i pretty like the way they heal both trees i will never say no to a virtuous because got fixed his haste.
So what's the differences between the faithful and the virtuous regardless the heal mechanic? There are, but now they're so few (divinity gain mechanic or power buff as examples). I'm looking at the overall DC picture, not heals or GoH only. What I want to stress is that this is a shortsighted nerf (needed for sure to stop overpower interactions) but it's not a design review: for any experienced DC this is absolutely clear and evident. I'm a 3.8k virtuous DC with +93% ap gain: I can live even with this nerf because I don't rely on GoH only (build a DC around 1 feat only is a big mistake that few clerics understand). I can still provide up to 8/9 % AP boost every ~7-9 seconds using other DC feats, already tested. But if I think about 2.2k virtuous DCs...well...good luck. The nerf hits them, not me; here I see the lack of design. The teams will always need AP, but now you can be a faithful or a righteous with GoH...being virtuous is not relevant anymore.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Disappointing to see such hefty changes to a character I just respec'ed. I'm relatively new to the game but seeing the drastic difference in active time for these perks is frustrating. I certainly hope the OP's get a DPS buff at least. I'm not even 70 yet and can see how they lack in output. Also hope the free respec someone mentioned is true because I suspect I'm gonna need it.
Again @strumslinger did state these changes aren't final, so please Andy don't let it go down like this, this nerf is way to hardcore and harsh on most levels and I have to say it is unacceptable for the customers to go threw this much less from what I read you go threw this as well with your build, But imagine how I feel I am a DPS Tank Paladin Oath of protection, with Lost Set, so im feeling this nerf fairly hard here when I went to test on test server and im not pleased with the bubble 6 seconds that should be like 12 seconds atleast, 20 was overrated but 12 seconds is plenty for rank 4 power, anything less I think is just bit harsh, min I say 10 seconds as a bargaining tool but I like the number 12 lets get some slack here please, lets not be to abrasive with these nerfs its agitating to go threw this as it has been like this for a long while now please consider this kindly please don't hurt us this bad.......
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
^^ THIS, pretty much this. But if the devs want to implement GoH as they have planned, they should review the overall virtuous path
Well said here, something I've missed out on my last post but TOTAL agreement on this. DC isn't an AP bot but they shouldn't nerf one path to oblivion either, each path needs to have its own functionality.
If you really want to nerf GoH, go ahead but remember to remove the AP gain penalty on DC dailies which last time you all nerf us without reason. Do not hurt DC anymore when you dont have to, if you need more information abt DC, please ask the devs who mained a DC to go into temple forum to discuss with us, ty!! (though i think this guy not exist)
Yup.. that needs to be addressed too! We have lost too much because of unthoughful designs. I still believe a change to GoH is good and badly needed but not a hard nerf, too many direct nerfs w/o thinking of the big picture this time round.
Of course the OP needed a massive nerf. Making the class more comparable to others in terms of power is what balancing means, not 'destroying' the class. It'll make content harder because it was never intended to be that you can just run through it with an OP and basically ignore damage and have no need for healing.
Divine Protector, at max rank, lasts 20 seconds. For this duration, you redirect 100% of the damage from your entire party to yourself. All of that damage is reduced by 80% before it actually hits you. Then your normal damage resistance gets applied. The end result with this power in its current state is that… no one cares about damage. All but the most dangerous enemy splat attacks are completely ignored, healing is unimportant, and even having a geared up tank isn’t terribly important. Even without the Gift of Haste interaction, it’s not hard to focus solely on AP generation and get this close to 100% up time.
lol still wind up dying anyhow someway some how Unless you got the perfect party.............
I am disappointed in not seeing other changes though. GWF is way more powerful than other classes. It seems they pretend it i not the case. I was actually hoping for a nerf for them. No one can claim that with GWF, there is class balance in the game.
Their ridicolously high dps comes from their ability to selfbuff lostmauth set buff's procces, this will go away.
Disappointing to see such hefty changes to a character I just respec'ed. I'm relatively new to the game but seeing the drastic difference in active time for these perks is frustrating. I certainly hope the OP's get a DPS buff at least. I'm not even 70 yet and can see how they lack in output. Also hope the free respec someone mentioned is true because I suspect I'm gonna need it.
Check Bane, it's really great for bosses. (30% more damage they get, 30% less damage they give)
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited April 2016
I have a suspicion we might see something like "Based on the player feedback we received we revised the duration from 6 seconds to 8" or something like that. They said pretty clearly that the changes are not final, and expect some adjustments to be made, depending on feedback.
I repeat my opinion that the changes were needed. I am sick and tired of running a dungeon with a permabubble paladin with a group that does not bother to think about strategy or tactics. It takes the fun of the challenge away for me.
I am also tired of not feeling wanted in groups as my main is a non-haste righteous DC.
On the subject of DC changes - it is good to have the description of Divine Glow match reality (although I would of course have preferred a fix to make it stack), but the power is still broken because it does not proc weapon enchants that it should proc (enchants that should proc on encounter use....the enchant descriptions do not say "...trigger on encounter use, other than the DC Divine Glow..."
I like the nerf of Pally/DC! It makes the game a lot more interesting. On the other hand, GF now becomes a lot more important. I am disappointed in not seeing other changes though. GWF is way more powerful than other classes. It seems they pretend it i not the case. I was actually hoping for a nerf for them. No one can claim that with GWF, there is class balance in the game.
What nerf? why nerf GWF?!!! not every GWF with 20k crti and 40k power.
3k CW and SW can out DPS 3.5k GWF in CN, is that I can said their OP and need nerf?
Oathbound Paladins will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.
Ok so I've read all the patch notes for OPs and the most obvious related one the Gift of Haste change, and I think that is all a reasonable starting point for adjusting the class.
However the removal of the 20% damage buff, even as small as it is, worries me due to the particularly poor damage we deal if not Justice spec.
The other concern I have is holding agro. With DP it doesn't matter how well we hold agro, we are taking all the damage already. Without DP it starts mattering a lot and our ability to hold agro is quite weak. I'm fine with adjusting the dailies, but we need to be able to hold agro (and take back agro) better in these circumstances.
Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Yup.. that needs to be addressed too! We have lost too much because of unthoughful designs. I still believe a change to GoH is good and badly needed but not a hard nerf, too many direct nerfs w/o thinking of the big picture this time round.
Unfortunately it is a nerf only, that's not a design review: the two things are "slightly" different and that's why the DC, as it is today, is the result of a sequence of nerfs. Making the DC effective is left to the intelligence, creativity and experience of the players and not by design. I'm willing to provide alternatives: "if you touch GoH in this way -> those are the consequences at larger scale on the overall DC design -> you can improve other feats". I don't live for GoH, but I would like to have a virtuous DC playing the role effectively (see damage mitigation as a potential direction for improvements). I'm with @jazzfong: the devs should have a constructive discussion in the Temple forum.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Oathbound Paladins will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.
Ok so I've read all the patch notes for OPs and the most obvious related one the Gift of Haste change, and I think that is all a reasonable starting point for adjusting the class.
However the removal of the 20% damage buff, even as small as it is, worries me due to the particularly poor damage we deal if not Justice spec.
The other concern I have is holding agro. With DP it doesn't matter how well we hold agro, we are taking all the damage already. Without DP it starts mattering a lot and our ability to hold agro is quite weak. I'm fine with adjusting the dailies, but we need to be able to hold agro (and take back) agro better in these circumstances.
speak of the agro, looks like the devs forgot why GF was buffered their damage and thread...it may same old situation to OP now.
once again....why nerf Shield of Faith? even with current -50%, teammates sometimes still got 1 shot kill. -30% and increase healing? please don't make me laugh, my teammate is dead how can i heal?
Is this some kind of April Fool's joke? You know that most people consider paladins useful only because of divine protector? And now you nerf it - alright, that was needed (but not from 20sec to 6sec, this is insane), but as I can see, other changes are only nerfs, while GF, if I understand correctly, got improvements. Should't paladins get dps increase at least instead of dps nerf (because most of these changes will also decrease OP's dps) or you want players to simply leave their OPs for next balance-crushing patch and until then let GFs rule with their ITF skill?
First of all, you guys need to fix Relentless Avenger and Bane because as Oath of Protection, they are still targeting allies and I get an error message. This has been unaddressed since the Paladin's release.
Secondly, there should at least be a feat in the Bulwark tree to extend Divine Protector because as Bulwark is now, it's rather redundant as gaining temporary shields do very little in epic dungeons and shields are rather unnecessary when using Templar's Wrath and Shielding Strike. I could go full Justice and tank just fine, whereas going Bulwark, I lose a lot of dps.
Thirdly, with the bubble gone, there should be some compensation in the pvp department to make them viable.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The problem with the bubble paladin+hasteDC combo is that it made much of the content trivial. Players could afford to play badly, not dodge threats, use inferior powers, bad gear, bad tactics and no strategy and stll they would succeed. This made PUGs with this combo absolutely horribly boring.
Thank you...thank you...thank you for getting rid of this. The game badly needed a challenge boost.
Hoping for improvements...
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boltzmann42Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 46Arc User
Ok, those changes are awesome. Seriously, it's good for the class and the game. Both were boring as hell and ridiculously trivial, with those changes it will be better.
For those that think the class will be destroyed. I laugh at you (l2p), other classes got hit harder and are/were still appreciated (CW, SW, premod6 GWF, etc). Stop QQing, 6sec is very long. Sure it's way shorter than 20 sec but 20seconds were infinitly long. Furthermore with the change in the ridiculous AP gain, no more perma-bubble and this was long due.
have guys lost your minds making the guardian fighters power recharge even quicker you have just made the pvp guardian fighters that are using the stealth rings that much more impossible to beat rethink this or get rid of the stealth rings
The stealth rings.. ALWAYS get rid of the stealth rings.
Ok, those changes are awesome. Seriously, it's good for the class and the game. Both were boring as hell and ridiculously trivial, with those changes it will be better.
For those that think the class will be destroyed. I laugh at you (l2p), other classes got hit harder and are/were still appreciated (CW, SW, premod6 GWF, etc). Stop QQing, 6sec is very long. Sure it's way shorter than 20 sec but 20seconds were infinitly long. Furthermore with the change in the ridiculous AP gain, no more perma-bubble and this was long due.
Hit harder ?!!! I can say I played since beta Gwf, Gf,k Dc then Hr and SW when they came out and even if Gwf did have a short downtime how the game was then and how the game is now makes this nerf harder then anything before including poor Hrs who never came back (Gwf sure did not to mention Sw and Cw getting nerf what game are you playing no class ruled pve like the Cws in this game talk about getting laughed at).
Perma bubble had to go but have you ever heard anybody complain about the other daily's (unless you took 3 pals into a dungeon and with the changes to healadin crawled trough on your knees).
AP gain is a joke and all other classes that can through daily's out of their ears are still around seeing a Gf fire off 3-4 daily's in a 10 sec period dubble exe etc etc is ok in your world then?
Time cap for daily's is a must if you want to keep calling them daily's now days they are more like encounters and (which mention earlier this new "bubble" will become only way worse then Gfs kv due to restrictions.
Capping all daily's that is game breaking to 1-1.5 min and you don't have to even think about the AP gain syndrome which is broken beyond already would be a much better solution.
Now let me know what makes the Paladin as a class so valid after these changes that they will be picked from the LFG channel or make people want to start one, until then I think I laugh at you and your l2p nonsense....
You say your doing these changes to bring balance back to the game, well alot of people can barely survive as is to complete the higher level stuff like Epic Demogorgon. How do you expect the average player group to defeat this skirmish and others with the proposed super nerfs? How do you expect anyone to survive with less dps and almost no bubble with constant insanity kicking? Your sense of game balancing of late is ridiculous and will no doubt be responsible for more people leaving this game. Its supposed to be fun, not a constant dev vs player battle that seems to be the new norm. FYI, if you want to curb gross manipulation of an obvious bug, offer good rewards to people that report them.
all those dungeons can be done without a cleric in team, depends on the team and their dps. making us-clerics weaker just makes us more useless. usually people expect you to buff their damage, not heal- that's the best way to survive, kill fast, get through the dungeon fast (I can get through t1 and some t2 dungeons without using pure healing powers- WITHOUT OP in team, obviously in some boss fights heal is required but still...) Why instead of creating more problems, changing current skills won't you fix bugged powers of cleric. I believe hastening light was implemented in mod7? if I'm not mistaken. and since then that skill hasn't been working... I understand u had to nerf op, it was to be expected, but why at the cost of another class?
ok here is a thought, if we got to take all these nerfs to the dome like this, then please make all our current artifacts that we already have equipped, bind to account, so if I decide to play another Character I can easily do so without much hassle.
Let's see, after all of the prior nerfs, all of the perpetually ignored game-crashing bugs, after stripping AD out of leadership, and after the tradebar screwjob, I get to spend another several hundred $$ in Zen to regear my two support characters and my HR - enchants, armor, artifacts, plus all the refinement for said enchants and artifacts, new companions, plus respec tokens.... or spend $99 to get everything I could possibly want to get in The Division and join my friends there.... I wonder what I will choose... hmmmmm.....
Super ;-/ too much DC is in the game .. Now only waiting for the hour to healer came to queue on the dungeons .. interesting how many DC AP resigns from the game? And the longer it will be waited for queue .. certainly greater interest in this game ..
The cost of replacing equipment may be too big a blow to some players.
Killing Virtuous path does not serve in any way a new players and only irritates experienced players
Super ;-/ too much DC is in the game .. Now only waiting for the hour to healer came to queue on the dungeons .. interesting how many DC AP resigns from the game? And the longer it will be waited for queue .. certainly greater interest in this game ..
The cost of replacing equipment may be too big a blow to some players.
Killing Virtuous path does not serve in any way a new players and only irritates experienced players
Sorry for poor English is not my native language.
OP heals better than any DC if they spec to heal, and there are still many DCs around for you, however in righteous debuff spec.
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
Oddly enough, I don't seem to have a "bubble paladin" or a "haste cleric". I do have an "Oath of Protection" and a "Virtuous"..
The problem with the bubble paladin+hasteDC combo is that it made much of the content trivial. Players could afford to play badly, not dodge threats, use inferior powers, bad gear, bad tactics and no strategy and stll they would succeed. This made PUGs with this combo absolutely horribly boring.
Thank you...thank you...thank you for getting rid of this. The game badly needed a challenge boost.
Funny how you speak for those around 1.5-2.5k players as they are the majority. This game needed a challenge boost, how so if you want there is NOTHING that prevents you from running dungeons without Pal or Dc for that matter or with some all in geen or naked. How you find the game fun can hardly be the standard from which all other should play unless you own the game and my guess is you dont.
I think the problem for you is that you think you know what is best for others instead of playing the game as you want. Taking Gf instead of Pal was and is an option so is running with the gear you find up to your standard for being challenging.
Gf having issues with being bypassed in lfg channel for certain (horrible balanced super hard hitting bosses) is one thing you dictating how others should find the game fun is a completely other and totally irrelevant to the issue at hand....
Comments
I'm looking at the overall DC picture, not heals or GoH only.
What I want to stress is that this is a shortsighted nerf (needed for sure to stop overpower interactions) but it's not a design review: for any experienced DC this is absolutely clear and evident.
I'm a 3.8k virtuous DC with +93% ap gain: I can live even with this nerf because I don't rely on GoH only (build a DC around 1 feat only is a big mistake that few clerics understand). I can still provide up to 8/9 % AP boost every ~7-9 seconds using other DC feats, already tested. But if I think about 2.2k virtuous DCs...well...good luck. The nerf hits them, not me; here I see the lack of design. The teams will always need AP, but now you can be a faithful or a righteous with GoH...being virtuous is not relevant anymore.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Yup.. that needs to be addressed too! We have lost too much because of unthoughful designs. I still believe a change to GoH is good and badly needed but not a hard nerf, too many direct nerfs w/o thinking of the big picture this time round.
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
lol still wind up dying anyhow someway some how Unless you got the perfect party.............
I repeat my opinion that the changes were needed. I am sick and tired of running a dungeon with a permabubble paladin with a group that does not bother to think about strategy or tactics. It takes the fun of the challenge away for me.
I am also tired of not feeling wanted in groups as my main is a non-haste righteous DC.
On the subject of DC changes - it is good to have the description of Divine Glow match reality (although I would of course have preferred a fix to make it stack), but the power is still broken because it does not proc weapon enchants that it should proc (enchants that should proc on encounter use....the enchant descriptions do not say "...trigger on encounter use, other than the DC Divine Glow..."
3k CW and SW can out DPS 3.5k GWF in CN, is that I can said their OP and need nerf?
However the removal of the 20% damage buff, even as small as it is, worries me due to the particularly poor damage we deal if not Justice spec.
The other concern I have is holding agro. With DP it doesn't matter how well we hold agro, we are taking all the damage already. Without DP it starts mattering a lot and our ability to hold agro is quite weak. I'm fine with adjusting the dailies, but we need to be able to hold agro (and take back agro) better in these circumstances.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I'm willing to provide alternatives: "if you touch GoH in this way -> those are the consequences at larger scale on the overall DC design -> you can improve other feats". I don't live for GoH, but I would like to have a virtuous DC playing the role effectively (see damage mitigation as a potential direction for improvements).
I'm with @jazzfong: the devs should have a constructive discussion in the Temple forum.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
once again....why nerf Shield of Faith? even with current -50%, teammates sometimes still got 1 shot kill. -30% and increase healing? please don't make me laugh, my teammate is dead how can i heal?
Secondly, there should at least be a feat in the Bulwark tree to extend Divine Protector because as Bulwark is now, it's rather redundant as gaining temporary shields do very little in epic dungeons and shields are rather unnecessary when using Templar's Wrath and Shielding Strike. I could go full Justice and tank just fine, whereas going Bulwark, I lose a lot of dps.
Thirdly, with the bubble gone, there should be some compensation in the pvp department to make them viable.
Thank you...thank you...thank you for getting rid of this. The game badly needed a challenge boost.
For those that think the class will be destroyed. I laugh at you (l2p), other classes got hit harder and are/were still appreciated (CW, SW, premod6 GWF, etc). Stop QQing, 6sec is very long. Sure it's way shorter than 20 sec but 20seconds were infinitly long. Furthermore with the change in the ridiculous AP gain, no more perma-bubble and this was long due.
Perma bubble had to go but have you ever heard anybody complain about the other daily's (unless you took 3 pals into a dungeon and with the changes to healadin crawled trough on your knees).
AP gain is a joke and all other classes that can through daily's out of their ears are still around seeing a Gf fire off 3-4 daily's in a 10 sec period dubble exe etc etc is ok in your world then?
Time cap for daily's is a must if you want to keep calling them daily's now days they are more like encounters and (which mention earlier this new "bubble" will become only way worse then Gfs kv due to restrictions.
Capping all daily's that is game breaking to 1-1.5 min and you don't have to even think about the AP gain syndrome which is broken beyond already would be a much better solution.
Now let me know what makes the Paladin as a class so valid after these changes that they will be picked from the LFG channel or make people want to start one, until then I think I laugh at you and your l2p nonsense....
Why instead of creating more problems, changing current skills won't you fix bugged powers of cleric. I believe hastening light was implemented in mod7? if I'm not mistaken. and since then that skill hasn't been working...
I understand u had to nerf op, it was to be expected, but why at the cost of another class?
The cost of replacing equipment may be too big a blow to some players.
Killing Virtuous path does not serve in any way a new players and only irritates experienced players
Sorry for poor English is not my native language.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
How you find the game fun can hardly be the standard from which all other should play unless you own the game and my guess is you dont.
I think the problem for you is that you think you know what is best for others instead of playing the game as you want.
Taking Gf instead of Pal was and is an option so is running with the gear you find up to your standard for being challenging.
Gf having issues with being bypassed in lfg channel for certain (horrible balanced super hard hitting bosses) is one thing you dictating how others should find the game fun is a completely other and totally irrelevant to the issue at hand....