Its obvious we need t3 dungeons for highend gamers. But....lemme think... After they brought us t3 dungeons with super tough bosses our casuality fraction is complaining again, because they cant get best items from t3 and they cant defeat any boss. Bet anyone?
Fixing this bug was needed - I would never want it to come back again - current situation is better, than it was before, it was just too much. The thing is that from "I have 16k defense, 160k HP + temp, 60% DR - and still being randomly OHK'ed behind the shield" we now have "I have 16k defense, 160k HP + temp, 60% DR - and after getting hit by everything game threw at me I havent lost even 10% temp HP" - GFs have similar problems too. I dont like the idea talking about player as about its iLvL, since its very lacking, but if skill and gear quality scaled with iLvL this is current situation - we have PvE content from 0-2.5k, but max iLvL is about 4.5. What about 2.5-4.5k? No content - you have to strip and gimp yourself and that kills the fun and feel of challenge.
P.S. The nerf was 25%, so before that mobs hit 33% harder than now - that would be better.
I agree. And to tackle the issue game has to have harder dungeons to feed those better geared folks for which ECC/EGWD is not a challenge anymore. I also made ECC and ETOS few times after the patch. And it was done with PUG's to made it potentially more challenging. It was way easier than before. But this is probably due to the fact that the bug is gone.
I remember when mob HP was increased. We hit the Enforcer (or whatever the elite mob in ECC is called) much longer than we should just to kill it. I'm sure many of players wouldn't call this a challenge...I would rather vote for making harder dungeons harder because of mob damage, attack speed etc. Making them a HP sponges is not the solution.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Its obvious we need t3 dungeons for highend gamers.
But....lemme think...
After they brought us t3 dungeons with super tough bosses our casuality fraction is complaining again, because they cant get best items from t3 and they cant defeat any boss. Bet anyone?
No need to bet on this one - it will happen. Humans are humans, we will complain no matter what. What I don't understand is that at beta stage, there was no complains that game is too easy.
What changed?
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
The whole modul5 was a complaint. Everyone said if modul 6 is easy as the mod 5 they will quit. I was one of them. Module 5? Get nuff CWs for dungoens. No DC needed. No Tanks needed. Rushing from boss to boss. Dont care about trash. Every gimp with decent gear made dungeons like CN solo. Dumbest module ever. Now you need things like good gear, skill and a good grp play. Wow...what a surprise.
I'm not talking about mod5 (wasn't here when it happened BTW). I'm saying about times before Sharandar when we had the game at it infancy. We had a lot of dungeons, from easy ones like PK to the best and most challenging ones like CN or DV.
I can't remember any complains about the dungeons back there. Maybe it's simply because there was a spot for anyone. Now we have only few available so no wonder people get mad.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Its obvious we need t3 dungeons for highend gamers.
But....lemme think...
After they brought us t3 dungeons with super tough bosses our casuality fraction is complaining again, because they cant get best items from t3 and they cant defeat any boss. Bet anyone?
Just going to point out that by far the group that is outnumbered is people like OP. Gating gear behind a challenge for players that make up a fraction of a percentage point of the player base makes no sense. The main problem isn't that it's too easy it's that there isn't anything to progress to past T2. So crying for T2 to be harder is just going to compound that problem but it's fine for people like OP because they get their private playground. T3 would fix that problem as long as you could run it with T2 gear.
Just going to point out that by far the group that is outnumbered is people like OP. Gating gear behind a challenge for players that make up a fraction of a percentage point of the player base makes no sense. The main problem isn't that it's too easy it's that there isn't anything to progress to past T2. So crying for T2 to be harder is just going to compound that problem but it's fine for people like OP because they get their private playground. T3 would fix that problem as long as you could run it with T2 gear.
I think "fraction of a percentage" is a serious underestimation of amount of people that are on end game level/are interested (build towards) being there. Also, nobody is talking about coming back to pre-bug fix times - it was challenging, true, but it was challenging in wrong way - I dont think anybody complaining that "game is too easy" now wants the fix to be reverted - we do want, however, the peak of difficulty to be higher. I dont know how advanced is revamp of old dungeons - if its pretty far I think it would be better to wait for T3, rather than rebalancing current T2s and delaying mod 8 introduction.
Also - outnumbered does not always mean ignored. End gamers, talking about difficulty, are always minority, pretty much by definition - yet still they are important part of most successful MMOs. You know whats one of the biggest complaint of GW2? Lack of endgame content - and thats what they dedicated the whole upcoming expansion for. Its even more important in F2P model MMOs, since gearing up comes with spending money, in many cases, because end-game is target people are incentivized to achieve - and why would you spend money if your current gear allows you to do everything? Devs tried to introduce end game in mod 6 but failed in several major aspects - the change was too rapid, it affected too many areas (should affect T2s and, to lesser extend, T1s only, for sure not leveling/campaign zones) and it brought absolutely no rewards. Apparently they got the lesson and are gradually changing that for good - however now end-game content is gone again.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Erm, Tiamat anyone? Isn't that still the most challenging content in the game? I've done a couple of runs since Mod 6 launch and we haven't gotten close to winning even once.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
> @lirithiel said: > now end-game content is gone again. > > > > Erm, Tiamat anyone? Isn't that still the most challenging content in the game? I've done a couple of runs since Mod 6 launch and we haven't gotten close to winning even once.
If you are in a Tiamat channel, tiamat is no challenge at all. And fyi: Tiamat is an encounter, not a content. And tiamat is not a challenge if you got decent players in your instance. The challenge is to join in a instance without only fire campers. So: No challenge, just a matter of luck.
Just going to point out that by far the group that is outnumbered is people like OP. Gating gear behind a challenge for players that make up a fraction of a percentage point of the player base makes no sense. The main problem isn't that it's too easy it's that there isn't anything to progress to past T2. So crying for T2 to be harder is just going to compound that problem but it's fine for people like OP because they get their private playground. T3 would fix that problem as long as you could run it with T2 gear.
Current T2´s trash mobs are now fine and endbosses without "broken" classes are good(still hard).
Well, make T4 dungeons and make sure that mobs has all stuff boosted 5x from T2,
then good reward will be "T4 Dungeoneering" -badge, just name because Real Endgamer dont need gear,
They run content because it is demanding, they run content lower gear than required, so they need just name and in that name what is their reward put also "Done this XX -times".
Now they can show their name and bolster how good they are, yes?!
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
The thing is that from "I have 16k defense, 160k HP + temp, 60% DR - and still being randomly OHK'ed behind the shield" we now have "I have 16k defense, 160k HP + temp, 60% DR - and after getting hit by everything game threw at me I havent lost even 10% temp HP" - GFs have similar problems too. .
You have what?? And temp too! GFs do have problems!
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
Gear is not a major factor compared to group composition and skill. The problem here is that there is no end game content. There is no reason to improve your gear. T1 gear is good enough to do all PvE. T2s aren't really an upgrade, and in most cases is probably a downgrade. Very few people pay attention to their stats so even though they are "upgrading" they are actually downgrading.
What's the point in getting enchantments higher than r7s or 8s when you can already do all environments efficiently that way. There is no progression/end game. The dungeons are always the same, there is no randomization to make each run different enough so that is not another cookie cutter run.
As mentioned tiamat itself is not difficult at all. The difficulty lies in entering the right instance. When you have 25 coordinated players, tiamat is a cake walk.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
What's the point in getting enchantments higher than r7s or 8s when you can already do all environments efficiently that way. There is no progression/end game. The dungeons are always the same, there is no randomization to make each run different enough so that is not another cookie cutter run.
As mentioned tiamat itself is not difficult at all. The difficulty lies in entering the right instance. When you have 25 coordinated players, tiamat is a cake walk.
(off-topic, about tiamat) Well, about Tiamat, it was and still is - just lucky game to get team who can beat it. Tiamat is just RNG -encounter where players suffer, I did that fight few times after mod5.... I dont do that anymore, only challenge is jump in and out untill get good looking team.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
Well you were running with 2 OPs so your argument is invalid.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
Well you were running with 2 OPs so your argument is invalid.
I knew you were going to say that, not to worry though, fortunately for you, I found myself a decent gf again ( the one in the video) and so I intend to get a run with no pallies as well as a run with only 3 people, which I will also have videod. As for it being invalid, well, in the first video you can see we survived quite comfortably for a long while without a bubble, indicating it is not truly necessary. The point is though, these dungeons are too easy. You won't struggle to find players with the gear we had in that video and when we do the vid without pallies, the gear will be no different. There should be some challenging content in this game and if the hardest dungeons in this game aren't truly challenging even at the minimum ilvl requirement, then something is wrong with them and they are too easy.
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
Well you were running with 2 OPs so your argument is invalid.
I knew you were going to say that, not to worry though, fortunately for you, I found myself a decent gf again ( the one in the video) and so I intend to get a run with no pallies as well as a run with only 3 people, which I will also have videod. As for it being invalid, well, in the first video you can see we survived quite comfortably for a long while without a bubble, indicating it is not truly necessary. The point is though, these dungeons are too easy. You won't struggle to find players with the gear we had in that video and when we do the vid without pallies, the gear will be no different. There should be some challenging content in this game and if the hardest dungeons in this game aren't truly challenging even at the minimum ilvl requirement, then something is wrong with them and they are too easy.
Then I will reserve any further judgment until I see your video of a legit eCC run without any OPs.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
Well you were running with 2 OPs so your argument is invalid.
I knew you were going to say that, not to worry though, fortunately for you, I found myself a decent gf again ( the one in the video) and so I intend to get a run with no pallies as well as a run with only 3 people, which I will also have videod. As for it being invalid, well, in the first video you can see we survived quite comfortably for a long while without a bubble, indicating it is not truly necessary. The point is though, these dungeons are too easy. You won't struggle to find players with the gear we had in that video and when we do the vid without pallies, the gear will be no different. There should be some challenging content in this game and if the hardest dungeons in this game aren't truly challenging even at the minimum ilvl requirement, then something is wrong with them and they are too easy.
Then I will reserve any further judgment until I see your video of a legit eCC run without any OPs.
Or hardcore PTW BiS PvP'ers. I still have the unshakable belief that PvP should exist on its own private PvP-only server, with its own rules.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
0
onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
You missed the point. The higher tier dungeons can already be done with T1 gear and lower level enchants. There's not much incentive of getting better gear other than making the runs more efficient. Then, once you reach that efficiency point, there is nothing else to do. We need more end game content that has replay ability that is fun/rewarding that keeps players wanting to do dungeons or events even after they hit that efficiency cap point.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Well, here are those videos I promised, take note in the failed attempt, the paladin was dead for a very long time and we were still able to continue. We could probably have done it straight up without the bubble quite easily and had a 3rd dps:
Well you were running with 2 OPs so your argument is invalid.
I knew you were going to say that, not to worry though, fortunately for you, I found myself a decent gf again ( the one in the video) and so I intend to get a run with no pallies as well as a run with only 3 people, which I will also have videod. As for it being invalid, well, in the first video you can see we survived quite comfortably for a long while without a bubble, indicating it is not truly necessary. The point is though, these dungeons are too easy. You won't struggle to find players with the gear we had in that video and when we do the vid without pallies, the gear will be no different. There should be some challenging content in this game and if the hardest dungeons in this game aren't truly challenging even at the minimum ilvl requirement, then something is wrong with them and they are too easy.
Then I will reserve any further judgment until I see your video of a legit eCC run without any OPs.
Or hardcore PTW BiS PvP'ers. I still have the unshakable belief that PvP should exist on its own private PvP-only server, with its own rules.
Weren't any p2w pvpers in that video and as I am a pve purist, I don't see who you would expect something like that from me.
Running with 2 Pallies who spam perma bubble, one GF with Knights Valor and HR spams fox cunning, then complaining about dungeon is too easy..... man, I'm speechless!
It's not the dungeons, it's the broken Pally daily. Without it you wouldn't successfully beat Traven!
1 pally that spams bubble, I am devotion not protection, I don't have bubble and secondly, in the fail video if you watch clearly the pally dies when traven has 66% hp and we take him down to 10% without bubble. If not for me stuffing up and making a mistake, we would have cleared with no failure and practically without a tank OP (hardest part is hexers, which he wasn't there for).
I found myself a decent gf again ( the one in the video) and so I intend to get a run with no pallies as well as a run with only 3 people, which I will also have videod.
I really would like to participate in that runs I can offer you my alt GF (Alexa uses same build as me) with 2.2k or my main char SW with like 2.8k if he's not too high in ilvl
Comments
But....lemme think...
After they brought us t3 dungeons with super tough bosses our casuality fraction is complaining again, because they cant get best items from t3 and they cant defeat any boss. Bet anyone?
I also made ECC and ETOS few times after the patch. And it was done with PUG's to made it potentially more challenging. It was way easier than before. But this is probably due to the fact that the bug is gone.
I remember when mob HP was increased. We hit the Enforcer (or whatever the elite mob in ECC is called) much longer than we should just to kill it. I'm sure many of players wouldn't call this a challenge...I would rather vote for making harder dungeons harder because of mob damage, attack speed etc. Making them a HP sponges is not the solution.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
What I don't understand is that at beta stage, there was no complains that game is too easy.
What changed?
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Module 5? Get nuff CWs for dungoens. No DC needed. No Tanks needed. Rushing from boss to boss. Dont care about trash. Every gimp with decent gear made dungeons like CN solo. Dumbest module ever. Now you need things like good gear, skill and a good grp play. Wow...what a surprise.
I'm saying about times before Sharandar when we had the game at it infancy.
We had a lot of dungeons, from easy ones like PK to the best and most challenging ones like CN or DV.
I can't remember any complains about the dungeons back there.
Maybe it's simply because there was a spot for anyone. Now we have only few available so no wonder people get mad.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
"people like OP" should've clued you in.
Also - outnumbered does not always mean ignored. End gamers, talking about difficulty, are always minority, pretty much by definition - yet still they are important part of most successful MMOs. You know whats one of the biggest complaint of GW2? Lack of endgame content - and thats what they dedicated the whole upcoming expansion for. Its even more important in F2P model MMOs, since gearing up comes with spending money, in many cases, because end-game is target people are incentivized to achieve - and why would you spend money if your current gear allows you to do everything? Devs tried to introduce end game in mod 6 but failed in several major aspects - the change was too rapid, it affected too many areas (should affect T2s and, to lesser extend, T1s only, for sure not leveling/campaign zones) and it brought absolutely no rewards. Apparently they got the lesson and are gradually changing that for good - however now end-game content is gone again.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
> now end-game content is gone again.
>
>
>
> Erm, Tiamat anyone? Isn't that still the most challenging content in the game? I've done a couple of runs since Mod 6 launch and we haven't gotten close to winning even once.
If you are in a Tiamat channel, tiamat is no challenge at all. And fyi: Tiamat is an encounter, not a content.
And tiamat is not a challenge if you got decent players in your instance. The challenge is to join in a instance without only fire campers. So: No challenge, just a matter of luck.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Well, make T4 dungeons and make sure that mobs has all stuff boosted 5x from T2,
then good reward will be "T4 Dungeoneering" -badge, just name because Real Endgamer dont need gear,
They run content because it is demanding, they run content lower gear than required, so they need just name and in that name what is their reward put also "Done this XX -times".
Now they can show their name and bolster how good they are, yes?!
What's the point in getting enchantments higher than r7s or 8s when you can already do all environments efficiently that way. There is no progression/end game. The dungeons are always the same, there is no randomization to make each run different enough so that is not another cookie cutter run.
As mentioned tiamat itself is not difficult at all. The difficulty lies in entering the right instance. When you have 25 coordinated players, tiamat is a cake walk.
Failed attempt:
Successful attempt:
(off-topic, about tiamat)
Well, about Tiamat, it was and still is - just lucky game to get team who can beat it. Tiamat is just RNG -encounter where players suffer, I did that fight few times after mod5.... I dont do that anymore, only challenge is jump in and out untill get good looking team.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured