I figured a thread on this topic would go like this. I'm a melee enthusiast. I like Guardian Fighters, Great Weapon Fighters, Trickster Rogues, etc. However, I do agree. There is something seriously wrong with the present balance of classes. I don't believe ANY class needs to be nerfed (except for Trickster Rogues, and only in one way: if you manage to hit a hiding TR, that should negate their hiding status... or if they get too close--point-blank in your face, that should negate their hiding status. It's absolutely preposterous that they have an advantage of infallible stealth, about the same durability as a GWF, a reliable cone of damage/slow/stun that has a fabulous circumference and unapologetic amounts of damage that there simply is no countermeasure for... even though I like Trickster Rogues, as they are presently designed, the concept is offensively nepotic).
My contribution to this pool of tense, polarized ideas would be to improve the countermeasures of other classes. Hunter Rangers should be invulnerable when they active Marauder's Escape, Great Weapon Fighters should get SOMETHING on the defensive front (they do well offensively if they land their hits, but otherwise, sprint is nearly worthless, and against any hard-hitting class--other than hopefully controlling the target first--they kinda have to take it; which they generally can't {unless unreasonably geared}. Not nearly as well as the "too-balanced" Guardian Fighter or the indestructible Oathbound Paladin), Scourge Warlocks should have some kind of countermeasure too; just as sprint is virtually worthless, shadow walk isn't all that impressive either when it matters most (although since maintaining distance is important for pvp purposes, shadow walk serves the Warlock better than sprint serves the GWF.. considering they need to close distances).
As it stands Guardian Fighters can take hits, are difficult to control, and they can dish out extreme damage within windows of opportunity. Extreme damage that is very difficult to do anything about (charging attacks that disable, followed by more extreme damage). Trickster Rogues can go invisible, stay invisible, do their silly knife throwing until their window of opportunity to do extreme damage emerges, of which they can meekly walk up to the helpless target, drop a sphere of "too-bad-too-sad" and dish out their daily, ending the fight before it began. Oathbound Paladins are so frustratingly durable, that it often just isn't worth fighting them; it can be done, but man it's hardly what you'd call a fight. Control Wizards, as much as they are reputed to complain, have the benefit of maintaining diistances far easier than a Scourge Warlock could.
Inter-balance vs. intra-balance.
Neverwinter woefully lacks in inter-balance. The design of these classes serves them in independent content going against the predictable environment of the computer vs. human. But when it is human vs. human, they don't balance well at all. The relationship of it is like rock-paper-scissors-nuke-howitzer-cthulhu. I've said it before in another thread, but the worst affect of this present situation is not the tears of the frustrated. Who cares. I don't. I'm not complaining about losing---after all I don't always lose---I'm complaining about the lack of variety and the lack of room for experimentation.
Guardian Fighters are almost sure to go Conqueror feat tree if they're going to pvp. They're almost certain to take Anvil, Bull Rush, etc. This is unfortunate. Again, I don't think classes need to be nerfed. There needs to be better countermeasures, more attractive skill options that offer a variety of benefits for a variety of situations. Classes in Neverwinter are simple arithmetic: linear, dull, short syntax of operations. What if instead of there being 3 holy-amazing skills/spells that are the only sensible choice if you're going to pvp, there were 20 holy-amazing skills/spells that are options if you're going to pvp? If there were enough options for all the classes, where the decision is not so opaque and typical, then it'd immediately rectify the linear outcomes of pvp by providing a deeper pool of possibility as to what you may or may not encounter,
So again, I don't think nerfing is the answer for any class (except for TR's, sorry folks, I stand by that statement that they're HAMSTER based on their present design). Instead, I'd say glorify the options. Improve the lackluster selection of skills/feats. Make it so that you can never be too sure what will come next. And yes, that will introduce a whole new level of complaining. Because the heavily invested player in one particular style of play may not be able to handle someone who came up with a different style of play: and they will say that that design is broken. But if done right, that argument would hold no credibility if there were so many ways to deal with the "broken" option.
There shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all approach for any class. And that's what it is right now. Pick those sacred feats and skills in certain classes and that size will fit for anything you come up against. How dull. How terribly dull.
I figured a thread on this topic would go like this. I'm a melee enthusiast. I like Guardian Fighters, Great Weapon Fighters, Trickster Rogues, etc. However, I do agree. There is something seriously wrong with the present balance of classes. I don't believe ANY class needs to be nerfed (except for Trickster Rogues, and only in one way: if you manage to hit a hiding TR, that should negate their hiding status... or if they get too close--point-blank in your face, that should negate their hiding status. It's absolutely preposterous that they have an advantage of infallible stealth, about the same durability as a GWF, a reliable cone of damage/slow/stun that has a fabulous circumference and unapologetic amounts of damage that there simply is no countermeasure for... even though I like Trickster Rogues, as they are presently designed, the concept is offensively nepotic).
My contribution to this pool of tense, polarized ideas would be to improve the countermeasures of other classes. Hunter Rangers should be invulnerable when they active Marauder's Escape, Great Weapon Fighters should get SOMETHING on the defensive front (they do well offensively if they land their hits, but otherwise, sprint is nearly worthless, and against any hard-hitting class--other than hopefully controlling the target first--they kinda have to take it; which they generally can't {unless unreasonably geared}. Not nearly as well as the "too-balanced" Guardian Fighter or the indestructible Oathbound Paladin), Scourge Warlocks should have some kind of countermeasure too; just as sprint is virtually worthless, shadow walk isn't all that impressive either when it matters most (although since maintaining distance is important for pvp purposes, shadow walk serves the Warlock better than sprint serves the GWF.. considering they need to close distances).
As it stands Guardian Fighters can take hits, are difficult to control, and they can dish out extreme damage within windows of opportunity. Extreme damage that is very difficult to do anything about (charging attacks that disable, followed by more extreme damage). Trickster Rogues can go invisible, stay invisible, do their silly knife throwing until their window of opportunity to do extreme damage emerges, of which they can meekly walk up to the helpless target, drop a sphere of "too-bad-too-sad" and dish out their daily, ending the fight before it began. Oathbound Paladins are so frustratingly durable, that it often just isn't worth fighting them; it can be done, but man it's hardly what you'd call a fight. Control Wizards, as much as they are reputed to complain, have the benefit of maintaining diistances far easier than a Scourge Warlock could.
Inter-balance vs. intra-balance.
Neverwinter woefully lacks in inter-balance. The design of these classes serves them in independent content going against the predictable environment of the computer vs. human. But when it is human vs. human, they don't balance well at all. The relationship of it is like rock-paper-scissors-nuke-howitzer-cthulhu. I've said it before in another thread, but the worst affect of this present situation is not the tears of the frustrated. Who cares. I don't. I'm not complaining about losing---after all I don't always lose---I'm complaining about the lack of variety and the lack of room for experimentation.
Guardian Fighters are almost sure to go Conqueror feat tree if they're going to pvp. They're almost certain to take Anvil, Bull Rush, etc. This is unfortunate. Again, I don't think classes need to be nerfed. There needs to be better countermeasures, more attractive skill options that offer a variety of benefits for a variety of situations. Classes in Neverwinter are simple arithmetic: linear, dull, short syntax of operations. What if instead of there being 3 holy-amazing skills/spells that are the only sensible choice if you're going to pvp, there were 20 holy-amazing skills/spells that are options if you're going to pvp? If there were enough options for all the classes, where the decision is not so opaque and typical, then it'd immediately rectify the linear outcomes of pvp by providing a deeper pool of possibility as to what you may or may not encounter,
So again, I don't think nerfing is the answer for any class (except for TR's, sorry folks, I stand by that statement that they're HAMSTER based on their present design). Instead, I'd say glorify the options. Improve the lackluster selection of skills/feats. Make it so that you can never be too sure what will come next. And yes, that will introduce a whole new level of complaining. Because the heavily invested player in one particular style of play may not be able to handle someone who came up with a different style of play: and they will say that that design is broken. But if done right, that argument would hold no credibility if there were so many ways to deal with the "broken" option.
There shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all approach for any class. And that's what it is right now. Pick those sacred feats and skills in certain classes and that size will fit for anything you come up against. How dull. How terribly dull.
Firstly I like this post. Second there is some form of experimentation, but it can only be found in BID by groups who are just trying stuff out. I think the main problem in pvp we have now is that we can't pick who we play against. I wish we had a way to have a lobby where we can wait for another premade to accept our pvp challenge, I'd bet we get different strategies if this was available.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
All classes have mechanics to dodge, ITC, block vor shield burst damage, right?
I do not see any point why a TR or some other classes are the ones who should judge about this topic.
F.e. TR is : Dodge Dodge roll roll, deflect deflect, ITC, invisible
Not the best target for a GF Conquerer to do his onerotation, right?
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
Erhm no, thats just lies. Sure the GF burst dmg is high, but IF you crybabies getting it nerfed the class will be useless again. And some SWs heals like a MF and deal insane dmg. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing.
ehrm, thats just lies. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing !....
The GF with a PVP orientated build do exactly what I told you , the ones like you suck on their class as allways, sry. In case you do not run that special tree and have the stats these guys have, just stfu, go troll somewhere else, its not an a scrub to judge about a topic he never will experience with his poor PVP toon. Maybe there is somthing buggy in that tree, I can´t tell, some figured out how it works, some don´t (like you). I never wanted to say a 2,8k IL GF twoshots a 4k+ warlock, no, but he surely does onerotate 3k+, as I experienced from a 2,8 k 1 vs 1 Him only stats like 6k arp, 5k crit 15k power, not that much Me buffed 5k defence, 26% deflect at fully spark, p negation, 113k HP, >2k tenacity, >20% Lifesteal and 60% DR from Dread Theft....onerotation at full buffs And for the smart ones: How do you get behind a target to cc him, if that target snipes you in no time the moment you get in range having that loaded cannon (AoD)? not that easy. As I said, too many classes that do not have any right to judge about that topic, and I also do not want any class being nerfed beyond uselessness, because he onerotetes one class that lacks in defence mechanics. Going PVP you will see the following situation very frequently GF doesn´t target the TR "roll-roll-roll" not the DC "0-0-0-0-0-" not the OP .... not that dodging CW with his mega AoE who disables everyone for ages and repells you to nirvana no he targets the warlock, in case he is smart, easy to understand why, I would do the same
Il reverse revolver's reasoning (similar to thousands of posts we've read everytime an overperforming mechanic or aspect of a class needed a rebalance):
If a player can't think about a better way to balance his main class, and thinks that his only option is to rely on something broken/ overperforming, then may be he is not that good at playing his class.
So if a GF can't figure out that his class can use a rebalance with a mix of burst damage tone down+ buff to survivability (main attribute of a tank class) and utility to compensate, then may be he is not that good at playing the class.
Do you think that your only option as a PvP GF is to be able to one-rotate enemies? Can't you propose a mix of changes that would make your class, overall, more balanced?
All classes have mechanics to dodge, ITC, block vor shield burst damage, right?
I do not see any point why a TR or some other classes are the ones who should judge about this topic.
F.e. TR is : Dodge Dodge roll roll, deflect deflect, ITC, invisible
Not the best target for a GF Conquerer to do his onerotation, right?
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
Erhm no, thats just lies. Sure the GF burst dmg is high, but IF you crybabies getting it nerfed the class will be useless again. And some SWs heals like a MF and deal insane dmg. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing.
ehrm, thats just lies. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing !....
The GF with a PVP orientated build do exactly what I told you , the ones like you suck on their class as allways, sry. In case you do not run that special tree and have the stats these guys have, just stfu, go troll somewhere else, its not an a scrub to judge about a topic he never will experience with his poor PVP toon. Maybe there is somthing buggy in that tree, I can´t tell, some figured out how it works, some don´t (like you). I never wanted to say a 2,8k IL GF twoshots a 4k+ warlock, no, but he surely does onerotate 3k+, as I experienced from a 2,8 k 1 vs 1 Him only stats like 6k arp, 5k crit 15k power, not that much Me buffed 5k defence, 26% deflect at fully spark, p negation, 113k HP, >2k tenacity, >20% Lifesteal and 60% DR from Dread Theft....onerotation at full buffs And for the smart ones: How do you get behind a target to cc him, if that target snipes you in no time the moment you get in range having that loaded cannon (AoD)? not that easy. As I said, too many classes that do not have any right to judge about that topic, and I also do not want any class being nerfed beyond uselessness, because he onerotetes one class that lacks in defence mechanics. Going PVP you will see the following situation very frequently GF doesn´t target the TR "roll-roll-roll" not the DC "0-0-0-0-0-" not the OP .... not that dodging CW with his mega AoE who disables everyone for ages and repells you to nirvana no he targets the warlock, in case he is smart, easy to understand why, I would do the same
I wield my GF pretty darn good in pvp, and been putting plenty of time on the ptr latly to figure stuff out whats might be broken about the GF and the dmg. But what ever, hit me up ingame anytime so we can fight
Il reverse revolver's reasoning (similar to thousands of posts we've read everytime an overperforming mechanic or aspect of a class needed a rebalance):
If a player can't think about a better way to balance his main class, and thinks that his only option is to rely on something broken/ overperforming, then may be he is not that good at playing his class.
So if a GF can't figure out that his class can use a rebalance with a mix of burst damage tone down+ buff to survivability (main attribute of a tank class) and utility to compensate, then may be he is not that good at playing the class.
Do you think that your only option as a PvP GF is to be able to one-rotate enemies? Can't you propose a mix of changes that would make your class, overall, more balanced?
Sir may i ask i you ever done a premade latly? I guess the answer is not. IF the GF dsnt have burst and time his stuff with other teammates, things dsnt die. And god forbid if both team has a OP, the match might be over with 0 deaths in total and only. But i can be frank and say that GWF and GF are prolly the best dmg dealer atm, while cw/hr still are good supports. SWs can be rly handy to have with u to for some serious dmg.
All classes have mechanics to dodge, ITC, block vor shield burst damage, right?
I do not see any point why a TR or some other classes are the ones who should judge about this topic.
F.e. TR is : Dodge Dodge roll roll, deflect deflect, ITC, invisible
Not the best target for a GF Conquerer to do his onerotation, right?
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
Erhm no, thats just lies. Sure the GF burst dmg is high, but IF you crybabies getting it nerfed the class will be useless again. And some SWs heals like a MF and deal insane dmg. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing.
ehrm, thats just lies. I think u just have a bad build, low gs and might not be very good at what u are doing !....
The GF with a PVP orientated build do exactly what I told you , the ones like you suck on their class as allways, sry. In case you do not run that special tree and have the stats these guys have, just stfu, go troll somewhere else, its not an a scrub to judge about a topic he never will experience with his poor PVP toon. Maybe there is somthing buggy in that tree, I can´t tell, some figured out how it works, some don´t (like you). I never wanted to say a 2,8k IL GF twoshots a 4k+ warlock, no, but he surely does onerotate 3k+, as I experienced from a 2,8 k 1 vs 1 Him only stats like 6k arp, 5k crit 15k power, not that much Me buffed 5k defence, 26% deflect at fully spark, p negation, 113k HP, >2k tenacity, >20% Lifesteal and 60% DR from Dread Theft....onerotation at full buffs And for the smart ones: How do you get behind a target to cc him, if that target snipes you in no time the moment you get in range having that loaded cannon (AoD)? not that easy. As I said, too many classes that do not have any right to judge about that topic, and I also do not want any class being nerfed beyond uselessness, because he onerotetes one class that lacks in defence mechanics. Going PVP you will see the following situation very frequently GF doesn´t target the TR "roll-roll-roll" not the DC "0-0-0-0-0-" not the OP .... not that dodging CW with his mega AoE who disables everyone for ages and repells you to nirvana no he targets the warlock, in case he is smart, easy to understand why, I would do the same
I wield my GF pretty darn good in pvp, and been putting plenty of time on the ptr latly to figure stuff out whats might be broken about the GF and the dmg. But what ever, hit me up ingame anytime so we can fight
Question Nr. 1: what kind of class is a GF? Question Nr. 2: is it really a "lie" saying GF-conquerer onerotates easily lots of classes even on a 3k level?? Since you say you do good in PVP, how much do you deal with one AoD, i will give you some numbers in case you don´t know exactly Question Nr. 3: in case a tanking class deals the highest burst ingame like a "rocket launcher" from distance with one encounter, what exactly do you think a "squishy class" should deal with his encounter ... 300k?
I accept any kind of objective feedback, but I do not like these tons of hypocrite "troll-comments" Some of these high geared GF that do pugging, having average K/D ratio like 20:1, really get nasty and insulting being once killed from these "handy classes" you talk about I never do, no time, even when my K/D ratio is 1:10 , only moment i talk in chat is facing 4k+ PVP player from BTG or EoA or any other known guild that uses frequently cowardring against <3k toons, redicules imo I really hope you are not one of these guys? In case you are ........ (censored)
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
This is what i meant when i said lies, NO GF 1shots a Sw with some tenacity. And on equal IL its a pretty even fight tbh, i fought some really though ones.
And i do hope you realise that conqs are the dps tree right? And a GF goes down rly fast in a 2on1 if u compare to many other classes.
Yeah i have max IL, but no i dont use drains or broken rings, and i despise everyone that use em.
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
This is what i meant when i said lies, NO GF 1shots a Sw with some tenacity. And on equal IL its a pretty even fight tbh, i fought some really though ones.
And i do hope you realise that conqs are the dps tree right? And a GF goes down rly fast in a 2on1 if u compare to many other classes.
Yeah i have max IL, but no i dont use drains or broken rings, and i despise everyone that use em.
I think you are missinformed since 150k+ crits with AoD from your class against BIS warlocks is no fairy tale
Actual Quote from BIS warlock: "I'm still getting hit for 167k by one GUARDIAN FIGHTER's ability (wish we could do this) by Guardian fighters through Shadowslip" If you are interested in the full thread I can link it, but I think you do know everything about it "en detail" but prefer going on neglecting things Useless discussion, as I stated at the beginning of the thread, since 90% troll factor in this forum
Every conquerer (it is this one build) one- or twoshot most warlocks with ease, they even do not need BIS (thats the guys with 150k crits from one encounter), 2.8IL is sufficient, some power, some arp and you onerotate a warlock him having all defences up, even his 60% DR-laser-beam-buff.
So many opinions from player that run classes which are not affected most time...
This is what i meant when i said lies, NO GF 1shots a Sw with some tenacity. And on equal IL its a pretty even fight tbh, i fought some really though ones.
And i do hope you realise that conqs are the dps tree right? And a GF goes down rly fast in a 2on1 if u compare to many other classes.
Yeah i have max IL, but no i dont use drains or broken rings, and i despise everyone that use em.
I think you are missinformed since 150k+ crits with AoD from your class against BIS warlocks is no fairy tale
Actual Quote from BIS warlock: "I'm still getting hit for 167k by one GUARDIAN FIGHTER's ability (wish we could do this) by Guardian fighters through Shadowslip" If you are interested in the full thread I can link it, but I think you do know everything about it "en detail" but prefer going on neglecting things Useless discussion, as I stated at the beginning of the thread, since 90% troll factor in this forum
Yeah its twice the dmg when enemy is below 40% HP... i wounder how that makes it a 1 shot...
75k againsta BIS char...much more against a less gears, ergo oneshot warlock has a similar power -->Killing flame ..and a feature in the "damage tree"-morderous flame ...but I never heared of any crit near 167k against a GWF? tbh it´s a power i never use , nor spend points at because it does "kick in" the moment the target is near death like 30% or less , spawning a silly puppet that get´s onehittet in a second in case I cast it on a GF with , let´s say 60% health, i guess it would deal about 10k damage crit feated 13k? can´t say exactly, but laughable for sure its a finisher that finishes targets near dead but deals redicules damage otherwise, nothing morderous about it nah this game is rotten to the bone, noone will deny it, but in threads like this one you will find lots of ppl who defend this rotten HAMSTER or just like it
yeah its 2 encounters, GWF can deal over 75K with 2 encounters so can CWs. But whats your reason, how will u make GF, more online with others chars? And btw u do realise its pure class canon build right? Clonky u play GWF lol u have no right to complain about anything : )
Clonky i have 4.2K IL on my GF and my GWF and i know both of the classes very well, i dont use drain or stupid rings either. But to no use Negation or fey in pvp as GWF u will be a dead GWF. Its just HAMSTER to not use it, maybe ITF needs a tweak to not give the full buff. And GWF stackingsystem needs to be change.
But yeah been in the game since beta, and played competive pvp. And to argue with clonky or shintebux feels just odd since i have no idea who they are ingame..
all I see is a useless thread with useless comments, driving some of you to allways and everywhere hang out their GS or knowledge NWO and especially NWO-PVP is a game with poor designed classes on two maps since launch more or less, unbalanced, near dead, a PVP system not anyone really want to call a contesting kind of gameplay as you can experience every day, since classes and gear implemented is so endlessly broken ... nearly as broken and silly as the matchmaking. I am pretty sure the most talented PVP-player left this game since long, if they ever take aprt in this ... i can´t call it PVP, sry. btw I do no premade never, I stay on the "dark side" pugging together with "Kitty-Cat" and "Terminator" or "Dark Devil" in blue gear, every day, against maxed chars 4k+ running in semi premades having the "easy way", and I never get personal ingame but my ignorelist gets longer and longer since lots of PVP´ler in NWO are some kind of screwed in mind i fear my name is Quallo ingame, 3k warlock, and yours? Did not read it anywhere, since you ask for.
thats my last DOM I translated some of these logs, hope you understand the essence:
Crit! GF 3,5k deals to TR 3,5k with AoD “ 0 (175186) Crit! GF dals to TR with lolset “ 0 (18248) Physischer Schaden. -->thats why morenthar is not that much affected... morenthar you are a TR btw. you avoid near all damage
GF 3,5k hits TR 3,5k with Bullcharge for 64725 (63623) thats when Morenthar is not dodging, rolling , ITC or whatever, just hiding, happens very rare
Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with AoD 1783 (44566) damage... not that much, right? Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with BC 11042 (47937) Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with lolset 1323 (5743)
Crit! 2,8k TR hits GF 3,5 in the back -->SE 66045 he had to sneak up and really did a good job 50% to zero
3,5 GF hits 2,8 GWF with BC 41345 (67454) full burningset >2k tenacity 3,5k GF finishes 2,8k GWF with Aod 139880 (195441) meh, hurts
the key issue of this thread was: Is the GF the predestinated class that should have most kills and be the class that onerotates everthing? Morenthar.... please go for another thread, you are annoying in every aspect.
Sir may i ask i you ever done a premade latly? I guess the answer is not. IF the GF dsnt have burst and time his stuff with other teammates, things dsnt die. And god forbid if both team has a OP, the match might be over with 0 deaths in total and only. But i can be frank and say that GWF and GF are prolly the best dmg dealer atm, while cw/hr still are good supports. SWs can be rly handy to have with u to for some serious dmg.
It's a larger issue @ayroux already discussed in another thread about excessive healing (Gift of Faith included) and bubbledins making BiS/almost BiS players immortal.
The are all aspects of the same issue:
- extreme healing (drowned weapons+gift of faith+mythic wheel+monster LS at BiS levels/ SH boon) - extreme damage (GWF fully stacked monster damage, GF even more dangerous monster burst, and i'd add BiS SWs) - extreme tankiness/ immortality aka Bubbledins - extreme control (HR permarooters locking down enemies in a way we've never seen in this game in 8 modules, even from the controller class CWs) - extreme powers (example: TR oneshotting builds "exploiting" the ability to turn SE into a "win" move against 2 classes, just focusing on buffing its damage to extreme levels with, basically, no limits) - extreme matchmaking (1.8k players mixed with 4k toons, 2k players against 3k players, and no real team balance because there's no control over half-premades joining PuG PvP)
On the other side, most paths and powers and aspects of each class are "underperforming", to the point that every class just "settled" with the thought that they "need" that other "overperforming" aspect they got, to survive this "world of extremes" that current PvP is. I need permarooting, i need one-rotating, i need immortality, in need super-healing, i need the 150k damage "i win" (in most cases) SE move. Which, don't get me wrong: it's all true. You need that NOW to compete.
But if nobody EVER tries to discuss how to achieve overall balance seriously, nothing will ever change. If feedback is only "nerf that class "tool", nothing will change.
The truth is that a wide spectrum of changes must be made ALTOGETHER to the whole PvP, if you want balance, and that most classes require a mix of tone-down to the unbalanced aspects they got, TOGETHER with a buff to everything that is underperforming.
The only class that, right now, seems to have a good mix of balance (nothing really overperforming, many effective tools both offensive and defensive) are CWs, in my opinion. Every other class is relying on "extremes".
This is not balance, because while extremes can "cancel each others" (example: we need one-rotating powah to face excessive healing), in reality it turns out in "extreme situations" that prevent fights from being really fair. So if i can't one-rotate hard enough, my enemy is immortal. If i can't heal up/ tank enough, the enemy wipes me out in the blink of an eye. It's all or nothing. You're either immortal or you die in a second. You one-rotate or you can't scratch the enemy.
I hear you Pando, i am not saying that the state of pvp is good atm, its the worst we have ever seen imo. Freshour made a nice post last night and laying out almost everything that is wrong with current pvp, dont know if he added SH boons tho, cus these shoulnt even work in pvp imo its to much stats.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Please leave the GFs alone, you will see from the below image they hit like a noodle
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My contribution to this pool of tense, polarized ideas would be to improve the countermeasures of other classes. Hunter Rangers should be invulnerable when they active Marauder's Escape, Great Weapon Fighters should get SOMETHING on the defensive front (they do well offensively if they land their hits, but otherwise, sprint is nearly worthless, and against any hard-hitting class--other than hopefully controlling the target first--they kinda have to take it; which they generally can't {unless unreasonably geared}. Not nearly as well as the "too-balanced" Guardian Fighter or the indestructible Oathbound Paladin), Scourge Warlocks should have some kind of countermeasure too; just as sprint is virtually worthless, shadow walk isn't all that impressive either when it matters most (although since maintaining distance is important for pvp purposes, shadow walk serves the Warlock better than sprint serves the GWF.. considering they need to close distances).
As it stands Guardian Fighters can take hits, are difficult to control, and they can dish out extreme damage within windows of opportunity. Extreme damage that is very difficult to do anything about (charging attacks that disable, followed by more extreme damage). Trickster Rogues can go invisible, stay invisible, do their silly knife throwing until their window of opportunity to do extreme damage emerges, of which they can meekly walk up to the helpless target, drop a sphere of "too-bad-too-sad" and dish out their daily, ending the fight before it began. Oathbound Paladins are so frustratingly durable, that it often just isn't worth fighting them; it can be done, but man it's hardly what you'd call a fight. Control Wizards, as much as they are reputed to complain, have the benefit of maintaining diistances far easier than a Scourge Warlock could.
Inter-balance vs. intra-balance.
Neverwinter woefully lacks in inter-balance. The design of these classes serves them in independent content going against the predictable environment of the computer vs. human. But when it is human vs. human, they don't balance well at all. The relationship of it is like rock-paper-scissors-nuke-howitzer-cthulhu. I've said it before in another thread, but the worst affect of this present situation is not the tears of the frustrated. Who cares. I don't. I'm not complaining about losing---after all I don't always lose---I'm complaining about the lack of variety and the lack of room for experimentation.
Guardian Fighters are almost sure to go Conqueror feat tree if they're going to pvp. They're almost certain to take Anvil, Bull Rush, etc. This is unfortunate. Again, I don't think classes need to be nerfed. There needs to be better countermeasures, more attractive skill options that offer a variety of benefits for a variety of situations. Classes in Neverwinter are simple arithmetic: linear, dull, short syntax of operations. What if instead of there being 3 holy-amazing skills/spells that are the only sensible choice if you're going to pvp, there were 20 holy-amazing skills/spells that are options if you're going to pvp? If there were enough options for all the classes, where the decision is not so opaque and typical, then it'd immediately rectify the linear outcomes of pvp by providing a deeper pool of possibility as to what you may or may not encounter,
So again, I don't think nerfing is the answer for any class (except for TR's, sorry folks, I stand by that statement that they're HAMSTER based on their present design). Instead, I'd say glorify the options. Improve the lackluster selection of skills/feats. Make it so that you can never be too sure what will come next. And yes, that will introduce a whole new level of complaining. Because the heavily invested player in one particular style of play may not be able to handle someone who came up with a different style of play: and they will say that that design is broken. But if done right, that argument would hold no credibility if there were so many ways to deal with the "broken" option.
There shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all approach for any class. And that's what it is right now. Pick those sacred feats and skills in certain classes and that size will fit for anything you come up against. How dull. How terribly dull.
The GF with a PVP orientated build do exactly what I told you , the ones like you suck on their class as allways, sry.
In case you do not run that special tree and have the stats these guys have, just stfu, go troll somewhere else, its not an a scrub to judge about a topic he never will experience with his poor PVP toon.
Maybe there is somthing buggy in that tree, I can´t tell, some figured out how it works, some don´t (like you).
I never wanted to say a 2,8k IL GF twoshots a 4k+ warlock, no, but he surely does onerotate 3k+, as I experienced from a 2,8 k 1 vs 1
Him only stats like 6k arp, 5k crit 15k power, not that much
Me buffed 5k defence, 26% deflect at fully spark, p negation, 113k HP, >2k tenacity, >20% Lifesteal and 60% DR from Dread Theft....onerotation at full buffs
And for the smart ones: How do you get behind a target to cc him, if that target snipes you in no time the moment you get in range having that loaded cannon (AoD)? not that easy.
As I said, too many classes that do not have any right to judge about that topic, and I also do not want any class being nerfed beyond uselessness, because he onerotetes one class that lacks in defence mechanics.
Going PVP you will see the following situation very frequently
GF doesn´t target the TR "roll-roll-roll" not the DC "0-0-0-0-0-" not the OP .... not that dodging CW with his mega AoE who disables everyone for ages and repells you to nirvana
no he targets the warlock, in case he is smart, easy to understand why, I would do the same
If a player can't think about a better way to balance his main class, and thinks that his only option is to rely on something broken/ overperforming, then may be he is not that good at playing his class.
So if a GF can't figure out that his class can use a rebalance with a mix of burst damage tone down+ buff to survivability (main attribute of a tank class) and utility to compensate, then may be he is not that good at playing the class.
Do you think that your only option as a PvP GF is to be able to one-rotate enemies?
Can't you propose a mix of changes that would make your class, overall, more balanced?
I wield my GF pretty darn good in pvp, and been putting plenty of time on the ptr latly to figure stuff out whats might be broken about the GF and the dmg. But what ever, hit me up ingame anytime so we can fight
But i can be frank and say that GWF and GF are prolly the best dmg dealer atm, while cw/hr still are good supports. SWs can be rly handy to have with u to for some serious dmg.
Question Nr. 2: is it really a "lie" saying GF-conquerer onerotates easily lots of classes even on a 3k level??
Since you say you do good in PVP, how much do you deal with one AoD, i will give you some numbers in case you don´t know exactly
Question Nr. 3: in case a tanking class deals the highest burst ingame like a "rocket launcher" from distance with one encounter, what exactly do you think a "squishy class" should deal with his encounter ... 300k?
I accept any kind of objective feedback, but I do not like these tons of hypocrite "troll-comments"
Some of these high geared GF that do pugging, having average K/D ratio like 20:1, really get nasty and insulting being once killed from these "handy classes" you talk about
I never do, no time, even when my K/D ratio is 1:10 , only moment i talk in chat is facing 4k+ PVP player from BTG or EoA or any other known guild that uses frequently cowardring against <3k toons, redicules imo
I really hope you are not one of these guys? In case you are ........ (censored)
And i do hope you realise that conqs are the dps tree right? And a GF goes down rly fast in a 2on1 if u compare to many other classes.
Yeah i have max IL, but no i dont use drains or broken rings, and i despise everyone that use em.
Actual Quote from BIS warlock: "I'm still getting hit for 167k by one GUARDIAN FIGHTER's ability (wish we could do this) by Guardian fighters through Shadowslip"
If you are interested in the full thread I can link it, but I think you do know everything about it "en detail" but prefer going on neglecting things
Useless discussion, as I stated at the beginning of the thread, since 90% troll factor in this forum
warlock has a similar power -->Killing flame ..and a feature in the "damage tree"-morderous flame
...but I never heared of any crit near 167k against a GWF?
tbh it´s a power i never use , nor spend points at because it does "kick in" the moment the target is near death like 30% or less , spawning a silly puppet that get´s onehittet in a second
in case I cast it on a GF with , let´s say 60% health, i guess it would deal about 10k damage crit feated 13k? can´t say exactly, but laughable for sure
its a finisher that finishes targets near dead but deals redicules damage otherwise, nothing morderous about it
nah this game is rotten to the bone, noone will deny it, but in threads like this one you will find lots of ppl who defend this rotten HAMSTER or just like it
But whats your reason, how will u make GF, more online with others chars? And btw u do realise its pure class canon build right? Clonky u play GWF lol u have no right to complain about anything : )
But to no use Negation or fey in pvp as GWF u will be a dead GWF. Its just HAMSTER to not use it, maybe ITF needs a tweak to not give the full buff. And GWF stackingsystem needs to be change.
But yeah been in the game since beta, and played competive pvp. And to argue with clonky or shintebux feels just odd since i have no idea who they are ingame..
NWO and especially NWO-PVP is a game with poor designed classes on two maps since launch more or less,
unbalanced, near dead, a PVP system not anyone really want to call a contesting kind of gameplay as you can experience every day, since classes and gear implemented is so endlessly broken ... nearly as broken and silly as the matchmaking.
I am pretty sure the most talented PVP-player left this game since long, if they ever take aprt in this ... i can´t call it PVP, sry.
btw I do no premade never, I stay on the "dark side" pugging together with "Kitty-Cat" and "Terminator" or "Dark Devil" in blue gear, every day, against maxed chars 4k+ running in semi premades having the "easy way", and I never get personal ingame but my ignorelist gets longer and longer since lots of PVP´ler in NWO are some kind of screwed in mind i fear
my name is Quallo ingame, 3k warlock, and yours? Did not read it anywhere, since you ask for.
thats my last DOM I translated some of these logs, hope you understand the essence:
Crit! GF 3,5k deals to TR 3,5k with AoD “ 0 (175186)
Crit! GF dals to TR with lolset “ 0 (18248) Physischer Schaden.
-->thats why morenthar is not that much affected... morenthar you are a TR btw. you avoid near all damage
GF 3,5k hits TR 3,5k with Bullcharge for 64725 (63623)
thats when Morenthar is not dodging, rolling , ITC or whatever, just hiding, happens very rare
Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with AoD 1783 (44566) damage... not that much, right?
Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with BC 11042 (47937)
Crit! 4,2k GF deals to 3,5k GF with lolset 1323 (5743)
Crit! 2,8k TR hits GF 3,5 in the back -->SE 66045 he had to sneak up and really did a good job 50% to zero
3,5 GF hits 2,8 GWF with BC 41345 (67454) full burningset >2k tenacity
3,5k GF finishes 2,8k GWF with Aod 139880 (195441) meh, hurts
the key issue of this thread was: Is the GF the predestinated class that should have most kills and be the class that onerotates everthing?
Morenthar.... please go for another thread, you are annoying in every aspect.
The are all aspects of the same issue:
- extreme healing (drowned weapons+gift of faith+mythic wheel+monster LS at BiS levels/ SH boon)
- extreme damage (GWF fully stacked monster damage, GF even more dangerous monster burst, and i'd add BiS SWs)
- extreme tankiness/ immortality aka Bubbledins
- extreme control (HR permarooters locking down enemies in a way we've never seen in this game in 8 modules, even from the controller class CWs)
- extreme powers (example: TR oneshotting builds "exploiting" the ability to turn SE into a "win" move against 2 classes, just focusing on buffing its damage to extreme levels with, basically, no limits)
- extreme matchmaking (1.8k players mixed with 4k toons, 2k players against 3k players, and no real team balance because there's no control over half-premades joining PuG PvP)
On the other side, most paths and powers and aspects of each class are "underperforming", to the point that every class just "settled" with the thought that they "need" that other "overperforming" aspect they got, to survive this "world of extremes" that current PvP is.
I need permarooting, i need one-rotating, i need immortality, in need super-healing, i need the 150k damage "i win" (in most cases) SE move.
Which, don't get me wrong: it's all true. You need that NOW to compete.
But if nobody EVER tries to discuss how to achieve overall balance seriously, nothing will ever change. If feedback is only "nerf that class "tool", nothing will change.
The truth is that a wide spectrum of changes must be made ALTOGETHER to the whole PvP, if you want balance, and that most classes require a mix of tone-down to the unbalanced aspects they got, TOGETHER with a buff to everything that is underperforming.
The only class that, right now, seems to have a good mix of balance (nothing really overperforming, many effective tools both offensive and defensive) are CWs, in my opinion.
Every other class is relying on "extremes".
This is not balance, because while extremes can "cancel each others" (example: we need one-rotating powah to face excessive healing), in reality it turns out in "extreme situations" that prevent fights from being really fair. So if i can't one-rotate hard enough, my enemy is immortal. If i can't heal up/ tank enough, the enemy wipes me out in the blink of an eye. It's all or nothing.
You're either immortal or you die in a second. You one-rotate or you can't scratch the enemy.
Which is a bad idea of balance.
/sarcasm
Guess I forgot the opening sarcasm tag.
Guess i forgot the opening sarcasm tag.
TIME ATTACKER ATTACKTYPE DAMAGETYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL FLANK BASEDAMAGE EFFECTIVENESS
7:26:25 PM XxxxxTxxLxxxd Anvil of Doom: Flank Physical XXXE 115121.0 True None True 236832.0 48.6 %