you're 100% correct on the sound and reflexs, i do the same on my GF because SE and Ice Knife have very loud and unique sounds making them very easy to block with practice and like you said making it become a reflex.
You should be able to react, but stamina drain says no.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
Now something what surprised me- "get behind me". I don't know what kind of CWs have you met in domi and i don't know what is your EQ but believe me- when i was fighting aganst GFs like Stoner, Scubus, Prime etc. i was trying to keep max long range between us for obvious reasons - because they can easy put their rotation on me- If you know how to hit CW between dodges, skills like bull charge, frontline and crescendo are almost undodgeable, so approaching to that kind of GFs is just suicide.
At the end i want to say- i have chance to win againts GF with Negation enchant. With Elven in armor- No way, it is certain death
hope you'll understand all i want to say....:) Gretings, Obsy.
1) i didnt said get close to me liek dish on silver plate, use OF to force me to keep shield up, but i dont think i rly should teach u, u r good enought to know what u r doing. 2) that video, it looks to me like cc was deflected, which happens often with hrs and hrs. That said. I hate when hr/tr breaks my crescendo coz of hight deflect ad cc resist alone. Nerf deflect! Im totoaly on it! 3) Oh, i fully understand what u try to do here, thats why im so pissed.
@schietindebux and then u have SWs with motor in they butts, literaly. They runs so fast i even cant follow with them with camera... But thats totaly different story.
Yes, clearly that's what I'm saying. Because there obviously can't be some middle ground between WTFpwning everything and being WTFpwned by everything. (Hint: There can, and it involves the GF doing less damage, but not so little that it's insignificant.) Ideally, the GF should be very hard and take a long time to kill, but they also shouldn't be clearing other characters quicker than a striker. That would mean that GFs can still win 1v1s, but fights involving them would be more balanced.
I dont have enought streght left in me to answer on everything what u have said, so i will stop only on this one. So.. we want pvp to become more tedious again (like its not already with all this match unbalance)? 3min fight 1 vs 1 if healer dont interfere, 1h fight 5 vs 5? Im acctualy big fan of quick solutions. The thing is, just like kropek said, cw can kite us to death, and there r top ones pretty good at this, but there r also cws which can one-rotartion us. And just like cw slowly learned how to deal with gfs, now gfs learn how to deal with kiting cw. Full circle. After all pvp is evolution of players.
Also my reference to 14:20 minute was that 40k Des hit, it was also repeated when kropek got Dom from behind of the philar and literaly 1-rotated him around minute 18:00.
Also still nobody is refering to this: Also there is one funny thing, one of my friends notices. This topic is strongly advocated by ppl from BTG. What a funny coincidence.
"Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. "
^^^ That's right.Even with that kind of unfair advantage Cws still complain.
I think now the the inspirator of that unfair advantage,GMC is gone to rift ,I sincerelly hope the new team will take care of this obscurity...
The ranking is broken, but the most kills/deaths/assists isnt(far as i know). Im not asking for a nerf, im just saying that GF's kill a lot comparing to some dps classes.
mod8 is two weeks old ,even then current pvp is near dead.Stats don't count and even if they do ,as said still pvp best k/d ratios are Trs ,Cws and then GWfs.
i couldn't care less for pvp atm,but the nerf request CWs are sking will affect pve as well.With an abysnal low Gf population(why if it is so op class?) that will mean the death of one of Nw classes.That means less variety in game.it will be bad for you all.
Edit:By the way,Ilhaindes ,i am very happy that new players join the forums .i am happy to see your very first post even if has to be in a GF nerf thread.
Haha, im always reading the forums but i never really write something. I do agree in some part that the GF damage is really high, but then again, their moves are easy dodgeable. Me being a HR, if i make one mistake against a good geared GF im dead, 2 shotted. Turn it around, if the GF is making a mistake its not that bad for him. Dodging again is easy, but when controlled by another player even for a short time, the GF sees it and bam dead. For me its not that big problem, but for players with 2k gs and not able to dodge anything, yes it can be hard. (it does become a problem for me when the GF is using ambush rings, KO out of no where, but thats another discussion)
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
forgot to mention the 3 seconds +50% dr when u use bull charge. and for someone above mentioned the lunging strike same for this too +50% dr for 3 seconds.
Just look at the leaderbord with the most kills, its ruled by GF's. Which is a bit odd knowing its a 'protector' class.
Yeah, we actually discussed this in a another thread. Although the GF's are top 2 in kills they are also some of the highest deaths. These top 2 gf's just do more engagements over all. While we have other classes that have much higher kills to deaths ratio. Some people insist that the leader board is just full of distortions because of pug instances, or trolling characters, etc. So we have only 2 conclusions to draw from this, either the leader board proves nothing, or that GF's are not ruling the leader board because their kill to death ratio is quite average.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
So what should we do to come to something conclusive? I mean we can't keep shooting down each others arguments, this debate will never end of that is the case.
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that all we've done is shoot down people's opinions, and I also got a sense of a double standard here. When someone uses the leader board to point out that GF's are OP the argument was supported, but now that someone used the same leader board to argue the contrary all of the sudden it isn't reliable.
Post edited by oliboyph on
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
For example, GFs are one of the strongest classes for 1v1 and has the highest burst damage of any class, but one poster in another thread stated that they're utility only and shouldn't be expected to win 1v1s. That shows a severe lack of knowledge of the capabilities of a class they are ostensibly trying to defend, which causes a great deal of time to be wasted.
Oh btw, this was me, and so everyone here knows, i apologized for this and said that I mispoke as I wanted to say that a protector/tactician build was not built to win 1v1 pvp. Please include the whole context next time, thanks.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
I already addressed that you need to be aware of a number of things when interpreting the information you get from a particular source. You didn't address those particular arguments that discussed that. In brief, we could put it like this: High kill-death ratios are associated with other broken mechanics or playing PvP in a non-productive way, neither of which do anything to disprove the simple point that GFs do too much damage in PvP, which the high kill counts of some GFs are an indicator of, but don't necessarily show the full picture.
The problem is, to discuss the issues, people really need to have an understanding of the full breadth of what's going on. A lot of people may post in the forums, but they don't necessarily PvP enough or understand what's going on well enough that their opinion is particularly well-considered, but they can nevertheless make noise on the forums which detracts from discussions being useful.
Well in analyzing anything in statistics there is always a certain level of superficial data you need to address first before you dive further in. Normally we start with histograms and analyzing skews, and box graphs etc. Then we continue along trying to sift through noise and adjusting for any data we can assume to be "not applicable". What I'm saying is there must be a first step to trying to pull the data out, we can't get go further into understanding anything if we don't have this first look.
In previous modules or when the NCL was on, we had a more accurate leaderboard, which would actually provide more useful information from it.
I'm also on record for saying that I think GF would probably need to be relatively better in PvE, but their PvP burst damage potential must come down simultaneously. There are ways to achieve that without reducing (or even increasing) their overall PvE damage output and presence. So it's not that I think that GFs need an overall nerf or whatever; simply that one aspect of the class is too good, while other parts aren't good enough (or possibly are getting outshone too much by OPs, being broken as they are).
I have come across this discussion before, I don't think PVE GF's will mind having ITF tuned down, and only improved through tactician feats, or having armor improvements moved further up the protector feat tree, that way conquerors will not be so tanky and ITF will not be that strong. Only issue here is, are we really sure that PVP GF's are too powerful now?
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
@mamalion1234 I've fought your TR and i believe SW several times and all i can possibly suggest is, you should learn to play against GF's. (i don't mean this in an offensive way, no hate intended) You only compete in PvP, if you either have an OP or a DC in your team to support you (when i fought you, you had 2x DC and 1x OP guarding you for the entire match.) So instead of complaining, you should be practicing how to be good like the other CW's that eat GF's for breakfast.
@macjae Newsflash, your CW is not really supposed to kill a heavily armored FIGHTER (yes, they can fight who would have thought!?) in a 1 on 1 situation, unless you feel like you are experienced enough to actually pull it off (like plenty of other CW's are capable of - hint: this should indicate that what you are claining is not really true.). Also your CW is wearing some kind of... let's refer to it as 'pyjama' (or magical Mormon underwear, if it sounds cooler.). How on earth can you try to convince anybody, that a pyjama cannot be penetrated by a sword? If your shield is down, that's too bad and you probably deserve the defeat anyway, since you are not controlling and kiting the target properly. And... the mere fact that your CW class has a shield which adds a layer of defense that's unaffected by arpen is beyond rididulous in itself already. You can survive BC and if you are not trying to go Rambo (1on1) when you are going up against a GF, your teammate can save you from getting killed, by controlling (normally it's your job but, 'oh well'.) the attacker and saving your Pyjama wearing lower back.
@kropek1991 Well... Idk where to start with you. You are that Obsydian666 guy who complains about everything that is a threat to his beloved cun.. excuse me, i mean control wizard class. I remember you quitting, because they toned down some extremely hard hitting CW DoT spells, if i recall correctly (this should be indicating, that you aren't as good of a PvPer as you may be in belief of.). I also know that you're notorious for having abused the (back then) pretty overferforming negation enchantment. Now with negation being changed, your CW cannot just stand there and tank 4 attackers at once, anymore ( You have to control and kite and THINK before you are engaging in combat) which is a good thing in my opinion because, pyjama should not be able to tank anything. You have range, you have CC, you have dodges, yet you fail to utilize them to your advantage. I watched your PvP videos. All you did was facetanking everything with negation + shield and nuking people with absurdly high hitting DoTs. I suggest you do the same thing i suggested to mamalion and learn how to counter or even 'attack' (if getting the jump on people is more to your liking), a GF.
@regenerde According to your post history, you are THAT guy who complains about every random thing in the game on a daily basis, aren't you? Joke aside, i actually agree with some of the things you've complained about in the past but, judging by the fact that you don't or rarely (according to your own statement) compete in PvP often (i believe i read one of you posts saying: 'PvP has no place in a D&D game', i could be wrong, though and don't wanna dig through thousands of your posts) i cannot agree with anything you tried to imply in your post on Page one and i strongly believe, that you should refrain from spreading disinformation on this thread (no hate, just telling you how it is).
tl,dr: The issue is not the GF, the issue resides between chair and screen.
Sincerely, your low ilvl but high iq - GF next door.
These threads will allways be and stay onesided, subjective or missleading. 90% oft ppl only defend their "mainclass" ignoring any kind of argument because: 1. they run wrong setup , wrong stats or don't know the mechanics to use 2. or just want to stay most broken as possible, having easy game to compensate their lack oft performance
We had a similar discussion about oneshooting OP, onshoting TR and so on. A tank should not have the ability to deal 150k crits with an encounter, never! And GF is a tanking class , stop troll comments like"it is a supporter or controller class" as GMC said lol In case a warlock has to kite a GF like Travon Blackdagger all time at maximum distance to avoid being oneshooted him doing 125k crit, the WL 645 per tick damage (max. Dot damage) near same IL, or some striker classes have to perma-dodge for 12 seconds in case they hear ITF, it' s broken. Some here say " it's ment to be that way" knowing its not. The well build GF have easy game, the bad ones go on sucking on their class and deny the obvious, esp the low il high IQ next door, who come here for rare moments and switch back into other games All you get as reward are CW's and warlock's with perma invisability using ambush ring, so broken BS is countered by broken BS
How else would they ever be able to combat anyone under the poorly designed GF combat mechanics? The only thing they are really set up to do in this game is;
(1) use a lunging+CC 'melee' attack that lunges for like 60' distance (2) turtle up (3) wait until power recharge (4) go back to (1)
It's not like there's any brain activity or clever technique involved. Systematically speaking, it's frankly in the same category as MI/Sabo TRs relying on a very simple, easy, and repetitive one-trick which is extremely effective. Of course the difference in this case, being TRs have other options, whereas GFs do not, since, as mentioned, the class combat design is pish-poor in the first place.
So basically the GF isn't really a 'melee' at all. It's a ranged guided missle that launches itself, with a firing cooltime. Most of the attack powers are gimmicky and useless, and not even viable in PvP because most of them are designed with PvE in mind, where enemies are stationary once in attack range.
Without being able to reliably land basic at-will combos the general DPS falls flat for melee classes in this game, and hence, most encounters which were designed to be used with those at-wills become useless in that it either lacks damage severely, or has no chance of landing on mobile enemies in PvP, or both.
Hence the only way to really get an opportunity to attack is through gapclosers, and the only way to land damage reliable enough to have a chance at defeating the enemy is by making sure that regular repetition of gap-closing attacks do enough damage. So Voila, there you have it. The reason why heavy armour clad tank-like classes in this game are more 'mobile' than most ranged/skirmishers.
So naturally, from the POV of the devs, the easy and lazy way of 'buffing' a melee class is simply raising its damage so that anyone can just 'fire' that missile attack and kill something in one or two shots, making it easymode-de-la-creme. If someone complains about it, then simply 'nerf' it by reducing damage of those particular attacks, and suddenly the entire class falters and is about to break down.
Both GWFs and GFs were designed in this ret*rded manner. Can't really blame the players just making the best use out of what limited methods they have.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
How else would they ever be able to combat anyone under the poorly designed GF combat mechanics? The only thing they are really set up to do in this game is;
(1) use a lunging+CC 'melee' attack that lunges for like 60' distance (2) turtle up (3) wait until power recharge (4) go back to (1)
It's not like there's any brain activity or clever technique involved. Systematically speaking, it's frankly in the same category as MI/Sabo TRs relying on a very simple, easy, and repetitive one-trick which is extremely effective. Of course the difference in this case, being TRs have other options, whereas GFs do not, since, as mentioned, the class combat design is pish-poor in the first place.
So basically the GF isn't really a 'melee' at all. It's a ranged guided missle that launches itself, with a firing cooltime. Most of the attack powers are gimmicky and useless, and not even viable in PvP because most of them are designed with PvE in mind, where enemies are stationary once in attack range.
Without being able to reliably land basic at-will combos the general DPS falls flat for melee classes in this game, and hence, most encounters which were designed to be used with those at-wills become useless in that it either lacks damage severely, or has no chance of landing on mobile enemies in PvP, or both.
Hence the only way to really get an opportunity to attack is through gapclosers, and the only way to land damage reliable enough to have a chance at defeating the enemy is by making sure that regular repetition of gap-closing attacks do enough damage. So Voila, there you have it. The reason why heavy armour clad tank-like classes in this game are more 'mobile' than most ranged/skirmishers.
So naturally, from the POV of the devs, the easy and lazy way of 'buffing' a melee class is simply raising its damage so that anyone can just 'fire' that missile attack and kill something in one or two shots, making it easymode-de-la-creme. If someone complains about it, then simply 'nerf' it by reducing damage of those particular attacks, and suddenly the entire class falters and is about to break down.
Both GWFs and GFs were designed in this ret*rded manner. Can't really blame the players just making the best use out of what limited methods they have.
Good point, perhaps it's time to improve GF reflect damage ability for pvp if they want to bring their damage down. Also I hear GWF's unstoppable bug is really messing withe their PVP ability.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Good point, perhaps it's time to improve GF reflect damage ability for pvp if they want to bring their damage down. Also I hear GWF's unstoppable bug is really messing withe their PVP ability.
GFs have the ability to get some reflect damage, and it is more than enough already. Their reflect damage was extremely dumb in module 4 when GFs were even more broken than now and you'd literally kill yourself by attacking them, while all they had to do was hold down shift and make sure to face the right direction. Adding more reflect damage is literally the opposite of making GFs a more active class in PvP, it just emphasizes their passive nature even more -- the opposite of what kweassa was getting at, namely that they are already too passive in their playstyle.
As for GWFs, they are also one of the strongest classes in PvP. They too have extremely strong damage potential, but they must work more for it than GFs, and they have frames where they are actually vulnerable. They're nearly unkillable for most classes in between their unstoppable, quick getaway speed and massive self-healing capabilities. I've almost never seen unstoppable bug out for them, so while it happens, it's not a particularly big factor.
Presently, both of these classes are really strong in PvP mainly because their damage output is so high. But as kweassa pointed out, they are also mechanically disadvantaged, which means that it's very hard to get them at the point where they're just properly balanced. Right now, they're both so tanky that most other classes can't kill them, and yet have so much damage that they can quickly and easily kill most other classes if they get a good rotation in.
Improving doesn't just mean increasing it, you can add another mechanic to it. Are you just going to shoot stuff down? Is that all you do here?
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Comments
2) that video, it looks to me like cc was deflected, which happens often with hrs and hrs. That said. I hate when hr/tr breaks my crescendo coz of hight deflect ad cc resist alone. Nerf deflect! Im totoaly on it!
3) Oh, i fully understand what u try to do here, thats why im so pissed.
@schietindebux and then u have SWs with motor in they butts, literaly. They runs so fast i even cant follow with them with camera... But thats totaly different story.
I dont have enought streght left in me to answer on everything what u have said, so i will stop only on this one. So.. we want pvp to become more tedious again (like its not already with all this match unbalance)? 3min fight 1 vs 1 if healer dont interfere, 1h fight 5 vs 5? Im acctualy big fan of quick solutions. The thing is, just like kropek said, cw can kite us to death, and there r top ones pretty good at this, but there r also cws which can one-rotartion us. And just like cw slowly learned how to deal with gfs, now gfs learn how to deal with kiting cw. Full circle. After all pvp is evolution of players.
Also my reference to 14:20 minute was that 40k Des hit, it was also repeated when kropek got Dom from behind of the philar and literaly 1-rotated him around minute 18:00.
Also still nobody is refering to this:
Also there is one funny thing, one of my friends notices. This topic is strongly advocated by ppl from BTG. What a funny coincidence.
*Still whistles*
(Sin)cerely
Kain
"Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. "
^^^
That's right.Even with that kind of unfair advantage Cws still complain.
I think now the the inspirator of that unfair advantage,GMC is gone to rift
Leaderboard is broken ,always was.Tell me which class has the best K/d ratio after Trs?
I ll make it easy for you.Cws.
And there is no Protector class in Nw.
There are 4 classes in Nw.
Controller,Leader,Defender,Striker.
And Gf is not even Defender according to a GMC post prior to Mod3 release.For Nw purposes Gf it classifies as Leader/Controller.
Happy to help.thanks
i couldn't care less for pvp atm,but the nerf request CWs are sking will affect pve as well.With an abysnal low Gf population(why if it is so op class?) that will mean the death of one of Nw classes.That means less variety in game.it will be bad for you all.
Edit:By the way,Ilhaindes ,i am very happy that new players join the forums
Me being a HR, if i make one mistake against a good geared GF im dead, 2 shotted. Turn it around, if the GF is making a mistake its not that bad for him. Dodging again is easy, but when controlled by another player even for a short time, the GF sees it and bam dead.
For me its not that big problem, but for players with 2k gs and not able to dodge anything, yes it can be hard.
(it does become a problem for me when the GF is using ambush rings, KO out of no where, but thats another discussion)
and for someone above mentioned the lunging strike same for this too +50% dr for 3 seconds.
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that all we've done is shoot down people's opinions, and I also got a sense of a double standard here. When someone uses the leader board to point out that GF's are OP the argument was supported, but now that someone used the same leader board to argue the contrary all of the sudden it isn't reliable.
I have come across this discussion before, I don't think PVE GF's will mind having ITF tuned down, and only improved through tactician feats, or having armor improvements moved further up the protector feat tree, that way conquerors will not be so tanky and ITF will not be that strong. Only issue here is, are we really sure that PVP GF's are too powerful now?
I've fought your TR and i believe SW several times and all i can possibly suggest is, you should learn to play against GF's. (i don't mean this in an offensive way, no hate intended) You only compete in PvP, if you either have an OP or a DC in your team to support you (when i fought you, you had 2x DC and 1x OP guarding you for the entire match.) So instead of complaining, you should be practicing how to be good like the other CW's that eat GF's for breakfast.
@macjae
Newsflash, your CW is not really supposed to kill a heavily armored FIGHTER (yes, they can fight who would have thought!?) in a 1 on 1 situation, unless you feel like you are experienced enough to actually pull it off (like plenty of other CW's are capable of - hint: this should indicate that what you are claining is not really true.). Also your CW is wearing some kind of... let's refer to it as 'pyjama' (or magical Mormon underwear, if it sounds cooler.). How on earth can you try to convince anybody, that a pyjama cannot be penetrated by a sword? If your shield is down, that's too bad and you probably deserve the defeat anyway, since you are not controlling and kiting the target properly. And... the mere fact that your CW class has a shield which adds a layer of defense that's unaffected by arpen is beyond rididulous in itself already. You can survive BC and if you are not trying to go Rambo (1on1) when you are going up against a GF, your teammate can save you from getting killed, by controlling (normally it's your job but, 'oh well'.) the attacker and saving your Pyjama wearing lower back.
@kropek1991
Well... Idk where to start with you. You are that Obsydian666 guy who complains about everything that is a threat to his beloved cun.. excuse me, i mean control wizard class. I remember you quitting, because they toned down some extremely hard hitting CW DoT spells, if i recall correctly (this should be indicating, that you aren't as good of a PvPer as you may be in belief of.). I also know that you're notorious for having abused the (back then) pretty overferforming negation enchantment. Now with negation being changed, your CW cannot just stand there and tank 4 attackers at once, anymore ( You have to control and kite and THINK before you are engaging in combat) which is a good thing in my opinion because, pyjama should not be able to tank anything. You have range, you have CC, you have dodges, yet you fail to utilize them to your advantage. I watched your PvP videos. All you did was facetanking everything with negation + shield and nuking people with absurdly high hitting DoTs. I suggest you do the same thing i suggested to mamalion and learn how to counter or even 'attack' (if getting the jump on people is more to your liking), a GF.
@regenerde
According to your post history, you are THAT guy who complains about every random thing in the game on a daily basis, aren't you? Joke aside, i actually agree with some of the things you've complained about in the past but, judging by the fact that you don't or rarely (according to your own statement) compete in PvP often (i believe i read one of you posts saying: 'PvP has no place in a D&D game', i could be wrong, though and don't wanna dig through thousands of your posts) i cannot agree with anything you tried to imply in your post on Page one and i strongly believe, that you should refrain from spreading disinformation on this thread (no hate, just telling you how it is).
tl,dr: The issue is not the GF, the issue resides between chair and screen.
Sincerely, your low ilvl but high iq - GF next door.
90% oft ppl only defend their "mainclass" ignoring any kind of argument because:
1. they run wrong setup , wrong stats or don't know the mechanics to use
2. or just want to stay most broken as possible, having easy game to compensate their lack oft performance
We had a similar discussion about oneshooting OP, onshoting TR and so on.
A tank should not have the ability to deal 150k crits with an encounter, never!
And GF is a tanking class , stop troll comments like"it is a supporter or controller class" as GMC said lol
In case a warlock has to kite a GF like Travon Blackdagger all time at maximum distance to avoid being oneshooted him doing 125k crit, the WL 645 per tick damage (max. Dot damage) near same IL, or some striker classes have to perma-dodge for 12 seconds in case they hear ITF, it' s broken.
Some here say " it's ment to be that way" knowing its not.
The well build GF have easy game, the bad ones go on sucking on their class and deny the obvious, esp the low il high IQ next door, who come here for rare moments and switch back into other games
All you get as reward are CW's and warlock's with perma invisability using ambush ring, so broken BS is countered by broken BS
How else would they ever be able to combat anyone under the poorly designed GF combat mechanics?
The only thing they are really set up to do in this game is;
(1) use a lunging+CC 'melee' attack that lunges for like 60' distance
(2) turtle up
(3) wait until power recharge
(4) go back to (1)
It's not like there's any brain activity or clever technique involved. Systematically speaking, it's frankly in the same category as MI/Sabo TRs relying on a very simple, easy, and repetitive one-trick which is extremely effective. Of course the difference in this case, being TRs have other options, whereas GFs do not, since, as mentioned, the class combat design is pish-poor in the first place.
So basically the GF isn't really a 'melee' at all. It's a ranged guided missle that launches itself, with a firing cooltime. Most of the attack powers are gimmicky and useless, and not even viable in PvP because most of them are designed with PvE in mind, where enemies are stationary once in attack range.
Without being able to reliably land basic at-will combos the general DPS falls flat for melee classes in this game, and hence, most encounters which were designed to be used with those at-wills become useless in that it either lacks damage severely, or has no chance of landing on mobile enemies in PvP, or both.
Hence the only way to really get an opportunity to attack is through gapclosers, and the only way to land damage reliable enough to have a chance at defeating the enemy is by making sure that regular repetition of gap-closing attacks do enough damage. So Voila, there you have it. The reason why heavy armour clad tank-like classes in this game are more 'mobile' than most ranged/skirmishers.
So naturally, from the POV of the devs, the easy and lazy way of 'buffing' a melee class is simply raising its damage so that anyone can just 'fire' that missile attack and kill something in one or two shots, making it easymode-de-la-creme. If someone complains about it, then simply 'nerf' it by reducing damage of those particular attacks, and suddenly the entire class falters and is about to break down.
Both GWFs and GFs were designed in this ret*rded manner. Can't really blame the players just making the best use out of what limited methods they have.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Unbelievable