not commenting about this group but T2 should be cake if anyone has a 2 OP 1 DC infinite bubble +empowered astral shield combo, heck even if there is a T3 T4 instance they will probably still be cake...
@icyphish, hmmm, very good, indeed. Class specific easy... well end off line.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
not commenting about this group but T2 should be cake if anyone has a 2 OP 1 DC infinite bubble +empowered astral shield combo, heck even if there is a T3 T4 instance they will probably still be cake...
That was my point exactly. OP coming on here complaining that T2 dungeons are now faceroll, but overlooks the fact you just highlighted in the post above. Not just one of the well-documented broken class but two. Of course almost all content is therefore made trivial. Try running eCC without that set-up, even without any OP and come back here to post your findings.
I ran eToS with a legit party of GF, DC, TR and SW last night and we certainly didn't stroll through the last boss. There is still a challenge to be had, just depends on the group composition.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
They should just release a 3k version of the same dds , that are not tied to gear but to RP..
I would be down with that.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
They should just release a 3k version of the same dds , that are not tied to gear but to RP..
I would be down with that.
Then there will be complains that only the 1% or elite can complete it so it is not fair. So they nerf it and we are back to were we at .
Elites... just put rewards as nice "Badge T5 Nightmare Hero", I can run that dungeon for badge, but rewards... rank12´s I have, Trans.Enchant I have, rank4 mount I have... why make, for nice "Badge" and all see that dungeon is "End game content" for those who "need" challenge,
So today I had an etos run with no paladins. I played my gf, this was the first time playing him after several damage reductions and arm pen fixes. And holy HAMSTER mobs hit so damn weak I never got that less action points by blocking using the tactician capstone. At the beginning of mod 6 spiderlings hitting you from the side or behind tookat least half of your life. You had to really pay attention to what you're doing and how you do it. Now they hit for like 1/4 of the total HP. We are back to mod 5 where you don't have to pay attention at all. Dungeons were just nerfed too much so that a really big player base can succeed. But don't get me wrong, this is great for them! Just too bad there are not enough challenges for the people you like to call the elite. Dungeons like etos should be "easy" as it is now. But I am missing something like cn. You beat Valindra strongest monster. And who could be able to do that? Exactly, the elite (and this excludes me of course), not every scrub hitting 2k the same day. So there should be more dungeons, one more challenging than the other up to the described level. This is what is missing in this game.
So today I had an etos run with no paladins. I played my gf, this was the first time playing him after several damage reductions and arm pen fixes. And holy HAMSTER mobs hit so damn weak I never got that less action points by blocking using the tactician capstone. At the beginning of mod 6 spiderlings hitting you from the side or behind tookat least half of your life. You had to really pay attention to what you're doing and how you do it. Now they hit for like 1/4 of the total HP. We are back to mod 5 where you don't have to pay attention at all. Dungeons were just nerfed too much so that a really big player base can succeed. But don't get me wrong, this is great for them! Just too bad there are not enough challenges for the people you like to call the elite. Dungeons like etos should be "easy" as it is now. But I am missing something like cn. You beat Valindra strongest monster. And who could be able to do that? Exactly, the elite (and this excludes me of course), not every scrub hitting 2k the same day. So there should be more dungeons, one more challenging than the other up to the described level. This is what is missing in this game.
eTOS was doable before so ArP. FIX did not change that, but did you try eCC/eGWD end bosses too(legit). We did runs and was quite fun to reach end Boss... but there we stopped and did basic movements to take they out arena and so on.
Also did random runs and with randoms(if you are lucky to get queue pop up) those dungeons are still fun and hard because you never know what kind players you get in, .
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
just did etos and ecc legit with 2 OP 2 gwf 1cw, almost invincible the whole time no skill needed
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Just did the 2k run, as promised, with no pallies at all. Will post it as soon is the video is finished being edited and uploaded. There were 0 wipes at the last boss, thats how easy it is in mod 7.
eTOS was doable before so ArP. FIX did not change that, but did you try eCC/eGWD end bosses too(legit). We did runs and was quite fun to reach end Boss... but there we stopped and did basic movements to take they out arena and so on.
Also did random runs and with randoms(if you are lucky to get queue pop up) those dungeons are still fun and hard because you never know what kind players you get in, .
I've finished GWD/CC legitly on my healer OP before the ArP fix. Both times with a GF using KV. It was a bit of a gamble, though, as you never knew when the one-shot move would get you. When it comes to something like that, it's more luck than anything else. Stack defenses, dodges and healing and hope for the best, really. Or get it over with quickly by ways of going all-out burn.
So, considering a kind of challenge was issued, we did a run without any Paladins, around 2k Item level. Group consisted of GF, DC, HR, CW, TR, so pretty 'rainbow', I'd say. No wipes, although we did lose our TR in the fight with Traven pretty early on. Still made it. Editing and uploading the video now.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
Just did the 2k run, as promised, with no pallies at all. Will post it as soon is the video is finished being edited and uploaded. There were 0 wipes at the last boss, thats how easy it is in mod 7.
without me </3 I wanna do this with my SW soon
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Here is the video, with cuts in between, will also be adding it to the OP. Take note, the TR died early on in the traven fight and it was essentially a 4 man. This shows how easy the t2's are now, no pallies, 2k group 4 man attempt and the group did not wipe even once, although the tr died and there were a few SF's.
Gear selection Feats/Boons is next step to help newcomers in this game so add some pics so new players can see what they are missing.
ArP. FIX is then working as it must, .
Waiting details... what other teams are missing.
If you like, when I get the time I will write a full guide for the dungeon. It will take me a while and I am rather busy atm, but I would prefer to go in depth if I write one then only write the skeleton of it.
So, in the interest of fairness and to keep fostering discussion, a couple of comments:
While this is once again a setup with Alexa, Sharpedge (thefabricant) and myself (Aurelius), I know Sharp from previous runs and previous mods. I hadn't met Alexa before our little experiments in ECC. Zavria I do know, and is even on my friends list, but usually plays a GF or GWF. I hadn't even seen him on his TR before today. And - sorry, buddy XD - wasn't even part of the fight for that long.
That being said, I full well understand that this isn't just some ordinary team that came together through the dungeon queue system. We went in with the intent to beat this dungeon at around 2k IL. That's not something I've come to expect from the - often toxic - random queue. Zoning in at 2k IL would probably land you some abuse and people would coax you - or kick you, if people still can, heh - to leave.
The other side, however, is that this is considered 'end-game'. You wouldn't expect a group of completely strangers randomly thrown together via the queue system to face-roll this at 2k IL. At least, I wouldn't have before today. Yes, we were far more communitative than your average pug. Yes, I trusted the DC to heal me in time instead of darting over the map like all the Mod 2 HR's would've done when they pulled agro with Split Shot. Again, not something you would expect from a random group of people thrown together via the queue system. However, we didn't 'plan' anything before walking into Traven. You can hear Sharp talking about using Astral Shield right before he pops the keg. Then, because Astral Shield is dropped, he just popped the keg. I didn't expect it, but the audio-visual clues are enough to start dodging.
Now, while we might not expect these things to happen in a random, queue-made, pug, the question remains: Should dungeons be toned down to the level of the parties that comes out of the queue system *now*, or does the fault really lie with the people in that queue system that fail completely to communicate, are using all the 'wrong' skills for an encounter, and are more focused on exploiting the hell out of the terrain/map to win, than actually showing the slightest bit of cooperation? I mean, explaining an exploit to someone is just about as much work as telling someone where to stand, or to zig-zag through the room when Traven is using his firebombs, so you don't have to pop the keg every now and then.
And really, if this is easy - or, at least, relatively easy. Don't think any of us broke a sweat - for a group that barely meets the absolute minimum requirements to even zone in, why are groups of 3K Item Level somehow acting like they're 'forced' to use exploits, because it's too hard? After the fight, I stopped believing any of that, and that's what I mean with my earlier comment of 'At least, I wouldn't have before today'.
I also, however, recognize that I might be spoiled. I 'grew up' in the NW Legit Community, as it were. My first Epic dungeon runs were with groups formed in Legit. It was common practice for more experienced members of the party - or better geared - to ask the group if they were familiar with the fight, and took the time to explain mechanics and everyones role. Now, as mods progressed, that became less prevalent as everything became a total face-roll. I'm sure plenty of you remember someone in Frozen Heart kiting around the Golems and taking on the Goblin Archers. After a while, we just stopped caring, as Lifesteal took care of that. We all just happily slashed away at the boss, he died, we grabbed our loot and said our goodbyes.
My point in all this, at least when it comes to the previous paragraph, is that it's not unhealthy to review your own actions when claiming something is 'too hard'. Now, I'm absolutely *not* saying that any of you failed to do the following, and won't dismiss the role luck and lag sometimes play, but please, do hear me out:
1) Did you explain the fight? 2) Was everyone on board? Did everyone understand or at least signal to understand? 3) Was the failure human error, or did the game really 'screw you out of a win' via lag or a bug? 4) etc., etc.
And most of all: I'm posting this in the interest of discussion. Once again: I'm not telling people to 'L2P' or dismissing the fact that for some people this is hard. I'm sure it is. But I've completely stopped believing people claiming it's impossible and that you have to exploit it somehow, or that is has to be toned-down.
Apologies for the wall of text, though.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
[...] or does the fault really lie with the people in that queue system that fail completely to communicate, are using all the 'wrong' skills for an encounter, and are more focused on exploiting the hell out of the terrain/map to win, than actually showing the slightest bit of cooperation?
This is it!
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
All these "too easy" whiners need to understand a few simple concepts:
1) The previous difficulty was caused by a bug. It was not intended, it HAD to be fixed and no other change was applied to the enemies, there was no tweak to enemies stats or anything of the sort. 2) Risk vs Reward. The loot from dungeon delves is TERRIBLE, without a fully coordinated and well geared group they also drag out for too long (and if your group is very bad you can still wipe, yes I've seen it happen on Malabog and Valindra as well, thankfully I've been spared such sight in Lostmouth Lair yet). There is NO reason to warrant any kind of difficulty for such miserable reward/time played ratio. 3) It's old content, some of which was introduced over two years ago at release for pete's sake! Apart from final boss (and it's not like they were completely remade, they just got added a few abilities here and there to spice it up, but a lot of the old gimmicks are still there), everything else is just the old instance on steroids.
You want that kind of difficulty back in game? Fine. But do that with new dungeons, and make sure they award legendary equipment or something really unique and cool for doing them. Like every other serious MMO out there does for the hardest content.
Here is the video, with cuts in between, will also be adding it to the OP. Take note, the TR died early on in the traven fight and it was essentially a 4 man. This shows how easy the t2's are now, no pallies, 2k group 4 man attempt and the group did not wipe even once, although the tr died and there were a few SF's.
Here is the video, with cuts in between, will also be adding it to the OP. Take note, the TR died early on in the traven fight and it was essentially a 4 man. This shows how easy the t2's are now, no pallies, 2k group 4 man attempt and the group did not wipe even once, although the tr died and there were a few SF's.
You still did that trick the last 2k video did. Make your Item Level 2k while having the power and crit of 3k. Get REAL 2k characters and do it. Mean-spirited is what it seems to be.
Firstly, myself, Alexa, Aurelius and kain actually ARE 2k. I am 2.3k outside of the vid, Aureius' s char as well as Alexa's and kain's are exactly the way you see them. The only person who is not normally 2k there was freya. Saying get the power and crit of a 2k just shows that the 2k players you are playing with quite frankly do not know what they are doing, because our toons are normally 2k anyhow. Ffs, we 4 manned the last boss, how about rather then saying its not fair to have properly geared 2k characters, you actually properly gear 2k characters yourself.
I am not as nice as Aurelius, I will pull the l2p card, because quite frankly, building your char correctly with limited resources is as much a l2p issue as doing that fight is. You should not be able to take any group of characters, with any random build with any random stat allocation and do dungeons with them. The fact that you expect for people to be able to do t2 dungeons whilst playing a CW with 10k deflect and spamming repel + ice storm (an example) is as indicative that you have no interest in there being challenging content in the game, rather you want anyone to do it.
This content is easy. Build your character the way any sensible person would build their char at 2k ilvl and you will see this. If you having issues whilst spamming ice storm, maybe you should be looking to your own char, rather then towards the difficulty of the content.
The fact that this module I have had to do things like attempt 2 man egwd for a challenge is absurd. Wiped at the last boss and ultimately failed, but learned quite a bit in the process. Last module, I could run a dungeon with a proper party comp and I would get a challenge out of it.
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
Yeah i (tho i fu**ed up) will play L2P card here too.
Firstly:
1) First step of learning how to play is build ur toon correctly, before going into t2 u need to get t1 set, thats a must for new comers, most of those sets is not halfbad balanced, but just before that u need to pick up right build, ask friends, read forum, whatever, its a must. Then ofc artis, making one purple on double rp literaly cost u 1.5 stack of r5 + gmop, gmops may be hard to get at the begining, but in times when stacks of r5 cost under 10k outside of double rp one just need under 30k to at least refine to r59. 2 days of dong rhix dalies at right time (dd, shirmish, pvp). U can basicly buy 1x r7 per day doing only those dailies. Thats around 2 weeks to get ur set r7 + 4x r59 artis (make 3 classes up to r70 before u start gearing one, its important too, coz u learn what other classes can do, and how they play + 1 of 3 artis u get at the begining)
Getting SF asap is a good idea too, weap enchant can come later, especialy for classes like tank, heals and sidedmgs.
2) Now we have gear set up, also build and artis. What left is right rotation, not panicing, and do as much dungs as u can. Nobody of us was good player at start, to be fair my Zavria is my first toon i took to r60, i was always bad at playing her, and i just proved it ;p. Tho i was not playing her for like last 4 mods beside maybe couple pvp matches and 2 dungs in total (her t1 gear came from my gwf farming t2 liek crazy)? Right feats, right dailies, right encounter, right at-will and right rotation in using them, thats what makes player good. Sorry, but i still see gwf's using NSF for some reason, cant stop feeling sorry for them.
3) If u cant beat t2 dungs like we just did, u r simply bad players (yeah, yeah i died, i will go next time on Kain or zahhu to prove my words), as u can see we didnt use any "OP" combo, 4 of us never reached outside 2.5k on toons we took, and they, at the end, did it basicly 4man.
Instead of whining here, take a look at ur toons, learn to play, coz u definietly need it.
You still did that trick the last 2k video did. Make your Item Level 2k while having the power and crit of 3k. Get REAL 2k characters and do it. Mean-spirited is what it seems to be.
Of course, the next set of excuses comes rolling in, although I'm not entirely sure what this even means. I'm not a REAL 2k Item Level? What? My HR up there is actually always running that gear, apart from the Lostmauth Horn which I traded for a TR Sigil.
My crit might be high, but my power is quite low. Actually, that 11k power is with the Cleric buff, too, who's giving me 1.8k. So, I'm at 10k power base. Overpowered, omg.
You know what: let's reverse the roles. We've been kind enough to keep showing what is asked of us. How about you make a video of your gear and/or a run of ECC so people can critique where you went wrong, instead of you constantly making up excuses as to why this isn't somehow legit?
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
All these "too easy" whiners need to understand a few simple concepts:
1) The previous difficulty was caused by a bug. It was not intended, it HAD to be fixed and no other change was applied to the enemies, there was no tweak to enemies stats or anything of the sort. 2) Risk vs Reward. The loot from dungeon delves is TERRIBLE, without a fully coordinated and well geared group they also drag out for too long (and if your group is very bad you can still wipe, yes I've seen it happen on Malabog and Valindra as well, thankfully I've been spared such sight in Lostmouth Lair yet). There is NO reason to warrant any kind of difficulty for such miserable reward/time played ratio. 3) It's old content, some of which was introduced over two years ago at release for pete's sake! Apart from final boss (and it's not like they were completely remade, they just got added a few abilities here and there to spice it up, but a lot of the old gimmicks are still there), everything else is just the old instance on steroids.
You want that kind of difficulty back in game? Fine. But do that with new dungeons, and make sure they award legendary equipment or something really unique and cool for doing them. Like every other serious MMO out there does for the hardest content.
Good points here,
About Gear, -those who did run used "Elven" -gear, how to get that gear?
...and I looked video, it seems that last boss was challenge for this "high geared 2K" team, so it will be challenge for any normal team.
Difficulty seems to be there where it must be, impossible for most players and quite easy for special -groups (end boss).
Making videos for failures, , good idea, you just need join random queue and ask team to try end boss as legit... you know outcome.
Thread was started wording "Too easy" and now it is proven that they are easy for special groups not for majority of players, if we start new thread and claim "Too hard" then we must prove our point.
ps. Im happy with current difficulty set as long "Traven" jumps in pit and soon I have pve gear I wanted so I stop running dungeons what are not fun. Then TRickMireCrypts are fading history.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited September 2015
Ok, im sorry, but i need to comment on this stu... nvm.
About Gear, -those who did run used "Eleven" -gear, how to get that gear?
Elven*
And yes they did, its rhetorical, but i will answer that, they got it doing t2 dungs in legit way, but firstly, getting experience on first fails. I still remember 2/3 runs on legit and failed attempts on 3/3. but we LEARNED, and most of us got they t2 in mod6, with all those buggs around. Tho mostly doing eToS.
...and I looked video, it seems that last boss was challenge for this "high geared 2K" team, so it will be challenge for any normal team.
Challenge?
Ohh boy, they did it 4-man for christ sake, i wiped coz im damn rusty on my tr, as i have said, 4 mods almost without playing, if they would wiped and gave me second chance i belive we would easy do it 5man, instead they easly did it 4man. How can u call challenging something what was done 4-man, which is intended for 5 man, with minimal 2k gear (once again which does not mean optimal gear needed, just minimal)
Difficulty seems to be there where it must be, impossible for most players and quite easy for special -groups (end boss).
Its hard for ppl, who was doing it on exploits or wasnt doing it at all. U lack expiernece, probably lack right build too. U cant just pick up feats which sounds nice.
Making videos for failures, , good idea, you just need join random queue and ask team to try end boss as legit... you know outcome.
Watch above, most ppl r doing t2 dungs on cheat, and they mostly never bothered doing it legit, first players maybe, tho i can bet most of them was searching for bugs at that time (thats nature of NW players since beta) and then when new ppl joined t2, old showed them bugs, and its how its been since. They lack any kind of expierence, mostly with build and gear, partialy with dung itself. but actualy today one legit player teached pug group in ecc how to beat it. All u folks need to do is lisen smarter (in terms of experience) than u (first accept there r ppl like that).
Thread was started wording "Too easy" and now it is proven that they are easy for special groups not for majority of players, if we start new thread and claim "Too hard" then we must prove our point.
its not too hard to prove its too hard (lol), majority of players is not experienced, lazy, lack of skill or many other, or all above. if they cant put even tiny efford into learning how to play, they dont deserve t2 gear, Period.
Ok, im sorry, but i need to comment on this stu... nvm.
No need be sorry, I take my break.
Happy to help.
Cheers.
ps. looks like ArP. FIX works as intended if more players can run legit runs on eCC. and still I love way how "Traven" jumps in pit and how funny dungeon is when good TR do all trick´s only he can do, I love it.
All these "too easy" whiners need to understand a few simple concepts:
1) The previous difficulty was caused by a bug. It was not intended, it HAD to be fixed and no other change was applied to the enemies, there was no tweak to enemies stats or anything of the sort. 2) Risk vs Reward. The loot from dungeon delves is TERRIBLE, without a fully coordinated and well geared group they also drag out for too long (and if your group is very bad you can still wipe, yes I've seen it happen on Malabog and Valindra as well, thankfully I've been spared such sight in Lostmouth Lair yet). There is NO reason to warrant any kind of difficulty for such miserable reward/time played ratio. 3) It's old content, some of which was introduced over two years ago at release for pete's sake! Apart from final boss (and it's not like they were completely remade, they just got added a few abilities here and there to spice it up, but a lot of the old gimmicks are still there), everything else is just the old instance on steroids.
You want that kind of difficulty back in game? Fine. But do that with new dungeons, and make sure they award legendary equipment or something really unique and cool for doing them. Like every other serious MMO out there does for the hardest content.
Good points here,
About Gear, -those who did run used "Elven" -gear, how to get that gear?
...and I looked video, it seems that last boss was challenge for this "high geared 2K" team, so it will be challenge for any normal team.
Difficulty seems to be there where it must be, impossible for most players and quite easy for special -groups (end boss).
Making videos for failures, , good idea, you just need join random queue and ask team to try end boss as legit... you know outcome.
Thread was started wording "Too easy" and now it is proven that they are easy for special groups not for majority of players, if we start new thread and claim "Too hard" then we must prove our point.
ps. Im happy with current difficulty set as long "Traven" jumps in pit and soon I have pve gear I wanted so I stop running dungeons what are not fun. Then TRickMireCrypts are fading history.
heh, "Traven" jumps in pit as long Cryptic allows it, maybe they have reason "not to FIX"...
ps. need run it with "Blue bubble paladins" + DC to see how it work, no need do it anymore 2x seals did work.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
As you can see, the difference between the T1 version and the T2 version is: 414 hp 35 crit 23 arp 13 defense
This is less then 1% effectiveness of your total stat pool as a difference, assuming you had all the pieces like I did on my CW, its a total of just about a 1% difference, so we can easily see that having this gear or t1 gear would have NO IMPACT AT ALL on the effectiveness of the run. Even assuming it did somehow, anyone could have run etos a bunch of times and gotten your seals for the full set, before you did ecc. As for our other stats, maybe if instead of investing your stats willynilly into everything, you invested them into specific stats, your stats would look like ours. If you compare my stats to a BAD 3k player, my power and crit would look like theirs. If you compare my stats to a GOOD 3k player, well, I am about 15k power short and 3k crit. Take a look at CW's like Agathe Beaur or Ice Queen if you want to see what the gear on a good 3k+ player should look like.
The only special thing about our group is that we all know what we were doing. We could have beaten eCC before the bug was fixed with the same group, but how did we learn how to beat the dungeons, by failing and making intelligent deductions from each failure. When the module first came out, I failed at eCC for a total of 16 hours with a 2k group learning every single facet of that boss fight. Knowledge is not some niche resource that is only available to a select few but since mod 7 came around, half of the stuff I learned for that dungeon is irrelevant because now any 2k group of players with properly built chars who know what they are doing can beat it with no effort. You are completely ignoring the fact that if it is easy for us at 2k, just imagine what it is like at 5k. I am sure abbadon has already 2 manned ecc without a pally with some 5k dc/gf and there are probably paladins near 5k who have solod it as well. Even if only players who know what they doing find it effortless at 2k, the fact that it is now so accessible means there is no challenge higher up the ladder, what incentive do I have to gear up, if I know that I can beat the content with no effort at 2k anyhow?
As for random queue legit, well, I have done that 4 times already. I just random queue on my healer paladin and it doesn't matter what group I get for ecc, I just explain to them that the tank needs to use kv or the OP needs to use DP and with that damage mitigation, I can carry the group through. These days, it takes 1 knowledgeable player in a t2 group to be able to carry the group through, not 5 players working together.
You sir, are the worst example of what a casual player can be like and there are a lot of casual players I like and respect, because they are willing to accept that there are other ways of playing and they are willing to accept that non casual players also need content aimed towards them. Do you not agree, there should be content aimed to cater to hardcore players and do you not agree that out of all the content in the game, ecc was the most challenging? Now there is no content aimed towards those of us who are seeking a challenge, all the content is aimed towards you and don't say that you as a casual need that 1% effectiveness boost from the gear, that gear is essentially just a statement that you can beat a t2 dungeon, for all the effectiveness boost that it gives, a statement that is now meaningless due to how easy the dungeons have become. If you somehow believe that wearing gear that improves your effectiveness by 1% is huge enough to make the difference between a successful and a failed attempt, then that gear would be even less useful on your char then you realize.
Comments
I ran eToS with a legit party of GF, DC, TR and SW last night and we certainly didn't stroll through the last boss. There is still a challenge to be had, just depends on the group composition.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I would be down with that.
EDIT, Goober Award, nice idea,
, I like it and want get one,
Also did random runs and with randoms(if you are lucky to get queue pop up) those dungeons are still fun and hard because you never know what kind players you get in,
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
So, considering a kind of challenge was issued, we did a run without any Paladins, around 2k Item level. Group consisted of GF, DC, HR, CW, TR, so pretty 'rainbow', I'd say. No wipes, although we did lose our TR in the fight with Traven pretty early on. Still made it. Editing and uploading the video now.
Gear selection Feats/Boons is next step to help newcomers in this game so add some pics so new players can see what they are missing.
ArP. FIX is then working as it must,
While this is once again a setup with Alexa, Sharpedge (thefabricant) and myself (Aurelius), I know Sharp from previous runs and previous mods. I hadn't met Alexa before our little experiments in ECC. Zavria I do know, and is even on my friends list, but usually plays a GF or GWF. I hadn't even seen him on his TR before today. And - sorry, buddy XD - wasn't even part of the fight for that long.
That being said, I full well understand that this isn't just some ordinary team that came together through the dungeon queue system. We went in with the intent to beat this dungeon at around 2k IL. That's not something I've come to expect from the - often toxic - random queue. Zoning in at 2k IL would probably land you some abuse and people would coax you - or kick you, if people still can, heh - to leave.
The other side, however, is that this is considered 'end-game'. You wouldn't expect a group of completely strangers randomly thrown together via the queue system to face-roll this at 2k IL. At least, I wouldn't have before today. Yes, we were far more communitative than your average pug. Yes, I trusted the DC to heal me in time instead of darting over the map like all the Mod 2 HR's would've done when they pulled agro with Split Shot. Again, not something you would expect from a random group of people thrown together via the queue system. However, we didn't 'plan' anything before walking into Traven. You can hear Sharp talking about using Astral Shield right before he pops the keg. Then, because Astral Shield is dropped, he just popped the keg. I didn't expect it, but the audio-visual clues are enough to start dodging.
Now, while we might not expect these things to happen in a random, queue-made, pug, the question remains: Should dungeons be toned down to the level of the parties that comes out of the queue system *now*, or does the fault really lie with the people in that queue system that fail completely to communicate, are using all the 'wrong' skills for an encounter, and are more focused on exploiting the hell out of the terrain/map to win, than actually showing the slightest bit of cooperation? I mean, explaining an exploit to someone is just about as much work as telling someone where to stand, or to zig-zag through the room when Traven is using his firebombs, so you don't have to pop the keg every now and then.
And really, if this is easy - or, at least, relatively easy. Don't think any of us broke a sweat - for a group that barely meets the absolute minimum requirements to even zone in, why are groups of 3K Item Level somehow acting like they're 'forced' to use exploits, because it's too hard? After the fight, I stopped believing any of that, and that's what I mean with my earlier comment of 'At least, I wouldn't have before today'.
I also, however, recognize that I might be spoiled. I 'grew up' in the NW Legit Community, as it were. My first Epic dungeon runs were with groups formed in Legit. It was common practice for more experienced members of the party - or better geared - to ask the group if they were familiar with the fight, and took the time to explain mechanics and everyones role. Now, as mods progressed, that became less prevalent as everything became a total face-roll. I'm sure plenty of you remember someone in Frozen Heart kiting around the Golems and taking on the Goblin Archers. After a while, we just stopped caring, as Lifesteal took care of that. We all just happily slashed away at the boss, he died, we grabbed our loot and said our goodbyes.
My point in all this, at least when it comes to the previous paragraph, is that it's not unhealthy to review your own actions when claiming something is 'too hard'. Now, I'm absolutely *not* saying that any of you failed to do the following, and won't dismiss the role luck and lag sometimes play, but please, do hear me out:
1) Did you explain the fight?
2) Was everyone on board? Did everyone understand or at least signal to understand?
3) Was the failure human error, or did the game really 'screw you out of a win' via lag or a bug?
4) etc., etc.
And most of all: I'm posting this in the interest of discussion. Once again: I'm not telling people to 'L2P' or dismissing the fact that for some people this is hard. I'm sure it is. But I've completely stopped believing people claiming it's impossible and that you have to exploit it somehow, or that is has to be toned-down.
Apologies for the wall of text, though.
1) The previous difficulty was caused by a bug. It was not intended, it HAD to be fixed and no other change was applied to the enemies, there was no tweak to enemies stats or anything of the sort.
2) Risk vs Reward. The loot from dungeon delves is TERRIBLE, without a fully coordinated and well geared group they also drag out for too long (and if your group is very bad you can still wipe, yes I've seen it happen on Malabog and Valindra as well, thankfully I've been spared such sight in Lostmouth Lair yet). There is NO reason to warrant any kind of difficulty for such miserable reward/time played ratio.
3) It's old content, some of which was introduced over two years ago at release for pete's sake! Apart from final boss (and it's not like they were completely remade, they just got added a few abilities here and there to spice it up, but a lot of the old gimmicks are still there), everything else is just the old instance on steroids.
You want that kind of difficulty back in game? Fine. But do that with new dungeons, and make sure they award legendary equipment or something really unique and cool for doing them. Like every other serious MMO out there does for the hardest content.
I am not as nice as Aurelius, I will pull the l2p card, because quite frankly, building your char correctly with limited resources is as much a l2p issue as doing that fight is. You should not be able to take any group of characters, with any random build with any random stat allocation and do dungeons with them. The fact that you expect for people to be able to do t2 dungeons whilst playing a CW with 10k deflect and spamming repel + ice storm (an example) is as indicative that you have no interest in there being challenging content in the game, rather you want anyone to do it.
This content is easy. Build your character the way any sensible person would build their char at 2k ilvl and you will see this. If you having issues whilst spamming ice storm, maybe you should be looking to your own char, rather then towards the difficulty of the content.
The fact that this module I have had to do things like attempt 2 man egwd for a challenge is absurd. Wiped at the last boss and ultimately failed, but learned quite a bit in the process. Last module, I could run a dungeon with a proper party comp and I would get a challenge out of it.
Firstly:
1) First step of learning how to play is build ur toon correctly, before going into t2 u need to get t1 set, thats a must for new comers, most of those sets is not halfbad balanced, but just before that u need to pick up right build, ask friends, read forum, whatever, its a must. Then ofc artis, making one purple on double rp literaly cost u 1.5 stack of r5 + gmop, gmops may be hard to get at the begining, but in times when stacks of r5 cost under 10k outside of double rp one just need under 30k to at least refine to r59. 2 days of dong rhix dalies at right time (dd, shirmish, pvp). U can basicly buy 1x r7 per day doing only those dailies. Thats around 2 weeks to get ur set r7 + 4x r59 artis (make 3 classes up to r70 before u start gearing one, its important too, coz u learn what other classes can do, and how they play + 1 of 3 artis u get at the begining)
Getting SF asap is a good idea too, weap enchant can come later, especialy for classes like tank, heals and sidedmgs.
2) Now we have gear set up, also build and artis. What left is right rotation, not panicing, and do as much dungs as u can. Nobody of us was good player at start, to be fair my Zavria is my first toon i took to r60, i was always bad at playing her, and i just proved it ;p. Tho i was not playing her for like last 4 mods beside maybe couple pvp matches and 2 dungs in total (her t1 gear came from my gwf farming t2 liek crazy)? Right feats, right dailies, right encounter, right at-will and right rotation in using them, thats what makes player good. Sorry, but i still see gwf's using NSF for some reason, cant stop feeling sorry for them.
3) If u cant beat t2 dungs like we just did, u r simply bad players (yeah, yeah i died, i will go next time on Kain or zahhu to prove my words), as u can see we didnt use any "OP" combo, 4 of us never reached outside 2.5k on toons we took, and they, at the end, did it basicly 4man.
Instead of whining here, take a look at ur toons, learn to play, coz u definietly need it.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
My crit might be high, but my power is quite low. Actually, that 11k power is with the Cleric buff, too, who's giving me 1.8k. So, I'm at 10k power base. Overpowered, omg.
You know what: let's reverse the roles. We've been kind enough to keep showing what is asked of us. How about you make a video of your gear and/or a run of ECC so people can critique where you went wrong, instead of you constantly making up excuses as to why this isn't somehow legit?
About Gear, -those who did run used "Elven" -gear, how to get that gear?
...and I looked video, it seems that last boss was challenge for this "high geared 2K" team, so it will be challenge for any normal team.
Difficulty seems to be there where it must be, impossible for most players and quite easy for special -groups (end boss).
Making videos for failures,
Thread was started wording "Too easy" and now it is proven that they are easy for special groups not for majority of players, if we start new thread and claim "Too hard" then we must prove our point.
ps. Im happy with current difficulty set as long "Traven" jumps in pit and soon I have pve gear I wanted so I stop running dungeons what are not fun. Then TRickMireCrypts are fading history.
Ok, im sorry, but i need to comment on this stu... nvm. Elven*
And yes they did, its rhetorical, but i will answer that, they got it doing t2 dungs in legit way, but firstly, getting experience on first fails. I still remember 2/3 runs on legit and failed attempts on 3/3. but we LEARNED, and most of us got they t2 in mod6, with all those buggs around. Tho mostly doing eToS. Challenge?
Ohh boy, they did it 4-man for christ sake, i wiped coz im damn rusty on my tr, as i have said, 4 mods almost without playing, if they would wiped and gave me second chance i belive we would easy do it 5man, instead they easly did it 4man. How can u call challenging something what was done 4-man, which is intended for 5 man, with minimal 2k gear (once again which does not mean optimal gear needed, just minimal) Its hard for ppl, who was doing it on exploits or wasnt doing it at all. U lack expiernece, probably lack right build too. U cant just pick up feats which sounds nice. Watch above, most ppl r doing t2 dungs on cheat, and they mostly never bothered doing it legit, first players maybe, tho i can bet most of them was searching for bugs at that time (thats nature of NW players since beta) and then when new ppl joined t2, old showed them bugs, and its how its been since. They lack any kind of expierence, mostly with build and gear, partialy with dung itself. but actualy today one legit player teached pug group in ecc how to beat it. All u folks need to do is lisen smarter (in terms of experience) than u (first accept there r ppl like that).
its not too hard to prove its too hard (lol), majority of players is not experienced, lazy, lack of skill or many other, or all above. if they cant put even tiny efford into learning how to play, they dont deserve t2 gear, Period.
Gimme a break with post like that.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Happy to help.
Cheers.
ps. looks like ArP. FIX works as intended if more players can run legit runs on eCC. and still I love way how "Traven" jumps in pit and how funny dungeon is when good TR do all trick´s only he can do, I love it.
ps. need run it with "Blue bubble paladins" + DC to see how it work, no need do it anymore 2x seals did work.