LMAO... a perma telling a Wk what he is capable of? Sorry fatguns... I have not seen very many skilled perma TRs. Just because a players knows the rotations and can kill other players, does not mean they are skilled. When a person lives in a rut, they think it is perfect. That is until something comes to mess with that rut... then they get aggressive.
The truth is this. perma-stealth in PvP is going the way of the dodo.
i'm not a veteran TR player, mostly run a match on my MI exe TR ( for the oneshots ), but i have tried WK sabo/exe but not scouundereal all i can say is that it has dmg, but if you do 1mistake, just 1 you die. But the thing is, if you run an "untradicional" build let's say WK scoundereal and say that youre superior to other types of TRs bcs you 'have' brains to make the game harder for yourself. ( talkin to you both, kwessa and drkbodhi )
I have been playing THIS game for 5 months. I started theory-crafting the Rogue class in 2005 when I started playing WoW, I took that to LotRO and a few other games since... including NWO. Ask my NW TR mentor... sabre10... I have been picking his brain since I met him in March. That brain-picking sent me to rustlord, morenthar, lemonchill and kweassa. Our game is not harder, our game is more challenging, more rewarding and it challenges others.
We use our brains and our curiosity to devise a new path... because we are fed up with the options we are given. I, personally, have found incredible synergy, as rustlord said, by testing my build for HOURS on THOUSANDS of Many-Arrow Orcs in the preview server. I took suggestions that kweassa made and turned them into a thing of beauty. Funny thing is... while fighting mobs... I make mistakes... but because of this synergy... I do not die. I also keep my handy-dandy Priestess of Sune there by my side J.I.C. I know exactly how the mobs will react to my attacks... whether I am with a group or solo.
When I PvP that is a different story all together. As long as I am not Graped I will attack any other player, one on one. If the point is moot... I move on...or die. I have seen a lot of players run from me... one on one. That in itself, knowing my build, is a win. I have run through 5 geared players attacking me and survived... another win.
TBH... when I figure things out like this... the game is more enjoyable than when I was using someone else's build as a guide.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Based on his logic, the Instigator GWFs should consider Destroyer GWFs are skill-less.
Archery HR, LOL, "Trapper" are nub select cheese players.
And ofc, for SW, we all nubs.
Guess I should use Hellbringer temptation to prove I have PvP skill or not
If a SM/instigator GWF player can come across a cookie-cutter FotM IV/Destro GWF and actually beat him? If someone playing a mid-long range setup Archery can beat up a classic cookie-cutter Trapper?
Then yeah, sure, why not? If that doesn't deserve acknowledgement as being "more skilled", then what in the world does? Copying other people's builds?
Most of these people playing minority builds don't have any past precedents to copycat or immitate. They make it past uncharted waters, and go the extra distance and trouble of developing everything from scratch with their own hands... and by luck willing, if they actually succeed in performing as well as, or even better, than mass-produced clones running around, then is that not worthy of being recognized as "skill"?
Just look where trying to defend your cookie-cutter arses have brought you TRs down to. You can't even recognize what "skill" is now. Ouch, that gets my pity. *tsk*
...
Besides, you people are trying to deflect the issue. The point is that you people are clinging so dearly to this MI/Sabo method, just repeating that there aren't any alternatives. You're trying to portray to the public that you have no choice but to use that broken krap. You Sabos are so used to cutting corners and doing things the easy way, that you now consider anything that makes you get up your lazy arses and actually fight aggressively, as "unviable".
That's the problem here.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I never would say that WK is on par with MI. WK has a higher skill cap than MI. You need to be a reeeeaally good TR (Fotm or not) to do Whisperknife and not get trashed around like dirty loundry. So yes, "one mistake" is fatal. That stands true for every class.
Whisperknife is far from weak once you get up to a certain level of build and gear. The path can have combat advantage up all times, DF +piercing, up to 50% unresistable DR in buffs and debuffs without Negation. I can stealth any time at will without Shadow Strike. When you come to a point you can mitigate as much damage as to stay alive on a 60 seconds timer, you can pop Water Wheel and and be unkillable without permastealth. When other TRs have SE up every 30 seconds, I can chain 6 dodges every 10 seconds. What I can't do is one shot GWFs and SWs that have 0 chance of avoiding it, and I wouldn't feel right doing so.
right now i play a non stealth based tr. i will bull charge you, i will face you and i will do it against any class out there gwf gf op dc cw perma=stealth what ever.
This only proves that in fact you suck at pvp and because you get steamrolled all the time now you are coming here to complain. Rogue bull charging against any class = FAIL
I hope you realize that as a rogue, you can debuff and buff so much that someone hits you like a wet noodle while you slam their face into the ground...
right now i play a non stealth based tr. i will bull charge you, i will face you and i will do it against any class out there gwf gf op dc cw perma=stealth what ever.
This only proves that in fact you suck at pvp and because you get steamrolled all the time now you are coming here to complain. Rogue bull charging against any class = FAIL
thank you for sharing your idiocy with us!
mp need for insults. if you have no skill and you cant play non stealth based tr. its ok no one will hold that against you. k?
there is no more a true perma stealth, first thing. Abusive mechanic to its extreme, yes but no perma stealth. TR are more visible now than in mod 2-3 for sure.
The real thing is that tr lacks damage except the shockings. the real thing is that tr lacks a way to be able to restealth with fixed time ( of course one can argue about shadow strike, tenacious concilment but what about giving gwf determination lost upon damage taken and dealt and then give them a determination refill based on stamina consumed and a 1k base damage encounter called shadow-unstoppable?? )
well you got it, you dont want pseudo permas? give them all a way to restealth with fixed times regardless damage taken.
you want an always visible tr with stealth used just as a repositioning and not even defensive tool? give them damage comparable to gwf and gf. It needs to be a stack mechanism? go for it.
just go look at feats: everything procs if you are stealth and then stop working while out of it. gwf? stack while in unstoppable, enjoy tons of free damage out of it. And yee its tons of damage when a lostmauth proc starts to be 20k before mitigation.
same valid for hrs. you want no dazes? give comparable tools to survive and 250% damage boost to combat ( 150% to other trees ).
i m not afraid to say tr is the worst designed class in game followed by sws and hrs.
This only proves that in fact you suck at pvp and because you get steamrolled all the time now you are coming here to complain. Rogue bull charging against any class = FAIL
thank you for sharing your idiocy with us!
It's only FAIL when you don't know how to do it properly -- which, by the nuance of your comments, seems to be your case as well. Of course, the game does provide this wonderful and perfect "TR for DUMMIES" setup with that MI/Sabo/SO+LostM+CoS/SE spamming, so its more or less understandable on why players are passive and lazy.
Don't worry, though. Once the broken chit is grinded out of the game, everyone will get a chance to relearn how to play the TR the hard way.
Like, what's gonna happen when TRs are faced with the following question:
"What happens if my one-button CoS spamming doesn't do much damage at all, and powers like SE or LA receives long recharge time so I can't spam it at all... and I have to fight a GWF or a GF or any opponent that's got a good chance of fighting back and retaliating?"
Eventually, you will all adapt to it. *snicker*
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This only proves that in fact you suck at pvp and because you get steamrolled all the time now you are coming here to complain. Rogue bull charging against any class = FAIL
thank you for sharing your idiocy with us!
It's only FAIL when you don't know how to do it properly -- which, by the nuance of your comments, seems to be your case as well. Of course, the game does provide this wonderful and perfect "TR for DUMMIES" setup with that MI/Sabo/SO+LostM+CoS/SE spamming, so its more or less understandable on why players are passive and lazy.
Don't worry, though. Once the broken chit is grinded out of the game, everyone will get a chance to relearn how to play the TR the hard way.
Like, what's gonna happen when TRs are faced with the following question:
"What happens if my one-button CoS spamming doesn't do much damage at all, and powers like SE or LA receives long recharge time so I can't spam it at all... and I have to fight a GWF or a GF or any opponent that's got a good chance of fighting back and retaliating?"
Eventually, you will all adapt to it. *snicker*
Well then, let 'em pugs run around clueless with a WK/scoundereal "skillfull" build, knowing HAMSTER how to play and get steamrolled by premades, pretty fun for those guys eh?
I never saw a gwf player suggest other gwf focks use Sentinel, and called destroyer skill-less Or Archery HR and all other trappers.
Like said, again, if there's a Sentinel or Instigator GWF player that still persists despite its limitations and does reasonably well in PvP, then you can bet your arsh that guy is at least twice as more skilled than any cookie-cutter IV/Destro.
The only reason nobody says that is because there isn't anyone left to say it, because the Sentis and Instis are so far behind and lacking, unlike how Exec and Sabo TRs handle reasonably well, despite not relying on bullchit krap the Sabos throw around.
The old Int-TR builds with heavy/extended stealth and CoS puckering, is where the current FotM Sabo build should be. With the godawful AP-gain items and mounts, there's every reason to nerf SE to the ground.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
Well... TBH...I have seen more SoD and Concussive Strikes procs, on me, than I have heard the SE "ding ding dings"... lately. The writing is on the wall and some people are believing it. Based on my "deep-end of the pool" experiences... out of 6 TRs, 1 will be Sabo, 2 will be Scoundrel and 3 will be Exec. Sometimes those numbers will be 3 Scoundrel and 2 Execs... so it is closer to 1/2.5/2.5.
Believe it or not.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Every BiS TR and their mother I've had the pleasure to rekt in dom is a sabo, except two maybe three. But maybe its different in GG. I dunno.
I'm not hugely surprised. In purely subjective terms Dom is all but barren now having only come across BiS parties each time the queue popped for me. The times that I've queued for GG PvP, I've found a spread of TR paths with surprisingly few using SE. That said yesterday I was being repeatedly harassed by one near BiS who was using it as his go to move. Irritating beyond words! That said, I don't think "nerfing it to the ground" is the answer. It can't in anyway shape or form remain as it is in it's current incarnation, but careful, considered balancing should be the way forward. This should be possible given the amount of time the company have had to carefully consider. The same should apply to the Sab path.
Probably a way to fix it: REMOVE the 100% Crit from Stealth- it should Not guarantee. FREE 100%crit and Piercing damage is way too much- for a single class.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
Probably a way to fix it: REMOVE the 100% Crit from Stealth- it should Not guarantee. FREE 100%crit and Piercing damage is way too much- for a single class.
that was compensation for stealth depletion.
what i would like to see its double critical chance and increased critical severity by 30% for the next 10 seconds AFTER leaving stealth. it would benefits all trees, especially the under performing ones and probably would benefit all pve trs.
Probably a way to fix it: REMOVE the 100% Crit from Stealth- it should Not guarantee. FREE 100%crit and Piercing damage is way too much- for a single class.
that was compensation for stealth depletion.
what i would like to see its double critical chance and increased critical severity by 30% for the next 10 seconds AFTER leaving stealth. it would benefits all trees, especially the under performing ones and probably would benefit all pve trs.
Oh gawd yes! My paingiver charts had seen better days! All "muh dps" is on those damned autocrits and believe me when I cry, that's just so bad in PvE. Give me back my Stealth DF in dungeons please!
Probably a way to fix it: REMOVE the 100% Crit from Stealth- it should Not guarantee. FREE 100%crit and Piercing damage is way too much- for a single class.
that was compensation for stealth depletion.
what i would like to see its double critical chance and increased critical severity by 30% for the next 10 seconds AFTER leaving stealth. it would benefits all trees, especially the under performing ones and probably would benefit all pve trs.
Oh gawd yes! My paingiver charts had seen better days! All "muh dps" is on those damned autocrits and believe me when I cry, that's just so bad in PvE. Give me back my Stealth DF in dungeons please!
it would become my favourite class by far, while losing 100% crit in every stealth situation and adding more pve damage. more important it would incentivate playing outside stealth. right now you either are in stealth or dont have any feat actived...its a so badly designed feature. it would even fix stealthed duelist flurry....maaan i should be payed
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
That would be interesting... I have the Feat where I do more damage when my stealth is not full... then I get stealth and pop. In PvE, I do fairly well with the control and the extra 25% damage to CC'd mobs. In fact I do much better now than I did when I was a Wk Sab.
I know it may not be much to some, but I did 75 million in Paingiver #2 to sabre10, in ToS. The previous time I ran it I was Wk Sab... and I did a little bit less than 50 million. So I see that there is viability.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Comments
I have been playing THIS game for 5 months. I started theory-crafting the Rogue class in 2005 when I started playing WoW, I took that to LotRO and a few other games since... including NWO. Ask my NW TR mentor... sabre10... I have been picking his brain since I met him in March. That brain-picking sent me to rustlord, morenthar, lemonchill and kweassa. Our game is not harder, our game is more challenging, more rewarding and it challenges others.
We use our brains and our curiosity to devise a new path... because we are fed up with the options we are given. I, personally, have found incredible synergy, as rustlord said, by testing my build for HOURS on THOUSANDS of Many-Arrow Orcs in the preview server. I took suggestions that kweassa made and turned them into a thing of beauty. Funny thing is... while fighting mobs... I make mistakes... but because of this synergy... I do not die. I also keep my handy-dandy Priestess of Sune there by my side J.I.C. I know exactly how the mobs will react to my attacks... whether I am with a group or solo.
When I PvP that is a different story all together. As long as I am not Graped I will attack any other player, one on one. If the point is moot... I move on...or die. I have seen a lot of players run from me... one on one. That in itself, knowing my build, is a win. I have run through 5 geared players attacking me and survived... another win.
TBH... when I figure things out like this... the game is more enjoyable than when I was using someone else's build as a guide.
If a SM/instigator GWF player can come across a cookie-cutter FotM IV/Destro GWF and actually beat him? If someone playing a mid-long range setup Archery can beat up a classic cookie-cutter Trapper?
Then yeah, sure, why not? If that doesn't deserve acknowledgement as being "more skilled", then what in the world does? Copying other people's builds?
Most of these people playing minority builds don't have any past precedents to copycat or immitate. They make it past uncharted waters, and go the extra distance and trouble of developing everything from scratch with their own hands... and by luck willing, if they actually succeed in performing as well as, or even better, than mass-produced clones running around, then is that not worthy of being recognized as "skill"?
Just look where trying to defend your cookie-cutter arses have brought you TRs down to. You can't even recognize what "skill" is now. Ouch, that gets my pity. *tsk*
...
Besides, you people are trying to deflect the issue. The point is that you people are clinging so dearly to this MI/Sabo method, just repeating that there aren't any alternatives. You're trying to portray to the public that you have no choice but to use that broken krap. You Sabos are so used to cutting corners and doing things the easy way, that you now consider anything that makes you get up your lazy arses and actually fight aggressively, as "unviable".
That's the problem here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I never would say that WK is on par with MI. WK has a higher skill cap than MI. You need to be a reeeeaally good TR (Fotm or not) to do Whisperknife and not get trashed around like dirty loundry. So yes, "one mistake" is fatal. That stands true for every class.
Whisperknife is far from weak once you get up to a certain level of build and gear. The path can have combat advantage up all times, DF +piercing, up to 50% unresistable DR in buffs and debuffs without Negation. I can stealth any time at will without Shadow Strike. When you come to a point you can mitigate as much damage as to stay alive on a 60 seconds timer, you can pop Water Wheel and and be unkillable without permastealth. When other TRs have SE up every 30 seconds, I can chain 6 dodges every 10 seconds. What I can't do is one shot GWFs and SWs that have 0 chance of avoiding it, and I wouldn't feel right doing so.
right now i play a non stealth based tr. i will bull charge you, i will face you and i will do it against any class out there gwf gf op dc cw perma=stealth what ever.
This only proves that in fact you suck at pvp and because you get steamrolled all the time now you are coming here to complain.
Rogue bull charging against any class = FAIL
thank you for sharing your idiocy with us!
no lets move on pls...
The real thing is that tr lacks damage except the shockings.
the real thing is that tr lacks a way to be able to restealth with fixed time ( of course one can argue about shadow strike, tenacious concilment but what about giving gwf determination lost upon damage taken and dealt and then give them a determination refill based on stamina consumed and a 1k base damage encounter called shadow-unstoppable?? )
well you got it, you dont want pseudo permas? give them all a way to restealth with fixed times regardless damage taken.
you want an always visible tr with stealth used just as a repositioning and not even defensive tool? give them damage comparable to gwf and gf. It needs to be a stack mechanism? go for it.
just go look at feats: everything procs if you are stealth and then stop working while out of it. gwf? stack while in unstoppable, enjoy tons of free damage out of it. And yee its tons of damage when a lostmauth proc starts to be 20k before mitigation.
same valid for hrs. you want no dazes? give comparable tools to survive and 250% damage boost to combat ( 150% to other trees ).
i m not afraid to say tr is the worst designed class in game followed by sws and hrs.
Don't worry, though. Once the broken chit is grinded out of the game, everyone will get a chance to relearn how to play the TR the hard way.
Like, what's gonna happen when TRs are faced with the following question:
"What happens if my one-button CoS spamming doesn't do much damage at all, and powers like SE or LA receives long recharge time so I can't spam it at all... and I have to fight a GWF or a GF or any opponent that's got a good chance of fighting back and retaliating?"
Eventually, you will all adapt to it. *snicker*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The only reason nobody says that is because there isn't anyone left to say it, because the Sentis and Instis are so far behind and lacking, unlike how Exec and Sabo TRs handle reasonably well, despite not relying on bullchit krap the Sabos throw around.
The old Int-TR builds with heavy/extended stealth and CoS puckering, is where the current FotM Sabo build should be. With the godawful AP-gain items and mounts, there's every reason to nerf SE to the ground.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Believe it or not.
The times that I've queued for GG PvP, I've found a spread of TR paths with surprisingly few using SE. That said yesterday I was being repeatedly harassed by one near BiS who was using it as his go to move.
Irritating beyond words!
That said, I don't think "nerfing it to the ground" is the answer. It can't in anyway shape or form remain as it is in it's current incarnation, but careful, considered balancing should be the way forward.
This should be possible given the amount of time the company have had to carefully consider.
The same should apply to the Sab path.
REMOVE the 100% Crit from Stealth- it should Not guarantee.
FREE 100%crit and Piercing damage is way too much- for a single class.
what i would like to see its double critical chance and increased critical severity by 30% for the next 10 seconds AFTER leaving stealth.
it would benefits all trees, especially the under performing ones and probably would benefit all pve trs.
more important it would incentivate playing outside stealth.
right now you either are in stealth or dont have any feat actived...its a so badly designed feature.
it would even fix stealthed duelist flurry....maaan i should be payed
I know it may not be much to some, but I did 75 million in Paingiver #2 to sabre10, in ToS. The previous time I ran it I was Wk Sab... and I did a little bit less than 50 million. So I see that there is viability.