness of ITF / HG / AS, but not completely because imo synergies in the game make it interesting.
@thefabricant & co. - you put a lot of time and effort into this game and put effort into guide's etc. I appreciate that. But please remember that you and the ppl you play with are not average or "normal" players, your 99th percentile players that are fine tuning things to levels most of us can't. I could post hundreds of videos and screen shots (well I could if knew how to embed them into these posts) where tank/buff spec'd GF's like me and other support classes like DCs etc. that I play with are lucky if we are 2nd last in paingiver. When you make suggestions for changes to control / limit the Freya's in the game, it can have pretty drastic ramifications for others like us all way down the skill tree that don't know how to maximise everything and squeeze the best out of our paragon paths / feats / encounters.
If GF's need toning down, please do it in a way that doesn't make doing solo stuff take any longer, and also doesn't remove our ability to get and hold aggro in groups. I play a GF so I can contribute to a team / party, I don't care if I/We don't do so well in the ePeen comparisons - but if it results in making the daily component of the game boring, well that's not a good thing.
Now I'm going to go back to doing my dailies . . . I've used half my allocated playing time this morning reading this "nerf thread"
The wife will be getting impatient
Now, this gf could start slotting powers to make tanking more viable, but as they do, they lose dps in trade.
So what is the issue here really? That a pve character who completely abandons the ability to do one thing (tank) in favor of doing another (dps) can do the second thing well?
If a pve dps load out GF could tank as well as a tank load out GF we would have a problem for sure.
PvP GFs are a different sort of trouble since they don't need to protect anyone but themselves and thus they can survive damage and then dish it out. But that option is not available in pve. Rather, it is, but having to stop and block all the time drops the dps a gf can do, and that blocking still doesn't help protect the party since it is unlikely the mobs are all focused on the GF... And if they are, and the GF is blocking, then they are not doing dps
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So while we can agree that there might be a problem waiting to be uncovered. He went about it in a very unproductive way. I simply suggested a bit more investigation before public finger pointing.
As I said in my post above that you so happily ignored, in PvE a GF that specs for DPS and uses a DPS load out can't be considered a tank anymore, because they are incapable of defending a party (tanking) and doing the job of a primary DPS. If the GF starts adding tanking powers their DPS goes down a lot. So there is a trade off there, and a perfectly legitimate one.
Things are different in pvp where fights are generally 1 on 1 and a pure tank GF isn't going to do a lot to protect the party from dying, and there since the DPS GF is good at defending themselves only, and then can deal damage, they are very strong.
Overall, ITF can absolutely be toned down so it isn't so absurdly strong
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Plus it's just so easy to dodge a GF's moves. Only the Pally and GWF can't get out of the way - and if they're properly specced and played by good players, they'll brush off the initial damage from the GF and stalemate for ages.
Think the problem is that far too many people are approaching the game as a solo player. If you're a team player, and actually play as part of an organised well-balanced team, you should be able to nullify any class.
Ok, so GFs do too much damage, whats the fix? You don't even know the cause, how can you know the fix? Is it the entire class? Is it a single power, a feat, gear, a single build, or some combination of all this? Calling for nerfs without even knowing what to nerf is irresponsible and a good way to provoke a hostile response, as demonstrated here. 27 posts removed and the mods issuing warnings is not is an indication that things are going well.
But if asking for this is so offensive that you feel I'm attacking you. Then there is little more I can add that you would be willing to hear. So, with that, I wish you good luck on your crusade.
The Tank has three very distinctive trees and roles. It's a Tank, Controller and a Striker. I'll agree that no other class has this diversity or roles (as far as I've seen), but the Tank has. To be a good Striker you have to sacrifice Tanking and Controlling until you're a very high iL. To be a Tank of a Controller, you have to sacrifice any DPS you have - even at a super high level you'll basically be licking people instead of hurting them.
To be a crazy damage GF, you need a crazy high iL and crazy high Guild Boons. There's clearly something going wrong in that original video, but you need to find out what it is and not just call for a blanket nerf of all things Guardian Fighter.
I'm 3.8k iL and in PvE i have 24k Power and hit the 80% damage reduction cap without activating any powers or being buffed in any way. In PvE I can sacrifice about 10% damage resistance and 4k power to hit 100% armour pen.
And my guild only has level 6 Boon structures. If I was in LGPG then it'd be mental what I could do.
Something does need to be done about a GF's damage output, but the ideas thrown around in this thread really aren't the answers and are too short-sighted. Personally I'd direct my attention towards encounter cooldown times and the range of ITF and KV (both of which are massive - you don't need to be anywhere near the GF to benefit from these).
In PvE I'm able to fire off Into The Frey every 8 seconds. In PvP it's every 10 seconds. ItF's buff seems to last 7 seconds. It obviously needs a longer cooldown. It can also buff people very far away from you, so the range could be reduced as well.
With Knight's Valor I can reduce the damage taken by people half way across most Dungeon maps. I'm not sure there's an "arena" map left in PvE where this isn't true. The effective range of KV needs to be reduced.
If Bull Charge is a real problem, then the way to fix it will be to increase the knockback of it. We can literally only just get to the Prone opponent in time to hit Anvil of Doom. Add an extra 5' or 10' knockback to that and we won't have a chance of getting there.
For Anvil, maybe the number of frames it takes to connect needs to be increased along with a lead-in sound effect, more along the lines of a TR's shocking execution (but not as long as it's not as powerful). You can tell when a TR is going to hit you with SE and can dodge out of the way (if your class has a dodge). You get no such warning with AoD.
Neverwinter is very much about your choice of how to play your class, that is one of the great things about it. That there are options. Everyone is upset that HR and GWF only have 1 viable path (trapper and destroyer) when there are 2 other trees for those classes that go unused because they suck so bad. GWF is supposed to be a off tank.. except they can't. HE should have combat and archer, except they can't with anything remotely as capable as a trapper.
So, if a GF chooses to forgo his ability to tank and decides to DPS, what is the problem? If he can't fulfill 2 rolls at once (tank and DPS at the same time) then there is nothing to get up in arms IMO.
And if a GF is using ITF they are not going to take top damage dealer unless they are the only DPS in the group or all the other PDS are terrible, because they lost a DPS power in order to use ITF, in addition, their ITF will be much weaker than a GF who is actually speced to provide max ITF buffs and do what you say. You will never find a GF that does top DPS in a comparable group and can also provide a ITF that boosts a IBS from 600k to 2-6 million
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And yes, even a max geared GF has to choose between being a great tank or a great DPS (on par with GWF) or run a hybrid path which means he is not good at either. just because you have stats for DPS doesn't mean you can do DPS if you have a tanking power load out
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!