Case in original point. I try and explain the devs' side of this and get insulted into oblivion.
Like I said though, at the end of the day, the devs do look at the forums pretty often, but to expect them (and me) to respond to every topic is unrealistic. We're people, too. We have lives.
who insulted you, im pointing out the history of our relationship. if that's insulting for you think of how we feel.
Be happy about the angry customers, at least those care enough to stay and complain, while waiting for improvements. But be afraid of those that just leave silent...
Case in original point. I try and explain the devs' side of this and get insulted into oblivion.
Like I said though, at the end of the day, the devs do look at the forums pretty often, but to expect them (and me) to respond to every topic is unrealistic. We're people, too. We have lives.
Eh.
I don't really see any insults in this thread. All he did was point out how poorly recent changes have been handled. Both the implementation and the communication regarding the changes have been flat out abysmal.
It's almost like Cryptic and PWE were deliberately not sharing any information with players so that they were hit even harder by the changes.
Be happy about the angry customers, at least those care enough to stay and complain, while waiting for improvements. But be afraid of those that just leave silent...
When the GMoP price changes were announced I went into PE to check if **** had already hit the fan. And there was nothing not even on the AH. So I start spamming in chat about the price change. I get two people that tell me I'm full of it, one guy that PMs asking if it's true, and another guy that says he's selling all his GMoPs at a loss, donating the AD to his guild and quitting the game. Then I check the AH and GMoPs are already down to 60k. Meanwhile people are still trying to trade GMoPs at 85k and enchants at their current value. So there's no doubt that some people got scammed pretty badly.
And they're probably going to quit the game. Can't really blame them.
If any of this had been announced prior to the 2x RP weekend people would be so much better off but it's pretty clear that Cryptic wanted to bleed people dry before they dropped prices.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
People too - can this be true? Are you sure your not a cleverly scripted bot? Lives - surely there can't be a more rewarding experience than managing the masses and the corresponding multitude of immature posts to this or, for that matter, any other gaming forum.
On a serious note, there will be plenty of people happy with the recent changes and very grateful, they just don't post as often.
I give strum huge credit tho, when the rest of the dev team was hiding from the wrath they had stirred up, Strum was business as usual and did his promised stream. They are still pretty much hiding, which is understandable considering the mess they made (my guild is gone now thanks Scott and co.) and Strum is still braving the seething masses to affect communication. He doesn't have the answers we want, sure, but at least he's sticking his neck out there for us. Kudos to the one staff member that deserves his salary (man I sure hope they pay you for this gig).
Looking back, the devs have responded over 30 times this last week to stuff. But it's tough to pick those posts out. @strumslinger Any word on getting a working dev tracker up?
Sure the hobbyists at http://nwo-uncensored.com just set one up. Didn't take them long too and we didn't even have to ask. Working nicely.
don't compare josh to them. Josh set that up within 3 days of vanella along with a readable skin. Plus he has been cataloging bots for forever. Also finds exploits about 100 times faster that people working on this. Plus he posts responses on his forums at a reasonable level. All in his spare time.
What's up with this victimhood bs: "as a community, did so wrong"? Wtf. This whole guilt trip is really something. We don't really deserve anything. Devs are doing whatever they are doing; a lot of it sucks, a lot of it is pretty good. To be honest, 90% of player feedback here and any other game is total HAMSTER. Backseat driving and needless drama. Most players have little perspective on the game as a whole and all the details behind the scenes. Yeah, it's nice to hear what they did or not like, but it's barely ever actionable - too many variables to consider, and none of the players ever consider even half of them. Yeah, these changes suck here and there, but just adapt - take it as part of the game that some apocalyptic change will happen here and there and you'll have to play the game slightly differently.
There is victimhood and there is stealing. Offering people things in game and then taking them away is not honest. I spent forever upgrading my life drinker enchantment so I could actually go in a epic dungeon without dying every times I came to a boss and they turned around a ruined it.
Sorry for any mistakes, I didn't play the game for a year now. Some of the pvp battleground, notably Corsairs and Kumasylum. Level range in one instance - 30 to 60 (65 max level now, i think) How level 30 keep up with 60? Equalized gear (and some tanks and cannon) Although higher level have access to more skills and advanced crystal slotted in their inventory, all player can fight each other as long they know what are they doing, and listening to leader command. I even managed to level up 2 toons only via pvp.
Cant even do that in Neverwinter lvl 11-20 pvp. Why dont I go back play that game you ask? Grinding is real. Maybe Im whining, but something wrong if one TR is killing the entire party.
Case in original point. I try and explain the devs' side of this and get insulted into oblivion.
Like I said though, at the end of the day, the devs do look at the forums pretty often, but to expect them (and me) to respond to every topic is unrealistic. We're people, too. We have lives.
I have no problem with devs not responding to topics, what I do have a problem with is devs not even paying attention to them. The "Account-wide companion" promotion issue has still not reached a resolution after several weeks of complete silence, the new AD changes are bugged/implemented badly as per lots of different player reports but barely a word on that either, leadership tasks are now completely unbalanced and there has been no sign of the promised "improvements" (that aren't actually improvements) to the profession, and when they finally listened to the players enough to implement the WB cost changes, they didn't listen enough to fix the 100+ other AD sinks in the game. Not to mention the bugs, lag, removed dungeons, grind, lack of RP, broken classes/paths/powers, abundance of bots despite the numerous "bot-killer" changes, etc. Barely any words about it at all, and the words we do hear are mostly empty. "We're looking into it", "it's being discussed", "we're working hard to make the necessary changes!", etc, and we barely see any action aside from emergency "bot-killers". I truly am sorry, @strumslinger , that you get so much flack for things that have nothing to do with you and I do not wish to insult you or make you feel bad/guilty/sad, this is a problem that lies with Cryptic/PWE and not any of the community managers or even any one specific person. But understand that while people may be unfounded in any of their anger toward you/other specific people, they are not unfounded in their anger toward the company that goes with "Silence is golden" when almost every single player feels left in the dark, abused, deceived and/or abandoned by the changes (or lack of changes) made. They either have to defend their point (=speak up, explain, elaborate, communicate) about what they're doing, or they have to make an offensive (=make changes, improve the game, fix all the wrongs, give the players more enjoyment) that eliminates the need for a defense. The game industry is a battle for the customers' pleasure and good will, if they don't fight, there's no chance for profit and/or improvement.
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
The key word is ETA.
Because I'm an author of this topic, I'll dare to make a very short list of issues.
1. WHEN lag issues on SH (other areas as well) will be solved? 2. WHEN strong unbalance in gameplay will be fixed (immortals OP, perma root etc.)? 3. WHEN you'll fix companion bonus stop to work on pvp? 4. WHEN you'll fix clearly broken AP/Stamina drain enchant? 5. WHEN you'll give a chance to earn AD, instead od buying in gold sellers? 6. WHEN we will get our DUNGEONS? We got to much dragons already.
Just 6 questions. I think a lot of peaople will be satisfied to listen an answer. WHEN? not IF.
But for every constructive post, there's dozens of non-constructive posts that bury them, or essentially make the threads unreadable. It's extremely tough to create a constructive environment for a dialog when every other posts seems to be an insult, hyperbole or completely ridiculous request (how many times have I seen people demand a rollback to X module...). So just keep that in mind as well. The more a thread devolves into bickering, name calling and trash talking, the less likely you are to get a constructive response. Choose your own adventure here. But ultimately, the players are not being ignored.
Indeed, I'm with you. Following your reasoning, I come to the conclusion that a "forum" is not the best tool to collect constructive feedbacks. In particular when important changes are introduced which alterate the player's experience, it's normal to have 70++ pages on the forum as a reaction. The forum is like a real big square: from time to time you've the major of the city talking to the citizens, announcing that the tax will be increased and the level of the services will be lowered, and you don't have to be surprised if the "citizens/community" react as in a crowded place: a mix of insult, counterproposal, constructive feedbacks and so on. I'm suprised about your statement: " a thread devolves into bickering, name calling and trash talking, the less likely you are to get a constructive response"...you cannot get anything different using a forum as a tool to engage a large player base.
My two cents advice is to avoid the use of the forum to announce big changes and use other tools to collect feedbacks, like surveys, questionnaires and so on. Another remark: announcing AD changes as it was done is just a boomerang. Big changes should be supported by presenting to the community a more intelligent plan: "I see a problem and to solve it, I remove this, but I give you this and that". The plan should be submitted to the community for a survey and then you take your decisions, whatever they are. I'm dreaming, I know....Cryptic cannot manage this because they are in emergency mode all the time: the consequence of this can be read in an Italian proverb:"The hasty cat did blind kittens"...more or less this is the translation.
Looking at the current process it's the opposite: 1) Due to bots, AD are removed. Point. 2) Revolution/Insults from the player base 3) "We listened you: we're going to decrease the cost of this and that". (Btw, currently it's only GMoP: what about the rest of the insane costs to upgrade companions for example?) 4) X & Y removed 5) go to 2
The lack of a coherent plan and the constant use of a "trial & error" approach, lead to the current situation. Wikipedia: "Trial and error is a fundamental method of solving problems.It is characterised by repeated, varied attempts which are continued until success,or until the agent stops trying.". I add..or until the players stop playing.
Finally: Having 1900++ istances at Ghost Stories and looking at the Neverwinter steam stats, bring me to the conclusion that a big part of the players base is made of bots. And this is funny: bots cannot be deleted otherwise the management will see a big drop of the active players....
I really wish you and Cryptic to solve all the problems successfully, because this game deserves it.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I might as well point out that this is the first MMO I've played that we don't get any responses to bug reports. It can be a simple "Noted" statement, just so we know you read about it. Even in F2P MMO's we get a responses on bug reports, most of course are just "Noted", or "This is as designed" meaning "current setup is not favorable to you, but it is working as intended, don't expect any changes soon". I Hope someone playing another MMO can post sample of how their dev's communicate in their game.
I do however feel for you guys. There's really no community manager or GM assigned to NWO, so It's most probably Cyrptic or PWE, or Acrgames' fault (Which ever company decided to squeeze every profit, that they did not feel the need to treat each game as a separate project/BU.)
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
I play that game off an on and I can tell you that they have the similar turmoil in game balancing as any other MMO, if not worse than some. As well, on the forum you linked, just on that front page alone are several threads complaining about balance issues.
The only issue i have with Cryptic is thier cedibility. It is hard to believe them at this point when they say something. It used to be when something was broken, i expected it to be fixed, ignoring it was the exception , now i expect stuff to be ignored and fixing is the exception.
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
edited September 2015
Bla Bla
So when you'll fix all of those things, which makes me sick if I launch Neverwinter?
Post edited by ryoshinette on
Ryoshin GF (4.2k) .Suicide Squad.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
I agree that perhaps the dynamic of the forums aren't the best tool for intelligent discussion on the topics facing the game. I question what some good alternatives are.
I kind of feel like there needs to be, like, union negotiation type stuff. Player representatives (a small group at max) along with some dev teams, they talk things out, the results are reported. But aside from just how unrealistic that is, it'd just end with people who don't like the results claiming "not MY representative!" so it's not a very good solution anyway. Oh well.
If most ppl stop crying for Nerf other Classes, Buffing Yours and Free stuff devs could keep tracking the forum...
@strumslinger just keep common sense and ignore the rant horde. I think u may fix bugs then balance classes and giv more payable benefits. The game needs money to survive and ppl must understand.
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
Game needs money? Man, are you from moon? This game is dead already. Only desperates pay now for this bunch of bugs. We can't even know, when they plan to fix vital features of this game!
Sweet Jesus. Really, log to get key for lol VIP and wait for nothing.
Looking back, the devs have responded over 30 times this last week to stuff. But it's tough to pick those posts out. @strumslinger Any word on getting a working dev tracker up?
Sure the hobbyists at http://nwo-uncensored.com just set one up. Didn't take them long too and we didn't even have to ask. Working nicely.
don't compare josh to them. Josh set that up within 3 days of vanella along with a readable skin. Plus he has been cataloging bots for forever. Also finds exploits about 100 times faster that people working on this. Plus he posts responses on his forums at a reasonable level. All in his spare time.
I apologize for my previous posts in this thread. I was posting when I wasn't in the calmest state of mind. I do try and defend the devs though, but I probably spend more time defending you guys when I talk to the devs. More changes to come.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)! Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited September 2015
It's okay, Strum. Many of us realise that for most of the decisions, neither you nor the devs can be blamed. Your heart is at the right place, people just need a platform to let steam off for less popular decisions and if they don't think it through, they tend to choose the next possible opportunity. Which in this case is either the mods or you.
I apologize for my previous posts in this thread. I was posting when I wasn't in the calmest state of mind. I do try and defend the devs though, but I probably spend more time defending you guys when I talk to the devs. More changes to come.
don't sweat it man. emotions are running high for everyone right now. Just keep communicating with us, we'll do our best to give (constructive) feedback
Other changes are being discussed, and you can expect more changes coming.
When you make a change like the one to Leadership that will alienate a huge portion of the player base, you already need your plan in place, and you have to communicate it.
So true.I havent logged in since the AD-changes and i'm not planning to, I just ocassionaly check the forums and hope for a miracle.
Comments
But be afraid of those that just leave silent...
I don't really see any insults in this thread. All he did was point out how poorly recent changes have been handled. Both the implementation and the communication regarding the changes have been flat out abysmal.
It's almost like Cryptic and PWE were deliberately not sharing any information with players so that they were hit even harder by the changes. When the GMoP price changes were announced I went into PE to check if **** had already hit the fan. And there was nothing not even on the AH. So I start spamming in chat about the price change. I get two people that tell me I'm full of it, one guy that PMs asking if it's true, and another guy that says he's selling all his GMoPs at a loss, donating the AD to his guild and quitting the game. Then I check the AH and GMoPs are already down to 60k. Meanwhile people are still trying to trade GMoPs at 85k and enchants at their current value. So there's no doubt that some people got scammed pretty badly.
And they're probably going to quit the game. Can't really blame them.
If any of this had been announced prior to the 2x RP weekend people would be so much better off but it's pretty clear that Cryptic wanted to bleed people dry before they dropped prices.
On a serious note, there will be plenty of people happy with the recent changes and very grateful, they just don't post as often.
Anyway - thanks from me.
I kinda just want them to hire him
We don't really deserve anything. Devs are doing whatever they are doing; a lot of it sucks, a lot of it is pretty good. To be honest, 90% of player feedback here and any other game is total HAMSTER. Backseat driving and needless drama. Most players have little perspective on the game as a whole and all the details behind the scenes. Yeah, it's nice to hear what they did or not like, but it's barely ever actionable - too many variables to consider, and none of the players ever consider even half of them.
Yeah, these changes suck here and there, but just adapt - take it as part of the game that some apocalyptic change will happen here and there and you'll have to play the game slightly differently.
http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/player-vs-player
Sorry for any mistakes, I didn't play the game for a year now.
Some of the pvp battleground, notably Corsairs and Kumasylum.
Level range in one instance - 30 to 60 (65 max level now, i think)
How level 30 keep up with 60? Equalized gear (and some tanks and cannon)
Although higher level have access to more skills and advanced crystal slotted in their inventory, all player can fight each other as long they know what are they doing, and listening to leader command. I even managed to level up 2 toons only via pvp.
Cant even do that in Neverwinter lvl 11-20 pvp. Why dont I go back play that game you ask? Grinding is real.
Maybe Im whining, but something wrong if one TR is killing the entire party.
I truly am sorry, @strumslinger , that you get so much flack for things that have nothing to do with you and I do not wish to insult you or make you feel bad/guilty/sad, this is a problem that lies with Cryptic/PWE and not any of the community managers or even any one specific person. But understand that while people may be unfounded in any of their anger toward you/other specific people, they are not unfounded in their anger toward the company that goes with "Silence is golden" when almost every single player feels left in the dark, abused, deceived and/or abandoned by the changes (or lack of changes) made. They either have to defend their point (=speak up, explain, elaborate, communicate) about what they're doing, or they have to make an offensive (=make changes, improve the game, fix all the wrongs, give the players more enjoyment) that eliminates the need for a defense. The game industry is a battle for the customers' pleasure and good will, if they don't fight, there's no chance for profit and/or improvement.
Because I'm an author of this topic, I'll dare to make a very short list of issues.
1. WHEN lag issues on SH (other areas as well) will be solved?
2. WHEN strong unbalance in gameplay will be fixed (immortals OP, perma root etc.)?
3. WHEN you'll fix companion bonus stop to work on pvp?
4. WHEN you'll fix clearly broken AP/Stamina drain enchant?
5. WHEN you'll give a chance to earn AD, instead od buying in gold sellers?
6. WHEN we will get our DUNGEONS? We got to much dragons already.
Just 6 questions. I think a lot of peaople will be satisfied to listen an answer. WHEN? not IF.
.Suicide Squad.
Following your reasoning, I come to the conclusion that a "forum" is not the best tool to collect constructive feedbacks.
In particular when important changes are introduced which alterate the player's experience, it's normal to have 70++ pages on the forum as a reaction. The forum is like a real big square: from time to time you've the major of the city talking to the citizens, announcing that the tax will be increased and the level of the services will be lowered, and you don't have to be surprised if the "citizens/community" react as in a crowded place: a mix of insult, counterproposal, constructive feedbacks and so on. I'm suprised about your statement: " a thread devolves into bickering, name calling and trash talking, the less likely you are to get a constructive response"...you cannot get anything different using a forum as a tool to engage a large player base.
My two cents advice is to avoid the use of the forum to announce big changes and use other tools to collect feedbacks, like surveys, questionnaires and so on.
Another remark: announcing AD changes as it was done is just a boomerang. Big changes should be supported by presenting to the community a more intelligent plan: "I see a problem and to solve it, I remove this, but I give you this and that". The plan should be submitted to the community for a survey and then you take your decisions, whatever they are.
I'm dreaming, I know....Cryptic cannot manage this because they are in emergency mode all the time: the consequence of this can be read in an Italian proverb:"The hasty cat did blind kittens"...more or less this is the translation.
Looking at the current process it's the opposite:
1) Due to bots, AD are removed. Point.
2) Revolution/Insults from the player base
3) "We listened you: we're going to decrease the cost of this and that". (Btw, currently it's only GMoP: what about the rest of the insane costs to upgrade companions for example?)
4) X & Y removed
5) go to 2
The lack of a coherent plan and the constant use of a "trial & error" approach, lead to the current situation.
Wikipedia:
"Trial and error is a fundamental method of solving problems.It is characterised by repeated, varied attempts which are continued until success,or until the agent stops trying.". I add..or until the players stop playing.
Finally: Having 1900++ istances at Ghost Stories and looking at the Neverwinter steam stats, bring me to the conclusion that a big part of the players base is made of bots. And this is funny: bots cannot be deleted otherwise the management will see a big drop of the active players....
I really wish you and Cryptic to solve all the problems successfully, because this game deserves it.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I do however feel for you guys. There's really no community manager or GM assigned to NWO, so It's most probably Cyrptic or PWE, or Acrgames' fault (Which ever company decided to squeeze every profit, that they did not feel the need to treat each game as a separate project/BU.)
Magnificent perl.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
So when you'll fix all of those things, which makes me sick if I launch Neverwinter?
.Suicide Squad.
I kind of feel like there needs to be, like, union negotiation type stuff. Player representatives (a small group at max) along with some dev teams, they talk things out, the results are reported. But aside from just how unrealistic that is, it'd just end with people who don't like the results claiming "not MY representative!" so it's not a very good solution anyway. Oh well.
@strumslinger just keep common sense and ignore the rant horde. I think u may fix bugs then balance classes and giv more payable benefits.
The game needs money to survive and ppl must understand.
This game is dead already. Only desperates pay now for this bunch of bugs. We can't even know, when they plan to fix vital features of this game!
Sweet Jesus. Really, log to get key for lol VIP and wait for nothing.
.Suicide Squad.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame
Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter
Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger