BTW: Why can't Cryptic describe things like this more precisely? Sometimes i think it's just for holding the forum community alive.
Games have a very long tradition of obfuscating mechanics from players. It's hard to say why, though my guess is that it goes something like: "the typical player will HATE the game if we show them a formula".
The latter reminds me of a talk a prominent string theorist once gave to a general audience. Early in the talk he decided to write down an equation on the board. Despite his attempts to assure his audience this was pretty much the only one he'd be writing down and there wasn't going to be a lot of focus on it, once he wrote that equation down and tried to say a few things about it half of the audience got up and left.
SCA not hide the math and others isometrics rpgs like recently POE and more elders BG, TOE and IWD so idw why MMOs heavly hide the maths. but have some ideas...
So.. doing my own ACT testing, since my characters are starting to unlock this boon.
Went to PTS and used my TR; stripped him of all gear and all other feats and boons (save the 2 boon tiers before the 10% CA boon). Base crit = 15%, 80% severity, 15 CHA (5% CA bonus), 4855 power, 6.7% -resist. No other CA bonuses used.
Just spamming R4 Duelist's Flurry w/ the Erinyes' pet giving me CA (hence the 'Jab's in the log). Also using R4 Oppressive Darkness for more data per test. Tests lasted about 14-15 mins each, to reduce the impact of rng.
No 10% CA boon
Adding 10% CA boon, w/ no other changes:
The highest difference was ~3.3% between DF's main bleed (5665/5483 avg hit), but that can also be chalked up to the CA boon test having 2% higher crit rate there. For the 2 other dmg portions of DF, the diff was in the range of a 1.1-1.5% increase (749/739, 2266/2241, etc). Oppressive Darkness seemed to not be affected much or at all, but this is prob due to it being derived differently.
This seems to support that the 10% CA bonus is multiplying only on ur current CA bonus, and not also multiplying from the base dmg, nor adding a flat 10% to the CA bonus. I'd assume a range of 1.5-3.5% dmg bonus from it if you have CA.
If it's just just 10% of 15%, then it gives exactly 1.5% of your base damage as extra damage. So, as I said before, you expect 15 points of extra damage for every 1000 base (pre-CA) damage. Pretty marginal.
But do we even know for sure how other CA effects even work? Charisma, base mechanic, blink dogs, interaction with crits, etc. All of these matter. If +5% from charisma makes your base CA 20%, instead of 1.05*.15 = 15.75%, then does this boon give you +2% damage, +1.575%, or +1.5%? Telling the last two apart will require a fairly large amount of reliable, well-understood data. You can't have a particularly confident test on what this one thing does if it's not even clear what every other thing that's involved does.
One way or another it's a pretty minor increase, but we can't say much more than that.
If it's just just 10% of 15%, then it gives exactly 1.5% of your base damage as extra damage. So, as I said before, you expect 15 points of extra damage for every 1000 base (pre-CA) damage. Pretty marginal.
But do we even know for sure how other CA effects even work? Charisma, base mechanic, blink dogs, interaction with crits, etc. All of these matter. If +5% from charisma makes your base CA 20%, instead of 1.05*.15 = 15.75%, then does this boon give you +2% damage, +1.575%, or +1.5%? Telling the last two apart will require a fairly large amount of reliable, well-understood data. You can't have a particularly confident test on what this one thing does if it's not even clear what every other thing that's involved does.
One way or another it's a pretty minor increase, but we can't say much more than that.
Its very tough to get % differences of such small magnitude for anything w/ normal dmg ranges and crit variance. I mean ur arguing a difference of only 0.5% to me.
Still, getting w/in that range already says much. For any of the other options to be true (general 1.1 multiplier, or a flat 10% added to CA), my results would have to be much higher in the 2nd test. Whether it only accounts for the base 15% or any added on top I cannot say, but Ironzerg will prob be able to show that, since I don't have access to many CA bonuses atm- and regardless its a minor difference as you said.
the only way to actually test without major mind blow its by using fixed damage sources, i will be testing as soon as possible. for example if tr oppressive darkness is affected by combat advantage i can have an answer is less than 1 minutes since you only need 1 sample.
edit:ok damage is variable, might need more time i dont want to waste
Have not read all posts but, in case anyone will make the effort testing it, there are issues with CA bonuses being properly applied, depending on what triggers/makes the CA "active". Never bothered, but ive noticed on my WK Scoundrel TR, with a couple of ways getting CA - companions both position and skills included -, that sometimes some effects wont proc, no matter how long i fight that mob, being it one of the feats or that capstone one.
I dont rly remember and dont pay much attention when playin my alts, just try to take into consideration the CA "sources/triggers", for the visuals (that blue circle) dont rly have to necessarily reflect the reality.
edit: damned forum design, i think i missed a whole page of this thread!
A bit nosy NW-DKG7E99X6
"Hardcore" exploration journey and dungeon crawl. Read its description prior to trying it.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Ok, sorry for being absent for so long. This is a tricky thing to test. Had to bust out the Excel spreadsheets here.
From what I can tell, the bonus is adding +10% to any CA bonuses you might have.
So the formula is 15% *(CHA%*10%)*(STAT*10%) = Damage Done
Normal Icy Rays without any thing did 83.65 average damage
With my base CHA of 18, plus 15% CA base, it averaged 104.87, with the expected damage being 104.66, so right on.
When I increased by CHA to 25, the average damage was 117.6. Expected damage was 117.74. So again, dead on.
Which seemed to work fine until I added in the Blink Dog and Intellect Devourer, then initial tests showed an increase of almost 10% more than expected...which is where I think my earlier mistake in believe that Drow Tactics was working came in.
According to the formulas, the expected damage should've been 131.05, but the observed damage was 142.99
So I have to go back and do more tests with those pets to figure out what's going on with them. But I wanted to at least drop back in and update where I'm at with my testing.
So it seems like they have added a CA bonus that doesn't work like the others. So there's potentially 3-4 diff types of CA bonuses that all interact differently (flat % like from the pets, CA as the stat on gear, this 10% CA boon, and maybe CHA's CA also acts differently)? But all can have similar or the same wording in-game, or no good hints as to the interactions..
Cryptic gotta be Cryptic (and cryptic).
GL w/ the further testing, though; its good stuff.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Yeah. Cryptic math be cryptic. @magenubbie I don't know for sure. I'm basically plugging in data and trying to extrapolate a formula that matches the results I'm parsing.
If anyone has an ideas, keep throwing them out there. I'll have to add more variables to the tests to account for some more of these things.
In the future I'd ignore Kisakees posts, atleast when it comes to damage calculations or similar aspects of the game.
I test the combat advantage boon with ACT on preview server and I cleary noticed a big boost in my damage output, it's one of the strongest boons avaible right now. Make sure you always have a group member which gives permantly combat advantage.
So it seems like they have added a CA bonus that doesn't work like the others. So there's potentially 3-4 diff types of CA bonuses that all interact differently (flat % like from the pets, CA as the stat on gear, this 10% CA boon, and maybe CHA's CA also acts differently)? But all can have similar or the same wording in-game, or no good hints as to the interactions..
Cryptic gotta be Cryptic (and cryptic).
GL w/ the further testing, though; its good stuff.
Well the wording for the active bonuses on Blink Dog (+% Combat Advantage) and Intellect Devourer (+% Combat Advantage Damage) are slightly different and I always wondered if they gave the same increase.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Do we know what the Diminishing returns are on Combat Advantage? I saw an immediate difference while playing my TR with the boon- Small but noticeable. She's got something like 22-23 Cha. I'm not sure how that weighs out into the stat other than it's around 12%.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2015
Sorry, I'm running in circles here. When Kaelec did his testing, he tested the formula with only the Blink Dog, and not the Intellect Devourer, because it was considered broke at the time.
However, all my testing now shows that when you combine the two, the damage adds up to a lot more than expected.
OBSERVED EXPECTED No CA 77.59 CA 100.59 102.62 INT 108.84 107.75 DOG INT 118.59 113.13 DOG 108.43 107.75 CA+Drow 102.71 103.95
Doing my tests, I'm casting 3 minutes of Ray of Frost with an ungeared character with no feats, powers or boons (except were applicable) and a low level orb. I copy the results from ACT and remove all the critical hits so I have a sample of pure, normal Combat Advantage hits. I then calculate the average, and use the spreadsheet to compute the Observed versus Expected (per the known equation) results.
So I'm not 100% sure if the basic CA formula is exactly right, or if it just worked without the inclusion of the second combat advantage variable (the Intellect Devourer). It would be groovy if @terramak would let one of his boys share the equations for calculating CA with us. Otherwise, I'll keep digging into it as time allows.
Anyway, that's where I'm at now. If anyone with a bigger math brain wants to step in, please do.
And to guys like @zibadawa please remember this is a discussion thread. We're discussing this. No one's claiming absolutes, but rest assured when we do figure this out precisely, we'll make sure that answer filters down through the community. It's no ones intent to spread misinformation.
All we know at this point is:
1) CA damage DOES work 2) Stats DO affect it 3) Drow Tactics ADDS something 4) Blink and Int ARE working
We just don't know exactly how they interact. Or at least I'm not 100% convinced yet.
@ironzerg79 More detailed information on the data may be worthwhile.
How many (non-crit) trials were conducted for each test?
What are the min and max of the observed damages?
What are the min and max damage of the base skill reported by the game?
What is the standard error on each data set? If the "expected" lies within ~2 errors of the observation, then we can't really rule it out as correct; more than 2 errors, especially if it's 3+ errors, away and we have a pretty reasonable basis for rejecting the formula that gave us the expected value.
Does the data appear to adhere to any particular distribution? I would expect either a flat, constant distribution; a binomial distribution (approximately normal if the range of values is wide enough); or a triangular distribution. Those are relatively easy to "see" from a plot of the data, though we can't rule out more exotic distributions.
Do certain values ever appear to be "skipped over"? For example, if you expect a damage range of 800-1000, but over many trials you never actually saw the values 873 and 909, then either you got weirdly unlucky or we've gleaned information about *how* the values are calculated. I don't really expect this last one to happen, but I've seen it before, usually as a result of taking a value from the base range, multiplying/whatever by your modifiers, and then rounding everything. So if the base result was 5, we had a multiplier of 1.3, then that gives 6.5 which rounds up to 7. On the other hand, if the base result was 4, same multiplier, we get 5.2 which rounds down to 5. And we never actually see the value 6 pop up! This can be easily avoided, so is unexpected: you could just compute the new min/max and roll according to whatever kind of distribution is used based on those--this "gap" thing really only pops up when you do all of the rolling in the base range.
There are a lot of useful answers to be found beyond just "what it does to the average".
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Here's an example of what I'm looking at. Here's a scrubbed 3 minute parse with all the critical hits removed, as well as attacks buffed by the Menoz Renegade's Darkfire. Even scrubbed, it's 163 results, which I think is fine for these purposes. All of it came exported directly from ACT. If you have concerns, let me know.
Time AttackType DamageType Victim Damage 7:07:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.4 7:07:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8 7:07:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.1 7:07:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8 7:07:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.4 7:06:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:06:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.1 7:06:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79 7:06:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9 7:06:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78 7:06:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.5 7:06:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5 7:06:54 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78 7:06:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:06:52 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8 7:06:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1 7:06:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6 7:06:50 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2 7:06:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6 7:06:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.6 7:06:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2 7:06:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:06:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7 7:06:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4 7:06:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.7 7:06:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:06:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3 7:06:42 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3 7:06:41 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2 7:06:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7 7:06:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3 7:06:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5 7:06:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:06:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.4 7:06:23 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9 7:06:22 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2 7:06:21 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8 7:06:20 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7 7:06:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.2 7:06:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.8 7:06:18 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2 7:06:17 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:06:15 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2 7:06:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:06:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.1 7:06:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:06:11 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.9 7:06:10 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6 7:06:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3 7:06:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6 7:06:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1 7:06:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3 7:06:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.6 7:06:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.2 7:06:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.7 7:05:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.6 7:05:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4 7:05:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9 7:05:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80 7:05:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.5 7:05:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:05:52 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6 7:05:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7 7:05:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8 7:05:50 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:05:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:05:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6 7:05:48 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1 7:05:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6 7:05:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7 7:05:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1 7:05:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3 7:05:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7 7:05:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9 7:05:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.1 7:05:42 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1 7:05:41 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1 7:05:40 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2 7:05:40 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4 7:05:39 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3 7:05:39 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2 7:05:38 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9 7:05:38 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5 7:05:37 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3 7:05:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6 7:05:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3 7:05:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2 7:05:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3 7:05:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76 7:05:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5 7:05:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5 7:05:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7 7:05:30 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9 7:05:30 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7 7:05:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.4 7:05:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8 7:05:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9 7:05:15 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.2 7:05:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9 7:05:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.4 7:05:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1 7:05:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:05:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.6 7:05:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:05:11 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3 7:05:10 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9 7:05:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:05:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4 7:05:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:05:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.8 7:05:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.7 7:05:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9 7:05:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8 7:05:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6 7:05:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76 7:05:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8 7:05:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5 7:05:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2 7:05:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.3 7:05:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5 7:05:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9 7:05:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.1 7:04:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:04:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.7 7:04:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6 7:04:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9 7:04:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.3 7:04:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7 7:04:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5 7:04:54 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80 7:04:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.9 7:04:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78 7:04:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3 7:04:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3 7:04:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3 7:04:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.8 7:04:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.6 7:04:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2 7:04:33 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7 7:04:33 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6 7:04:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7 7:04:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.2 7:04:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.9 7:04:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3 7:04:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.5 7:04:28 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5 7:04:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5 7:04:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3 7:04:26 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5 7:04:26 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:04:25 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9 7:04:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9 7:04:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6 7:04:23 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4 7:04:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4 7:04:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.8 7:04:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6 7:04:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2 7:04:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6 7:04:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8 7:04:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.1 7:03:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2 7:03:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.1 7:03:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.1
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2015
@zibadawa And look, I'm not a math expert here, but I get what you're trying to do. Throw out jargon. Create confusion. Attempt to discredit. I get it.
So if you're not comfortable with my methods, please run some tests yourself and report back your results. But if you don't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion, please refrain from commenting.
No, it's called basic science. If you're intimidated by people who know what they're talking about, then don't walk around as if you're one of them.
Telling you how to do a good job that's actually useful and could lead to substantial revelations about mechanics to facilitate further and deeper understandings isn't useful to you?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
No, it's called basic science. If you're intimidated by people who know what they're talking about, then don't walk around as if you're one of them.
Telling you how to do a good job that's actually useful and could lead to substantial revelations about mechanics to facilitate further and deeper understandings isn't useful to you?
Less useful than you taking up the task of data collection if you think you're going to do a better job of it because of your superior understanding? Is my thought.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited December 2015
@ironzerg79 his post is all about testing a hypothesis and whether or not the margin of error is significant enough to discredit the equation you are currently using. I *could* do it, but at the moment I don't feel like going to that much effort for that particular piece of information with regard to CA damage. With that being said though, I might look into it on the weekend.
In Statistics, something doesn't need to be true in all cases for it to be true, what he is asking is whether it is true often enough for it to still be a valid approach.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
This isn't rocket science. If you guys require that level of precision, then have at it.
I've tested enough to see that there's a noticeable damage increase when picking up Drow Tactics...do I honestly care enough to keep running tedious testing in order to work backwards to the actual equation and provide reams of statistical evidence to prove it?
Comments
The latter reminds me of a talk a prominent string theorist once gave to a general audience. Early in the talk he decided to write down an equation on the board. Despite his attempts to assure his audience this was pretty much the only one he'd be writing down and there wasn't going to be a lot of focus on it, once he wrote that equation down and tried to say a few things about it half of the audience got up and left.
Like Barbie said: Math is hard.
Went to PTS and used my TR; stripped him of all gear and all other feats and boons (save the 2 boon tiers before the 10% CA boon). Base crit = 15%, 80% severity, 15 CHA (5% CA bonus), 4855 power, 6.7% -resist. No other CA bonuses used.
Just spamming R4 Duelist's Flurry w/ the Erinyes' pet giving me CA (hence the 'Jab's in the log). Also using R4 Oppressive Darkness for more data per test. Tests lasted about 14-15 mins each, to reduce the impact of rng.
No 10% CA boon
Adding 10% CA boon, w/ no other changes:
The highest difference was ~3.3% between DF's main bleed (5665/5483 avg hit), but that can also be chalked up to the CA boon test having 2% higher crit rate there. For the 2 other dmg portions of DF, the diff was in the range of a 1.1-1.5% increase (749/739, 2266/2241, etc). Oppressive Darkness seemed to not be affected much or at all, but this is prob due to it being derived differently.
This seems to support that the 10% CA bonus is multiplying only on ur current CA bonus, and not also multiplying from the base dmg, nor adding a flat 10% to the CA bonus. I'd assume a range of 1.5-3.5% dmg bonus from it if you have CA.
Hope that helps some.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
But do we even know for sure how other CA effects even work? Charisma, base mechanic, blink dogs, interaction with crits, etc. All of these matter. If +5% from charisma makes your base CA 20%, instead of 1.05*.15 = 15.75%, then does this boon give you +2% damage, +1.575%, or +1.5%? Telling the last two apart will require a fairly large amount of reliable, well-understood data. You can't have a particularly confident test on what this one thing does if it's not even clear what every other thing that's involved does.
One way or another it's a pretty minor increase, but we can't say much more than that.
Multiplicative on not crits, everything is additive on crits.
Still, getting w/in that range already says much. For any of the other options to be true (general 1.1 multiplier, or a flat 10% added to CA), my results would have to be much higher in the 2nd test. Whether it only accounts for the base 15% or any added on top I cannot say, but Ironzerg will prob be able to show that, since I don't have access to many CA bonuses atm- and regardless its a minor difference as you said.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
edit:ok damage is variable, might need more time i dont want to waste
I'd test it, but I'm currently too "meh, so what" about this game to bother anymore...
Knowing how the game actually works lets you make proper, informed decisions and get a more satisfying gaming experience.
Not getting "fixed"/changed is even more reason to figure it out: your effort won't be wasted by changes!
I dont rly remember and dont pay much attention when playin my alts, just try to take into consideration the CA "sources/triggers", for the visuals (that blue circle) dont rly have to necessarily reflect the reality.
edit: damned forum design, i think i missed a whole page of this thread!
From what I can tell, the bonus is adding +10% to any CA bonuses you might have.
So the formula is 15% *(CHA%*10%)*(STAT*10%) = Damage Done
Normal Icy Rays without any thing did 83.65 average damage
With my base CHA of 18, plus 15% CA base, it averaged 104.87, with the expected damage being 104.66, so right on.
When I increased by CHA to 25, the average damage was 117.6. Expected damage was 117.74. So again, dead on.
Which seemed to work fine until I added in the Blink Dog and Intellect Devourer, then initial tests showed an increase of almost 10% more than expected...which is where I think my earlier mistake in believe that Drow Tactics was working came in.
According to the formulas, the expected damage should've been 131.05, but the observed damage was 142.99
So I have to go back and do more tests with those pets to figure out what's going on with them. But I wanted to at least drop back in and update where I'm at with my testing.
Cryptic gotta be Cryptic (and cryptic).
GL w/ the further testing, though; its good stuff.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
If anyone has an ideas, keep throwing them out there. I'll have to add more variables to the tests to account for some more of these things.
.......
If this is how people try to present formulas in this community then it's no wonder nobody has any god-damn clue how anything actually works.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
However, all my testing now shows that when you combine the two, the damage adds up to a lot more than expected.
OBSERVED EXPECTED
No CA 77.59
CA 100.59 102.62
INT 108.84 107.75
DOG INT 118.59 113.13
DOG 108.43 107.75
CA+Drow 102.71 103.95
Doing my tests, I'm casting 3 minutes of Ray of Frost with an ungeared character with no feats, powers or boons (except were applicable) and a low level orb. I copy the results from ACT and remove all the critical hits so I have a sample of pure, normal Combat Advantage hits. I then calculate the average, and use the spreadsheet to compute the Observed versus Expected (per the known equation) results.
So I'm not 100% sure if the basic CA formula is exactly right, or if it just worked without the inclusion of the second combat advantage variable (the Intellect Devourer). It would be groovy if @terramak would let one of his boys share the equations for calculating CA with us. Otherwise, I'll keep digging into it as time allows.
Anyway, that's where I'm at now. If anyone with a bigger math brain wants to step in, please do.
And to guys like @zibadawa please remember this is a discussion thread. We're discussing this. No one's claiming absolutes, but rest assured when we do figure this out precisely, we'll make sure that answer filters down through the community. It's no ones intent to spread misinformation.
All we know at this point is:
1) CA damage DOES work
2) Stats DO affect it
3) Drow Tactics ADDS something
4) Blink and Int ARE working
We just don't know exactly how they interact. Or at least I'm not 100% convinced yet.
@asterdahl pretty pls
More detailed information on the data may be worthwhile.
How many (non-crit) trials were conducted for each test?
What are the min and max of the observed damages?
What are the min and max damage of the base skill reported by the game?
What is the standard error on each data set? If the "expected" lies within ~2 errors of the observation, then we can't really rule it out as correct; more than 2 errors, especially if it's 3+ errors, away and we have a pretty reasonable basis for rejecting the formula that gave us the expected value.
Does the data appear to adhere to any particular distribution? I would expect either a flat, constant distribution; a binomial distribution (approximately normal if the range of values is wide enough); or a triangular distribution. Those are relatively easy to "see" from a plot of the data, though we can't rule out more exotic distributions.
Do certain values ever appear to be "skipped over"? For example, if you expect a damage range of 800-1000, but over many trials you never actually saw the values 873 and 909, then either you got weirdly unlucky or we've gleaned information about *how* the values are calculated. I don't really expect this last one to happen, but I've seen it before, usually as a result of taking a value from the base range, multiplying/whatever by your modifiers, and then rounding everything. So if the base result was 5, we had a multiplier of 1.3, then that gives 6.5 which rounds up to 7. On the other hand, if the base result was 4, same multiplier, we get 5.2 which rounds down to 5. And we never actually see the value 6 pop up! This can be easily avoided, so is unexpected: you could just compute the new min/max and roll according to whatever kind of distribution is used based on those--this "gap" thing really only pops up when you do all of the rolling in the base range.
There are a lot of useful answers to be found beyond just "what it does to the average".
Time AttackType DamageType Victim Damage
7:07:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.4
7:07:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8
7:07:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.1
7:07:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8
7:07:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.4
7:06:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:06:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.1
7:06:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79
7:06:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9
7:06:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78
7:06:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.5
7:06:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5
7:06:54 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78
7:06:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:06:52 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8
7:06:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1
7:06:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6
7:06:50 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2
7:06:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6
7:06:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.6
7:06:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2
7:06:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:06:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7
7:06:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4
7:06:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.7
7:06:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:06:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3
7:06:42 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3
7:06:41 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2
7:06:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7
7:06:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3
7:06:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5
7:06:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:06:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.4
7:06:23 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9
7:06:22 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2
7:06:21 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8
7:06:20 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7
7:06:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.2
7:06:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.8
7:06:18 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2
7:06:17 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:06:15 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2
7:06:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:06:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.1
7:06:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:06:11 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.9
7:06:10 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6
7:06:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3
7:06:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6
7:06:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1
7:06:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3
7:06:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.6
7:06:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.2
7:06:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.7
7:05:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.6
7:05:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4
7:05:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9
7:05:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80
7:05:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.5
7:05:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:05:52 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6
7:05:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7
7:05:51 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8
7:05:50 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:05:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:05:49 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6
7:05:48 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1
7:05:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6
7:05:47 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7
7:05:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1
7:05:46 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3
7:05:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7
7:05:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9
7:05:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.1
7:05:42 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.1
7:05:41 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1
7:05:40 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.2
7:05:40 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4
7:05:39 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3
7:05:39 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2
7:05:38 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9
7:05:38 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5
7:05:37 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3
7:05:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6
7:05:36 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3
7:05:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2
7:05:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.3
7:05:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76
7:05:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5
7:05:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5
7:05:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.7
7:05:30 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9
7:05:30 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.7
7:05:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.4
7:05:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.8
7:05:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9
7:05:15 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.2
7:05:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9
7:05:14 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.4
7:05:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.1
7:05:13 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:05:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.6
7:05:12 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:05:11 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3
7:05:10 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9
7:05:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:05:09 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.4
7:05:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:05:08 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.8
7:05:07 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.7
7:05:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.9
7:05:06 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8
7:05:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6
7:05:05 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76
7:05:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.8
7:05:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5
7:05:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2
7:05:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.3
7:05:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5
7:05:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9
7:05:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.1
7:04:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:04:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.7
7:04:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6
7:04:57 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.9
7:04:56 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.3
7:04:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7
7:04:55 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.5
7:04:54 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80
7:04:53 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.9
7:04:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78
7:04:45 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3
7:04:44 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3
7:04:43 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.3
7:04:35 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.8
7:04:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.6
7:04:34 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.2
7:04:33 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.7
7:04:33 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.6
7:04:32 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.7
7:04:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.2
7:04:31 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.9
7:04:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.3
7:04:29 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.5
7:04:28 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.5
7:04:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5
7:04:27 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.3
7:04:26 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.5
7:04:26 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:04:25 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 74.9
7:04:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.9
7:04:24 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.6
7:04:23 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4
7:04:19 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 78.4
7:04:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.8
7:04:04 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6
7:04:03 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 79.2
7:04:02 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 77.6
7:04:01 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.8
7:04:00 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 75.1
7:03:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.2
7:03:59 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 80.1
7:03:58 PM Ray of Frost Physical Target Dummy 76.1
So if you're not comfortable with my methods, please run some tests yourself and report back your results. But if you don't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion, please refrain from commenting.
No, it's called basic science. If you're intimidated by people who know what they're talking about, then don't walk around as if you're one of them.
Telling you how to do a good job that's actually useful and could lead to substantial revelations about mechanics to facilitate further and deeper understandings isn't useful to you?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
In Statistics, something doesn't need to be true in all cases for it to be true, what he is asking is whether it is true often enough for it to still be a valid approach.
I've tested enough to see that there's a noticeable damage increase when picking up Drow Tactics...do I honestly care enough to keep running tedious testing in order to work backwards to the actual equation and provide reams of statistical evidence to prove it?
Nope.