The nerf thread continues ,by posting the same 4 (four) people endless lies ,propaganda and misinformation.
Someone questioned me about the GF DnD classification.Well you like it or not GF is a preassigned set of Fighter class and its named Guardian Fighter. Leader /Controller as the former head on designer of Nw stated. "tank" this ,and "tank" that,and the "tank" blah blah blah...
Tank:
other type of tank:
Guardian Fighter :
Let's go to the essense :
Numbers can be misleading you post an 115k Anvil of Doom. But we do not know if that Anvil was a lone encounter or was the result of 2 or even three encounters. The GF coud used ITF+KC (both utility) and then anvil.Also the enemy toon must be below 40% of its hp. So an entire rotation of a well specced DPS GF(glass cannon outside of block) 115k.
Now tell me all of you how much is the entire rotation of a same IL CW? entagle/repel/disintegrate? Plus your never ending dots and procs ?200k ?300k? Plus you have 90s tange and autoaim.
If GF is so an easy class why 15 or 20 people play it? why you don't play it but instead choose to play your pyjamas Wizzards?
GF must aim of every of its encounter and be in extremely close range.The ranged toons must not complain at all.You were caught of fguard not 1 second but 2 or 4.
But the slow reflexes and the easy games are a characteristic of pvp Cw class cause that's how they learned to play,easy way. Proof:
CW fires three encounters up to 7.02 GF none,cause Gf is melee range. At 7.09 Cw has fired 5 encounters while Gf none.At that point Cw comes into Gf range ,Gf bull charges him for...ehm...4,8k damage.(where are your 50k Bulls you liars? )
Gf in succession fires of his daily against the shielded and neg proned Cw for 1,2k damage.yes the fearsome daily.
Cw is slow Gf catches him up again 3 att wills including the third ,notoriously slow third crushing surge.Cw still there then anvil.The hits are three at wills 7k,6k,5k ,plus an AoD 14,7k damage.The rest of the damage is of GF's team mate the Cw.
Cw ignores the Gf completely and goes against the enemy Cw and fires 2 encounters. They kill the Cw go against the loned GF and then liquid his health-in 3 (thre ) seconds.Considering the Gf had 120hp at the time that's 60k in 3 secs.Gf dead.
To sum it up: Perfect Gf rotation plus daily and att wills:38k including 3 att wills.
end of discussion: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lies in this thread are disgusting.i just proved that.This is a mod6 video.Gf has not buffed since.Numbers are quite the same now.
You all lie.i can post 230 k sure strikes of GWfs ore one million Ice knifes from pve and post it separately here and say GWFs or CWs do a lot of damage.While in reality were thebuffs/debuffs that did the handwork.
As an attestement to your abysmal low understanding of Gf class ,is the statement somewhere here in this thread ,that ..
"something bugged is with Gf sure,he ignores my DR".
Trololol it is called mark Ainsteins.Normal mark ignores 8% of Dr ,any Dr except Cws shield. Tab mark ignores 20% of enemy's DR.
This is the primary Gf class feature.It is the same if you asked why GWf goes bigger from time to time and hits more.GWF must be bugged,right? ROLFMAO.
You know shiiit about Gf class ,you have no clue ,you come here posting irrlevant numbers and you asking for nerfs for the less plaed class in pve/pvp.
In a game plugged by
- Negation (fine enchant according to 2 of the Cws posted here) ,the most broken enchant ever,but it suits them. - ELOL set.Nothing to be stated here broken as hell. - Immortal OPs - One shooting TRs. - Bugged SWs that run like Porche 959. - tanky CWs ,that as we saw in the video took the whole rotaion of Gf for 38k. - Bronen drain enchants.Fine for Cws since are ranged and benefits them more. - Broken rings.Actually two of the nerf starters aknowledge that they use them in a separate thread.one of them uses two just to be sure he can win
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All these are fine acording to CWs problem is Gfs...
TRololol whining crabs.
YOU WILL NEVER NERF US CWS NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! \o/ \o/
The nerf thread continues ,by posting the same 4 (four) people endless lies ,propaganda and misinformation.
Someone questioned me about the GF DnD classification.Well you like it or not GF is a preassigned set of Fighter class and its named Guardian Fighter. Leader /Controller as the former head on designer of Nw stated. "tank" this ,and "tank" that,and the "tank" blah blah blah...
Let's go to the essense :
Numbers can be misleading you post an 115k Anvil of Doom. But we do not know if that Anvil was a lone encounter or was the result of 2 or even three encounters. The GF coud used ITF+KC (both utility) and then anvil.Also the enemy toon must be below 40% of its hp. So an entire rotation of a well specced DPS GF(glass cannon outside of block) 115k.
Now tell me all of you how much is the entire rotation of a same IL CW? entagle/repel/disintegrate? Plus your never ending dots and procs ?200k ?300k? Plus you have 90s tange and autoaim.
If GF is so an easy class why 15 or 20 people play it? why you don't play it but instead choose to play your pyjamas Wizzards?
GF must aim of every of its encounter and be in extremely close range.The ranged toons must not complain at all.You were caught of fguard not 1 second but 2 or 4.
But the slow reflexes and the easy games are a characteristic of pvp Cw class cause that's how they learned to play,easy way. Proof:
CW fires three encounters up to 7.02 GF none,cause Gf is melee range. At 7.09 Cw has fired 5 encounters while Gf none.At that point Cw comes into Gf range ,Gf bull charges him for...ehm...4,8k damage.(where are your 50k Bulls you liars? )
Gf in succession fires of his daily against the shielded and neg proned Cw for 1,2k damage.yes the fearsome daily.
Cw is slow Gf catches him up again 3 att wills including the third ,notoriously slow third crushing surge.Cw still there then anvil.The hits are three at wills 7k,6k,5k ,plus an AoD 14,7k damage.The rest of the damage is of GF's team mate the Cw.
Cw ignores the Gf completely and goes against the enemy Cw and fires 2 encounters. They kill the Cw go against the loned GF and then liquid his health-in 3 (thre ) seconds.Considering the Gf had 120hp at the time that's 60k in 3 secs.Gf dead.
To sum it up: Perfect Gf rotation plus daily and att wills:38k including 3 att wills.
end of discussion: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lies in this thread are disgusting.i just proved that.This is a mod6 video.Gf has not buffed since.Numbers are quite the same now.
You all lie.i can post 230 k sure strikes of GWfs ore one million Ice knifes from pve and post it separately here and say GWFs or CWs do a lot of damage.While in reality were thebuffs/debuffs that did the handwork.
As an attestement to your abysmal low understanding of Gf class ,is the statement somewhere here in this thread ,that ..
"something bugged is with Gf sure,he ignores my DR".
Trololol it is called mark Ainsteins.Normal mark ignores 8% of Dr ,any Dr except Cws shield. Tab mark ignores 20% of enemy's DR.
This is the primary Gf class feature.It is the same if you asked why GWf goes bigger from time to time and hits more.GWF must be bugged,right? ROLFMAO.
You know shiiit about Gf class ,you have no clue ,you come here posting irrlevant numbers and you asking for nerfs for the less plaed class in pve/pvp.
In a game plugged by
- Negation (fine enchant according to 2 of the Cws posted here) ,the most broken enchant ever,but it suits them. - ELOL set.Nothing to be stated here broken as hell. - Immortal OPs - One shooting TRs. - Bugged SWs that run like Porche 959. - tanky CWs ,that as we saw in the video took the whole rotaion of Gf for 38k. - Bronen drain enchants.Fine for Cws since are ranged and benefits them more. - Broken rings.Actually two of the nerf starters aknowledge that they use them in a separate thread.one of them uses two just to be sure he can win
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All these are fine acording to CWs problem is Gfs...
TRololol whining crabs.
YOU WILL NEVER NERF US CWS NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! \o/ \o/
Cry babies ,cry moarrrr!!!!
1. Video is old btw. I think it was made before the fix of CW when they had this multiproccing thing bug and stomped everything in PVE and PVP, and it is discussed endlessly, the fix came quick... mod 6 in the beginning so you want to prove anything with a video that only shows a bug?
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
3. numbers are not misleading its the GF conquerer that runs ITF, AoD + Bullcharge or lounging strike or a daily like crescendo followed by AoD onerotating GWF-class, and most other classes, and as you can read in another thread -->also well build and stuffed OP´s , tolkienbuff wrote it in the cowardring discussion, look up for it yourself sure they use ITF-->BC or crescendo to cc-->AoD finish, what else?
for the lazy ones here the full text to let youn know how to kill the poor rest of PVP, since it is completely senseless to dicuss it , noone will read it and some of the small PVP community like broken HAMSTER.ty game and misbalance : by tolkienbuff. " It's bad on any toon tbh, I got killed in one rotation by a GF on my Palladin. He stood between nodes in Hotenow used Firewheel, itf, then went stealth. The match was already over (other team had quit fighting) he comes up, knights challenges me from stealth, crescendo dailies me and anvils me for all my life. It was quite comical honestly. It's the worst in terms of game mechanics. He used to play TR when you could one shot shocking people, now he plays stealth GF... I can't even begin to tell you how stupid this game looks giving the most defensive class (GF) the ability to stealth as well." you really need a prove or numbers to see how HAMSTER.py that is? You are a hopeless case my dear
4. a conquerer GF is by sure no glasscannon, that´s a misleading desciption, it needs some effort to get him down what wuold you call other classes like Hunter ..... GF-glasscannon and hunter- "ultra-glasscannon"?
5. right CW can onerotate and is powerfull, but... not overpowered, its no a tanking class with high defence, cc resist etc., I do not play a CW and a fight between warlock and CW is far more balanced than facing a tank having the highest burst in game
6. who exactly is trolling , the one that names numbers and points at a misbalance ingame or the one that pulls out some old videos to prove what?
7. the big difference between you and some other in this thread is: They name misbalanced broken stuff, I do it myself and never deny it in any thread and I do not make a difference if its the class I play or another one.
8. all I want, and I hope the rest too, is a game to enjoy, but as long as lots of palyer run cowardring, ambushring, broken builds in every aspect etc. we will get nothing than a facked game with a near vanished PVP community
GF is fotm atm, just accept it, last match 4 GF in a match ... like mod 5 TR epidemy
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
Yes, as I've pointed out before, the GF's primary role is Defender, their secondary role is Controller. They are not listed as Strikers (the ones responsible for doing massive damage to single targets). There are four different party roles a character can fulfill in 4th Ed D&D; NW GFs are basically providing three out of four in PvP.
The DD4 doesn't exactly expand on what a GF's role is. If you have the manual that gets to it, would be nice if you could share. But yeah, i would agree that controller is actually part of all fighter descriptions in DD4.
Post edited by oliboyph on
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
If GF is so an easy class why 15 or 20 people play it? why you don't play it but instead choose to play your pyjamas Wizzards?
Because the way they implemented it, the class is lamearse to the max in the "fun" category.
Again, this isn't due to any fault of the GF player. It's the way how the devs set up the basic combat routine in such insignificant and boring-as-hell manner. Having dabbled in all classes to an extent, even the OP is more fun to play than the GF.
Yeah, really. The OPaly. The class with which, you just simply hold up the shield while pressing down on the "S" key for backpedallin' round and round the node. This is actually more fun to play than compared to how the GF does it. Since the OPaly is so pathetic in damage, as well it tends to become a dummy-magnet and draws in fire from every inexperienced player in the vicinity.
The GF? Basically do the same thing. Shield up. Backpedal. Wait until major encounter recharge. Lunge. Smack. Pow. Repeat.
Wow. Such fun.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
CW players complain about everything even free kill SW class.
Fastest cast times, good dodge, huge unmitigatable passive defense, pushes that push for miles with good damage - empowered SB is jealous - good passive defense feats that push away melee great buffs even though not a leader class massive healing - still not a leader class - great ability to maximize cheese rings - mmmm cheesy rings - long range, CC that ignores large amounts of tenacity, and dailies that do huge damage and recharge quickly along with the other ridiculously quick cool down encounters.
CW is far from being a PvP dominant class at the moment. They can fight for sure and are not the weakest, but GF, HR, GWF, TR, OP, all these classes have the upper hand against CWs. In most situations, same iLvL.
i honestly dont pvp since mod 8 but im not sure about hr having upper edges on cw. Since they fixed elven battle, hr are only a couple of repels near the death from the start of the fight. actually they are probably the most gimped class in pvp ( or at least this is what im imaging, like i said rings+paladins+gf/gwf Madness gave me anough reasons to just stop)
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
I keep it short, I will never study silly D&D definitions In my world it is just sufficient to say "it´s a fkn tank" like all of us posting in PE chat : "lfm tank/heal needed" or lfm "dps/controller needed 2 spots left" So, noone will pm you being a CW and telling you he will tank Blackdagger or any T2 boss, right? And no GF will pm you telling you he will interpret his role as a leader poking his horn and watching the battle from distance on a hill, or whatever. It is a fkn tank....
wow its started why are cws always the one who want everyone nefed ?its not game it used to be guys where cw was far dominant in everything and this is great thing, pls stop this nerf threads it will make game horrible for everyone again
i honestly dont pvp since mod 8 but im not sure about hr having upper edges on cw. Since they fixed elven battle, hr are only a couple of repels near the death from the start of the fight. actually they are probably the most gimped class in pvp ( or at least this is what im imaging, like i said rings+paladins+gf/gwf Madness gave me anough reasons to just stop)
I guess you are right, average Hunter is squishy a s hell, but the good ones outheal most damage with ease and disable you most time, so hunter + any class except OP/facefull DC is the most toxic combo to face
only to ask, why does everyone post in a repetetive way things like: " cws always the one who want everyone nerfed" ? in this thread there are GWF (strong nerf suppporter class-big community) warlocks (mediocre to weak nerf supporter class, normally pointing out how insufficient their class in general is, in my case overrepresented, since noone else cares..) TR´s and some more classes, but CW´s are by far not the dominating class who wants a nerf in this thread? btw. there will be exactly --> zero reaction <-- to this thread from devs. Stay relaxed go on fotm , onerotating, maybe with some stealth combined, before the fkn rest of PVP is just dead, enjoy. Noone says stop doing so it is a free world. there is not the smallest hope this company will wake up from their slumber
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
I keep it short, I will never study silly D&D definitions In my world it is just sufficient to say "it´s a fkn tank" like all of us posting in PE chat : "lfm tank/heal needed" or lfm "dps/controller needed 2 spots left" So, noone will pm you being a CW and telling you he will tank Blackdagger or any T2 boss, right? And no GF will pm you telling you he will interpret his role as a leader poking his horn and watching the battle from distance on a hill, or whatever. It is a fkn tank....
Then why comment about what someone said about how GF is described in DnD rule set if you don't know anything about it? Also your understanding of leadership in this context (also probably IRL) is really misplaced.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
I keep it short, I will never study silly D&D definitions In my world it is just sufficient to say "it´s a fkn tank" like all of us posting in PE chat : "lfm tank/heal needed" or lfm "dps/controller needed 2 spots left" So, noone will pm you being a CW and telling you he will tank Blackdagger or any T2 boss, right? And no GF will pm you telling you he will interpret his role as a leader poking his horn and watching the battle from distance on a hill, or whatever. It is a fkn tank....
Then why comment about what someone said about how GF is described in DnD rule set if you don't know anything about it? Also your understanding of leadership in this context (also probably IRL) is really misplaced.
ok, i am sure you know enough about D&D, more than me by sure, that´s not my world and I also do not grap a pen and paper in my freetime and start playing orc vs. elf for hours in case D&D says a GF is a defender a leader and a controller in one person, I say thats theory Every game I played till now that followed D&D was made same simple way more or less: tank-dps-healer-supporter it is a tank keep it simple
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
Let me intrude for a bit but he got that from here : http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
I keep it short, I will never study silly D&D definitions In my world it is just sufficient to say "it´s a fkn tank" like all of us posting in PE chat : "lfm tank/heal needed" or lfm "dps/controller needed 2 spots left" So, noone will pm you being a CW and telling you he will tank Blackdagger or any T2 boss, right? And no GF will pm you telling you he will interpret his role as a leader poking his horn and watching the battle from distance on a hill, or whatever. It is a fkn tank....
Then why comment about what someone said about how GF is described in DnD rule set if you don't know anything about it? Also your understanding of leadership in this context (also probably IRL) is really misplaced.
ok, i am sure you know enough about D&D, more than me by sure, that´s not my world and I also do not grap a pen and paper in my freetime and start playing orc vs. elf for hours in case D&D says a GF is a defender a leader and a controller in one person, I say thats theory Every game I played till now that followed D&D was made same simple way more or less: tank-dps-healer-supporter it is a tank keep it simple
But NW is actually DnD. You could say that GF doesn't follow the DD4 description fully, which I would agree with, and that they probably should fix it. The leadership description here is supposed to be one that inspires or "buffs" party memebers, which in this case is actually being followed here in NW. If there is an issue here is as most would indicate that GF here has lost it's controller role and has gained a more "striker" role apparently.
And I wouldn't call in theory, it is after all a rule set, so in other words if you want to carry the DnD brand then you really should follow it.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
It's not so much a DnD-referenced 'roles' problem, than it is a game design problem. Like mentioned the GF class is basically designed to be this, lame way. It's not about individual skill or how much finesses is required to play it well. It's about the reality of combat the class is in, as a whole, from a design perspective.
Everything stems up from the fact that NW roots you in place with skill use. Also, a great many number of classes benefit from the proliferation of it defensive mechanic in the form of dodge/teleport/shift/whatever-the-class-calls-it, whereas certain classes like the GF or OP have something entirely different. This inherently puts ranged combat at an advantage over melees in this game.
Now, before anyone goes saying, "but that's not how it is in NW...", LISTEN, first.
1. Basically, most of the games powers and combat mechanics are based on PvE performance rather than PvP. If we simplify how combat is in NW, it's a mixed system that relies on the combination of atwills(AW) and encounters(ENC), where the former provide a steady source of damage and a number of combat effects, and the latter provide greatly more powerful form of either damage or utility. The efficiency of the class, therefore, can be described as a sum-total of AW+ENC use in a given time period.
2. The problem is, when it comes to PvP, unlike in PvE players are constantly on the move. Also most of those player opponents are equipped with -- as explained above -- defensive mechanics in the form of mobility boosts, which are essentially gap-wideners. Compared to how frequently your opponents can use those forms of defense, and constantly move around, the GF doesn't have any gap closers. Also every power self-roots you. Despite the use of sprint, in principle this applies EXACTLY in the same way to GWFs as well.
Anyone who has ever tried a melee class in PvP combat knows, that without any special use of gap closers, or certain powers that constantly lunge you forward, it is pretty much impossible to land anything if you try to fight against anyone else by moving towards the target manually by walking, and then trying to swing AW combos.
4. Now, the important bit is what this implies.
As said, the combat efficiency of a class in this game is a sum of AW+ENC. AWs account for a hefty amount of DPS by itself, and it is also a very important source of damage to use while your major ENCs are in recharge. The selection of which ENCs to use, is therefore, a tweaking of the class efficiency based on which aspects you need the most in combat.
AWs provide a baseline amount of damage, which on top of it, you select 3 ENCs of your choice to supplement what aspects of the class you think needs improvement. For example the CW -- uses baseline AWs of MM for nice steady damage, RoF for constant self-buffing and CC effects against the target. Upon this, they usually add in Repel as an important anti-melee tool, EF as a major source of CC, DI for OP levels of quick repeating burst damage, and ofcourse the Shield for obvious reasons. In combat the CW cycles through all of its ENC powers according to need, and all the while the powers are in recharge it still continues the offensive with AWs.
Now, compare the situation with how melees are, typically the GF. None of your AWs can hit. Basically the other guy just holds down one of the movement keys, or just occasionally uses dodge type defense, and you spend the whole time trying to walk towards him and try to land something. There's no way you can continuously hit with any amount of AW combos reliably. So this brings the first problem.
1. The use of AWs as an important source of damage and other secondary combat effects, is denied to melee classes, and the time you spend to try and position yourself to hit any amount of AWs are basically time spent as DPS-loss for the class. You can't hit anything when you're chasing something.
So, this naturally means your other power choices -- the ENCs -- need to be invested utilitarian powers, such as knock, stun, or rooting CCs to have a chance to hit the enemy. But since those CC powers also need to connect to take effect, it means that you also need to invest heavily into gap-closing powers. But then this brings out a second problem.
2. Because of 1, you now invest your ENC into utilitarian powers to provide you a chance to hit reliably. So with those types of encounter powers set, you can now chase up to the enemy and have a chance to land some attacks. So you use a gap-closer to close in, and then use a CC to disable the enemy. Now you finally have a chance to hit the enemy 2~3 times.... and then, you find yourself in the situation that you don't have anything to hit and really damage the other guy, because you just set up all of your ENCs as utilitarian powers.
...folks, it may not seem like much, but basically, by reading the above you've been given the explanation to the BANE of existance to all melee classes in this game, and thus, the DEFINITIVE answer to why GWFs, GFs, and even TRs are designed in this manner in the game.
Basically, for melee classes of NW, the EFFECTIVE TIME-ON-TARGET(ToT) is extremely short than compared to most other games. Doesn't matter how strong damage you have. If you have a punitively low ToT, then the ratio of the damage you are able to deal in a certain given time (=DPS) is actually very low. You can have a 50k per pop attack at your arsenal, but if can land it only once during a 1 minute time period, then your DPS is 833. The other guy only has like 10k per pop attack to use, but during those 60 minutes he can land like 30 shots while kiting you -- then this guy's effective DPS on you is 5k.
The difficulty of landing attacks, basically nullifies AWs as a whole. This itself brings your DPS down significantly, than compared to other classes that can constantly pummel you with attacks. This difficulty, and instability to land attacks through manual maneuvering also requires you to set up most of your special ENC slots to utilitarian powers that may provide you with a better chance to land attacks, but then ironically puts you into a situation where you don't have any strong attacks to use in that small amount of time, because you've just used all your ENC slots for utility powers that usually have pitiful damage.
...
So, what's the solution for this dilemma?
From a development perspective, overhauling the entire combat system to something that works better is the solution. But from a business standpoint, that's impossible. So naturally, the simplest, easiest way to solve this problem, is RAISING THE BURST DAMAGE OF CLASSES THAT SUFFER FROM THIS PROBLEM, UPTO KRAPTASTIC LEVELS, SO THAT THE DAMAGE THAT GOES IN DURING THAT VERY SHORT ToT IS ACTUALLY SO POWERFUL AS TO BRING THE OPPONENT DOWN
Now you knwo why GF ENCs are given that much of damage, and why GWF tactics also rely on the exact same principle, and why other options like Instigators (which are like the posterboy of the 'problem' I mentioned above) don't work in PvP.
Both the GF and GWF have initially the same problem. This is also why both classes need a very high basic IL to become combatworthy. Both are exposed to enemy attacks very frequently, while the general efficiency of its own attacks at the gutter levels. Both have a lot of interesting ENCs, but due to the problems stated above, none of them are viable in PvP because it cuts down on the DPS level which already suffers from its limitations as a melee class.
Therefore, the devs, instead of updating the combat mechanic and solving these problems, simply SLAPS HUMONGOUS DAMAGE on top of those CC/gap-closing powers themselves, so that despite having nothing else to do and just sit around and wait until the power recharges, once it does, the small number of attacks that have a better chance to connect may also instantly end the fight.
In case of GWFs, that becomes the reason why they need so much gear, so they can survive long enough to continuous chase down enemies, and despite all the misses and whiffs, if one of the attack connects, then they can also close the fight.
Things are the same for TRs, but in their case, stealth acts as a remedy to this problem, as well as most TRs just avert this problem by making themselves pseudo-ranged in the first place. Remember how I emphasized the importance of AWs in combat? Notice how these TRs are given the option to make full use of their AWs, by switching out the main attack to a ranged one. Besides, stupid decisions like giving powers like SE a 28' range certainly helps a lot as well.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's not so much a DnD-referenced 'roles' problem, than it is a game design problem. Like mentioned the GF class is basically designed to be this, lame way. It's not about individual skill or how much finesses is required to play it well. It's about the reality of combat the class is in, as a whole, from a design perspective.
Everything stems up from the fact that NW roots you in place with skill use. Also, a great many number of classes benefit from the proliferation of it defensive mechanic in the form of dodge/teleport/shift/whatever-the-class-calls-it, whereas certain classes like the GF or OP have something entirely different. This inherently puts ranged combat at an advantage over melees in this game.
.............................
"This inherently puts ranged combat at an advantage over melees in this game. " hmmm, reality tells it´s the melee clas that dominates range classes in this game, right we know about it.
What you say about melee class in NWO only counts for GF/OP who can´t hit with at will most time. I have to stand still casting AW and encounter myself being a range class, so thats no point for anyone imo. TR is more or less an class with perma advantage hitting from range and melee or using big aoe effects. GF and GWF gets toxic upwards 3k, no you do not have to be BIS any more, and 3k is average for most player taking part for about one year in this game. GWF´s AW have such a wide range like most of his encounter, defending a node mostly forces you to stay back and kite them, it´s hard to face him 1 vs 1 as ranged class on a node, so it´s a clear advatage on his side imo, and the builds I meat are more mobile than any other class, standing on my feet all time, endless stamina , but sure they have to be that way except this small problem with their high bursts, HD deals more damage than any of my encounter.
GF also needs burst, sure, otherwise he can´t stand anything, but no matter wich encounter you chose, above some gear level he oncycles everything even BIS GWF, that´s a point to ask for balance. When i go PVP and meet those GF builds 3,5-4k, side by side some cc class, most games ends at campfire after a very short time or ppl leave 1min after match started since they know exactly what will happen >50% of both groups even do not get 600 points. but sure we talk about some GF, not all, since I also meet GF who despite near maxed gear, doesn´t get much done, can´t say why.....
imho - gwfs and gfs in dps tree must have MUCH less survival - than it will be fair...
Less survival? Are you from moon? So, let TR have no stealth when attacking. Fair enough? Each dager from nowhere, reveals him. Then it would be cry on forum. All of those extremelly deflecting TRs would be visible at least !
Now seriously. I'm playing GF since 1st day of NWO. I was asking for nerf different classes so many times, I can't count. Finally realized, that the reason is in my mind. Think how to use your class, how to kill certain class. Don't stick with your prejudice. You'll find a pleasure in playing this game despite bugs and lack of balance.
imho - gwfs and gfs in dps tree must have MUCH less survival - than it will be fair...
Finally realized, that the reason is in my mind. Think how to use your class, how to kill certain class. Don't stick with your prejudice. You'll find a pleasure in playing this game despite bugs and lack of balance.
regards
thanks for the hint now I start killing faithfull DC´s with T elven and cowardring in my mind, first i kick them out of "zero-zone" and twohit them with ease with my warlock
You made such a long eloquent post with beautiful imagery of variety of tanks but that gf vs cw sequence you broke down was pathetic. First lets start off noting two things. 1.) the GF is IV not SM, his rotation is utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and he should feel bad for picking this build. 2.) the CW has shield in spell mastery.
Now in a regular scenario, u know outside of that video's depictions of how simple it is to play 2 cws with voice communications together, a guardian fighter would atleast MARK his target, then prone it to mitigate their defences, and while they are most vulnerable they will pull the soul out of any CW with a Crescendo > Anvil chain, I shouldn't have to say it but yes this should all be done within 8 seconds of casting ITF or results may vary.
Actually leme take a step back and note my personal GF is only around 14k armor pen, but the one in the video above, no way they had even 60%. Bad players fite good players, bad players will always die. Thats not a class issue, but as someone else stated previously in the thread the whole thing boils down to whos in control of the character.
It sucks because I personally think CWs are far too strong of a class but people making <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor arguments for GFs make us look even worse.
LGPG Leader Indy - XB1 & PS4 - GF xeV Indy - PS4 - TR Nde - XB1 - HR GT: its indy time PSN: itsindytime Twitch: indygoinlive The Kanye West of Neverwinter
Comments
Someone questioned me about the GF DnD classification.Well you like it or not GF is a preassigned set of Fighter class and its named Guardian Fighter.
Leader /Controller as the former head on designer of Nw stated. "tank" this ,and "tank" that,and the "tank" blah blah blah...
Tank:
other type of tank:
Guardian Fighter :
Let's go to the essense :
Numbers can be misleading you post an 115k Anvil of Doom. But we do not know if that Anvil was a lone encounter or was the result of 2 or even three encounters.
The GF coud used ITF+KC (both utility) and then anvil.Also the enemy toon must be below 40% of its hp.
So an entire rotation of a well specced DPS GF(glass cannon outside of block) 115k.
Now tell me all of you how much is the entire rotation of a same IL CW? entagle/repel/disintegrate? Plus your never ending dots and procs ?200k ?300k? Plus you have 90s tange and autoaim.
If GF is so an easy class why 15 or 20 people play it? why you don't play it but instead choose to play your pyjamas Wizzards?
GF must aim of every of its encounter and be in extremely close range.The ranged toons must not complain at all.You were caught of fguard not 1 second but 2 or 4.
But the slow reflexes and the easy games are a characteristic of pvp Cw class cause that's how they learned to play,easy way.
Proof:
6.53 GF vs Cw in vicinity battle starts.
CW fires three encounters up to 7.02 GF none,cause Gf is melee range.
At 7.09 Cw has fired 5 encounters while Gf none.At that point Cw comes into Gf range ,Gf bull charges him for...ehm...4,8k damage.(where are your 50k Bulls you liars? )
Gf in succession fires of his daily against the shielded and neg proned Cw for 1,2k damage.yes the fearsome daily.
Cw is slow Gf catches him up again 3 att wills including the third ,notoriously slow third crushing surge.Cw still there
then anvil.The hits are three at wills 7k,6k,5k ,plus an AoD 14,7k damage.The rest of the damage is of GF's team mate the Cw.
Cw ignores the Gf completely and goes against the enemy Cw and fires 2 encounters.
They kill the Cw go against the loned GF and then liquid his health-in 3 (thre ) seconds.Considering the Gf had 120hp at the time that's 60k in 3 secs.Gf dead.
To sum it up:
Perfect Gf rotation plus daily and att wills:38k including 3 att wills.
end of discussion:
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The lies in this thread are disgusting.i just proved that.This is a mod6 video.Gf has not buffed since.Numbers are quite the same now.
You all lie.i can post 230 k sure strikes of GWfs ore one million Ice knifes from pve and post it separately here and say GWFs or CWs do a lot of damage.While in reality were thebuffs/debuffs that did the handwork.
As an attestement to your abysmal low understanding of Gf class ,is the statement somewhere here in this thread ,that ..
"something bugged is with Gf sure,he ignores my DR".
Trololol it is called mark Ainsteins.Normal mark ignores 8% of Dr ,any Dr except Cws shield.
Tab mark ignores 20% of enemy's DR.
This is the primary Gf class feature.It is the same if you asked why GWf goes bigger from time to time and hits more.GWF must be bugged,right? ROLFMAO.
You know shiiit about Gf class ,you have no clue ,you come here posting irrlevant numbers and you asking for nerfs for the less plaed class in pve/pvp.
In a game plugged by
- Negation (fine enchant according to 2 of the Cws posted here) ,the most broken enchant ever,but it suits them.
- ELOL set.Nothing to be stated here broken as hell.
- Immortal OPs
- One shooting TRs.
- Bugged SWs that run like Porche 959.
- tanky CWs ,that as we saw in the video took the whole rotaion of Gf for 38k.
- Bronen drain enchants.Fine for Cws since are ranged and benefits them more.
- Broken rings.Actually two of the nerf starters aknowledge that they use them in a separate thread.one of them uses two just to be sure he can win
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All these are fine acording to CWs problem is Gfs...
TRololol whining crabs.
YOU WILL NEVER NERF US CWS NEVER NEVER NEVER!!! \o/ \o/
Cry babies ,cry moarrrr!!!!
But in general I agree with you 100%
so you want to prove anything with a video that only shows a bug?
2. GF is a controller, leader lolol...hm let´s see, guardian = ?
3. numbers are not misleading its the GF conquerer that runs ITF, AoD + Bullcharge or lounging strike or a daily like crescendo followed by AoD onerotating GWF-class, and most other classes, and as you can read in another thread -->also well build and stuffed OP´s , tolkienbuff wrote it in the cowardring discussion, look up for it yourself
sure they use ITF-->BC or crescendo to cc-->AoD finish, what else?
for the lazy ones here the full text to let youn know how to kill the poor rest of PVP, since it is completely senseless to dicuss it , noone will read it and some of the small PVP community like broken HAMSTER.ty game and misbalance
by tolkienbuff.
" It's bad on any toon tbh, I got killed in one rotation by a GF on my Palladin. He stood between nodes in Hotenow used Firewheel, itf, then went stealth. The match was already over (other team had quit fighting) he comes up, knights challenges me from stealth, crescendo dailies me and anvils me for all my life. It was quite comical honestly. It's the worst in terms of game mechanics. He used to play TR when you could one shot shocking people, now he plays stealth GF... I can't even begin to tell you how stupid this game looks giving the most defensive class (GF) the ability to stealth as well."
you really need a prove or numbers to see how HAMSTER.py that is? You are a hopeless case my dear
4. a conquerer GF is by sure no glasscannon, that´s a misleading desciption, it needs some effort to get him down
what wuold you call other classes like Hunter ..... GF-glasscannon and hunter- "ultra-glasscannon"?
5. right CW can onerotate and is powerfull, but... not overpowered, its no a tanking class with high defence, cc resist etc., I do not play a CW and a fight between warlock and CW is far more balanced than facing a tank having the highest burst in game
6. who exactly is trolling , the one that names numbers and points at a misbalance ingame or the one that pulls out some old videos to prove what?
7. the big difference between you and some other in this thread is: They name misbalanced broken stuff, I do it myself and never deny it in any thread and I do not make a difference if its the class I play or another one.
8. all I want, and I hope the rest too, is a game to enjoy, but as long as lots of palyer run cowardring, ambushring, broken builds in every aspect etc. we will get nothing than a facked game with a near vanished PVP community
GF is fotm atm, just accept it, last match 4 GF in a match ... like mod 5 TR epidemy
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter "so you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." pretty much translates to controlling.
Please continue.
Again, this isn't due to any fault of the GF player. It's the way how the devs set up the basic combat routine in such insignificant and boring-as-hell manner. Having dabbled in all classes to an extent, even the OP is more fun to play than the GF.
Yeah, really. The OPaly. The class with which, you just simply hold up the shield while pressing down on the "S" key for backpedallin' round and round the node. This is actually more fun to play than compared to how the GF does it. Since the OPaly is so pathetic in damage, as well it tends to become a dummy-magnet and draws in fire from every inexperienced player in the vicinity.
The GF? Basically do the same thing. Shield up. Backpedal. Wait until major encounter recharge. Lunge. Smack. Pow. Repeat.
Wow. Such fun.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Fastest cast times, good dodge, huge unmitigatable passive defense, pushes that push for miles with good damage - empowered SB is jealous - good passive defense feats that push away melee great buffs even though not a leader class massive healing - still not a leader class - great ability to maximize cheese rings - mmmm cheesy rings - long range, CC that ignores large amounts of tenacity, and dailies that do huge damage and recharge quickly along with the other ridiculously quick cool down encounters.
Nerf GF CW players can't survive.....
actually they are probably the most gimped class in pvp ( or at least this is what im imaging, like i said rings+paladins+gf/gwf Madness gave me anough reasons to just stop)
In my world it is just sufficient to say "it´s a fkn tank"
like all of us posting in PE chat : "lfm tank/heal needed" or lfm "dps/controller needed 2 spots left"
So, noone will pm you being a CW and telling you he will tank Blackdagger or any T2 boss, right?
And no GF will pm you telling you he will interpret his role as a leader poking his horn and watching the battle from distance on a hill, or whatever.
It is a fkn tank....
only to ask, why does everyone post in a repetetive way things like: " cws always the one who want everyone nerfed" ?
in this thread there are GWF (strong nerf suppporter class-big community)
warlocks (mediocre to weak nerf supporter class, normally pointing out how insufficient their class in general is, in my case overrepresented, since noone else cares..)
TR´s and some more classes, but CW´s are by far not the dominating class who wants a nerf in this thread?
btw. there will be exactly --> zero reaction <-- to this thread from devs.
Stay relaxed go on fotm , onerotating, maybe with some stealth combined, before the fkn rest of PVP is just dead, enjoy.
Noone says stop doing so it is a free world.
there is not the smallest hope this company will wake up from their slumber
in case D&D says a GF is a defender a leader and a controller in one person, I say thats theory
Every game I played till now that followed D&D was made same simple way more or less: tank-dps-healer-supporter
it is a tank
And I wouldn't call in theory, it is after all a rule set, so in other words if you want to carry the DnD brand then you really should follow it.
Everything stems up from the fact that NW roots you in place with skill use. Also, a great many number of classes benefit from the proliferation of it defensive mechanic in the form of dodge/teleport/shift/whatever-the-class-calls-it, whereas certain classes like the GF or OP have something entirely different. This inherently puts ranged combat at an advantage over melees in this game.
Now, before anyone goes saying, "but that's not how it is in NW...", LISTEN, first.
1. Basically, most of the games powers and combat mechanics are based on PvE performance rather than PvP. If we simplify how combat is in NW, it's a mixed system that relies on the combination of atwills(AW) and encounters(ENC), where the former provide a steady source of damage and a number of combat effects, and the latter provide greatly more powerful form of either damage or utility. The efficiency of the class, therefore, can be described as a sum-total of AW+ENC use in a given time period.
2. The problem is, when it comes to PvP, unlike in PvE players are constantly on the move. Also most of those player opponents are equipped with -- as explained above -- defensive mechanics in the form of mobility boosts, which are essentially gap-wideners. Compared to how frequently your opponents can use those forms of defense, and constantly move around, the GF doesn't have any gap closers. Also every power self-roots you. Despite the use of sprint, in principle this applies EXACTLY in the same way to GWFs as well.
Anyone who has ever tried a melee class in PvP combat knows, that without any special use of gap closers, or certain powers that constantly lunge you forward, it is pretty much impossible to land anything if you try to fight against anyone else by moving towards the target manually by walking, and then trying to swing AW combos.
4. Now, the important bit is what this implies.
As said, the combat efficiency of a class in this game is a sum of AW+ENC. AWs account for a hefty amount of DPS by itself, and it is also a very important source of damage to use while your major ENCs are in recharge. The selection of which ENCs to use, is therefore, a tweaking of the class efficiency based on which aspects you need the most in combat.
AWs provide a baseline amount of damage, which on top of it, you select 3 ENCs of your choice to supplement what aspects of the class you think needs improvement. For example the CW -- uses baseline AWs of MM for nice steady damage, RoF for constant self-buffing and CC effects against the target. Upon this, they usually add in Repel as an important anti-melee tool, EF as a major source of CC, DI for OP levels of quick repeating burst damage, and ofcourse the Shield for obvious reasons. In combat the CW cycles through all of its ENC powers according to need, and all the while the powers are in recharge it still continues the offensive with AWs.
Now, compare the situation with how melees are, typically the GF. None of your AWs can hit. Basically the other guy just holds down one of the movement keys, or just occasionally uses dodge type defense, and you spend the whole time trying to walk towards him and try to land something. There's no way you can continuously hit with any amount of AW combos reliably. So this brings the first problem.
1. The use of AWs as an important source of damage and other secondary combat effects, is denied to melee classes, and the time you spend to try and position yourself to hit any amount of AWs are basically time spent as DPS-loss for the class. You can't hit anything when you're chasing something.
So, this naturally means your other power choices -- the ENCs -- need to be invested utilitarian powers, such as knock, stun, or rooting CCs to have a chance to hit the enemy. But since those CC powers also need to connect to take effect, it means that you also need to invest heavily into gap-closing powers. But then this brings out a second problem.
2. Because of 1, you now invest your ENC into utilitarian powers to provide you a chance to hit reliably. So with those types of encounter powers set, you can now chase up to the enemy and have a chance to land some attacks. So you use a gap-closer to close in, and then use a CC to disable the enemy. Now you finally have a chance to hit the enemy 2~3 times.... and then, you find yourself in the situation that you don't have anything to hit and really damage the other guy, because you just set up all of your ENCs as utilitarian powers.
...folks, it may not seem like much, but basically, by reading the above you've been given the explanation to the BANE of existance to all melee classes in this game, and thus, the DEFINITIVE answer to why GWFs, GFs, and even TRs are designed in this manner in the game.
Basically, for melee classes of NW, the EFFECTIVE TIME-ON-TARGET(ToT) is extremely short than compared to most other games. Doesn't matter how strong damage you have. If you have a punitively low ToT, then the ratio of the damage you are able to deal in a certain given time (=DPS) is actually very low. You can have a 50k per pop attack at your arsenal, but if can land it only once during a 1 minute time period, then your DPS is 833. The other guy only has like 10k per pop attack to use, but during those 60 minutes he can land like 30 shots while kiting you -- then this guy's effective DPS on you is 5k.
The difficulty of landing attacks, basically nullifies AWs as a whole. This itself brings your DPS down significantly, than compared to other classes that can constantly pummel you with attacks. This difficulty, and instability to land attacks through manual maneuvering also requires you to set up most of your special ENC slots to utilitarian powers that may provide you with a better chance to land attacks, but then ironically puts you into a situation where you don't have any strong attacks to use in that small amount of time, because you've just used all your ENC slots for utility powers that usually have pitiful damage.
...
So, what's the solution for this dilemma?
From a development perspective, overhauling the entire combat system to something that works better is the solution. But from a business standpoint, that's impossible. So naturally, the simplest, easiest way to solve this problem, is RAISING THE BURST DAMAGE OF CLASSES THAT SUFFER FROM THIS PROBLEM, UPTO KRAPTASTIC LEVELS, SO THAT THE DAMAGE THAT GOES IN DURING THAT VERY SHORT ToT IS ACTUALLY SO POWERFUL AS TO BRING THE OPPONENT DOWN
Now you knwo why GF ENCs are given that much of damage, and why GWF tactics also rely on the exact same principle, and why other options like Instigators (which are like the posterboy of the 'problem' I mentioned above) don't work in PvP.
Both the GF and GWF have initially the same problem. This is also why both classes need a very high basic IL to become combatworthy. Both are exposed to enemy attacks very frequently, while the general efficiency of its own attacks at the gutter levels. Both have a lot of interesting ENCs, but due to the problems stated above, none of them are viable in PvP because it cuts down on the DPS level which already suffers from its limitations as a melee class.
Therefore, the devs, instead of updating the combat mechanic and solving these problems, simply SLAPS HUMONGOUS DAMAGE on top of those CC/gap-closing powers themselves, so that despite having nothing else to do and just sit around and wait until the power recharges, once it does, the small number of attacks that have a better chance to connect may also instantly end the fight.
In case of GWFs, that becomes the reason why they need so much gear, so they can survive long enough to continuous chase down enemies, and despite all the misses and whiffs, if one of the attack connects, then they can also close the fight.
Things are the same for TRs, but in their case, stealth acts as a remedy to this problem, as well as most TRs just avert this problem by making themselves pseudo-ranged in the first place. Remember how I emphasized the importance of AWs in combat? Notice how these TRs are given the option to make full use of their AWs, by switching out the main attack to a ranged one. Besides, stupid decisions like giving powers like SE a 28' range certainly helps a lot as well.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
"This inherently puts ranged combat at an advantage over melees in this game. "
hmmm, reality tells it´s the melee clas that dominates range classes in this game, right we know about it.
What you say about melee class in NWO only counts for GF/OP who can´t hit with at will most time.
I have to stand still casting AW and encounter myself being a range class, so thats no point for anyone imo.
TR is more or less an class with perma advantage hitting from range and melee or using big aoe effects.
GF and GWF gets toxic upwards 3k, no you do not have to be BIS any more, and 3k is average for most player taking part for about one year in this game.
GWF´s AW have such a wide range like most of his encounter, defending a node mostly forces you to stay back and kite them, it´s hard to face him 1 vs 1 as ranged class on a node, so it´s a clear advatage on his side imo, and the builds I meat are more mobile than any other class, standing on my feet all time, endless stamina
GF also needs burst, sure, otherwise he can´t stand anything, but no matter wich encounter you chose, above some gear level he oncycles everything even BIS GWF, that´s a point to ask for balance.
When i go PVP and meet those GF builds 3,5-4k, side by side some cc class, most games ends at campfire after a very short time or ppl leave 1min after match started since they know exactly what will happen
>50% of both groups even do not get 600 points.
but sure we talk about some GF, not all, since I also meet GF who despite near maxed gear, doesn´t get much done, can´t say why.....
Now seriously. I'm playing GF since 1st day of NWO. I was asking for nerf different classes so many times, I can't count. Finally realized, that the reason is in my mind. Think how to use your class, how to kill certain class. Don't stick with your prejudice. You'll find a pleasure in playing this game despite bugs and lack of balance.
regards
now I start killing faithfull DC´s with T elven and cowardring in my mind, first i kick them out of "zero-zone" and twohit them with ease with my warlock
You made such a long eloquent post with beautiful imagery of variety of tanks but that gf vs cw sequence you broke down was pathetic. First lets start off noting two things. 1.) the GF is IV not SM, his rotation is utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and he should feel bad for picking this build. 2.) the CW has shield in spell mastery.
Now in a regular scenario, u know outside of that video's depictions of how simple it is to play 2 cws with voice communications together, a guardian fighter would atleast MARK his target, then prone it to mitigate their defences, and while they are most vulnerable they will pull the soul out of any CW with a Crescendo > Anvil chain, I shouldn't have to say it but yes this should all be done within 8 seconds of casting ITF or results may vary.
Actually leme take a step back and note my personal GF is only around 14k armor pen, but the one in the video above, no way they had even 60%. Bad players fite good players, bad players will always die. Thats not a class issue, but as someone else stated previously in the thread the whole thing boils down to whos in control of the character.
It sucks because I personally think CWs are far too strong of a class but people making <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor arguments for GFs make us look even worse.
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