Running with 2 Pallies who spam perma bubble, one GF with Knights Valor and HR spams fox cunning, then complaining about dungeon is too easy..... man, I'm speechless!
It's not the dungeons, it's the broken Pally daily. Without it you wouldn't successfully beat Traven!
God, I love these kinds of posts. They always sound like "Teamwork OP. Plz nerf". So, using skills that work well together and keep your team safe is now somehow considered... what actually?
--
On a more serious note: This run was fun. I'm the one who recorded it. Hadn't seriously played my HR in ages, hence his crappy gear. You can see me derp quite a few times. And that's part of the point: we were morons. We had no strategy, we had no communication and still managed to 3-man the fight for the longest time, with a GF, Healer Paladin and myself, the HR.
And it's not just about ECC. I consider ECC still the 'hardest' of the three T2's. EToS is a joke now, and I often tank it on my Devotion OP when with guildies or in Legit. Hell, even Galadedrid up there tanked EToS when I needed it for my HR, and there's a bit of a gear difference between our OP's. On the last run with my guild, we pulled 'Door-to-door', like in old Castle Never. We pulled everything from the last Drider to Syndryth's little arena.
GWD is just a long DPS check where you have to clear the Stormcaller before turning her back to her vulnerable mode. Actually, it's not even that. You can just kite the wolf away from her and off it, so you have longer. The only reason to fail is when people stand in the big red circles and die. Of course, that happens. In the video you can see me stand in red quite often, as I'm a moron and used to my Devotion OP, but that's human error and not 'omg it's so hard'.
ECC, well... The Paladin bubble made it pretty easy, I'll admit. But we weren't in any kind of trouble from the moment the Tank Paladin died, up until the moment our healer dropped - human error, not omgdifficult - which caused a bit of a chain reaction. I ran in with my guild today, first time since the ArP/DR fix. We had previously - before the fix - beaten it after multiple whipes. Once at the door this time, someone asked 'So, what's the strategy now?', to which 'Kill him' was basicly the answer. We ran in, sliced him up, grabbed our loot and walked out. No bubble-paladin present.
Now, I fully admit there's different skill levels - by which I do not mean a badly covered up 'L2P' - and that our gear on the guild run was far superior to the run on video here. I'm also fully aware the difficulty of these dungeons drove players away. That's saddening, and shouldn't have happened. However, I like a challenge, and for a while, I had that challenge. It felt like end-game where people had to be on their toes. So, to end this, please view this comment - at least MINE, as I do not speak for anyone but myself - not as a plea to turn *back* the nerf, but rather a wish to see an extra tier, as it were.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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yet another paladin complaining its too easy.... zzzz this is getting old.
It will be fixed sooner or later. Than we will hear a loud cry that OP's are nerfed and in need a buff... This is what's really getting old
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
Boooring....now its the gear that makes the game easy? Stupid argument. Sry.
It is. In almost every game like this. There's even a Gamer-ese term for it: "Power creep"...
...sure, sub-BiS good players can also win. but when the game gets too easy, switching to less powerful gear and/or to another char does make playing more challenging.
Why should i? Is it my fault if i make me a char that i like to play and gear the char so good as i can? Why should i ( im a CW Btw) play a class that i dont like? The game was challenging and after the fix it isnt anymore. Solution? Give the endgame players T3 dungeons with really tough trash/bossfights. And after the patch t3 dungeons casual players going to complain that they cant get t3 items, cuzz the dungoens are to hard (believe me...youll see). This game must satisfie both parties:
- casual fun gamer and - highend progress gamer
So give them highend gamers really hard dungeons with t3 and everybody is happy (except the casuals they think the "fun" argument is enough to get all items/ench they want ingame, but plz without any challenge...nc).
Did we speak MOD7 and MOD7 is -too easy or is it so that some content is BUGfixed way that players can complete them.
IDK.
MOD7 = Strongholds, Strongholds requirements = ridiculous amount repeats, Stronghold boons = anyone here count AD needed for them EASY, MEH.
MOD7 content in Strongholds are easy, but only exception is Dragonflight -event what is not easy for guilds what have 1 - 5 active players.
In MOD7 we got good FIX for ArP. bug for dungeons so they are more fun to run for major player base.
So overall MOD7 takes years to complete with current condition/grind system and option "Buy all with ZEN" has astronomical price...if we call that "TOO EASY", well maybe it is then easy...
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
gear matters and the performance can be very different, if u have good gears then stop complaining and let the new players enjoy their games cus it is still challenging to them.
The armpen is also a FIX not a NERF so get ur facts right, once again with or without the fix as long as the OP can keep the bubble up it doesnt really make much difference. I have the gear and I have finished eTOS ECC all under 15mins but I still find my fun running them.
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
Or you could notice what the thread is about and maybe watch the video to see what kind of gear we were using. All around 2k IL.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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OP + GF...mmmhhhh....and OP made most Damage....mmmhhh...Loop fixed?
The OP was using Binding Oath. Binding Oath damage done to oneself counts to Paingiver. You can also see he took millions upon millions of damage. Hence, paingiver.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
Or you could have a real challenge and wear rank 6 enchantments with no weapon enchantment, like I did in that video. You might have realised that if you watch the video instead of just seeing 2k run and then immediately assumed we took a really high geared character and then took off all their gear. We didn't, we took fresh level 70 toons with no boons. Oh, hang on, that wasn't challenging and we weren't even using rank 7's. There must be a problem here.....
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
Or you could have a real challenge and wear rank 6 enchantments with no weapon enchantment, like I did in that video. Oh, hang on, that wasn't challenging and we weren't even using rank 7's. There must be a problem here.....
Well, challenge is then make it difficult, no need fix broken class, just make team composition with gear what makes it not so easy....
...and MOD7 takes years to complete, so it is NOT easy.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
Or you could have a real challenge and wear rank 6 enchantments with no weapon enchantment, like I did in that video. Oh, hang on, that wasn't challenging and we weren't even using rank 7's. There must be a problem here.....
Well, challenge is then make it difficult, no need fix broken class, just make team composition with gear what makes it not so easy....
...and MOD7 takes years to complete, so it is NOT easy.
Challenging =/= Time comsuming. The mod 7 content you are referring to is a joke, seriously. There is nothing difficult about doing it, sure, it will take forever to do it, but that is besides the point. The mod 7 new content exists for casual players. I am referring to difficulty in its actual meaning, which is not the time it takes to do something, but the complexity of the task and the amount of skill required to complete it. A good analogy for mod 7 strongholds would be professions, it takes forever to get leadership to level 25, but there is nothing challenging about doing it.
And while 'naked runs', which I have done in the past in say... Castle Never, do increase the challenge, it's not the answer. The driving force behind RPGs is the constantly progressing character. You want to keep feeling more powerful, and want to keep slaying more challenging foes. Part of the reason Mod 6 drove away so many people was that as they increased in levels, their characters got progressively worse off, because of the new stat curves. I still fully support these new stats curves and the kind of 'reset' they pulled, but the sentiment still remains: 'Why keep playing if I'm actively making my character worse?'.
Add to that that the in-game economy and the Zen purchases are also based on catering to that sentiment of constant progression. Why spend money on a game that expects you to strip down to your undies if you want a challenge?
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
And while 'naked runs', which I have done in the past in say... Castle Never, do increase the challenge, it's not the answer. The driving force behind RPGs is the constantly progressing character. You want to keep feeling more powerful, and want to keep slaying more challenging foes. Part of the reason Mod 6 drove away so many people was that as they increased in levels, their characters got progressively worse off, because of the new stat curves. I still fully support these new stats curves and the kind of 'reset' they pulled, but the sentiment still remains: 'Why keep playing if I'm actively making my character worse?'.
Add to that that the in-game economy and the Zen purchases are also based on catering to that sentiment of constant progression. Why spend money on a game that expects you to strip down to your undies if you want a challenge?
Sidetrack: I am not sure why people thought that leveling made their characters worse. The main problem was that while they leveled, they did not upgrade their gear, which while leveling higher, you encounter higher level monsters. The new stats curve actually made it a whole lot easier to stack on stats. The new stats curves are a lot friendlier to stats which I think they will nerf it once players start getting the high boons from Stronghold. 100% crit change is just so awesome!
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
Sorry, but I call "bullsh*t" on any 2k party that finishes an Epic without exploiting something, be it "glitches" or "bugs" or whatever. Any way you look at it, it's an exploit and it's cheating.
I led a Guild party (plus a PuG in the fifth slot) through MC the other day. We were stopped at Malabog. Granted, there were some extenuating factors involved (like a general lack of a DC). However, my GWF sits at 2.8k ilvl, the SW is 2.9k, the CW is 2.5k, and the tank is at 2.1k. The players behind the GWF, SW and CW are all highly experienced MMOers and have been around NW from pretty much the beginning. We know how to play. In all theory, and according to various YouTube videos, we should have "breezed" through that dungeon... or at the very least, been able to carry the lower ilvls and less experienced players.
One of my high-ranking officers pugged eCC yesterday and was chastised for refusing to take part in exploiting the final boss. When he called them out on the cheating, the response was "that's the only way to win".
Well, not for him. Not for me, and certainly not for anyone in my Guild.
All-in-all, while easier, for myself and my guildmates, the epics are certainly not "too easy". In fact, we are still finding them in the range of "excruciatingly difficult" to "still impossible". But we are continuing to practice running them, all while improving on our characters, teamwork and having fun doing so.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Why should i? Is it my fault if i make me a char that i like to play and gear the char so good as i can? Why should i ( im a CW Btw) play a class that i dont like? The game was challenging and after the fix it isnt anymore. Solution? Give the endgame players T3 dungeons with really tough trash/bossfights. And after the patch t3 dungeons casual players going to complain that they cant get t3 items, cuzz the dungoens are to hard (believe me...youll see). This game must satisfie both parties:
- casual fun gamer and - highend progress gamer
So give them highend gamers really hard dungeons with t3 and everybody is happy (except the casuals they think the "fun" argument is enough to get all items/ench they want ingame, but plz without any challenge...nc).
Im fine with them adding in t3 dungeons for us that want a challenge, but you know what will happen? The same people that are currently saying that the t2's are too hard will say the t3's are too hard. It doesn't actually matter how rewarding the t3's are, if they can't do them, they will complain that there is content in the game that they can't do. They will never accept the idea that content should exist to challenge a certain demographic of players and be inaccessible to others, wanting all content to be homogenized.
and @instynctive please watch the video if you are so.."they must have exploited something, its not possible to do it legit". Refusing to watch the video and claiming its impossible and that exploits must be used only shows you to be a fool, not that its impossible. Atm, you are like a blind man claiming that colours do not exist purely because you cannot see them.
Sorry, but I call "bullsh*t" on any 2k party that finishes an Epic without exploiting something, be it "glitches" or "bugs" or whatever. Any way you look at it, it's an exploit and it's cheating.
I led a Guild party (plus a PuG in the fifth slot) through MC the other day. We were stopped at Malabog. Granted, there were some extenuating factors involved (like a general lack of a DC). However, my GWF sits at 2.8k ilvl, the SW is 2.9k, the CW is 2.5k, and the tank is at 2.1k. The players behind the GWF, SW and CW are all highly experienced MMOers and have been around NW from pretty much the beginning. We know how to play. In all theory, and according to various YouTube videos, we should have "breezed" through that dungeon... or at the very least, been able to carry the lower ilvls and less experienced players.
One of my high-ranking officers pugged eCC yesterday and was chastised for refusing to take part in exploiting the final boss. When he called them out on the cheating, the response was "that's the only way to win".
Well, not for him. Not for me, and certainly not for anyone in my Guild.
All-in-all, while easier, for myself and my guildmates, the epics are certainly not "too easy". In fact, we are still finding them in the range of "excruciatingly difficult" to "still impossible". But we are continuing to practice running them, all while improving on our characters, teamwork and having fun doing so.
Check the video's. Gear is shown. Of course, I can't read your mind on what you consider an exploit or bug abuse - if it's as tightly defined as anything that makes it easy (teamwork omg) or the barrier - but you can clearly see us three-manning him down quite a good way. And that's with three people! GF, Devotion OP and a HR.
On the second part of the post: I fully agree with you that exploiting by pulling him through the barrier is horrid and shouldn't be done. It's silly. Sadly, the community has always been about exploiting the hell out of dungeons for easy wins, as communicating and helping eachother has never been a forte. It's the single reason the NW Legit Community was started.
Also, might I ask when 'the other day' was? Before or after the ArP fix? Because the lack of a DC (which, I guess, means healer of any kind?) during something like the ArP bug would've been a painful experience, I agree. Not to mention Malabog is often refered to as Lagabog.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
and @instynctive please watch the video if you are so.."they must have exploited something, its not possible to do it legit". Refusing to watch the video and claiming its impossible and that exploits must be used only shows you to be a fool, not that its impossible. Atm, you are like a blind man claiming that colours do not exist purely because you cannot see them.
Name-calling is one of the first steps in defensive posturing. Also, assuming that I "refused" to watch the video is another folly.
I am speaking from my own experience, which includes the use of excellent players with decent equipment, and knowing for a fact that exploits weren't used.
I don't know you, therefore, I don't trust you. Period. Too many people in this game only beat Epic dungeons by way of cheating. If that's what they want to do, great! That's on them. But cheating one's way through otherwise difficult/impossible content does not give anyone the right to whine about the content being "too easy".
All-in-all, while easier, for myself and my guildmates, the epics are certainly not "too easy". In fact, we are still finding them in the range of "excruciatingly difficult" to "still impossible". But we are continuing to practice running them, all while improving on our characters, teamwork and having fun doing so.
I think you're hitting the nail on the head, here. You're having fun improving and standing up to the challenge. This is the point of a game. Progress, get better, beat it. That's fun.
Wouldn't you say this same kind of fun and challenge should be available to people who are eighter more geared - which does makes it easier, I agree - or are just more coordinated and skilled? Or search for a kind of optimal party setup? And please, don't take that last part as an insult. It's not intended as one! I consider myself a decent PvE player, but would still get my HAMSTER handed to me by seasoned PvPérs. It's how it is. Some people are better at things than others. It's not a L2P argument. I'd say I'm a decent Devotion OP, but a mediocre HR (as shown by the video's, where I derp so many times, it's just silly).
What I'm asking for - and, if I understand thefabricant correctly - so are others, is that there's a tiering of challenges. When T2's are still challenging for you and your guild, that's fine. That's fun! Like you said, you're improving to face up to the challenge. However, I'd like to have the same. I'd like to have something I can look forward to beating. When this mod just dropped, ECC was a total pain in the behind. I, together with a band of other very experienced players, went to ECC to try and beat it. While frustrating after a while, because you'd suddenly get one-shot by an archer, it was a positive kind of feeling: not facerolling my keyboard while everything around me died. Like I mentioned earlier: my guild run of ECC was ten-times easier because we were geared. We walked in, smashed him, grabbed our loot and walked out.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
and @instynctive please watch the video if you are so.."they must have exploited something, its not possible to do it legit". Refusing to watch the video and claiming its impossible and that exploits must be used only shows you to be a fool, not that its impossible. Atm, you are like a blind man claiming that colours do not exist purely because you cannot see them.
Name-calling is one of the first steps in defensive posturing. Also, assuming that I "refused" to watch the video is another folly.
I am speaking from my own experience, which includes the use of excellent players with decent equipment, and knowing for a fact that exploits weren't used.
I don't know you, therefore, I don't trust you. Period. Too many people in this game only beat Epic dungeons by way of cheating. If that's what they want to do, great! That's on them. But cheating one's way through otherwise difficult/impossible content does not give anyone the right to whine about the content being "too easy".
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, but here are some matters lets get clear first as they are a matter of definitions.
1) As from what I can see, you define impossible as anything you cannot do, rather then something that cannot possibly be done. I say this because there is quite clearly evidence there showing that it is possible and yet you are claiming it is impossible.
2) You are defining an exploit as completing content that you have defined as impossible. Since it is evident that you believe things that you cannot do to be impossible, therefore, you believe that anyone doing anything you cannot do, is exploiting.
3) Your definition of excellent players is the best players you know. How do you know they are excellent, are they excellent in comparison to you, or how exactly are you measuring them. I am definitely not the best player out there, I make a lot of mistakes, but I know that for me, the tier 2 dungeons are easy now. CW's like agathe beaur and chem were quite a bit better then me I would say and I am sure there are some pvp CW's as well and I am sure if you were to ask them were they still around, they would probably agree on the difficulty of the dungeons now.
As to the difficulty of the mod 7 dungeons, well, you don't even need a tank or healer for etos anymore ffs and definitely not for t1's. In the case of GWD and eCC, you do still need a tank and a healer, but they are definitely not challenging anymore. Yesterday, I did 7 legit clears of eCC with a total of 3 wipes in all of them, obviously I did not run with a 2k group in all those cases, its not something you do all the time, but in comparison to mod 6, when I did legit clears, it was something groups prepared for. Now, its a case of there is no preparation, I slap together a bunch of people from my friends list and jump into eCC. Last mod, we wiped 6/7 times on the last boss and it was challenging. It was fun to run and I felt good when I beat it. Now, that sense of achievement was gone. It is just another dungeon among the others. At the end of the day, its easy for me to prove my point. I can take you through any dungeon in the game in mod 7 if you really wanted to, you could even stand around and not hit anything and the group I formed could still finish the dungeon. However, as we have established, you do not want to believe.
This however, you cannot deny, disbelieve, or disprove. I Find the dungeons too easy in mod 7 and there are other players like me who feel the same way. If you deny this, you are claiming that we have no opinion, do not exist and are merely a figment of your imagination. Those of us who did like the level of challenge mod 6 presented, would like that challenge to continue to exist in some form or another. I don't care if it is a new dungeon that is like it, or if the current ones get made challenging again, I want content that was that hard. I dare you to tell me that I do not feel this way, because doing so would undermine all your credibility.
*edit* Also, I do apologize for being rather aggressive in the way I write, I can be rather impassioned and opinionated, @jaegernl is much better at getting across the points I intend. You really should listen to what he says though, his arguments are much better structured then mine.
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
So the fact that the OP tank died early in the first run is highlighted but guess what, you still had another bloody OP in the party and a healer to boot! Even at low ilvl OPs are seriously broken, which is why you guys managed to last so long against Traven first time. Once again your arguments are invalid. Try this again without an OP tank or healer and see how you fare then. I predict a fail of epic proportions
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Argument invalid? Is the Paladin class somehow not available to you or your party?
And, just to get this clear... Because there was a Paladin T2's are not easier? Alright, awesome. So, at which class are we drawing the line now? Which classes can be in the party before it's defined 'hard' or 'easy'? Let's do a 3x naked level 50 SW run of the non-epic TOS. Oh my word, it's not as easy as it was before! Help!
It seems to me people are grasping at straws now and are desperatly trying to play down their own failures, while we've been completely reasonable. But hey, such is human nature.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
So yesterday we got the same constellation of the video together and did ecc egwd and etos pulling all the mobs boss to boss. Okay some people died because there was no communication like wait for me but nobody had to respawn at campfire at any time. In gwd boss fight was like 18 minutes and I had like 30 seconds delay because of laggy and buggy paladin "synergies". Still first try success. I personally do not think t2 are too easy, you can just get that big advantage of the over powered paladin classes. If you want to we can start our 5 man no paladin try today, maybe this will change my opinion as for my SW this is still tough I think.
I like a challenge. The challenge has been removed. Please bring back the challenge.
This is great news!!!
We like challenge and completion, we dont like impossible missions.
Can you post team composition, boons, gear/artifact etc. we will do that kind teams after maintenance and make NEW LEgit runs for ECC... maybe we can make even new videos for it, .
Need know "How to do this dungeon EASY".
ps. why it took that long FIX bugs what make so many players gave up this game?
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited September 2015
not commenting about this group but T2 should be cake if anyone has a 2 OP 1 DC infinite bubble +empowered astral shield combo, heck even if there is a T3 T4 instance they will probably still be cake...
and @instynctive please watch the video if you are so.."they must have exploited something, its not possible to do it legit". Refusing to watch the video and claiming its impossible and that exploits must be used only shows you to be a fool, not that its impossible. Atm, you are like a blind man claiming that colours do not exist purely because you cannot see them.
Name-calling is one of the first steps in defensive posturing. Also, assuming that I "refused" to watch the video is another folly.
I am speaking from my own experience, which includes the use of excellent players with decent equipment, and knowing for a fact that exploits weren't used.
I don't know you, therefore, I don't trust you. Period. Too many people in this game only beat Epic dungeons by way of cheating. If that's what they want to do, great! That's on them. But cheating one's way through otherwise difficult/impossible content does not give anyone the right to whine about the content being "too easy".
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, but here are some matters lets get clear first as they are a matter of definitions.
1) As from what I can see, you define impossible as anything you cannot do, rather then something that cannot possibly be done. I say this because there is quite clearly evidence there showing that it is possible and yet you are claiming it is impossible.
2) You are defining an exploit as completing content that you have defined as impossible. Since it is evident that you believe things that you cannot do to be impossible, therefore, you believe that anyone doing anything you cannot do, is exploiting.
3) Your definition of excellent players is the best players you know. How do you know they are excellent, are they excellent in comparison to you, or how exactly are you measuring them. I am definitely not the best player out there, I make a lot of mistakes, but I know that for me, the tier 2 dungeons are easy now. CW's like agathe beaur and chem were quite a bit better then me I would say and I am sure there are some pvp CW's as well and I am sure if you were to ask them were they still around, they would probably agree on the difficulty of the dungeons now.
As to the difficulty of the mod 7 dungeons, well, you don't even need a tank or healer for etos anymore ffs and definitely not for t1's. In the case of GWD and eCC, you do still need a tank and a healer, but they are definitely not challenging anymore. Yesterday, I did 7 legit clears of eCC with a total of 3 wipes in all of them, obviously I did not run with a 2k group in all those cases, its not something you do all the time, but in comparison to mod 6, when I did legit clears, it was something groups prepared for. Now, its a case of there is no preparation, I slap together a bunch of people from my friends list and jump into eCC. Last mod, we wiped 6/7 times on the last boss and it was challenging. It was fun to run and I felt good when I beat it. Now, that sense of achievement was gone. It is just another dungeon among the others. At the end of the day, its easy for me to prove my point. I can take you through any dungeon in the game in mod 7 if you really wanted to, you could even stand around and not hit anything and the group I formed could still finish the dungeon. However, as we have established, you do not want to believe.
This however, you cannot deny, disbelieve, or disprove. I Find the dungeons too easy in mod 7 and there are other players like me who feel the same way. If you deny this, you are claiming that we have no opinion, do not exist and are merely a figment of your imagination. Those of us who did like the level of challenge mod 6 presented, would like that challenge to continue to exist in some form or another. I don't care if it is a new dungeon that is like it, or if the current ones get made challenging again, I want content that was that hard. I dare you to tell me that I do not feel this way, because doing so would undermine all your credibility.
*edit* Also, I do apologize for being rather aggressive in the way I write, I can be rather impassioned and opinionated, @jaegernl is much better at getting across the points I intend. You really should listen to what he says though, his arguments are much better structured then mine.
I was fighting myself to not reply to this tread anymore, but here goes...
We all get your point guys: you're good, we're bad - cool!
You want a challenge, you don't have one - that's bad and I hope the dev's will give you the challenge you need in future mods and whatnot.
Still majority of the players are enjoying the after-nerf dungeons and looks like you super hero guys have to deal with it.
So build up your chars and wait patiently for the future more HAMSTER and challenging mods/dungeons - do them in one week and come here asking for T5's...Jesus !
That's it I'm done. Sorry for being rude.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Comments
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On a more serious note: This run was fun. I'm the one who recorded it. Hadn't seriously played my HR in ages, hence his crappy gear. You can see me derp quite a few times. And that's part of the point: we were morons. We had no strategy, we had no communication and still managed to 3-man the fight for the longest time, with a GF, Healer Paladin and myself, the HR.
And it's not just about ECC. I consider ECC still the 'hardest' of the three T2's. EToS is a joke now, and I often tank it on my Devotion OP when with guildies or in Legit. Hell, even Galadedrid up there tanked EToS when I needed it for my HR, and there's a bit of a gear difference between our OP's. On the last run with my guild, we pulled 'Door-to-door', like in old Castle Never. We pulled everything from the last Drider to Syndryth's little arena.
GWD is just a long DPS check where you have to clear the Stormcaller before turning her back to her vulnerable mode. Actually, it's not even that. You can just kite the wolf away from her and off it, so you have longer. The only reason to fail is when people stand in the big red circles and die. Of course, that happens. In the video you can see me stand in red quite often, as I'm a moron and used to my Devotion OP, but that's human error and not 'omg it's so hard'.
ECC, well... The Paladin bubble made it pretty easy, I'll admit. But we weren't in any kind of trouble from the moment the Tank Paladin died, up until the moment our healer dropped - human error, not omgdifficult - which caused a bit of a chain reaction. I ran in with my guild today, first time since the ArP/DR fix. We had previously - before the fix - beaten it after multiple whipes. Once at the door this time, someone asked 'So, what's the strategy now?', to which 'Kill him' was basicly the answer. We ran in, sliced him up, grabbed our loot and walked out. No bubble-paladin present.
Now, I fully admit there's different skill levels - by which I do not mean a badly covered up 'L2P' - and that our gear on the guild run was far superior to the run on video here. I'm also fully aware the difficulty of these dungeons drove players away. That's saddening, and shouldn't have happened. However, I like a challenge, and for a while, I had that challenge. It felt like end-game where people had to be on their toes. So, to end this, please view this comment - at least MINE, as I do not speak for anyone but myself - not as a plea to turn *back* the nerf, but rather a wish to see an extra tier, as it were.
This is what's really getting old
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
...press [C] to open char sheet. Starting on the upper left hand corner ("Head") right-click the slotted item, choose "Manage item enchantments", select "Remove enchantment intact", sell R12 on AH. Socket with R7 of the same colour. Presto! challenge...
Alternatively, you can roll a new char and just play the game without "help from friends in high places"...
...sure, sub-BiS good players can also win. but when the game gets too easy, switching to less powerful gear and/or to another char does make playing more challenging.
This game must satisfie both parties:
- casual fun gamer
and
- highend progress gamer
So give them highend gamers really hard dungeons with t3 and everybody is happy (except the casuals they think the "fun" argument is enough to get all items/ench they want ingame, but plz without any challenge...nc).
IDK.
MOD7 = Strongholds, Strongholds requirements = ridiculous amount repeats, Stronghold boons = anyone here count AD needed for them EASY, MEH.
MOD7 content in Strongholds are easy, but only exception is Dragonflight -event what is not easy for guilds what have 1 - 5 active players.
In MOD7 we got good FIX for ArP. bug for dungeons so they are more fun to run for major player base.
So overall MOD7 takes years to complete with current condition/grind system and option "Buy all with ZEN" has astronomical price...if we call that "TOO EASY", well maybe it is then easy...
The armpen is also a FIX not a NERF so get ur facts right, once again with or without the fix as long as the OP can keep the bubble up it doesnt really make much difference. I have the gear and I have finished eTOS ECC all under 15mins but I still find my fun running them.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
...and MOD7 takes years to complete, so it is NOT easy.
Add to that that the in-game economy and the Zen purchases are also based on catering to that sentiment of constant progression. Why spend money on a game that expects you to strip down to your undies if you want a challenge?
I am not sure why people thought that leveling made their characters worse. The main problem was that while they leveled, they did not upgrade their gear, which while leveling higher, you encounter higher level monsters. The new stats curve actually made it a whole lot easier to stack on stats. The new stats curves are a lot friendlier to stats which I think they will nerf it once players start getting the high boons from Stronghold. 100% crit change is just so awesome!
I led a Guild party (plus a PuG in the fifth slot) through MC the other day. We were stopped at Malabog. Granted, there were some extenuating factors involved (like a general lack of a DC). However, my GWF sits at 2.8k ilvl, the SW is 2.9k, the CW is 2.5k, and the tank is at 2.1k. The players behind the GWF, SW and CW are all highly experienced MMOers and have been around NW from pretty much the beginning. We know how to play. In all theory, and according to various YouTube videos, we should have "breezed" through that dungeon... or at the very least, been able to carry the lower ilvls and less experienced players.
One of my high-ranking officers pugged eCC yesterday and was chastised for refusing to take part in exploiting the final boss. When he called them out on the cheating, the response was "that's the only way to win".
Well, not for him. Not for me, and certainly not for anyone in my Guild.
All-in-all, while easier, for myself and my guildmates, the epics are certainly not "too easy". In fact, we are still finding them in the range of "excruciatingly difficult" to "still impossible". But we are continuing to practice running them, all while improving on our characters, teamwork and having fun doing so.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
and @instynctive please watch the video if you are so.."they must have exploited something, its not possible to do it legit". Refusing to watch the video and claiming its impossible and that exploits must be used only shows you to be a fool, not that its impossible. Atm, you are like a blind man claiming that colours do not exist purely because you cannot see them.
On the second part of the post: I fully agree with you that exploiting by pulling him through the barrier is horrid and shouldn't be done. It's silly. Sadly, the community has always been about exploiting the hell out of dungeons for easy wins, as communicating and helping eachother has never been a forte. It's the single reason the NW Legit Community was started.
Also, might I ask when 'the other day' was? Before or after the ArP fix? Because the lack of a DC (which, I guess, means healer of any kind?) during something like the ArP bug would've been a painful experience, I agree. Not to mention Malabog is often refered to as Lagabog.
I am speaking from my own experience, which includes the use of excellent players with decent equipment, and knowing for a fact that exploits weren't used.
I don't know you, therefore, I don't trust you. Period. Too many people in this game only beat Epic dungeons by way of cheating. If that's what they want to do, great! That's on them. But cheating one's way through otherwise difficult/impossible content does not give anyone the right to whine about the content being "too easy".
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Wouldn't you say this same kind of fun and challenge should be available to people who are eighter more geared - which does makes it easier, I agree - or are just more coordinated and skilled? Or search for a kind of optimal party setup? And please, don't take that last part as an insult. It's not intended as one! I consider myself a decent PvE player, but would still get my HAMSTER handed to me by seasoned PvPérs. It's how it is. Some people are better at things than others. It's not a L2P argument. I'd say I'm a decent Devotion OP, but a mediocre HR (as shown by the video's, where I derp so many times, it's just silly).
What I'm asking for - and, if I understand thefabricant correctly - so are others, is that there's a tiering of challenges. When T2's are still challenging for you and your guild, that's fine. That's fun! Like you said, you're improving to face up to the challenge. However, I'd like to have the same. I'd like to have something I can look forward to beating. When this mod just dropped, ECC was a total pain in the behind. I, together with a band of other very experienced players, went to ECC to try and beat it. While frustrating after a while, because you'd suddenly get one-shot by an archer, it was a positive kind of feeling: not facerolling my keyboard while everything around me died. Like I mentioned earlier: my guild run of ECC was ten-times easier because we were geared. We walked in, smashed him, grabbed our loot and walked out.
1) As from what I can see, you define impossible as anything you cannot do, rather then something that cannot possibly be done. I say this because there is quite clearly evidence there showing that it is possible and yet you are claiming it is impossible.
2) You are defining an exploit as completing content that you have defined as impossible. Since it is evident that you believe things that you cannot do to be impossible, therefore, you believe that anyone doing anything you cannot do, is exploiting.
3) Your definition of excellent players is the best players you know. How do you know they are excellent, are they excellent in comparison to you, or how exactly are you measuring them. I am definitely not the best player out there, I make a lot of mistakes, but I know that for me, the tier 2 dungeons are easy now. CW's like agathe beaur and chem were quite a bit better then me I would say and I am sure there are some pvp CW's as well and I am sure if you were to ask them were they still around, they would probably agree on the difficulty of the dungeons now.
As to the difficulty of the mod 7 dungeons, well, you don't even need a tank or healer for etos anymore ffs and definitely not for t1's. In the case of GWD and eCC, you do still need a tank and a healer, but they are definitely not challenging anymore. Yesterday, I did 7 legit clears of eCC with a total of 3 wipes in all of them, obviously I did not run with a 2k group in all those cases, its not something you do all the time, but in comparison to mod 6, when I did legit clears, it was something groups prepared for. Now, its a case of there is no preparation, I slap together a bunch of people from my friends list and jump into eCC. Last mod, we wiped 6/7 times on the last boss and it was challenging. It was fun to run and I felt good when I beat it. Now, that sense of achievement was gone. It is just another dungeon among the others. At the end of the day, its easy for me to prove my point. I can take you through any dungeon in the game in mod 7 if you really wanted to, you could even stand around and not hit anything and the group I formed could still finish the dungeon. However, as we have established, you do not want to believe.
This however, you cannot deny, disbelieve, or disprove. I Find the dungeons too easy in mod 7 and there are other players like me who feel the same way. If you deny this, you are claiming that we have no opinion, do not exist and are merely a figment of your imagination. Those of us who did like the level of challenge mod 6 presented, would like that challenge to continue to exist in some form or another. I don't care if it is a new dungeon that is like it, or if the current ones get made challenging again, I want content that was that hard. I dare you to tell me that I do not feel this way, because doing so would undermine all your credibility.
*edit* Also, I do apologize for being rather aggressive in the way I write, I can be rather impassioned and opinionated, @jaegernl is much better at getting across the points I intend. You really should listen to what he says though, his arguments are much better structured then mine.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
And, just to get this clear... Because there was a Paladin T2's are not easier? Alright, awesome. So, at which class are we drawing the line now? Which classes can be in the party before it's defined 'hard' or 'easy'? Let's do a 3x naked level 50 SW run of the non-epic TOS. Oh my word, it's not as easy as it was before! Help!
It seems to me people are grasping at straws now and are desperatly trying to play down their own failures, while we've been completely reasonable. But hey, such is human nature.
I like a challenge. The challenge has been removed. Please bring back the challenge.
I personally do not think t2 are too easy, you can just get that big advantage of the over powered paladin classes. If you want to we can start our 5 man no paladin try today, maybe this will change my opinion as for my SW this is still tough I think.
We like challenge and completion, we dont like impossible missions.
Can you post team composition, boons, gear/artifact etc. we will do that kind teams after maintenance and make NEW LEgit runs for ECC... maybe we can make even new videos for it,
Need know "How to do this dungeon EASY".
ps. why it took that long FIX bugs what make so many players gave up this game?
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
We all get your point guys: you're good, we're bad - cool!
You want a challenge, you don't have one - that's bad and I hope the dev's will give you the challenge you need in
future mods and whatnot.
Still majority of the players are enjoying the after-nerf dungeons and looks like you super hero guys have to deal with it.
So build up your chars and wait patiently for the future more HAMSTER and challenging mods/dungeons - do them in one week and come here asking for T5's...Jesus !
That's it I'm done. Sorry for being rude.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"